Gurior's page

It doesn't even imply that you normaly can't take 10 without the feat

I'm cautiously pointing out that the fact that Pass for human (and now, also Quick change) specify you can take 10 on disguise check with those feat, intent to suggest that if this needs specification, it is because you cannot otherwise. So we disagree on that point.

It's not up to one feat to decide the core rules of an entire skill.

I do agree with you there. Despite the fact we now have two examples of feat specification stating when you CAN take 10 (implying normally you can't) the might be insufficient evidence to rule on the matter, as CampinCarl9127 pointed out.

The discussion on the previous pages (quoting rules of using skills in general) might offer a better interpretation of the rules than the two RAW counter-evidence of those specific feats.

A quick survey of the thread shows this hasn't been mentioned yet : the Pass for human feat, which states :

You receive a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to disguise yourself as a human, and do not receive the penalty for disguising yourself as a member of another race when you do so. In areas largely populated or settled by humans, you can take 10 on your Disguise check, meaning most people tend to assume you are human unless given a reason to think otherwise.

Emphasis mine.

Since specific trumps general, I would argue that in any other conditions you cannot take 10 on disguise checks.

However, it is possible that the feat might just be badly written (specifying you can take 10, when in fact you always can). We all remember Prone shooter...

511. The Uprising

The party travels to a large city and are shocked to discover that skeletal minions live among the populace. A local religious cult does a great job at selling and promoting the (surprisingly) cheap, replaceable, and tough working mindless creatures that never sleep, eat nor rest.

While at first a “new fashion” item to show-off by the nobility, the undead quickly gained popularity among the middle class as house-keepers and workers, while also serving as great fodder for the Arena. The events culminated into a recent slave&gladiator-freeing movement.

But not everybody approves of this, no matter the Good of successfully outlawing slavery or how great the newly-found prosperity of the city are. The local temple of Iomadae, along with a part of the populace, has a clearly established opinion on the matter: Raising the dead calls for unequivocally Evil magic, and the (seemingly) unending supply of dead bodies and onyx gems needed for the rituals is extremely suspicious at best.

The rising tension between these two parties is slowly escalating towards what will undoubtedly be a civil war. Little does anybody know, a long-deceased and forgotten Lich has recently woken from slumber, and is pulling the strings. While secretly providing the necessary materials for the animation of the dead, It is plotting to reclaim control of all the undead minions to massacre the whole city and create an army to conquer the continent.

As far as I understand it, summoned creature do not planar travel to answer a summon. What you call is a "projection" of the creature from its home plane.

If you want to move objects between planes using called creatures, my ruling would be to really have the creature itself planar travel, as with the spells planar binding and the like.

Which, incidently , explains why summoned creatures mostly have no problems obeying very dangerous or self-destructive orders. When the summoned creatures "dies", it just ends the summoning, and the creature gets (painfully) zapped back to what it was doing at home.

Risharc Moonblood wrote:

All valid points, to be sure. Hmm...I'll answer your question with a question then: how would Cerberus be able to use the environment to his advantage?

Cerberus has no advantage. He's a land-bound creature with limited capability to operate at any decent range (aside from his howl).

He is meant to be fought in a cavern where these are not disadvantages. Fighting him in an open plain where his gate can be seen from far away means he's fodder for a mid-level wizard (probably panicked for a few rounds then comes back, airborne, and destroys the puppy from above).

Putting him in a cavern (literally or figuratively using prismatic walls or other battlefield control magic) is about the only simple way to give him an environmental advantage that might let him live past the second round.

Hahaha, that puppy thing made me laugh :) !

but it does point out one of the sad truth in pathfinder : If there is an easy way to beat a monster, The player will use it without remorse, even if that goes against the spirit of the encounter (can't really blame them for that)

The Obscuring flame Starting AFTER the start of the first round is an option.

Stupid as it sounds, I never though of putting him in a cavern. That might be another way to go about it. Hell being "Divinely Morphic", I could find some way to justify the cavern to be "unalterable", were the players to try to re-mold the environment to their advantage.

I've also though of making the only way to pass though the Gate Cerberus is protecting to be brute force (...ridiculous level of brute force)
Which implies having to close in melee reach of the Gate to blast it. I though of adding a prisoner NPC (like an Elysian Titan) as a short side quest, which would be perfect for the battering-ram Job. The PC would then have no choice to engage in melee with Big C. in order to hold him off, during the few rounds the titan would need to bash open the gate. (as a 1v1 Titan vs Cerberus could very well go into Cerberus favor), And I can divide Cerberus Attacks between the Titan and the PCs.

Lastly, I need just a reason for NOT killing Cerberus Prior to bashing the Gate (which , we can't deny, would be the best way to go about it)

I've though maybe The act of outright Killing the Beast would enrage a Lord of Hell beyond measure, and convince the players that this isn't a wise thing to do, although just Holding off Cerberus (even putting him below 0 Hp and keeping it there) and forcing through the Gate would be a viable option.

Hi ! not sure if the advice forum is the appropriate place to ask for help DM'ing an adventure, but here it is :

Soon, I'm going to bring my players in an adventure through Hell in order to retrieve one of their captured companions.

Obvioulsly, it is played at high level (in the range of 18-20)

At some point, I want to have the party Fight Cerberus (as shown here). Which will guard a particular Portal leading to another destination in Hell.

however, In his description, Cerberus " never willingly moves more than 60 feet from the Gates[...] " Which I find is appropritate, And want to keep.
However, I'm having trouble imagining what kind of environnement to place around him that would prevent the group from simply hitting him from a safe distance until the beast in slain, then continue on their way. (the party, having a "full-archer", is fully capable of doing this)

I've thought that the plains around him could be heavyly covered in obcuring flames, but that dosen't prevent the players from flying above. If I obscure the Skies too, then that goes against my view of the encounter, where the Gate Cerberus is guarding is visible from far away.

I don't want either to force or imprison the players within 60 feet of Cerberus, as I want to leave them a way of escape if the fight goes badly.

Giving Big C. a fly speed dosen't adress the problem either.

I guess I could make it so the Gate he is protecting is un-passable were Cerberus to be slain, but I'm not sure that's the best approach.

Any ideas ?

Thanks :)

(edit: typos)