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Organized Play Member. 77 posts. 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 3 Organized Play characters.


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Scarab Sages

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Just got the COM book & PDF, and saw that under Vanguard Aspects, both Boundary and Cascade offer Sunder as the Improved Combat Maneuver. However when using SF Hero Labs, Disarm is an option. Is this an errata in the print, and PDF copies?

Scarab Sages

Just got the COM book & PDF, and saw that under Vanguard Aspects, both Boundary and Cascade offer Sunder as the Improved Combat Maneuver. However when using SF Hero Labs, Disarm is an option. Is this an errata in the print and PDF copies?

Scarab Sages

Anguish wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Yeah, if HM had come in saying "Hey, I think this price point is too high, here's why" rather than "Paizo is gouging customers with low content high prices!" I would have just nodded and moved on.
Funny how the same statement, said in two different ways, alters the facts of it. I don't sugar coat things, I say it like it is, sorry mate.

One: they're not the same statement. The version TOZ proposed is a statement of personal opinion regarding perception of price. The second is an accusation of malicious intent. That you read the two as being identical explains why nobody is getting through to you.

Two: there is a drastic difference between not sugar-coating things and dousing them in raw sewage.

Three: people use the phrase "I say it like it is" frequently do nothing of the sort. I believe your participation in this discussion falls in that category. You may say it as you see it, but your analysis of implications, intents, and consequences of the circumstance is quite open to debate. Obviously.

One: Basically ignored earlier statements with comparisons to other companies, their product and pricing. Two: You dump sewage on me by your ridiculous pricing methods, you get it spewed back. I don't have to be kind or compassionate, when this sort of thing happens from a company. Three: You can debate it until the cows come home, as I said earlier, come back in a year, or at the quarterly markers. See if Paizo has risen in sales, or not. Fourth: I can get you a ton of copies easily, come around my city. There are at least 20 within arms reach.

Scarab Sages

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
The fact you just stated you made an assumption about anything, again dissolves your argument. Facts matter, nothing else.
See, if you didn't talk like this, I never would have bothered you. I'm not making arguments.

And you once again you reveal your true colors, why did you bother in the first place, and make direct statements against me? Instead of JUST talking about the subject matter at hand? Here's a hint: try sticking to the title of the thread, and NOT directing your statements at me specifically. Might help your statements to be engaged with better.

Scarab Sages

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Gorbacz wrote:
Oh, I certainly hope you'll be around to continue this discussion if Paizo doesn't fall over in 6 months.

Too short of a time, things are tracked in seasonal quarters (last was Spring), and yearly. Especially when new editions come out, always check in the next year. Since guess what happens then? Another GenCon, more releases, and then you see if any game from the previous year, is still marching forward full steam.

It's September, anyone cracking champagne about PF2E right now hasn't seen now the gaming industry tracks in the long term.
Is it good that things sold out? Yes, obviously, that's money made. Same as they got a second season on G&S with their show. Interest to keep things alive, moving forward, and getting new players.

There's a good reason 5E pulled out the Eberron card.
As well as PF waiting five years in until releasing 2E.

It's all about timing, and when to try to keep grasping at customers to keep them paying for YOUR product, and not someone else's.

Scarab Sages

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
The fact is, you think the price is too high. Your opinion is that Paizo is gouging customers. That supposes malice on the part of Paizo, which I find distasteful given your complete lack of personal knowledge of the people involved. Perhaps I am mistaken and you've attended PaizoCon or GenCon and met with them, but I doubt it.

The fact you just stated you made an assumption about anything, again dissolves your argument. Facts matter, nothing else.

It's hilarious that you think I need to have "personal knowledge" of anyone, to see the practices of a company via pricing. (Regardless of whether I met anyone, or not.) That literally makes no sense.
This is a business, not a club house. This company is attempting to make money, and succeed against a MULTITUDE of competitors. Most of which are chomping at the bit, to get geek's money. Which none of us have generally. Since we are still basking in a world where most countries economies are not booming.
- If a company makes such a move, that is with intent.
- If they make a move that is to this degree of gouging, that's also INTENT.
As was also stated above (which I say thanks to Arnim Thayer as I haven't been in the PFS circle for a while to know the going ons), it will have varying effects it seems across the board.

But hey, I could just be blowing steam. Which is why, at the end of the day, we will see numbers in a year/each quarter. It's obvious no one from Paizo thinks this is a bad move, so they'll continue their path.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
Like I said before, come back next year, let's track the quarterly sales. And we will see if Paizo can get out of 5th place, and beat Vampire and Star Wars...
If Pathfinder/Starfinder is selling well why do they need to beat Vampire or Star Wars?

Pathfinder has slipped to 5th place, behind Star Wars and Vampire. Starfinder holds 2nd, with 5E being the top dog (as expected at this stage).

PF1E held number one for a good number of years (I think it was two consecutively?), but the moment 5E came out, they started to slip faster and faster behind.
That's why I was stated earlier, we will wait and see the numbers in the coming months. If players don't care for this pricing, then they'll start rising. If they do, then that's a tell tale sign they were gouging, and players said no way, and shuffled off.
It's always laughable when I hear a company shout "We sold out!" so early on. Being around for decades in gaming, trust me, a new edition always sparks some interest. Let's see if it has any real legs though in the long run.

Scarab Sages

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captain yesterday wrote:
That's not true, Paizo has shown again and again that they're willing to listen to well spoken dissent, no need to insult them.

Their pricing insults me honestly, in what they expect to siphon from customers, with so little content inside. They get what they give, pretty simple.

Scarab Sages

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Yeah, if HM had come in saying "Hey, I think this price point is too high, here's why" rather than "Paizo is gouging customers with low content high prices!" I would have just nodded and moved on.

Funny how the same statement, said in two different ways, alters the facts of it. I don't sugar coat things, I say it like it is, sorry mate.

Scarab Sages

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Arnim Thayer wrote:

Wow! I leave this thread for a few days and it explodes!

I'm not going to argue that the print price of this book is too high; I concede that I do not know enough about the overall cost of producing a book such as this to make that judgment call. As others have pointed out, the cost for the pdf of this book is set by a (rough) consistent percentage of the actual cost of a physical copy. I've given other industry comparisons, and admit unarguably that Paizo cannot compete in same price range with 5E Dungeons & Dragons, simply because Hasbro can afford to take the hit in much that same way that Walmart does: they can spread the lose to other departments if necessary. Paizo is a much smaller company. They are the #2 tabletop RPG publishing company in the world presently, but the gap between them and the #1 RPG publisher is fairly huge... and they have years of branding to help them. In short, I'm not going to tip my lance at this particular windmill anymore.

Yes, in the publishing industry the terms "sold out" can consider a number of factors. The largest one that creates a false impression of popularity/scarcity is "purposely underprinting." The comics industry does this a lot, especially after the devastating effect of "overprinting" in the 90's.I have enough faith in Paizo however to believe they wouldn't resort to such a tactic. Because of this, I give congratulations to you on selling out on this newest of tomes! You have earned it!

I do implore Paizo to take a look at the effect this could have on the organized play community, a community that is required to own the appropriate source material to use options provided. I also ask that they stay committed to their announced printing schedule of "one per quarter" to help belay the lose of the easily affordable Companion line. As I've said before, I don't know what the solution is. I've just reported the problem, that perceived problem being that the pdf price seems comparatively too high to my local/regional player base. It is up to Paizo to...

Don't bother, they aren't listening. They are so far into the "We are doing amazing we sold out!", they couldn't care about the PDF cost, nor PFS, nor anything else period. Which is pretty telling where they are at in terms of caring about their customers anymore.

Like I said before, come back next year, let's track the quarterly sales. And we will see if Paizo can get out of 5th place, and beat Vampire and Star Wars...

Scarab Sages

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
Joana wrote:
The whole first print run of the World Guide has already sold out.

Same misconception with the comic industry.

Moving product to a store, versus it actually selling to customers.

The misconception is yours—in publishing (and many other industries) "sold out" means "the publisher has sold out." It does not mean "there are no copies for sale anywhere," and it cannot mean that, as that sort of thing can't reasonably be tracked. It means that distribution cannot reorder that product unless and until it is reprinted. The fact that there are some copies on a shelf in Canada, or listings on eBay, or third-party sellers on Amazon, doesn't change that.

It also doesn't change the fact that there's latent demand for those books—maybe not where you are, but in many other places. And it's going to take a few months before the reprint is available, so it's reasonable to assume that demand will increase before supply is available to meet it.

So you and your store can view their unsold copies as a problem. But many retailers see having inventory of in-demand, sold-out products as an opportunity. Do they sell on eBay or Amazon?

Stores, not store. Plural. Don't try to diminish things thanks, it doesn't show well on your argument.

As for my misconception, fine by me, as I stated, it is much like the comic book industry. Product sold to a store, isn't product sold to a consumer. When it's sitting on a shelf gathering dust, good luck they'll continue ordering the same amount. Who do you think then is going to lose money?
I'm glad that it sold out on Amazon, great sign. Nothing better than having the big companies doing it for you.
BUT I also love that you said there are "some" copies on "a" shelf. Next time try to read what I wrote, I was rather clear. There are MANY copies, on MANY shelves in the B&M stores, not only in ONE city, but many.

Scarab Sages

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That's the thing though, it is selling elsewhere.

Apparently it isn't here, at all.

Funny that though....

Scarab Sages

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And other people could post pictures of empty shelves.

You're using the fact that it's not selling in a place where frequent patrons and employees bad mouth it as confirmation bias.

Er that really doesn't show that it isn't selling here, you do realize that, right?

Actually no, there is no confirmation bias. Why? Because the store has still bought the product, and it's on the shelf. If there was bias, they wouldn't even bother. Nice try though. I'm sorry you can't accept that people pick up the book, and have an opinion on it that doesn't jive with yours.

Scarab Sages

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When I was in the outlying city B&M store, we discussed it in front of anyone there. In terms of locally, people have been around, and haven't. Facts are facts, if the book is what it is, us discussing it or not, won't change that.

Your opinion is not a fact.

You not liking the art or how much is in there and thinking the book is lesser for it is an opinion, not a fact.

You are correct, the facts are the hardcover isn't selling around here at all in the local gaming stores. Nor anywhere else in any outlying B&M store. There is stock on the store sitting there untouched.

The facts in terms of pricing, is brought about comparing it to other PDFs, from other companies. On top of that, there is the above argument that another member brought forward with PFS.

Scarab Sages

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And again, people are trying to buy it online and not able to because Amazon is out of stock. Paizo is out of stock. Other retailers that offer online purchase, out of stock. Brick and mortar stores don't sell through as fast in general, but it has been a run away success despite your anecdotal evidence.

Falsehood, B&M stores here sell through their RPG stocks often enough quite quickly. Depends on the product, the demand for it, and how much stock came in.

As for anecdotal, completely fair, but that's the difference: I have it right in front of me. I could post pictures of the stock on walls, and in the back storage, etc.
But hey, that doesn't alter the PDF price either. Which is part of this argument, and was brought to larger light above by Arnim Thayer. There are multiple layers to this, and he was correct. The hardcovers mean little in comparison to electronic, such is the way things are going.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:

Two of the largest, local B&M stores have 10+ here in stock each. Selling for $36.95 as well. Also it is available in multiple copies at various other stores, around 5 copies at each store.

And that's a major metropolitan city. So no idea what customers you're looking at that are having issues, it's sitting on shelves here untouched, and uncracked.
How often are you and the Managers of said store talking disdainfully of it where others can hear though?

When I was in the outlying city B&M store, we discussed it in front of anyone there. In terms of locally, people have been around, and haven't. Facts are facts, if the book is what it is, us discussing it or not, won't change that.

Scarab Sages

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
You're allowed to be wrong.
And you're insulting and rude.

It must be a mirror for you.

Edit: I must admit that it is telling that you consider being told you're wrong a personal attack.

Your responses are telling, to your lack of an argument. You're correct, because I'm not here attacking anyone, therefore why would I direct anything at an individual? I am debating the subject matter, which is the pricing of PDFs. But nice try, thanks for showing your true colors rather easily.

Scarab Sages

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I’m glad you’ve got such a wide variety of games to choose from. It’s certainly a much better time to be a gamer nowadays than it used to be.

I feel that we are in a gaming renaissance thankfully, I hope that it never ends. There are a plethora of fantasy RPGs available, and good ones at that. It's nice to have that flexibility thankfully.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
I suggest you not buy books you think are too expensive. (I think they’re too cheap).

Oh none of us will buy anything like this for sure. It's a tell tale way to push us to 5E easily, no matter how better we think the 2E system is. Or other systems to try out. Though I do have to reiterate, this belief is with the non-core books. I think Paizo could raise their core book PDF prices to $19.99, and should do so. I don't see them losing any revenue from it, as most gamers are used to that price point from many other games.

Scarab Sages

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Two of the largest, local B&M stores have 10+ here in stock each. Selling for $36.95 as well. Also it is available in multiple copies at various other stores, around 5 copies at each store.
And that's a major metropolitan city. So no idea what customers you're looking at that are having issues, it's sitting on shelves here untouched, and uncracked.

Scarab Sages

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
You're allowed to be wrong.

And you're insulting and rude. Which speaks volumes. You want to attack someone personally, then you have zero argument.

Scarab Sages

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I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth, again read what I wrote please. "I have yet to meet anyone..." meaning anyone I have interacted with up to this point. That's just relating experience, nothing more.
And again, the print run selling out, like I stated before with the comic book industry, is a falsehood. Selling product to a brick and mortar store, doesn't mean the product moves to customers. It means the STORE has the product. If a store doesn't see the product move past that, they won't reorder the same amount again. Which will mean Paizo doesn't make as much money. Amazon undercuts Paizo....that's considered undercutting?

Scarab Sages

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
My group learned LONG ago, buying the print copies was utterly pointless. The amount of info inside, if it isn't a core book, is never worth the price. The PDFs allow players to just cherry pick anything needed, for a fraction of the price. And obviously carrying around brick after brick of hardcover isn't easy either.
It absolutely has a point. You're players are welcome to draw incorrect conclusions of course.

Sorry if you're the thought police, and believe my players are drawing incorrect conclusions.

Scarab Sages

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The whole first print run of the World Guide has already sold out.

Same misconception with the comic industry.

Moving product to a store, versus it actually selling to customers.

Scarab Sages

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Arnim Thayer wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Arnim Thayer wrote:
...many Venture Lieutenants and Venture Agents feel compelled to purchase products to stay "up to date." While the requirement puts the onus of providing proof of game mechanics onto the player, a large majority of the VOs like to understand these in advance of being blind-sided with the latest feat, equipment or archetype at their table. Perhaps even more so than your average casual player, these VOs are the target audience for those pdfs.

Repeating my confession of PFS ignorance above, I don’t understand this bit.

If you felt compelled to buy these to “keep up” hasn’t your cost/year gone down? The Lost Omens subscription is going to work out cheaper than the Player Companion subscription was, isn’t it? (And definitely cheaper for those who were getting both the player companions and campaign setting books).

I can see why players who only bought one or two companions over the course of a few years might feel like the price has gone up, but if you’re a “get everything” person, my calculation has been that the overall cost of collecting is now less.

In the past, GMs and VOs could keep up with the amount of content through two methods: 1) cherrypicking, or 2) the extremely affordable nature of the pdfs. In the first, it came down to content. If you never run a scenario in Kaer Maga, there is little need to purchase the Campaign Setting book detailing it. And on the rare chance you do, you can either purchase that sourcebook (in either physical or digital form) or do a web search and see whaat information you find. The latter might produce a workable knowledge of the region, but purchasing the sourcebook allows the GM in inject a little more detail, scoured from the pages of Paizo’s impressive writing. In the second method, a GM/VO can have an much more portable copy of the exact source material at their finger tips, trading in pounds of pages for a far more accessible digital format. When it came to soft-bound books, sometimes having that...

My group learned LONG ago, buying the print copies was utterly pointless. The amount of info inside, if it isn't a core book, is never worth the price. The PDFs allow players to just cherry pick anything needed, for a fraction of the price. And obviously carrying around brick after brick of hardcover isn't easy either.

Scarab Sages

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The Lost Omens World Guide is only 136 pages.
Amazon.ca has the print copy book listed at $48.80....

Paizo will bury itself with their actions, and honestly let them. It is their choice for overpricing product, with little in it. I have yet to meet one person, that has looked inside the book, and gone "OMG that's amazing for that price!". Actually the complete opposite, including the store owners and managers.
Having the rules available online for free, is another reason NOT to purchase this. By your example, if there are only 25 pages of rules, why for any reason would I spend $25 on the pdf? Or $40+ for a print copy? For what, fluff and world building, which if you check that within the pages, is sparse, with more art included.
Now people have pushed back, stating that art is just as equal to any written content. Fine by me, we will see in time just how much money Paizo is making from this type of business plan, and how soon they drop the amount they are selling books of this size. Paizo only held the #1 spot over D&D for a short number of years, currently they are ranked #5 in overall sales. The next quarter, and ones after that, will tell the tale. (Star Wars is outselling it, as is Vampire!)

Scarab Sages

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Kalindlara wrote:

This reminds me of when there was a big push from some folks, a few years back, to judge the worth of video games based only on the hours of play they offered. The quality of the game, its art design, its play style and controls, its story, its attention to detail, its potential to inspire emotion or creative potential... irrelevant. The only thing these people wanted was a raw equation of hours of gaming per dollar spent.

Sometimes quality and presentation make a difference. And if that's a "ripoff", well... I really, honestly, do not know what to tell you. Your mindset is so different from my own that I'm not honestly sure how to communicate with you. :/

Oh wow, you brought this up? And have you seen what has happened SINCE that occurred? Exactly what was stated: games that were so highly priced, with little content, FAILED and DID NOT SELL. That is still here to this day, again, you HAVE to make an equation to content versus price point. (Trust me talk to people that worked on Fallout 76.)

A 15 hour game, that is priced at $60, will be called out and destroyed by everyone in reviews. Why? Because the OTHER $60 games, that have 80 hours involved, will just have people looking at it more.
Now yes we have to include quality of games into that for sure, but many gamers do not waste their money, and wait until sales for said $15 game instead of blowing their wallet out. Which means in the end, that $60 price point doesn't follow through.
As I stated before, your example doesn't equate, if a $100/10 page PDF was released, and it was considered "worthwhile" to you, would you purchase it? Probably not, the SAME LOGIC applies. It's worth of content versus price point. This is the basics of how most companies stick around the same price point to price their games. (As I said in another post, no one is surprised at large core books costing $19.99, it's expected and accepted.)

Scarab Sages

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LOL It's called he actually opened up one of the books, and simply looked at the product, rather simple actually.
Go ahead and take the hit, again as I said, that's their problem, not ours in undercutting themselves. I know exactly what they charge, you missed the point completely. No one would have knocked them for charging $19.99 for larger core books. Because that's an accepted price for that type of book from any other company.
I am referring to the Lost Omens Guide, and the amount of art found within, compared to written content. Since art seems to be a huge contention point in this.
Really, that's funny, want to check out the sales for the last little while, and where PF has slid to? You're more than welcome to look it up, and where they were at. If you think they aren't trying to compete, I have no clue what business sense you have.
Sigh...Art DOES facilitate it, but art ALONE isn't enough. And I'm sorry, I'm assuming that if there wasn't art, it wouldn't be filled with written content? Er ok what would it be filled with, white empty space?
Yes they do have both, however in the case of the Lost Omens Guide, there is WAY more art within, versus content for the price point and page count. We are talking about balance in totality here.
No we are paying for RPGs, exactly, that have a good amount of everything within. Not sparse written content, large amounts of art, and being overpriced for it.
Lots of reason to pirate, again you seem to missing things that I write for some reason. People don't buy the books for the RULES alone, they buy it for the information on the WORLD. Meat and bones, as stated.
The three books wouldn't come up to 600 pages either, do the addition please. 136x3 = 408 The attack point of this is Paizo simply splitting the book up, and jacking the price, instead of having it in a "core" book, and then only pricing it at $15. Simple numbers, why bother only putting out ONE $15 book, when you can gouge the customers for $25x3?
136 pages for that price point, doesn't compare to ANY other company's product. And you can go find any other product that has a bucket load of art as well if you want to get specific as was stated before.

Scarab Sages

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Cori Marie wrote:
First edition Campaign Setting Book pdfs were 64 pages for $15.99. This is 136 pages for $25.99. Now, I'm not a math major, but my handy dandy calculator tells me that 15.99/64 is almost 25 cents a page and that 25.99/136 is slightly more than 19 cents a page. Seems like the second edition book is actually a better deal, but maybe facts don't actually matter...

Facts totally matter, where did I mention at all that the 1E Campaign Books weren't total rip offs also? I was only dealing with 2E material, since 1E is long done with.

Scarab Sages

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Simple story to relate today, which proves my point.
Was out at the biggest gaming store in a city close by to mine. Every sort of gaming possible, including RPGs. (No surprise, the city houses one of the largest universities in our country. And a massive gaming community outside of mine.)
Saw the Lost Omens World Guide there, asked one of the managers, who's also the head of the RPG section to hand it over. Cracked it open to hear that it was fresh from the printer.
As I flipped through it, I just looked at him as his eyes sort of went wonky.
He started "That looks a little sparse in there."
"Yup, how much are you asking for this?"
"$44..."
I gave him that look. "You're asking that much for this book?"
We both had a chuckle.
His response "Looks like there's a lot of art in there, but not much content or writing. More like big font filling in pages."
Now you can believe me, or not and think this is just fluffing my point. That's up to you.

There is a reality to what occurred today. Yes Paizo's rules are all available online. Yes Paizo took a hit on their core books in the past, to help bring in new players.
But here are the facts, that's their mistake, not ours.
A usual core book PDF for any system is honestly expected around $19.99. No one would be surprised to pay that. If they decided to take the hit, and are now gouging for very little content, that's going to be their loss.
If Paizo thinks stuffing their books with a bucket load of art, and not having the content within equal pricing, especially versus other games, then they are in for a rude awakening. They already are behind in sales versus 5E, which is a juggernaut currently for a variety of reasons. And Paizo is trying to play catch up badly.
One of the things players want, is world building. Characters, countries, races, political movers and shakers, etc. The meat and bones of Golarion.
If the art is removing large portions of content, it isn't going to help in that. Yes it inspires, but it doesn't give the detail that a player wants to immerse in. Art helps move product, but content PLUS art is what makes it sell well. That includes maps, as much as they are fun and useful.
Writing matters, content matters, these aren't art books, they are RPGs.
If Paizo continues with this sort of alteration, they're going to take a huge hit in sales. And their material will increase in getting pirated. No one will dish out that level of cash, for that little material. They could have easily just merged the books together, instead of this plan. To me, and many others I have talked to, this is gouging, in an attempt to make up for the money they lost in their decisions prior. All I have to say is, good luck, they're going to need it.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky wrote:

You know almost all the written information goes up for free on the Archives of Nethys and the Pathfinderwiki right?

I’m not being gouged, art is one of the main reasons I buy Paizo’s product. A piece of art can convey just as much information as a written description can.

If all the info is going up on those sites for free, why would I pay so much in the first place? You are now just giving me reasons NOT to purchase Paizo content, and just use the sites beyond having a Core Book.

And the world building information does NOT go up on the sites. Just the rules that are posted. Again, sort of the reason you BUY a World Guide, it helps fill in the world you're playing in. A piece of art cannot convey the specific information that the extensive written content gives at length about the world.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
So I'm paying for a bunch of art pieces, and cartography?[/b]Very much so.[quoteWSo by stating that, you're saying that the Lost Omens book, has more filler, than solid content.
I beg your pardon.
Quote:

So instead of having a book filled with information (which is sort of needed for a world guide), they decided to hack it down, throw more art inside, and spread the info across three books. To gouge the customer more.

So basically Paizo is expecting us to pay for more pretty pictures, than content in their books.
Yes, they decided to gouge their customers by filling their books with beautiful art, art that costs highly more per page than the same amount of words would.

Yes, they are gouging their customers, by, instead of putting, you know, WRITTEN INFORMATION about the world, they just put art instead. Which reduces the amount of content in said book, and let's them spread it across three books.

But hey, this being an RPG, let's get less written content in our books....You'd think that maybe for a World Guide, we'd need more written content, then art.

Scarab Sages

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33 pieces of art in an 136 page book is... not a lot. At all.

Quote:
Art and cartography is way more expensive per square inch than text.
This. Oh so much.

Which tells you something about the two books.

The Gadget Guide is filled with more content, tightly packed into the pages.
The Lost Omens Guide, has more art filler put in, to not included as much content. Which lets them make the excuse of spreading said total Lost Omens info, across more books. And making you pay for it.
So instead of one book, packed with all the info, and having less art, they'll gouge us over three. Sketchy actions by Paizo IMO.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky wrote:
I’m curious, why does electronic versions of products have to be heavily discounted to be “sensible”?

Because it's on an electronic medium, and not in print. Paper has now basically become a luxury item. It's why print books are so insanely expensive to purchase. Hard covers even more so. Why many companies don't go the hardcover route anymore. And PoD (Print on Demand) often offer both hard and soft versions, for customers that don't wish to pay more. The production of a PDF, is vastly cheaper than having it printed out. Also saves on possible losses. If the print copy doesn't sell, what do you do with all that money spent? An electronic book, is just that, data online. As well, space concerns. People live in much smaller housing now, they can't afford to have it filled with numerous books. And why bother, you can read it on your computer, or put it on a larger screen as well.

It's just the way the world has shifted overall.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:

So I looked through the Gadget Guide for M&M and it’s pretty clear that the products aren’t analogous beyond being the same number of pages. That’s apart from the fact that GG came out five years ago (which may or may not make a difference, I haven’t looked at any recent Green Ronin products to compare).

I counted thirty three pieces of art in the entire book. The Lost Omens World Guide is packed with art and cartography - that would explain the difference on its own (I blew past thirty three pieces very quickly before I stopped counting).

Art and cartography is way more expensive per square inch than text.

So I'm paying for a bunch of art pieces, and cartography? You're joking. You think you can justify +$10 comparing both books, on THOSE grounds? And if that's the case, I can just keep throwing PDF example at you, that continues my point. I also love how you state that beyond the same page content, they aren't analogous. Uhm, the page count should MAKE THEM analogous. They are both supplement books for a core RPG, which means that makes them equatable.

The art REMOVES written content. The Gadget Guide is packed with more info easily.
So by stating that, you're saying that the Lost Omens book, has more filler, than solid content.
So instead of having a book filled with information (which is sort of needed for a world guide), they decided to hack it down, throw more art inside, and spread the info across three books. To gouge the customer more.
So basically Paizo is expecting us to pay for more pretty pictures, than content in their books.
Ah, point proven easily. Thanks for that, again.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
As for asking them, I rather be blunt and forward with what it exactly looks like. Ripping customers off for less content, or just not putting it out all together in one book. So that they can make more money off smaller bits of it.
I doubt you’ll get the answer you’re looking for then. Do you actually want to understand the reasons behind the pricing?

It's amazing that I have to "understand" the reasons behind the pricing. When I literally just showed you only ONE company, their product, and sensible pricing versus page count. Go to Drivethrurpg, look around, it isn't hard to compare. Again, it's THEIR problem, not ours, for pricing things incorrectly. We the consumer aren't the ones at fault, for complaining about it.

No you don’t “have to”... I asked you if you wanted to. It was a genuine question.

This is a weird conversation. I get the feeling you’re not reading what I’m saying but are just doggedly having an argument based on what you expect me to think.

I’ll repeat, I AGREE with you that it’s weird there’s no core campaign book.

I agree with Joana that the PDF pricing policy hasn’t changed (you do too now, right?)

Well if you think I'm just "doggedly having an argument" with you, I won't continue conversing with you. That's a quick way to just shut down a conversation at any point.

I don't expect you to think anything, I easily can point out facts, prices, etc.
I'm so happy Joana's PDF pricing policy hasn't changed, good for them.
HOWEVER, it's also easy to point out, that Paizo in this, is gouging their customers. Because they want to make more money from hiking smaller supplements. Than putting out one book for less, since it would be a core book.
Thanks for proving that point honestly quite clearly.

As well, it's easy to show other companies putting out the same level of content and quality, for a much less price value.
There is no reason a 136 page book, should be anything more than $15. None. $25 is price gouging at it's best. It should not be tolerated by anyone. I would be more than happy, to have Joana, or any official Paizo employee, try to prove that point anyday, anytime.
Because at that time, I will start listing PDF product, after product, from other companies. That makes their prices look ridiculous.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
It isn't like they were in a rush...

Err...they absolutely were. The whole company were working frantically to get 2E out the door and they didn’t quite manage to achieve what they wanted.

If this book had been the size of the ISWG, there’s no way they’d have been able to achieve it.

That's their problem, not ours.

We shouldn't have to pay through the teeth, because they can't get their product out in time, and at a level that equals content and pricing balance.

I don’t know if you’re following the argument. I was speculating as to why they didn’t release a campaign setting core book - because they didn’t have time. You said they weren’t in a rush, I pointed out they were...

I’m really not sure what “not my problem” even means in that context.

It’s not terribly important though - I’m not trying to change your mind in value or what you think they “should” have done. Merely pointing out, that their PDF pricing policy hasn’t really changed. I’m certainly not trying to argue you into anything.

Ok I see what you mean, here's my response to that.

If your company is in a rush, too bad. If the company screwed up, that's their problem.
The consumer shouldn't have to pay more for a company's screw ups, ever.
They should have produced ONE "core" Lost Omens World Guide, comprised of all three books' content. And released it at say, the end of October/beginning of December.
Instead they think releasing three books, at less content, and spiking the price, will work. It's easy to show how that doesn't, comparing it to any other company out there, with their pricing.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:

An easy example, as I was just purchasing this recently: Mutants & Masterminds 3E. Here are some PDF prices, rounded up for convenience sake.

Basic Hero's Handbook: 128 pages/$17
Power Profiles: 224 pages/$20
Rogue's Gallery: 174 pages/$18
Supernatural Sourcebook: 152 pages/$15
Gadget Guide: 136 pages/$16
Cosmic Handbook: 139 pages/$15
Hero High, Remastered: 176 pages/$18

Cheers. Just to be sure, those all feature the same amount of art, right? That’s one of the principal cost drivers.
Oh yeah, M&M never skimps on their art, their interior designing, all of it. Very bright, colorful, artistic, the whole nine yards. It's basically one of the main reasons, if you want to run superhero RPGs, M&M has been no.1 since their first edition. And continues to be so still.
Okay, I’ll go look at the gadget guide. That’s the best comparison by pagecount, I think.

Give it a whirl, one thing I love about M&M, is that every page is PACKED with info, as well as being engaging. Art, color, framing, all of it. Green Ronin is a MUCH smaller company than Paizo. They can put out this level of quality, for that cheap a price. They understand I feel that they can't waste space, time, etc.

While Paizo thinks they can gut customers for less content?
Yeah, that's not how business works guys. LOL

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

As another datapoint (to the point that this doesn’t represent a change in policy, just a characterisation of supplement vs core book):

This was the ISWG’s precursor a 256 page PDF for $35.

The Inner Sea World Guide was the exception, not the rule.

That price point is utterly disgusting, beyond belief.

Here's a close example to counter that.
Exalted Third Edition Supplement Book The Realm: 192 pages for $15 PDF. No lack of anything interior wise either.

There is NO chance that a 256 page book, is worth $35 as a PDF. That's what we call price gouging, pure and simple.

Well that was years ago.

I disagree again (I think it’s worth more) but I don’t have any interest arguing about value - that’s just a subjective judgement we all make.

My point though is that nothing has changed, the ISWG was an exception to their standard, established pricing model.

I rather utilize facts instead of subjective, which is why I compare prices and content of other companies. Numbers are numbers, business is business, plain and simple.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
As for asking them, I rather be blunt and forward with what it exactly looks like. Ripping customers off for less content, or just not putting it out all together in one book. So that they can make more money off smaller bits of it.
I doubt you’ll get the answer you’re looking for then. Do you actually want to understand the reasons behind the pricing?

It's amazing that I have to "understand" the reasons behind the pricing. When I literally just showed you only ONE company, their product, and sensible pricing versus page count. Go to Drivethrurpg, look around, it isn't hard to compare. Again, it's THEIR problem, not ours, for pricing things incorrectly. We the consumer aren't the ones at fault, for complaining about it.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
It isn't like they were in a rush...

Err...they absolutely were. The whole company were working frantically to get 2E out the door and they didn’t quite manage to achieve what they wanted.

If this book had been the size of the ISWG, there’s no way they’d have been able to achieve it.

That's their problem, not ours.

We shouldn't have to pay through the teeth, because they can't get their product out in time, and at a level that equals content and pricing balance.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:

As another datapoint (to the point that this doesn’t represent a change in policy, just a characterisation of supplement vs core book):

This was the ISWG’s precursor a 256 page PDF for $35.

The Inner Sea World Guide was the exception, not the rule.

That price point is utterly disgusting, beyond belief.

Here's a close example to counter that.
Exalted Third Edition Supplement Book The Realm: 192 pages for $15 PDF. No lack of anything interior wise either.

There is NO chance that a 256 page book, is worth $35 as a PDF. That's what we call price gouging, pure and simple.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:

An easy example, as I was just purchasing this recently: Mutants & Masterminds 3E. Here are some PDF prices, rounded up for convenience sake.

Basic Hero's Handbook: 128 pages/$17
Power Profiles: 224 pages/$20
Rogue's Gallery: 174 pages/$18
Supernatural Sourcebook: 152 pages/$15
Gadget Guide: 136 pages/$16
Cosmic Handbook: 139 pages/$15
Hero High, Remastered: 176 pages/$18

Cheers. Just to be sure, those all feature the same amount of art, right? That’s one of the principal cost drivers.

Oh yeah, M&M never skimps on their art, their interior designing, all of it. Very bright, colorful, artistic, the whole nine yards. It's basically one of the main reasons, if you want to run superhero RPGs, M&M has been no.1 since their first edition. And continues to be so still.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It isn't like they were in a rush, and it's obvious that this trilogy already was planned. As well, Books 2 & 3 are being released by January 2020.
As for asking them, I rather be blunt and forward with what it exactly looks like. Ripping customers off for less content, or just not putting it out all together in one book. So that they can make more money off smaller bits of it.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

An easy example, as I was just purchasing this recently: Mutants & Masterminds 3E. Here are some PDF prices, rounded up for convenience sake.

Basic Hero's Handbook: 128 pages/$17
Power Profiles: 224 pages/$20
Rogue's Gallery: 174 pages/$18
Supernatural Sourcebook: 152 pages/$15
Gadget Guide: 136 pages/$16
Cosmic Handbook: 139 pages/$15
Hero High, Remastered: 176 pages/$18

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Fair enough I altered my statement as it was mistaken, apologies.
Yes, interesting enough, they ONLY have core books. So basically Paizo is going to suck more money out of their customers, by making what should be a "core" book, into a setting book.
Ah, this just gets better to see the true facts here.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Hunters Moon wrote:
So basically you're telling me, since it's not a "core" book, Paizo can just pump out low page count material, and jack the price up as high as they want?

Well yes, they obviously can. I reject the premise though - they haven’t “jacked up” the price.

I’m surprised this isn’t a core book, fwiw, but given it’s not, I see it as in line with their other PDFs.

You realize just how sketchy you proved that is right? "It isn't a core book, but given it is not..." So because it isn't a core book, they just split it into three books, and spike the pricing up? You are proving my point rather clearly.

Scarab Sages

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Starfinder APs are NOT Pathfinder supplement books.
Again, as I stated, we are talking about a dramatic shift from pricing. As well as comparing it to other companies.
I don't understand why you are not reading that.

Scarab Sages

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So basically you're telling me, since it's not a "core" book, Paizo can just pump out low page count material, and jack the price up as high as they want?
Consistent with past practise? They have never put out such low page counts, for such high pricing. If I'm wrong, please show me so.

Scarab Sages

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I'll chime in since I was one of the most vocal against this type of pricing in the Lost Omens post. My concern is that their pricing isn't consistent with their general product pricing, nor comparing to most other companies around.
You don't have to bring up just Core Books, which fine they have put at a discount to grab the attention of newcomers to the hobby. At $15 they offer a bucket load for that price. However, other company's supplement books offer much more meat, and content, for their page counts easily.
As well, go over to Starfinder, and check out the pricing for all their core PDFs. ALL $9.99, doesn't matter the size of the book.
So give me one reason why this 136 page basically "core" book (since it is the Inner Sea Guide of 2E at the moment), is jacked to $25?
Also, consider buying this at a brick and mortar store, which it has just released in my area. In Canada, the local stores are selling this for $36.95 CAD. A hardcover 136 page book, for basically $40 when tax is included.
I can look around at so many other RPGs in the same section, and this pricing is laughable at best for the content size. Add to that, this is a trilogy of books. So for three books PDF wise, at 136 pages a shot, I'm going to be dropping $75 for PDFs alone? $120 for print copies? For in total 408 pages?
Oh, and for those shouting "QUALITY OVER CONTENT", please don't. There is a logical balance between the two, in terms of customer purchasing.
What's sad is, my group have been playing PF since literally day one that it dropped. (Basically went from 3.0, to 3.5, to Pathfinder.) They were wanting to transfer over to D&D 5E, after reading the beta test copy, finding too many issues in it. And having major concerns with where the product was going. (The word "glut" is best used to describe where 1E ended up. As well as horrendous rules additions over time, which broke the system more often than not.)
I was the one that bought the 2E core and bestiary, and convinced them to go back to Pathfinder. After informing them of the price points of these pdfs, they gave that deer in headlights look, then laughed. (We are talking gamers of over 25 years here.)
I will tell you right now, Paizo you are going to alienate, and push away your customer base if you continue this pricing plan. And to be honest, just increase the amount of pirating of your PDFs. Fewer, thicker, more quality books, will always get you more for the long run. Instead of continually pumping out book after book, of stuff that is rarely used.

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