Hunters Moon's page

Have a player wanting to try a Magus in the next campaign, but she came across a possible gap in the errata. Secrets of Magic p.41: Studious Spells 7th Level - Laughing Shadow 7th: Mirror Image. Anyone know if they've addressed this anywhere?

Starts at 5th-level? What's with the odd numbering with this and the last campaign (levels 1-12).

Just got the COM book & PDF, and saw that under Vanguard Aspects, both Boundary and Cascade offer Sunder as the Improved Combat Maneuver. However when using SF Hero Labs, Disarm is an option. Is this an errata in the print, and PDF copies?

Just got the COM book & PDF, and saw that under Vanguard Aspects, both Boundary and Cascade offer Sunder as the Improved Combat Maneuver. However when using SF Hero Labs, Disarm is an option. Is this an errata in the print and PDF copies?

That's the thing though, it is selling elsewhere.

Apparently it isn't here, at all.

And other people could post pictures of empty shelves.

You're using the fact that it's not selling in a place where frequent patrons and employees bad mouth it as confirmation bias.

Er that really doesn't show that it isn't selling here, you do realize that, right?

When I was in the outlying city B&M store, we discussed it in front of anyone there. In terms of locally, people have been around, and haven't. Facts are facts, if the book is what it is, us discussing it or not, won't change that.

Your opinion is not a fact.

You not liking the art or how much is in there and thinking the book is lesser for it is an opinion, not a fact.

You are correct, the facts are the hardcover isn't selling around here at all in the local gaming stores. Nor anywhere else in any outlying B&M store. There is stock on the store sitting there untouched.

And again, people are trying to buy it online and not able to because Amazon is out of stock. Paizo is out of stock. Other retailers that offer online purchase, out of stock. Brick and mortar stores don't sell through as fast in general, but it has been a run away success despite your anecdotal evidence.

Falsehood, B&M stores here sell through their RPG stocks often enough quite quickly. Depends on the product, the demand for it, and how much stock came in.

I’m glad you’ve got such a wide variety of games to choose from. It’s certainly a much better time to be a gamer nowadays than it used to be.

I feel that we are in a gaming renaissance thankfully, I hope that it never ends. There are a plethora of fantasy RPGs available, and good ones at that. It's nice to have that flexibility thankfully.

I suggest you not buy books you think are too expensive. (I think they’re too cheap).

Oh none of us will buy anything like this for sure. It's a tell tale way to push us to 5E easily, no matter how better we think the 2E system is. Or other systems to try out. Though I do have to reiterate, this belief is with the non-core books. I think Paizo could raise their core book PDF prices to $19.99, and should do so. I don't see them losing any revenue from it, as most gamers are used to that price point from many other games.

I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth, again read what I wrote please. "I have yet to meet anyone..." meaning anyone I have interacted with up to this point. That's just relating experience, nothing more.
And again, the print run selling out, like I stated before with the comic book industry, is a falsehood. Selling product to a brick and mortar store, doesn't mean the product moves to customers. It means the STORE has the product. If a store doesn't see the product move past that, they won't reorder the same amount again. Which will mean Paizo doesn't make as much money. Amazon undercuts Paizo....that's considered undercutting?

The whole first print run of the World Guide has already sold out.

Same misconception with the comic industry.

Steve Geddes wrote:

Arnim Thayer wrote:

...many Venture Lieutenants and Venture Agents feel compelled to purchase products to stay "up to date." While the requirement puts the onus of providing proof of game mechanics onto the player, a large majority of the VOs like to understand these in advance of being blind-sided with the latest feat, equipment or archetype at their table. Perhaps even more so than your average casual player, these VOs are the target audience for those pdfs.

Repeating my confession of PFS ignorance above, I don’t understand this bit.

If you felt compelled to buy these to “keep up” hasn’t your cost/year gone down? The Lost Omens subscription is going to work out cheaper than the Player Companion subscription was, isn’t it? (And definitely cheaper for those who were getting both the player companions and campaign setting books).

I can see why players who only bought one or two companions over the course of a few years might feel like the price has gone up, but if you’re a “get everything” person, my calculation has been that the overall cost of collecting is now less.

In the past, GMs and VOs could keep up with the amount of content through two methods: 1) cherrypicking, or 2) the extremely affordable nature of the pdfs. In the first, it came down to content. If you never run a scenario in Kaer Maga, there is little need to purchase the Campaign Setting book detailing it. And on the rare chance you do, you can either purchase that sourcebook (in either physical or digital form) or do a web search and see whaat information you find. The latter might produce a workable knowledge of the region, but purchasing the sourcebook allows the GM in inject a little more detail, scoured from the pages of Paizo’s impressive writing. In the second method, a GM/VO can have an much more portable copy of the exact source material at their finger tips, trading in pounds of pages for a far more accessible digital format. When it came to soft-bound books, sometimes having that...

My group learned LONG ago, buying the print copies was utterly pointless. The amount of info inside, if it isn't a core book, is never worth the price. The PDFs allow players to just cherry pick anything needed, for a fraction of the price. And obviously carrying around brick after brick of hardcover isn't easy either.

The Lost Omens World Guide is only 136 pages.
Amazon.ca has the print copy book listed at $48.80....

Paizo will bury itself with their actions, and honestly let them. It is their choice for overpricing product, with little in it. I have yet to meet one person, that has looked inside the book, and gone "OMG that's amazing for that price!". Actually the complete opposite, including the store owners and managers.
Having the rules available online for free, is another reason NOT to purchase this. By your example, if there are only 25 pages of rules, why for any reason would I spend $25 on the pdf? Or $40+ for a print copy? For what, fluff and world building, which if you check that within the pages, is sparse, with more art included.
Now people have pushed back, stating that art is just as equal to any written content. Fine by me, we will see in time just how much money Paizo is making from this type of business plan, and how soon they drop the amount they are selling books of this size. Paizo only held the #1 spot over D&D for a short number of years, currently they are ranked #5 in overall sales. The next quarter, and ones after that, will tell the tale. (Star Wars is outselling it, as is Vampire!)

This reminds me of when there was a big push from some folks, a few years back, to judge the worth of video games based only on the hours of play they offered. The quality of the game, its art design, its play style and controls, its story, its attention to detail, its potential to inspire emotion or creative potential... irrelevant. The only thing these people wanted was a raw equation of hours of gaming per dollar spent.

Sometimes quality and presentation make a difference. And if that's a "ripoff", well... I really, honestly, do not know what to tell you. Your mindset is so different from my own that I'm not honestly sure how to communicate with you. :/

Oh wow, you brought this up? And have you seen what has happened SINCE that occurred? Exactly what was stated: games that were so highly priced, with little content, FAILED and DID NOT SELL. That is still here to this day, again, you HAVE to make an equation to content versus price point. (Trust me talk to people that worked on Fallout 76.)

LOL It's called he actually opened up one of the books, and simply looked at the product, rather simple actually.
Go ahead and take the hit, again as I said, that's their problem, not ours in undercutting themselves. I know exactly what they charge, you missed the point completely. No one would have knocked them for charging $19.99 for larger core books. Because that's an accepted price for that type of book from any other company.
I am referring to the Lost Omens Guide, and the amount of art found within, compared to written content. Since art seems to be a huge contention point in this.
Really, that's funny, want to check out the sales for the last little while, and where PF has slid to? You're more than welcome to look it up, and where they were at. If you think they aren't trying to compete, I have no clue what business sense you have.
Sigh...Art DOES facilitate it, but art ALONE isn't enough. And I'm sorry, I'm assuming that if there wasn't art, it wouldn't be filled with written content? Er ok what would it be filled with, white empty space?
Yes they do have both, however in the case of the Lost Omens Guide, there is WAY more art within, versus content for the price point and page count. We are talking about balance in totality here.
No we are paying for RPGs, exactly, that have a good amount of everything within. Not sparse written content, large amounts of art, and being overpriced for it.
Lots of reason to pirate, again you seem to missing things that I write for some reason. People don't buy the books for the RULES alone, they buy it for the information on the WORLD. Meat and bones, as stated.
The three books wouldn't come up to 600 pages either, do the addition please. 136x3 = 408 The attack point of this is Paizo simply splitting the book up, and jacking the price, instead of having it in a "core" book, and then only pricing it at $15. Simple numbers, why bother only putting out ONE $15 book, when you can gouge the customers for $25x3?
136 pages for that price point, doesn't compare to ANY other company's product. And you can go find any other product that has a bucket load of art as well if you want to get specific as was stated before.

First edition Campaign Setting Book pdfs were 64 pages for $15.99. This is 136 pages for $25.99. Now, I'm not a math major, but my handy dandy calculator tells me that 15.99/64 is almost 25 cents a page and that 25.99/136 is slightly more than 19 cents a page. Seems like the second edition book is actually a better deal, but maybe facts don't actually matter...

Facts totally matter, where did I mention at all that the 1E Campaign Books weren't total rip offs also? I was only dealing with 2E material, since 1E is long done with.

Simple story to relate today, which proves my point.
Was out at the biggest gaming store in a city close by to mine. Every sort of gaming possible, including RPGs. (No surprise, the city houses one of the largest universities in our country. And a massive gaming community outside of mine.)
Saw the Lost Omens World Guide there, asked one of the managers, who's also the head of the RPG section to hand it over. Cracked it open to hear that it was fresh from the printer.
As I flipped through it, I just looked at him as his eyes sort of went wonky.
He started "That looks a little sparse in there."
"Yup, how much are you asking for this?"
"$44..."
I gave him that look. "You're asking that much for this book?"
We both had a chuckle.
His response "Looks like there's a lot of art in there, but not much content or writing. More like big font filling in pages."
Now you can believe me, or not and think this is just fluffing my point. That's up to you.

There is a reality to what occurred today. Yes Paizo's rules are all available online. Yes Paizo took a hit on their core books in the past, to help bring in new players.
But here are the facts, that's their mistake, not ours.
A usual core book PDF for any system is honestly expected around $19.99. No one would be surprised to pay that. If they decided to take the hit, and are now gouging for very little content, that's going to be their loss.
If Paizo thinks stuffing their books with a bucket load of art, and not having the content within equal pricing, especially versus other games, then they are in for a rude awakening. They already are behind in sales versus 5E, which is a juggernaut currently for a variety of reasons. And Paizo is trying to play catch up badly.
One of the things players want, is world building. Characters, countries, races, political movers and shakers, etc. The meat and bones of Golarion.
If the art is removing large portions of content, it isn't going to help in that. Yes it inspires, but it doesn't give the detail that a player wants to immerse in. Art helps move product, but content PLUS art is what makes it sell well. That includes maps, as much as they are fun and useful.
Writing matters, content matters, these aren't art books, they are RPGs.
If Paizo continues with this sort of alteration, they're going to take a huge hit in sales. And their material will increase in getting pirated. No one will dish out that level of cash, for that little material. They could have easily just merged the books together, instead of this plan. To me, and many others I have talked to, this is gouging, in an attempt to make up for the money they lost in their decisions prior. All I have to say is, good luck, they're going to need it.

You know almost all the written information goes up for free on the Archives of Nethys and the Pathfinderwiki right?

I’m not being gouged, art is one of the main reasons I buy Paizo’s product. A piece of art can convey just as much information as a written description can.

If all the info is going up on those sites for free, why would I pay so much in the first place? You are now just giving me reasons NOT to purchase Paizo content, and just use the sites beyond having a Core Book.

Hunters Moon wrote:

So I'm paying for a bunch of art pieces, and cartography?[/b]Very much so.[quoteWSo by stating that, you're saying that the Lost Omens book, has more filler, than solid content.

I beg your pardon.

Quote:

So instead of having a book filled with information (which is sort of needed for a world guide), they decided to hack it down, throw more art inside, and spread the info across three books. To gouge the customer more.

So basically Paizo is expecting us to pay for more pretty pictures, than content in their books.

Yes, they decided to gouge their customers by filling their books with beautiful art, art that costs highly more per page than the same amount of words would.

Yes, they are gouging their customers, by, instead of putting, you know, WRITTEN INFORMATION about the world, they just put art instead. Which reduces the amount of content in said book, and let's them spread it across three books.

33 pieces of art in an 136 page book is... not a lot. At all.

Art and cartography is way more expensive per square inch than text.

Which tells you something about the two books.

I’m curious, why does electronic versions of products have to be heavily discounted to be “sensible”?

Because it's on an electronic medium, and not in print. Paper has now basically become a luxury item. It's why print books are so insanely expensive to purchase. Hard covers even more so. Why many companies don't go the hardcover route anymore. And PoD (Print on Demand) often offer both hard and soft versions, for customers that don't wish to pay more. The production of a PDF, is vastly cheaper than having it printed out. Also saves on possible losses. If the print copy doesn't sell, what do you do with all that money spent? An electronic book, is just that, data online. As well, space concerns. People live in much smaller housing now, they can't afford to have it filled with numerous books. And why bother, you can read it on your computer, or put it on a larger screen as well.

So I looked through the Gadget Guide for M&M and it’s pretty clear that the products aren’t analogous beyond being the same number of pages. That’s apart from the fact that GG came out five years ago (which may or may not make a difference, I haven’t looked at any recent Green Ronin products to compare).

I counted thirty three pieces of art in the entire book. The Lost Omens World Guide is packed with art and cartography - that would explain the difference on its own (I blew past thirty three pieces very quickly before I stopped counting).

Art and cartography is way more expensive per square inch than text.

So I'm paying for a bunch of art pieces, and cartography? You're joking. You think you can justify +$10 comparing both books, on THOSE grounds? And if that's the case, I can just keep throwing PDF example at you, that continues my point. I also love how you state that beyond the same page content, they aren't analogous. Uhm, the page count should MAKE THEM analogous. They are both supplement books for a core RPG, which means that makes them equatable.

Hunters Moon wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

Hunters Moon wrote:

As for asking them, I rather be blunt and forward with what it exactly looks like. Ripping customers off for less content, or just not putting it out all together in one book. So that they can make more money off smaller bits of it.

I doubt you’ll get the answer you’re looking for then. Do you actually want to understand the reasons behind the pricing?

It's amazing that I have to "understand" the reasons behind the pricing. When I literally just showed you only ONE company, their product, and sensible pricing versus page count. Go to Drivethrurpg, look around, it isn't hard to compare. Again, it's THEIR problem, not ours, for pricing things incorrectly. We the consumer aren't the ones at fault, for complaining about it.

No you don’t “have to”... I asked you if you wanted to. It was a genuine question.

This is a weird conversation. I get the feeling you’re not reading what I’m saying but are just doggedly having an argument based on what you expect me to think.

I’ll repeat, I AGREE with you that it’s weird there’s no core campaign book.

I agree with Joana that the PDF pricing policy hasn’t changed (you do too now, right?)

Well if you think I'm just "doggedly having an argument" with you, I won't continue conversing with you. That's a quick way to just shut down a conversation at any point.

As well, it's easy to show other companies putting out the same level of content and quality, for a much less price value.
There is no reason a 136 page book, should be anything more than $15. None. $25 is price gouging at it's best. It should not be tolerated by anyone. I would be more than happy, to have Joana, or any official Paizo employee, try to prove that point anyday, anytime.
Because at that time, I will start listing PDF product, after product, from other companies. That makes their prices look ridiculous.

Hunters Moon wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

Hunters Moon wrote:

It isn't like they were in a rush...

Err...they absolutely were. The whole company were working frantically to get 2E out the door and they didn’t quite manage to achieve what they wanted.

If this book had been the size of the ISWG, there’s no way they’d have been able to achieve it.

That's their problem, not ours.

We shouldn't have to pay through the teeth, because they can't get their product out in time, and at a level that equals content and pricing balance.

I don’t know if you’re following the argument. I was speculating as to why they didn’t release a campaign setting core book - because they didn’t have time. You said they weren’t in a rush, I pointed out they were...

I’m really not sure what “not my problem” even means in that context.

It’s not terribly important though - I’m not trying to change your mind in value or what you think they “should” have done. Merely pointing out, that their PDF pricing policy hasn’t really changed. I’m certainly not trying to argue you into anything.

Ok I see what you mean, here's my response to that.

Hunters Moon wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

Hunters Moon wrote:

An easy example, as I was just purchasing this recently: Mutants & Masterminds 3E. Here are some PDF prices, rounded up for convenience sake.

Basic Hero's Handbook: 128 pages/$17
Power Profiles: 224 pages/$20
Rogue's Gallery: 174 pages/$18
Supernatural Sourcebook: 152 pages/$15
Gadget Guide: 136 pages/$16
Cosmic Handbook: 139 pages/$15
Hero High, Remastered: 176 pages/$18

Cheers. Just to be sure, those all feature the same amount of art, right? That’s one of the principal cost drivers.

Oh yeah, M&M never skimps on their art, their interior designing, all of it. Very bright, colorful, artistic, the whole nine yards. It's basically one of the main reasons, if you want to run superhero RPGs, M&M has been no.1 since their first edition. And continues to be so still.

Okay, I’ll go look at the gadget guide. That’s the best comparison by pagecount, I think.

Give it a whirl, one thing I love about M&M, is that every page is PACKED with info, as well as being engaging. Art, color, framing, all of it. Green Ronin is a MUCH smaller company than Paizo. They can put out this level of quality, for that cheap a price. They understand I feel that they can't waste space, time, etc.

Hunters Moon wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

As another datapoint (to the point that this doesn’t represent a change in policy, just a characterisation of supplement vs core book):

This was the ISWG’s precursor a 256 page PDF for $35.

The Inner Sea World Guide was the exception, not the rule.

That price point is utterly disgusting, beyond belief.

Here's a close example to counter that.
Exalted Third Edition Supplement Book The Realm: 192 pages for $15 PDF. No lack of anything interior wise either.

There is NO chance that a 256 page book, is worth $35 as a PDF. That's what we call price gouging, pure and simple.

Well that was years ago.

I disagree again (I think it’s worth more) but I don’t have any interest arguing about value - that’s just a subjective judgement we all make.

My point though is that nothing has changed, the ISWG was an exception to their standard, established pricing model.

I rather utilize facts instead of subjective, which is why I compare prices and content of other companies. Numbers are numbers, business is business, plain and simple.

Hunters Moon wrote:

As for asking them, I rather be blunt and forward with what it exactly looks like. Ripping customers off for less content, or just not putting it out all together in one book. So that they can make more money off smaller bits of it.

I doubt you’ll get the answer you’re looking for then. Do you actually want to understand the reasons behind the pricing?

It's amazing that I have to "understand" the reasons behind the pricing. When I literally just showed you only ONE company, their product, and sensible pricing versus page count. Go to Drivethrurpg, look around, it isn't hard to compare. Again, it's THEIR problem, not ours, for pricing things incorrectly. We the consumer aren't the ones at fault, for complaining about it.

Hunters Moon wrote:

It isn't like they were in a rush...

Err...they absolutely were. The whole company were working frantically to get 2E out the door and they didn’t quite manage to achieve what they wanted.

If this book had been the size of the ISWG, there’s no way they’d have been able to achieve it.

That's their problem, not ours.

As another datapoint (to the point that this doesn’t represent a change in policy, just a characterisation of supplement vs core book):

This was the ISWG’s precursor a 256 page PDF for $35.

The Inner Sea World Guide was the exception, not the rule.

That price point is utterly disgusting, beyond belief.

There is NO chance that a 256 page book, is worth $35 as a PDF. That's what we call price gouging, pure and simple.

Hunters Moon wrote:

An easy example, as I was just purchasing this recently: Mutants & Masterminds 3E. Here are some PDF prices, rounded up for convenience sake.

Basic Hero's Handbook: 128 pages/$17
Power Profiles: 224 pages/$20
Rogue's Gallery: 174 pages/$18
Supernatural Sourcebook: 152 pages/$15
Gadget Guide: 136 pages/$16
Cosmic Handbook: 139 pages/$15
Hero High, Remastered: 176 pages/$18

Cheers. Just to be sure, those all feature the same amount of art, right? That’s one of the principal cost drivers.

Oh yeah, M&M never skimps on their art, their interior designing, all of it. Very bright, colorful, artistic, the whole nine yards. It's basically one of the main reasons, if you want to run superhero RPGs, M&M has been no.1 since their first edition. And continues to be so still.

It isn't like they were in a rush, and it's obvious that this trilogy already was planned. As well, Books 2 & 3 are being released by January 2020.
As for asking them, I rather be blunt and forward with what it exactly looks like. Ripping customers off for less content, or just not putting it out all together in one book. So that they can make more money off smaller bits of it.

An easy example, as I was just purchasing this recently: Mutants & Masterminds 3E. Here are some PDF prices, rounded up for convenience sake.

Basic Hero's Handbook: 128 pages/$17
Power Profiles: 224 pages/$20
Rogue's Gallery: 174 pages/$18
Supernatural Sourcebook: 152 pages/$15
Gadget Guide: 136 pages/$16
Cosmic Handbook: 139 pages/$15
Hero High, Remastered: 176 pages/$18

Fair enough I altered my statement as it was mistaken, apologies.
Yes, interesting enough, they ONLY have core books. So basically Paizo is going to suck more money out of their customers, by making what should be a "core" book, into a setting book.
Ah, this just gets better to see the true facts here.

Hunters Moon wrote:

So basically you're telling me, since it's not a "core" book, Paizo can just pump out low page count material, and jack the price up as high as they want?

Well yes, they obviously can. I reject the premise though - they haven’t “jacked up” the price.

I’m surprised this isn’t a core book, fwiw, but given it’s not, I see it as in line with their other PDFs.

You realize just how sketchy you proved that is right? "It isn't a core book, but given it is not..." So because it isn't a core book, they just split it into three books, and spike the pricing up? You are proving my point rather clearly.

Starfinder APs are NOT Pathfinder supplement books.
Again, as I stated, we are talking about a dramatic shift from pricing. As well as comparing it to other companies.
I don't understand why you are not reading that.

So basically you're telling me, since it's not a "core" book, Paizo can just pump out low page count material, and jack the price up as high as they want?
Consistent with past practise? They have never put out such low page counts, for such high pricing. If I'm wrong, please show me so.

I'll chime in since I was one of the most vocal against this type of pricing in the Lost Omens post. My concern is that their pricing isn't consistent with their general product pricing, nor comparing to most other companies around.
You don't have to bring up just Core Books, which fine they have put at a discount to grab the attention of newcomers to the hobby. At $15 they offer a bucket load for that price. However, other company's supplement books offer much more meat, and content, for their page counts easily.
As well, go over to Starfinder, and check out the pricing for all their core PDFs. ALL $9.99, doesn't matter the size of the book.
So give me one reason why this 136 page basically "core" book (since it is the Inner Sea Guide of 2E at the moment), is jacked to $25?
Also, consider buying this at a brick and mortar store, which it has just released in my area. In Canada, the local stores are selling this for $36.95 CAD. A hardcover 136 page book, for basically $40 when tax is included.
I can look around at so many other RPGs in the same section, and this pricing is laughable at best for the content size. Add to that, this is a trilogy of books. So for three books PDF wise, at 136 pages a shot, I'm going to be dropping $75 for PDFs alone? $120 for print copies? For in total 408 pages?
Oh, and for those shouting "QUALITY OVER CONTENT", please don't. There is a logical balance between the two, in terms of customer purchasing.
What's sad is, my group have been playing PF since literally day one that it dropped. (Basically went from 3.0, to 3.5, to Pathfinder.) They were wanting to transfer over to D&D 5E, after reading the beta test copy, finding too many issues in it. And having major concerns with where the product was going. (The word "glut" is best used to describe where 1E ended up. As well as horrendous rules additions over time, which broke the system more often than not.)
I was the one that bought the 2E core and bestiary, and convinced them to go back to Pathfinder. After informing them of the price points of these pdfs, they gave that deer in headlights look, then laughed. (We are talking gamers of over 25 years here.)
I will tell you right now, Paizo you are going to alienate, and push away your customer base if you continue this pricing plan. And to be honest, just increase the amount of pirating of your PDFs. Fewer, thicker, more quality books, will always get you more for the long run. Instead of continually pumping out book after book, of stuff that is rarely used.

300+ pages = $19.99
136 pages = $25

Pretty simple math. You want us to pay for quality and quantity, that's fine. You want to gouge, keep going by basically putting little page count for high costs.

Wrong, see that's where you don't get it, my profession is a writer. I value overall worth and content from a company. A company can already pump out 300-600 pages of quality in a book, and price it low. Don't then turn around and slap us in the face by spiking the price WAY above the norm, and give us no content at all. That's called gouging. There is a balance between the two that is kept, that's called good commerce, and love of the customer.

Whelp, that says it all folks. It saddens me you would let a company run you over like that. It's why we have the issues we have today with them. But hey, like you said, your money, blow $100 for 10 pages also. Why stop there, same path of logic.

Wrong. I can send you link after link showing otherwise from full priced items. Also that's great, go pay 10 pages for $25 as well then, since you value only "content over page count". LOL That's how we let companies continue to ruin the market, and gouge players. This type of mentality.

Most PDFs have never been anywhere near full book price. I can sit here and link example after example comparing Paizo PDFs to my local brick and mortar stores. Also again, you don't engage the fact that the book is 136 pages ONLY, for $25. While other companies are offering over 300+ pages for $19.99 easily. That's ridiculous gouging of customers, for barely any content.

It is amazing how much you guys blindly follow this sort of price gouging from a company. Check around to any other PDFs from most other companies. See how much they offer for $25, compared to this product, with a scant 136 page count. Honestly it's sad that Paizo has gone this route, and if it continues, my group definitely won't be buying. And this coming from us that have been playing since day one 1E. Oh well, that's how companies lose players.

"The Core Rulebook and Bestiary are offered at a lower price point to make it easier to access the game. The Lost Omens World Guide is not mainly game rules, it is setting lore. Since not everyone plays in Golarion, it's not as critical a resource. Check the 1E core rules, you will see the same setup from 2008."

Uhm, no.
Example: Inner Sea Gods. PDF is $27, page count - 338.
Sorry if you think $25 for 137 is of worth or sensible, you're being scammed. That's literally disgusting from Paizo, to steal that much money from any patron, for that LITTLE content.

So can someone please tell me what Paizo's breakdown is for pricing their PDFs? This is a 136-page sourcebook, for $25. Both the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, are mammothly larger, and are only $15. Is this a mistake, or has Paizo lost their minds? Because the Character Guide coming out in October is priced the same.

"If the targeted robot fails its Will saving throw, it transforms into a magical construct made of wood, stone, flesh, or bone. The robot's statistics and abilities do not change, although it is now a magical construct rather than a technological one. It loses the robot subtype, but does not lose its Intelligence score (if any). You can issue mental commands to the infused robot as long as it stays within range of the spell; issuing commands in this manner is a free action for you. When the spell's duration runs out, the robot transforms back to normal but is staggered for 1d4 rounds."

Not the best written spell honestly, but from the sounds of it, it's Dominante Robot. Anyone else come across using this?

Page 49/50 - Jamirah
How does she end up with a BAB +18 for a CR12 critter? Also, she has 4 attacks, wouldn't that put her far above where she's supposed to be as a viable villain for a group's level?

Everyone's ACs at that point were rather nice (upper 20s) except the inqusitor, and with tetsura tanking until the kill bots got there, the saves weren't a problem.

To be fair, my group is veteran to aps and build very defensive oriented characters. At 12, two of them are base mid 30s, the other two around 28.

OK aside from your guys being veterans and having seriously ridiculous ACs at their level, what about normal concepts of balance with her? Anyone else have any views?

My group didnt have any issues with her. Her damage per attack is disastrously low unless she crits with her bow. Those 4 attacks at d8+5 barely compares to a single attack from my groups 2h PA guy, and her dpr was lower than the twf ranger in the group as well. In a 1 on 1 encounter with no fliers, it could get hairy, but with Tetsura, our blaster oracle, and our archer investigator all flying, they had her pretty much killed before the two melees even finished climbing the walkway and killing her mooks.

She did get a full round of attacks including 1 crit in with her bow after our investigator popped his invis to studied strike her and gave him a bit of hurt, but with the oracle and Tetsura closing in, she had to give up the ranged quickly as she retreated into the pyramid.

The 8 rog levels don't bump her cr more, though, because they're a non favored type of class levels. AKA complicated monster math that doesn't always add up in play.

What about Stunning Assault and her 4d6 sneak attack added into her melee attacks though? Mirror Image as well on top of it? We have 2 Bloodragers, an Oracle healer and an Arcanist. One was Charmed, the other got stunned via Stunning Assault (the save is DC 28) on the first strike, then 4 more attacks at 1d8+7 (her Cruel Longspear) +4d6.