An Alchemist is able to brew a potion as per the Brew Potion bonus feat of any 1st to 3rd level spell he/she knows and is able to 'cast' (from within the potion spell list or as allowed by DM) as with any of the Craft Magic Item feats.
An Alchemist(with no additional spell casting multi-class)is only provided with 2 extracts(+any provided by INT bonus)at 1st level within his/her formula book and new extract formula from his formula class list after research and upon reaching a new XP level and nothing else.
So an Alchemist at 1st level has the ability to Brew a Potion(Potion not Extract)but can't because he/she doesn't know any recipes/spells for them.
Where do the spells/recipes for brewing a potion as per the bonus feat come from? In the case of a Single Class Alchemist or a Multi-Class Alchemist without a spell casting 2nd class this is an unusable feat unless there is another source of spell knowledge/recipes.
Are these spells/recipes able to be obtained as an Alchemist could obtain extract formula from studying a wizard spell book or a scroll?
as per APG;
"An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements.
"An alchemist can study a wizard’s spellbook to learn any
formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains."
Does 'formula' specifically mean extract formula or does it mean formula in a broader sense to include both potions and extracts?
Upon succesfully learning a 1st to 3rd level spell(without a focus or divine focus component) from a spellbook or scroll after the required spellcraft checks(but leaving out the decipher writing bit cuz "An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.") etc. and adding it to his/her formula book the Alchemist can now brew a potion of that spell(provided it is on the potion spell list and he/she is able to cast it and it doesn't require a focus or divine focus component).
Have I got that right? Am I missing somthing? or is somthing just missing?
Could an Alchemist reverse-engineer a potion(a potion mind as per brew potion bonus feat not an extract)?
An alchemist can identify a potion as per the following excerpt from APG; "an alchemist can use Craft (alchemy) to identify potions as if
using detect magic. He must hold the potion for 1 round to
make such a check."
depending on your take this could either be;
(a) the alchemist studying the potion using his Craft Alchemy skill, swirling it around in its vial, holding it up to the light, perhaps smelling the potion or even placing a drop on his tongue(eew!) and using his/her experience, skill and knowledge to deduce the contents of the vial
or
(b) the alchemist is extending the magical aura that allows him to create extracts and bombs as a wizard casts spells and using it to identify the potion within his/her hand as if per Detect Magic
the Detect Magic spell itself does allow the following; "If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties" after the 3rd round of focus/study
so if an Alchemist obtains an actual potion thru an NPC vendor or in some loot that he/she does not currently have the recipe(does not have the spell)for in his formula book can he/she commit further study/hold the potion longer and deduce the recipe? or perhaps using his Alchemy Kit and Craft Alchemy skill break the potion down into identifiable components?
If so, how? By way of a Skill Check or by way of Identify as per Detect Magic?
I also have questions about Mundane Alchemical Items and Poisons but I will leave those for another time as I realize this is already extremely long winded.
So an Alchemist at 1st level has the ability to Brew a Potion(Potion not Extract)but can't because he/she doesn't know any recipes/spells for them.
The alchemist can brew the potion for any formulae that is potion legal that they know (they know= in their spellbook). If you reach a different conclusion from raw stop overthinking it.
Potion legal spells they might know include Comprehend Languages
Crafter's Fortune, Cure Light Wounds,Endure Elements, Enlarge Person , Jump, Keen Senses,Negate Aroma,Polypurpose Panacea, Reduce Person , Touch of the Sea, Vocal Alteration, Youthful Appearance
Where do the spells/recipes for brewing a potion as per the bonus feat come from?
The alchemists spellbook, which is called a formulae book.
In the case of a Single Class Alchemist or a Multi-Class Alchemist without a spell casting 2nd class this is an unusable feat unless there is another source of spell knowledge/recipes.
The brew potion ability specifically allows the alchemist to brew potions despite their technical lack of spell-casting ability.
At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Does 'formula' specifically mean extract formula or does it mean formula in a broader sense to include both potions and extracts?
For the alchemist they're the same thing. If the extract they know is potion legal (ie, its not truestrike) they can make it into a potion.
so if an Alchemist obtains an actual potion thru an NPC vendor or in some loot that he/she does not currently have the recipe(does not have the spell)for in his formula book can he/she commit further study/hold the potion longer and deduce the recipe? or perhaps using his Alchemy Kit and Craft Alchemy skill break the potion down into identifiable components?
By the raw, no. But it would be very thematic and not remotely overpowered to let them do so.
I was trying to point out what I saw as a disconnect.....perhaps in a far too wordy manner....wanted to show that I had done the reading..hoped I understood what I was reading..and still saw what i thought was a hole....and was also presenting an alternative method for obtaining spells/recipes other than a wizard's spellbook or a scroll for opinion/ruling.
Thank you for attempting to tackle my LARGE post and answering my questions and also for your opinion on my alternative.
So an Alchemist can't brew any potions before learning/adding the 'legal' spells to his formula book...which renders the 1st lvl Bonus Feat unusable until such time as he is able to learn/add the spells....unless the extracts he/she already gains thru Alchemist Research/Level Advancement happens to also be on the potion spell list for Brew Potion?
...and the retro-engineering a potion to add the potion spell to his Formula Book just struck me as an Alchemist version of a Wizard adding a spell from a scroll to his spellbook(even though a Alchemist can already do that too).
What about mundane alchemical items? The Alchemist is supposedly a master of these items, does a 1st level Alchemist automatically start with the knowledge to create any listed mundane alchemical item? What are the mechanics for the construction of these items? Limit per day as per Magic Item Creation? Skill Check? Creation Cost?
i.e My Alchemist wants to make 100 sunrods, 50 tanglefoot bags and 50 doses of Bloodblock...how long will that take? What is involved in the creation and how much will it cost?
What about poisons? Is an Alchemist able to craft poisons without obtaining additonal skills like Craft:Poison? Same mechanics questions as for Mundane Alchemical Items above.
So an Alchemist can't brew any potions before learning/adding the 'legal' spells to his formula book...which renders the 1st lvl Bonus Feat unusable until such time as he is able to learn/add the spells
But you can get usable spells at first level.
An alchemist begins play with two 1st-level formulae of his choice, plus a number of additional forumlae equal to his Intelligence modifier.
My first level Alchemist Quercus has a 17 intelligence (+3)the following spells
Cure light wounds
True strike
Enlarge person
Change self
Expeditious retreat
At first level these are in my formulae book. I can make a potion of cure light wounds or enlarge person. The only way the feat wouldn't be usable is if you somehow managed to take all self only spells.
What about mundane alchemical items? The Alchemist is supposedly a master of these items, does a 1st level Alchemist automatically start with the knowledge to create any listed mundane alchemical item? What are the mechanics for the construction of these items? Limit per day as per Magic Item Creation? Skill Check? Creation Cost?
The rules for making them are under craft alchemy in the skill section. The alchemist needs at least 1 rank in the craft alchemy skill to make them. There's no recipee for the alchemical items any more than there are recipes for greatswords, longswords, or daggers.
it looks like I am tripping myself up over a wrongly assumed difference between extracts and potions(that appears not to exist outside of my head)I assumed that the formulae list for an alchemist was ONLY for extracts and not for potions for some unexplainable and stupid reason.
thank you for finally getting thru to me and for the Mundane Crafting answer that is a big big help.
What about poisons, do most people play those as a part of alchemy or a seperate craft skill?
no problem. We've all been there.
Poisons are made with craft alchemy. Their craft DC is equal to the DC of the poisons effect. They are however very expensive and thus under the crafting rules can take WEEKS to make. ALchemists can speed that up a bit by being alchemists, and there's a feat that lets you make all alchemical items (including poisons) 10 times quicker. However, even if you're making your own they're rather expensive and hard to get to work.
my Dm and I have been have some discussion over Alchemists and learning new formulae
can an alchemist learn a new extract from a scroll as well as from a wizard's spellbook?
can an alchemist learn a new extract formulae from a spellbook or scroll that is not on the list of formulae?
for example;
a 7th level alchemist(with Infusion discovery) obtains a scroll for the 7th level Cleric Spell 'Resurection' and wishes to add it to his fomulae book but 'Resurection' does not appear on the Formulae List.
I'd say learning a formula from a Wizard scroll would be perfectly acceptable. But an Alchemist can't just add spells to his formula list (this is true for every caster class, barring specific abilities), and even if he could a 7th level spell would be out of his reach entirely (as alchemist extracts only go up to level 6). A 7th level cleric spell wouldn't even be able to be used by a cleric until level 13 anyways.
can an alchemist learn a new extract from a scroll as well as from a wizard's spellbook?
An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements.
If it works just like a wizard doing it, and a wizard can do it from scrolls, then the alchemist can do it from scrolls.
can an alchemist learn a new extract formulae from a spellbook or scroll that is not on the list of formulae?
No. Biiiiiiiig no. If that were possible there would be no point of a class spell list.
see thats what we thought too but the fact that the following was included confused me;
"Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement)."
why include that if only spells available on list could be selected in the first place?
Air Walk is on the alchemist list, usually requires a DF. I'm sure there's others.
Analyze Dweomer has an expensive focus requirement.
see thats what we thought too but the fact that the following was included confused me;
"Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement)."why include that if only spells available on list could be selected in the first place?
I think they were originally going to have the alchemists able to cast the entire wizard list.
Some of the spells the alchemist casts ARE divine, like cure light wounds
see thats what we thought too but the fact that the following was included confused me;
"Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement)."why include that if only spells available on list could be selected in the first place?
I think they were originally going to have the alchemists able to cast the entire wizard list.
Some of the spells the alchemist casts ARE divine, like cure light wounds
I wanted to bring this up again, after playing an alchemist it has struck me that alchemists are the WORST possible alchemists! Even sorcerors would be better potion makers, as they can select their spells from the entire arcane list, alchemists are limited to a very short, very limited list of spells they can make into potions. Has there been any significant expansion of the alchemist 1st and 2nd level formula lists? They are limited to just 2 schools of magic (plus CLW); they should have at least one other. Not only that, but their slow advancement on the spell level makes them just as slow to make 2nd or 3rd level spells into potions.
Alchemists aren't great potion makers, no. However, with their alchemical allocation spell and potion discoveries, they are great potion USERS.
And apart from that, there's more to alchemy than potions.
Yes, there is a lot more, but it seems a serious weakness for the alchemist class to be the worst potion makers, especially as that could be a significant personal benefit.
They are only poor potion makers in the sense they are limited spellcasters. I don't alchemists should have full spell lists, that would break them too far out of their concept and power level.
No, it wouldn't.
And I still don't get why Alchemists don't get 0-level extracts. There's plenty of spells at that level which would work fine as extracts.
No, it wouldn't.
And I still don't get why Alchemists don't get 0-level extracts. There's plenty of spells at that level which would work fine as extracts.
Yes it would. :P So Nyah!
With you on 0-level spells though. Don't know what those got left out.
alchy dont 'cast' so cantrips doesnt make sense themtaically. mechanically no idear.
as far as 'worst potion makers' only one other class gets access to potion making at 1st level.
iirc most of their extracts they can make as a potion, for others to use, and so become potentially one of the best buffers out there.
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alchy dont 'cast' so cantrips doesnt make sense themtaically. mechanically no idear.
as far as 'worst potion makers' only one other class gets access to potion making at 1st level.
iirc most of their extracts they can make as a potion, for others to use, and so become potentially one of the best buffers out there.
True, if that's all you want to do, my original point was that they have a very limited formula list, which severely limits their versatility as potion makers. Its also easier to use the infusion discovery and just hand others your extracts, though the # per day is very limited.
I admit, if you look at it a certain way, alchy is a very self focused character. melee-ish or ranged...
Why does alchemists not "casting" matter for not giving them cantrips? What makes 0-level spells more "magical" than 1st-9th (or 1st-6th, I guess) level spells, which they DO get?
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so if an Alchemist obtains an actual potion thru an NPC vendor or in some loot that he/she does not currently have the recipe(does not have the spell)for in his formula book can he/she commit further study/hold the potion longer and deduce the recipe? or perhaps using his Alchemy Kit and Craft Alchemy skill break the potion down into identifiable components?
No, there is a specific magic item called the Formula Alembic that lets you do this.
Price 200 gp; Aura faint divination; CL 3rd; Weight 2 lbs.
This magically-augmented alchemical device distills a potion or alchemist extract into the knowledge needed to create its formula. By gently heating a potion or extract in the alembic for 1 hour, the device creates a few drops of magical liquid. If consumed by an alchemist, this liquid gives him knowledge of the potion's or extract's formula, as if it were an extract he recorded in his formula book. This knowledge lasts for 24 hours. He may scribe this formula in his formula book in the normal fashion.
Using the alembic does not harm the potion, but the process makes it nearly boiling hot (it cools normally). The alembic can only distill the knowledge of formulas on the alchemist extract list (for example, it cannot turn a potion of a cleric-only spell into something an alchemist can learn).
Construction Requirements
Cost 100 gp
Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, identify, creator must be an alchemist
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Just ran across this making my first alchemist, and this is the only post I see that covers the subject. (that I can find)
as far as I have read, and some GM's differ on the ruling. But most don't allow you to identify a magic item unless you have detect magic up.
So at first level alchemists can get the spell identify to give them a bonus to their spellcraft check to identify a magic item. Which they cannot do, because they can't make an extract to give detect magic.
I feel something is missed here, unless they seriously think that waiting and wasting a much higher arcane sight is more probable than allowing a few 0th level cantrips to make their way into the formula lists.
has this been pointed out or covered anywhere else, and I am missing it?
Honestly I am sure a GM can approve of adding detect magic to the 1st level list in a homespun game. But it woulod be nice to get an official reasoning behind the 0th level spells that would make total sense for being added to the formula list.
just my 10 cents.
;-) Thanks
Identify allows you to identify magic items using spellcraft. Read the spell.
How the "f" did I miss that?
Identify serves as the detect magic. If you cast identify (or use an extract) you don't need a separate detect magic.
From the spell:
This spell functions as detect magic,
If it makes you feel better, I didn't notice that clerics get a second domain until level 5.
On my 3rd cleric.