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So. Spirit Guide Oracles get Hexes as a class feature by the channel is channel is channel rule. They gain hexes from their wandering spirit's list.
Extra Hex specifies that if you are a shaman, you cannot gain extra hexes from your wandering spirit.
I've heard the argument that because the Oracle treats their Oracle level as a Shaman level for their hexes, that this disqualifies them from the benefits of this feat as there no non-wandering spirit hexes on their list.
Spirit Talker, on the other hand, requires Shaman level 6 and does allow for a hex from a wandering spirit.
So my personal inclination is to let an Oracle take Spirit Talker, treating her Oracle levels as Shaman levels. RP-wise it's more thematic and makes more sense. The point of the Spirit Guide seems very much to be to talk to spirits, which Spirit Talker allows you to talk to another one.
But honestly from a mechanics viewpoint it seems more reasonable that an Oracle would simply qualify for Extra Hex, and just take an additional Hex from her wandering spirit list. Oracles are Shamans for Hex effects, but I'm not convinced on the argument that a feat is a Hex effect.
Ultimately the rationale to exclude one seems it should enable the other. I didn't see anything on the ACG FAQ. Has there been an official response?
The Spirit Guide Oracle does not get the Hex class feature. They get the Bonded Spirit class feature, and it gives them only one hex.
Both Extra Hex and Spirit Talker require the Hex class feature, so are not available.
The channel is channel rule (please link) should not apply, since the oracle only gets a single hex, not several over levels. The Bonded Spirit class feature does so much else, like spells known, that it is no way even close to a Hex class feature.
/cevah
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The Spirit Guide Oracle does not get the Hex class feature. They get the Bonded Spirit class feature, and it gives them only one hex.
Both Extra Hex and Spirit Talker require the Hex class feature, so are not available.
The channel is channel rule (please link) should not apply, since the oracle only gets a single hex, not several over levels. The Bonded Spirit class feature does so much else, like spells known, that it is no way even close to a Hex class feature.
/cevah
Channel is channel is channel. It doesn't matter specifically what the name of the feature is, nor how deeply it's nested in other class features. What matters is are you functionally given a channel as a class feature.
Technically Oracles get a Mystery class feature, which contains a Revelation class feature, which may contain a Channel class feature, which may not be identical to Cleric Channel Energy, but those differences only matter if you're specifically trying to read things from an exclusionary and contrarian point of view.
They get Channel as a class feature so they can take Channel feats.
Even the fact the feature is contained in a larger feature doesn't matter, nor is it being a limited resource. Rage domain Clerics get Rage. It's a daily limited resource and encapsulated in a class feature that does other things (domains). Even the fact that the rules are different for the particular feature doesn't matter. Animal Companions can have drastically different rules from class to class and archetype to archetype, but they're all animal companions. Even the class feature restriction itself can be a grey area as Boon companion is intended to be compatible with Animal Ally.
Spirit Guide Oracles get hexes as a class feature. Heck, they can also get Channel from the Life spirit, so the rule comes full circle. The question is the details of how they qualify or are affected by particular feats that are written with caveats of ambiguous meaning RAI.
Thanks for the link.
The witch class feature gives one hex for every N levels. So does the Shaman. The spirit guide only gives a single hex.
The witch hex class feature only gives hexes. The shaman hex class feature only gives hexes.
The spirit guide has a class feature that gives a single hex and a bunch of other non-hex stuff. I don't think, as a class feature, it is equivalent to the witch or shaman class feature. Yes, the hex works the same way, but the spirit guide never gets another hex from the feature no matter how many levels are taken, unlike the other classes.
This is why I don't think it is equivalent.
/cevah
Thanks for the link.
The witch class feature gives one hex for every N levels. So does the Shaman. The spirit guide only gives a single hex.
The witch hex class feature only gives hexes. The shaman hex class feature only gives hexes.
The spirit guide has a class feature that gives a single hex and a bunch of other non-hex stuff. I don't think, as a class feature, it is equivalent to the witch or shaman class feature. Yes, the hex works the same way, but the spirit guide never gets another hex from the feature no matter how many levels are taken, unlike the other classes.
This is why I don't think it is equivalent.
/cevah
This is like saying that the Dragoon Fighter does not have Weapon Training
This is like saying that the Dragoon Fighter does not have Weapon TrainingThanks for the link.
The witch class feature gives one hex for every N levels. So does the Shaman. The spirit guide only gives a single hex.
The witch hex class feature only gives hexes. The shaman hex class feature only gives hexes.
The spirit guide has a class feature that gives a single hex and a bunch of other non-hex stuff. I don't think, as a class feature, it is equivalent to the witch or shaman class feature. Yes, the hex works the same way, but the spirit guide never gets another hex from the feature no matter how many levels are taken, unlike the other classes.
This is why I don't think it is equivalent.
/cevah
The Dragoon Fighter has Spear Training. It gives a weapon group, just like weapon training. It advances every few levels just like weapon training.
There is a FAQ on this:
If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.
It then goes on to show how Spear Training is Weapon Training.
Bonded Spirit does not work like Hex.
Bonded Spirit does not mandate a specific choice of Hex.
Bonded Spirit gives a bunch of stuff, which happen to include a single hex.
Bonded Spirit is therefore not the Hex class feature.
Since the Extra Hex feat requires you have the class feature, not just a hex, you cannot use Bonded Spirit to get it.
/cevah
This is like saying that the Dragoon Fighter does not have Weapon TrainingThanks for the link.
The witch class feature gives one hex for every N levels. So does the Shaman. The spirit guide only gives a single hex.
The witch hex class feature only gives hexes. The shaman hex class feature only gives hexes.
The spirit guide has a class feature that gives a single hex and a bunch of other non-hex stuff. I don't think, as a class feature, it is equivalent to the witch or shaman class feature. Yes, the hex works the same way, but the spirit guide never gets another hex from the feature no matter how many levels are taken, unlike the other classes.
This is why I don't think it is equivalent.
/cevah
The Dragoon Fighter has Spear Training. It gives a weapon group, just like weapon training. It advances every few levels just like weapon training.
There is a FAQ on this:
If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.It then goes on to show how Spear Training is Weapon Training.
Bonded Spirit does not work like Hex.
Bonded Spirit does not mandate a specific choice of Hex.
Bonded Spirit gives a bunch of stuff, which happen to include a single hex.
Bonded Spirit is therefore not the Hex class feature.Since the Extra Hex feat requires you have the class feature, not just a hex, you cannot use Bonded Spirit to get it.
/cevah
You're not wrong, assuming that FAQ works like that. It could under some readings, but I generally avoid quoting it because it causes interpretation problems of its own.
It specifically says the Dragoon Fighter gets weapon training for reasons, and that the Archer Fighter does not for different reasons. But what about the Unarmed Fighter? Their rationale for excluding the Archer should mean the Unarmed Fighter doesn't get weapon training. It trades multiple things for weapon training and does not refer to his weapon training bonus. Their rationale for including the Dragoon Fighter means it does get weapon training. Hell it's even called weapon training in the archetype.
So that particular FAQ manages to be arbitrary and self-contradicting even within the one class it pulls its examples from. But the real problem with it is it's explicitely talking about limitations with trading away base class features with an archetype, not gaining new features from other classes with an archetype. These are not equivalent scenarios. Archetypes lack the verbosity of base classes, and when they gain features, they often don't have the language you seem to be looking for.
Take the Spirit Whisperer Wizard. It gets hexes as a class feature too. It ultimately gains access to fewer hexes than the Spirit Guide Oracle, but it has the benefit of having up to 3 at a time. By your reasoning should the Spirit Whisperer qualify for Extra Hex? This ultimately is the other problem with using the FAQ you quoted this way. It encourages trying to judge the trade the archetype made as if we were bartering.
Does an Oracle get Hexes? Yes. Then they have Hexes. Did they get it through a class feature? Yes. Then they have Hexes through a class feature. You're not arguing that Life Link or Erosion Curse aren't Hexes, or that a Spirit Guide Oracle can't take them (albeit one at a time). You're trying to argue that they didn't get enough of the feature to qualify, by the same contrarian logic that tries to argue that their channel isn't good enough for channel feats because it has a different name and different limitations.
You're not wrong, assuming that FAQ works like that. It could under some readings, but I generally avoid quoting it because it causes interpretation problems of its own.
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So that particular FAQ manages to be arbitrary and self-contradicting even within the one class it pulls its examples from. But the real problem with it is it's explicitely talking about limitations with trading away base class features with an archetype, not gaining new features from other classes with an archetype. These are not equivalent scenarios. Archetypes lack the verbosity of base classes, and when they gain features, they often don't have the language you seem to be looking for.
The FAQ does not care about trading class features. It is about if one class feature is the same as another irrespective of name.
Take the Spirit Whisperer Wizard. It gets hexes as a class feature too. It ultimately gains access to fewer hexes than the Spirit Guide Oracle, but it has the benefit of having up to 3 at a time. By your reasoning should the Spirit Whisperer qualify for Extra Hex? This ultimately is the other problem with using the FAQ you quoted this way. It encourages trying to judge the trade the archetype made as if we were bartering.
Since the Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex, the Spirit Whisperer Wizard actually gets more hexes, not fewer. Not sure why you think the Spirit Guide gets additional hexes.
The Spirit Hex class feature grants a hex every so many levels. That is all it does. Therefore, by the FAQ, it is equivalent to the Hex class feature, and Extra Hex is available.
Does an Oracle get Hexes? Yes. Then they have Hexes. Did they get it through a class feature? Yes. Then they have Hexes through a class feature. You're not arguing that Life Link or Erosion Curse aren't Hexes, or that a Spirit Guide Oracle can't take them (albeit one at a time). You're trying to argue that they didn't get enough of the feature to qualify, by the same contrarian logic that tries to argue that their channel isn't good enough for channel feats because it has a different name and different limitations.
A Bonded Spirit gets a bond with a spirit.
A Bonded Spirit gets a single hex.A Bonded Spirit gets additional spells known starting at 4th.
A Bonded Spirit gets a spirit ability at 7th.
A Bonded Spirit gets a greater spirit ability at 15th.
If the Bonded Spirit class feature is equivalent to the Hex class feature, then everything in the Bonded Spirit has a similar thing in the Hex class feature.
It does not.
That equivalency must go both ways. If A is equal to B, then B must also be equal to A. Hex does not get me a spirit, spells known, or any kind of spirit ability.
Perhaps you should think of a hex as a named spell. Spells are a common class feature, but having a spell on one list does not mean it is on every other list of those who have spells.
/cevah
usaly id say that 'a channel is a channel is a channel' would mean that if you gain a different class's class ability from your own archtype or class ability it is your own class ability and you can take 'extra X' for it (like gaining rage from an archtype will set you up for extra rage.)
in this case specifically id say you can NOT take extra hex for one sole reason. the same class ability you take say so.
you do not gain the normal shaman spirit and hex's as an oracle spirit guide. you gain the 'wandering spirit' and it's hexs. and that specifically is stated as something that extra hex can not be taken for.
lets look at the feat - it let you pick an extra hex from those your allowed to take. now a normal shaman get hexs from his spirit and from his wandering spirit. but he is not allowed to take extra hex from the wondering spirit. only from his normal spirit.
now a spirit guide is said to gain" a spirit guide can form a temporary bond with a spirit, as the shaman’s wandering spirit class feature" then it continue to say the hex comes from that spirit. there for his hex comes from a class ability which DOES NOT allow extra hex feat so that list is blocked out. since he get no other source for his hexs. from which list will he take his extra hex?
I'm not sure I'm following this 'a channel is a channel is a channel' argument, so let's move the goal posts a bit.
Can a Stargarzer who gets 2 hexes from the mystery magic class feature take Extra Hex and Accursed Hex.
Furthermore, as they get 2 revelations from the Heavens Oracle, could they take Extra Revelation?
Personally, I'd say yes to the first and no to the second.
For hexes, the stargazer picks from the witch list (with access to the heavens shaman's hexes as well). But for revelations, they don't get to make their own selections from a list - they're simply handed specific revelations that both happen to come from the same list. (It's the same reason that a non-heavens oracle with the stargazer archetype can't use Extra Revelation to pick heavens mystery revelations.)
(Disclaimer: I haven't read the rest of the thread or familiarized myself with the arguments being made. I'm just here to opine on stuff I wrote, as usual.)
The FAQ does not care about trading class features. It is about if one class feature is the same as another irrespective of name.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
The FAQ quite explicitely does care about trading class features.
Since the Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex, the Spirit Whisperer Wizard actually gets more hexes, not fewer. Not sure why you think the Spirit Guide gets additional hexes.
The Spirit Hex class feature grants a hex every so many levels. That is all it does. Therefore, by the FAQ, it is equivalent to the Hex class feature, and Extra Hex is available.
A Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex per day. A Spirit Whisperer only gets 3 hexes per character. If Hexes were spells, the Spirit Guide Oracle is like an Arcanist with one prepared slot but a fairly diverse spellbook. The Spirit Whisperer Wizard is like a Sorcerer with only 3 hexes known.
Or are you trying to argue that a Spirit Guide who takes Life Link one day can never gain access to Erosion Curse the next day. Or Battle Ward the next. Or Bone Lock the next. That's four hexes in as many days. 4>3. In a month a Spirit Guide may have gained 10x as many hexes as the Spirit Whisperer.
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That equivalency must go both ways....
No. There is no standard of equivalency. This is just like saying Life Oracles don't get channel. This level of pedantry is the reason the channel is channel is channel rule had to be spelled out so explicitely in the first place. Bonded Spirit does not equal Hex any more than Revelations equal Channel Energy, or Domains equal Rage.
Personally, I'd say yes to the first and no to the second.
For hexes, the stargazer picks from the witch list (with access to the heavens shaman's hexes as well). But for revelations, they don't get to make their own selections from a list - they're simply handed specific revelations that both happen to come from the same list. (It's the same reason that a non-heavens oracle with the stargazer archetype can't use Extra Revelation to pick heavens mystery revelations.)
(Disclaimer: I haven't read the rest of the thread or familiarized myself with the arguments being made. I'm just here to opine on stuff I wrote, as usual.)
I agree- if a Stargazer tried to take Extra Revelation there'd be no list of revelations for them to pick an extra from.
But an analagous question I feel would be- can a Stargazer take Abundant Revelations to be able to use Star Chart an additional time per day.
My stance would be yes.
(Edit: first post cut off part of my reply to cevah. Fixed)
The FAQ does not care about trading class features. It is about if one class feature is the same as another irrespective of name.Example: The archer (fighter) archetype ...The FAQ quite explicitely does care about trading class features.
OK. I lost track of the FAQ's question. The question is explicit about archetypes replacing a class ability with something else.
That takes that FAQ out of consideration, since we are talking about class abilities of two different classes, and leaves just the channel is channel is channel post.
Since the Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex, the Spirit Whisperer Wizard actually gets more hexes, not fewer. Not sure why you think the Spirit Guide gets additional hexes.
The Spirit Hex class feature grants a hex every so many levels. That is all it does. Therefore, by the FAQ, it is equivalent to the Hex class feature, and Extra Hex is available.
A Spirit Guide Oracle only gets one hex per day. A Spirit Whisperer only gets 3 hexes per character. If Hexes were spells, the Spirit Guide Oracle is like an Arcanist with one prepared slot but a fairly diverse spellbook. The Spirit Whisperer Wizard is like a Sorcerer with only 3 hexes known.
Or are you trying to argue that a Spirit Guide who takes Life Link one day can never gain access to Erosion Curse the next day. Or Battle Ward the next. Or Bone Lock the next. That's four hexes in as many days. 4>3. In a month a Spirit Guide may have gained 10x as many hexes as the Spirit Whisperer.
Hex users will talk about how many different hexes they can choose from each day. They will prepare X hexes each day. Spirit Guide X=1. Spirit Talker X=1, 2, or 3.
I see this as the more important number.If you see the number of hexes to choose from as more important, then we are not using the same definition, and thus bound to disagree.
That equivalency must go both ways....No. There is no standard of equivalency. This is just like saying Life Oracles don't get channel. This level of pedantry is the reason the channel is channel is channel rule had to be spelled out so explicitely in the first place. Bonded Spirit does not equal Hex any more than Revelations equal Channel Energy, or Domains equal Rage.
Getting channel is not the same as getting a channel class feature.
The Extra Hex requires a class feature, not a hex. Therefore, it needs something that is an equivalent class feature, and Bonded Spirit is not it./cevah
Getting channel is not the same as getting a channel class feature.
The Extra Hex requires a class feature, not a hex. Therefore, it needs something that is an equivalent class feature, and Bonded Spirit is not it.
/cevah
Yeah, the channel is channel is channel rule directly and explicitly contradicts this. There's no real point in discussing further if you won't accept rules handed down by the developers; we can't agree on premises or terms.
Yeah, the channel is channel is channel rule directly and explicitly contradicts this. There's no real point in discussing further if you won't accept rules handed down by the developers; we can't agree on premises or terms.
I've seen this now used twice in refutation as a sort of binding truth. While I actually agree with the idea that they should qualify (as far as my home games are concerned, I'd allow a player to pick up extra channel under the circumstances), your method of shutting down the opposing position is likely invalidated by this quote (quoted here below for your convenience)
Messageboard posts on a subjects made by the design and development team are not "official rulings" on the games. Clarifications in FAQ posts and errata are official rulings.
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Cevah is right.
@Hushed You are missing part of SKR post
And if for some reason two things that seem almost the same (like "channel energy" vs. "channel" vs. "channel positive energy") shouldn't act exactly the same, count on us to tell you how it is different. For example, take the necromancer "power over undead" ability; you can't heal or harm with it, but you can use Command Undead or Turn Undead with it (both of which are based on channeling), and can take feats that augment those two applications, but not feats that alter your purpose away from undead. So, necromancers get an ability that works just like channel energy, except (1) it always works like Command Undead or Turn Undead (i.e., no heal-harm aspect), and (2) can't ever be used on something other than undead. Does the necromancer have an ability called "channel energy"? No.
Bonded Spirit refer to Wandering Spirit, neither work like the hex class feature, so neither is usable for abilities that require the hex class feature.
Cevah is right.
@Hushed You are missing part of SKR post
Bonded Spirit refer to Wandering Spirit, neither work like the hex class feature, so neither is usable for abilities that require the hex class feature.
And if for some reason two things that seem almost the same (like "channel energy" vs. "channel" vs. "channel positive energy") shouldn't act exactly the same, count on us to tell you how it is different. For example, take the necromancer "power over undead" ability; you can't heal or harm with it, but you can use Command Undead or Turn Undead with it (both of which are based on channeling), and can take feats that augment those two applications, but not feats that alter your purpose away from undead. So, necromancers get an ability that works just like channel energy, except (1) it always works like Command Undead or Turn Undead (i.e., no heal-harm aspect), and (2) can't ever be used on something other than undead. Does the necromancer have an ability called "channel energy"? No.
No, I'm really not. The hexes the Spirit Guide Oracle gets don't operate differently from other hexes and they aren't for a different purpose, it's just a limited list. This is like arguing a Qadiran Horselord doesn't get an Animal Companion because he can only choose a horse. Meanwhile, this doesn't do anything to help your argument that Cevah is right when you're working from the same quote that directly contradicts him.
Yeah, the channel is channel is channel rule directly and explicitly contradicts this. There's no real point in discussing further if you won't accept rules handed down by the developers; we can't agree on premises or terms.I've seen this now used twice in refutation as a sort of binding truth. While I actually agree with the idea that they should qualify (as far as my home games are concerned, I'd allow a player to pick up extra channel under the circumstances), your method of shutting down the opposing position is likely invalidated by this quote (quoted here below for your convenience)
Messageboard posts on a subjects made by the design and development team are not "official rulings" on the games. Clarifications in FAQ posts and errata are official rulings.
Eh, binding truth in that it's the primary premise of the original post for this thread, sure. I started the thread asking a specific question (the question was not 'do Spirit Guide Oracles get a hex class feature?'), and submitted channel is channel is channel as the premise so that I wouldn't have to spend the entire thread going back and forth with the contrarians that have taken up residence trying to fight power with semantics.
Is it a bit dismissive? Sure. But even given channel is channel is channel as a premise they still come and tell me 'getting channel is not the same as getting a channel class feature'. There's nothing left except to dismiss people if they can't or won't come to an agreement of premises or terms in order to address the actual question.
Also Stephen's quote is like 4 years after SKR's. It was all well and good to say in 2014 that Developer's quotes aren't official rulings, but it's 7 years since SKR's post now and they still haven't answered the issue he was talking to in an FAQ or errata (although some of the other channel energy FAQ answers imply its truth); it seems they're happy to rest on the laurels of the developer's comments until they're inconvenient.
It's also not like the FAQ and errata system haven't changed over the years, and there have been plenty of problems along the way, some of which persist even after FAQ or errata. The SLAs/spells issue still causes problems.
But now I'm just ranting. I just wanted to say I hear you. You're not wrong. Ideally. But I have to use the tools available to me, which are sometimes far from ideal.
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Cevah is right.
@Hushed You are missing part of SKR post
Bonded Spirit refer to Wandering Spirit, neither work like the hex class feature, so neither is usable for abilities that require the hex class feature.
And if for some reason two things that seem almost the same (like "channel energy" vs. "channel" vs. "channel positive energy") shouldn't act exactly the same, count on us to tell you how it is different. For example, take the necromancer "power over undead" ability; you can't heal or harm with it, but you can use Command Undead or Turn Undead with it (both of which are based on channeling), and can take feats that augment those two applications, but not feats that alter your purpose away from undead. So, necromancers get an ability that works just like channel energy, except (1) it always works like Command Undead or Turn Undead (i.e., no heal-harm aspect), and (2) can't ever be used on something other than undead. Does the necromancer have an ability called "channel energy"? No.No, I'm really not. The hexes the Spirit Guide Oracle gets don't operate differently from other hexes and they aren't for a different purpose, it's just a limited list. This is like arguing a Qadiran Horselord doesn't get an Animal Companion because he can only choose a horse. Meanwhile, this doesn't do anything to help your argument that Cevah is right when you're working from the same quote that directly contradicts him.
You don't need to have an hex, you need to have the hex class feature.
Extra Hex
...
Prerequisite: Hex class feature.
To repeat, it don't say "you need one hex", it say that you need the "Hex class feature".
When do I count as having a class feature?You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
Example: If you have a cleric archetype that replaces channel energy at level 1 (but not later increments of channel energy), you don't gain the channel energy ability until cleric level 3, which means you don't have the channel energy class feature until you reach cleric level 3. Anything with "channel energy" or "channel energy class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 3.
Example: If you have a witch archetype that replaces your hex at level 1 (but not later hexes, major hexes, or grand hexes), you don't gain your first hex ability until witch level 2, which means you don't have the hex class feature until you reach witch level 2. Anything with "hex" or "hex class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 2.
posted July 2013 | back to top
The Spirit Guide Oracles get the
Bonded Spirit (Su): At 3rd level, a spirit guide can form a temporary bond with a spirit, as the shaman's wandering spirit class feature. She must make this selection each day when she refreshes her spells. A spirit guide cannot bond with a spirit that is incompatible with her alignment, ethos, or mystery (GM's discretion).A spirit guide gains one hex of her choice from the list of hexes available from that spirit. She uses her oracle level as her shaman level, and she switches Wisdom for Charisma and vice versa for the purpose of determining the hex's effects.
At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit's spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only those of spell levels she can cast. At 7th level, she gains the spirit ability of her current bonded spirit. At 15th level, she gains the greater spirit ability of her current bonded spirit.
This ability replaces the revelations gained at 3rd, 7th, and 15th levels.
That is in no way similar to the Hex class feature.
Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table 2–10. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
You lack the prerequisite, you don't gert extra hex.
Same thing for Spirit Talker
Spirit Talker
By forging a temporary bond with a spirit, you gain access to an unfamiliar hex.
Prerequisites: Hex class feature; shaman level 6th or witch level 6th.
Your Spirit Guide Oracles walk like an octopus and bark as a dog, so he clearly isn't a duck.
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Yeah, the channel is channel is channel rule directly and explicitly contradicts this. There's no real point in discussing further if you won't accept rules handed down by the developers; we can't agree on premises or terms.I've seen this now used twice in refutation as a sort of binding truth. While I actually agree with the idea that they should qualify (as far as my home games are concerned, I'd allow a player to pick up extra channel under the circumstances), your method of shutting down the opposing position is likely invalidated by this quote (quoted here below for your convenience)
Messageboard posts on a subjects made by the design and development team are not "official rulings" on the games. Clarifications in FAQ posts and errata are official rulings.Eh, binding truth in that it's the primary premise of the original post for this thread, sure. I started the thread asking a specific question (the question was not 'do Spirit Guide Oracles get a hex class feature?'), and submitted channel is channel is channel as the premise so that I wouldn't have to spend the entire thread going back and forth with the contrarians that have taken up residence trying to fight power with semantics.
Is it a bit dismissive? Sure. But even given channel is channel is channel as a premise they still come and tell me 'getting channel is not the same as getting a channel class feature'. There's nothing left except to dismiss people if they can't or won't come to an agreement of premises or terms in order to address the actual question.
Also Stephen's quote is like 4 years after SKR's. It was all well and good to say in 2014 that Developer's quotes aren't official rulings, but it's 7 years since SKR's post now and they still haven't answered the issue he was talking to in an FAQ or errata (although some of the other channel energy FAQ answers imply its truth); it seems they're happy to rest on the laurels of the developer's comments until they're inconvenient.
It's also not like the FAQ and errata system haven't changed over the years, and there have been plenty of problems along the way, some of which persist even after FAQ or errata. The SLAs/spells issue still causes problems.
But now I'm just ranting. I just wanted to say I hear you. You're not wrong. Ideally. But I have to use the tools available to me, which are sometimes far from ideal.
The problem is that your premise is false. The prerequisite is having the Hex class fature or something similar, as explained in SKR post, but you don't have something similar to the hex feature.
You have something that is similar to a piece of the feature, exactly like the necromancer the SKR cited.
The problem is that your premise is false. The prerequisite is having the Hex class fature or something similar, as explained in SKR post, but you don't have something similar to the hex feature.
You have something that is similar to a piece of the feature, exactly like the necromancer the SKR cited.
Speaking of the tools I'm given. I'll except your premise that a Spirit Guide Oracle is to Necromancer as a Bonded Spirit's hex is to Hex class feature for the sake of this argument (it's not really, but that's besides the point)-
If there was a "Prerequisite: channel energy class feature" feat that increased the number of HD of undead you could command or turn at one time, would you let a necromancer take it? Yeah, because that sounds exactly like something the necromancer should be able to do with his channeling ability, as it's something a Command Undead/Turn Undead cleric ought to be able to do it. What about a channel feat that changed the area from a sphere to a cone? Sure, because you could see a Command Undead/Turn Undead cleric taking that feat.
You're explicited contradicted within the same paragraph you quoted. The necromancer isn't precluded from taking feats with a channel energy prerequisite. Having accepted your premise that this is analogous, thank you for proving my point. The Spirit Guide Oracle qualifies for Spirit Talker because talking to additional spirit sounds like something she should be able to do.
You come off so eager to contradict someone it seems like you didn't even bother reading the whole paragraph. Admittedly, it was a big paragraph, and all that reading can be quite burdensome. But you should give it a chance. Context matters.
Has there been an official response?
No.
/thread
Has there been an official response?No.
/thread
Thanks. My thread searches weren't pulling up anything, but often they don't when keywords like spirit get reused for vast array of things.
Your Spirit Guide Oracles walk like an octopus and bark as a dog, so he clearly isn't a duck.
I'll have to remember this one. :-)
/cevah
This is like arguing a Qadiran Horselord doesn't get an Animal Companion because he can only choose a horse.
The Qadiran Horselord's horse is part of their Mount class feature.
"When selecting a mount, a Qadiran horselord must select a horse or pony as her mount."This class feature refers to the Cavalier's Mount class feature.
"Otherwise, this functions as the cavalier mount class feature."
The Cavalier's class feature refers to the Druid’s animal companion class feature.
"This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level."
The text is clear that the horse is an animal companion.
Bonded Spirit's text has no corresponding reference to the Witch's Hex class feature.
/cevah
I think there is a disconnect here as to what qualifies as a class feature. For the Shaman, Hex, Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex are 3 separate class features.
You can have 0, 1, 2 or 3 of these features. A Spirit Guide Oracle gets Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex but does not get Hex. They don't get access to a single Hex listed under the Hex class feature, therefore they don't get that class feature.
Your argument is akin to a Mutagenic Mauler trying to take Extra Bombs just because Mutagen and Bombs are both class features of the Alchemist.
Hex and Wandering Hex may sound similar but they are completely separate class features and having one does not count as having the other.
Spirit Guide Oracles actually do get access to hexes 'listed' under the hex class feature.
...A shaman can select from any of the following hexes or from any of the hexes listed in the description of her chosen spirit....
Additionally, Wandering Hex also specifies
...This ability otherwise functions as the hex class feature....
Not that it should even have to. It's nice they have that extra sentence for clarification, but it should be a bit ludicrous to think that people would be suddenly flummoxed over hexes from a temporary list behaving the same ways as from a permanent list.
But here they are.
Regular shaman hexes include spirit hexes, as quoted. Spirit hexes are the same as hexes granted by the hex class feature, as quoted.
The wandering hex class feature lets you pick spirited hexes from your wandering spirit or from your normal spirit which is part of the hex class feature.
It functions as the hex class feature and so most definitely is not separate.
It's one thing to reject developer commentary on an issue-cases can be made; it's another to reject the source material. We clearly can't agree on premises or terms.