Defeating Uncanny Dodge


Rules Questions


From what I've read so far, I assume only Feint defeats Uncanny Dodge.
Shatter Defenses does not supersede Uncanny Dodge or affect those that are Immune to Fear.
Catch Off Guard doesn't work against Uncanny Dodge.
Impromptu Sneak Attack (Arcane Trickster) doesn't.
Want to make sure.


Dan Turek wrote:
From what I've read so far, I assume only Feint defeats Uncanny Dodge.

Feint defeats uncanny dodge, yes. But other things might make an opponent lose their dex bonus to AC without causing flat-footedness, like climbing.

Dan Turek wrote:
Shatter Defenses does not supersede Uncanny Dodge or affect those that are Immune to Fear.

True.

Dan Turek wrote:
Catch Off Guard doesn't work against Uncanny Dodge.

True.

Dan Turek wrote:
Impromptu Sneak Attack (Arcane Trickster) doesn't.

This one doesn't state flat-footedness, so it does defeat Uncanny Dodge.

Of course, if someone can find some rules text that says losing dexterity bonus to AC is always the same as being flat footed, nothing defeats uncanny dodge except immobilization and any condition that causes immobility.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Cowering and Stunned creatures will lose their Dex bonus to AC even if they have Uncanny Dodge.

Helpless and Paralyzed creatures cannot move, which for my money is just as good for making them vulnerable to sneak attack damage.


Paralysis is a cause of helplessness. It also immobilizes victims.

Perhaps uncanny dodge's wording was meant to be helpless instead of immobilized, because there's no such condition as immobilized.

Edit: actually, PRD mentions the word 'immobilized' only when it talks about uncanny dodge and once for monks. Still, I'd say a character is effectively immobile if helpless. (immobile as in unable to move under their own power and not as in stationary)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lehmuska wrote:

Paralysis is a cause of helplessness. It also immobilizes victims.

Perhaps uncanny dodge's wording was meant to be helpless instead of immobilized, because there's no such condition as immobilized.

Edit: actually, PRD mentions the word 'immobilized' only when it talks about uncanny dodge and once for monks. Still, I'd say a character is effectively immobile if helpless. (immobile as in unable to move under their own power and not as in stationary)

/agree, particularly the confusion over the nonexistent "immobilized" condition. Would have been nice for this little bit of textual nonsense to have been cleared up in the 3.5E -> PFRPG overhaul process.


Lehmuska wrote:


Of course, if someone can find some rules text that says losing dexterity bonus to AC is always the same as being flat footed, nothing defeats uncanny dodge except immobilization and any condition that causes immobility.

I like the idea that flat footed is different than losing Dexterity bonus. The rules imply they are the same. Page 195 Table 8-5 Invisible "The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC". Page 69 "cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible".


Rogue Talent: Ledge Walker makes it sound like you should still be denied Dexterity when using Acrobatics for narrow ledges, and similar to that would be using Climb, or doing the Run action without the Run feat.

Using Escape Artist to crawl through a tight space does NOT make you lose your Dexterity bonus.

A Pinned character is flat-footed and cannot move.

A Stunned creature loses its Dex bonus.

Flat-footed is a condition, page 567, that says you lose your Dex bonus to AC and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Uncanny Dodge says you cannot be caught Flat-footed.

Does that mean with Uncanny Dodge you CAN make attacks of opportunity even if you haven't acted yet in the first round of combat without Combat Reflexes?


Dan Turek wrote:

I like the idea that flat footed is different than losing Dexterity bonus. The rules imply they are the same. Page 195 Table 8-5 Invisible "The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC". Page 69 "cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible".

These two things are not reciprocals of each other.

The rule on page 69 for Uncanny Dodge says two things:
1. The rogue cannot be caught flatfooted when an enemy attacks first in a combat.
2. Even an invisible attacker cannot catch the rogue flatfooted by attacking first in the combat.

It is not meant to convey any misinterpretation that losing your DEX modifier is the same thing as being flatfooted.


Dan Turek wrote:

Does that mean with Uncanny Dodge you CAN make attacks of opportunity even if you haven't acted yet in the first round of combat without Combat Reflexes?

From the Flat Footed section of the Combat rules (pg.178): "Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat."


Dan Turek wrote:
Rogue Talent: Ledge Walker makes it sound like you should still be denied Dexterity when using Acrobatics for narrow ledges, and similar to that would be using Climb, or doing the Run action without the Run feat.

That is probably correct, though I think I would rule it that Ledgewalker prevents flatfootedness and loss of DEX, which I believe to be the intent of the rogue talent.

Dan Turek wrote:

Using Escape Artist to crawl through a tight space does NOT make you lose your Dexterity bonus.

A Pinned character is flat-footed and cannot move.

A Stunned creature loses its Dex bonus.

Flat-footed is a condition, page 567, that says you lose your Dex bonus to AC and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Uncanny Dodge says you cannot be caught Flat-footed.

Does that mean with Uncanny Dodge you CAN make attacks of opportunity even if you haven't acted yet in the first round of combat without Combat Reflexes?

Yes - since you are not flatfooted, the rules for being flatfooted don't apply to you. One of those rules is inability to make AoOs while flatfooted, which, doesn't apply because of your Uncanny Dodge.


DM_Blake wrote:
Dan Turek wrote:

I like the idea that flat footed is different than losing Dexterity bonus. The rules imply they are the same. Page 195 Table 8-5 Invisible "The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC". Page 69 "cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible".

These two things are not reciprocals of each other.

The rule on page 69 for Uncanny Dodge says two things:
1. The rogue cannot be caught flatfooted when an enemy attacks first in a combat.
2. Even an invisible attacker cannot catch the rogue flatfooted by attacking first in the combat.

It is not meant to convey any misinterpretation that losing your DEX modifier is the same thing as being flatfooted.

So that invisible creature attacks me, I am denied Dex but am not flat-footed? What does that mean? I lose my Dex but can make an attack of opportunity if I can somehow detect it? Or Uncanny Dodge still lets me keep my Dex even if the attacker is invisible?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dan Turek wrote:
So that invisible creature attacks me, I am denied Dex but am not flat-footed? What does that mean? I lose my Dex but can make an attack of opportunity if I can somehow detect it? Or Uncanny Dodge still lets me keep my Dex even if the attacker is invisible?

Uncanny Dodge means that conditions that would ordinarily render you flat-footed, do not. One of the penalties for being flat-footed is losing your Dex bonus to AC. Since you are not flat-footed, you do not lose your Dex bonus to AC in these conditions.

Other conditions and statuses (such as a foe being invisible) that would cause you to lose your Dex bonus to AC still cause that (see p. 567).


delabarre wrote:
Other conditions and statuses (such as a foe being invisible) that would cause you to lose your Dex bonus to AC still cause that (see p. 567).

That's somewhat contradictory to the Uncanny Dodge description:

PRD wrote:
She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

There appears to be a confusion in the rules. Invisibility doesn't cause you to be flat-footed, yet uncanny dodge appears to prevent you from being flat-footed from an invisible attacker. Does this imply that you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC if being hit by an invisible attacker or not?

The 3.5 text says:

3.5 SRD wrote:
She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

So 3.5 is actually clearer.

I'd say the intent is to retain the Dexterity bonus to AC if struck by an invisible attacker, but the wording isn't clear at all.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You can defeat uncanny dodge with a few flasks of oil.

Toss oil in the square the rogue is standing in you have denied him a dex bonus until he moves out of the area.

The Exchange

dulsin wrote:

You can defeat uncanny dodge with a few flasks of oil.

Toss oil in the square the rogue is standing in you have denied him a dex bonus until he moves out of the area.

Not for the little thieves that fly. :)


dulsin wrote:

You can defeat uncanny dodge with a few flasks of oil.

Toss oil in the square the rogue is standing in you have denied him a dex bonus until he moves out of the area.

uh-uh. Not with at least 5 ranks in acrobatics, (I would houserule that to be 5 virtual ranks, class skill bonus and feat bonuses count, since we lost 3 ranks in the conversion) a character with those ranks is not made flat-footed while 'balancing'


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Where is that ruling from? It is a new one to me.


... wow... I just checked the PRD and it seems that rule was yanked out of Pathfinder. I was quoting a common rule from 3.5, and one that I am definitely going to be keeping in my games.


meabolex wrote:
There appears to be a confusion in the rules. Invisibility doesn't cause you to be flat-footed, yet uncanny dodge appears to prevent you from being flat-footed from an invisible attacker. Does this imply that you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC if being hit by an invisible attacker or not?

Not quite.

Uncanny Dodge prevents you from being flat-footed by any attacker, even if that attacker is invisible.

There is a subtle difference there.

Your interpretation presumes that invisibility causes flatfootedness, whereas my revised interpretaion does not.

An invisible attacker often attacks first in a surprise round because if you didn't know he was there, then you haven't yet rolled initiative or taken a combat turn. When this happens, you're flatfooted because you haven't had a turn yet, not because he's invisible.

Otherwise, you merely lose your DEX mod. You are not flatfooted automtically just because he's invisible. So, for example, if the invisible attacker has Greater Invisibility, then after he surprises you, it's your turn but he's still invisible. You do whatever you do, then on his turn, he can attack you again, still invisible, but you are definitely not flatfooted. You do still lose your DEX against his attacks, but that is, at least, a little different.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
Otherwise, you merely lose your DEX mod. You are not flatfooted automtically just because he's invisible. So, for example, if the invisible attacker has Greater Invisibility, then after he surprises you, it's your turn but he's still invisible. You do whatever you do, then on his turn, he can attack you again, still invisible, but you are definitely not flatfooted. You do still lose your DEX against his attacks, but that is, at least, a little different.

Right.

Other conditions that cause a creature to lose their Dex bonus to AC (and against which Uncanny Dodge does NOT protect) are "cowering" and "stunned."

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