Thrune Agent

Grandis's page

21 posts. Alias of Sean Brinson.


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Basically just pathfinder society in general. Right now I've only done a few chronicles, my unchained rogue will only be 3rd level after one or two more. I like it though, it's a nice change, my old group IRL all graduated college and move around, and like I said small Texas town. Not a lot of us here.

So far I've done... Consortium Compact, Scions of the Sky, Mysteries under Moonlight, Frozen Fingers of Midnight.


Glen Parnell wrote:
Have you checked out the Cosmic Crit Discord? Or the Roll 20 Starfinders Discord? or the general Org Play Discord?

Org play is the one I've been using, but I've not heard about the others. I only recently found out that PFS plays online and gotten into it. Does the Cosmic Crit discord play PFS? I'm not really interested in Starfinder tbh, mostly pathfinder.


Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
So would you find it believable for an intelligent quadruped to wield a weapon in its mouth?
Believable, no. But this a game with flying dragons the size of houses and heroes who can kill them...casters who can bend reality to their whim...so in this context, with enough feat investment, sure.

I'd argue the issue is that it's not even really believable in the fantasy universe of pathfinder. No matter where you go in all the planes, a dog is still a dog. A fighter can get polymorphed into a dog, sure, and he'd have the knowledge of "This is a sword, I can probably run it into that guy awkwardly if I pick it up in my mouth" but he'd likely have the sense to go "NOW I HAVE BIG SHARP TEETH RAWRAWRAWR" due to his experience, seeing as he's a DOG now, and his stats reflect that. Even if you had 24 strength before being polymorphed, a dog does NOT have 24 strength, and it would be "unbelievable" for a dog to perform a herculean feat of strength. Even if you had a 18,000 year old wizard, who traveled beyond infinity (like Zon'Kuthon), he would think it strange if a dog who suddenly performed a feat of strength like he had 24 STR.


Title functionally says it all, I'm looking for a group that plays pathfinder society using Roll20. I live in the middle of no where in Texas, so I can't reliably go to PFS events currently. Nearest one is San Antonio (I think) which is a good 4 hours away from me.

I've been playing a bit with guys from a discord group, but the discord's getting too PC for my tastes.


Hmmmm. Well if you wanted to just be lore link, it doesn't seem that hard to make. Link's main thing is being the Hero of Time, which gifts him with the combat and life experience of all the past incarnations of the Hero of Time. That translates into Link being naturally proficient to the point of mastery with pretty any weapon he gets his hands on, regardless of it's uniqueness, as though he'd trained with it all his life, and naturally be stronger, faster and more intuitive than normal people.

Of course that doesn't benefit him though when it comes to anything not related to combat as he only gets their EXPERIENCES, not their memories, and he's very much a mortal. So link probably wouldn't have much in the way of Cha or Con, but his Str, Dex, Int and Wisdom would all be pretty good. The way I see it, that would mean you need to meet the following:

- Wear exclusively Light or Medium armor (Link wears a tunic).
- Longsword + Heavy steel shield, longbow
- Have decent to high skill ranks for Perception, Survival, Swimming, Climbing, Riding, Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Planes, Dungeoneering, Engineering), Sense Motive, Spellcraft and UMD.
- Whirlwind attack, Spring Attack
- Be able to transform into a wolf (maybe dire wolf?)

I dunno how druids work, but all that can be accomplished with a straight up fighter.


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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Jeven wrote:

I pity the wolf that encounters a flock of longsword-wielding intelligent sheep!

As a rule of thumb, if the aesthetics seem silly you probably shouldn't do it.

I don’t really like that rule of thumb, because how silly something seems is entirely how it is presented.

For instance:

You see an awakened kitten riding on the head of a red dragon, commanding it with a squeeky voice to destroy all the puppies.

Vs

You see a kitten riding on the head of a red dragon, but something seems off. It is almost as if your eyes are trying to tell you it is heavier than you think. It opens its mouth and starts to speak. The dragon trembles at the sound, terrified of its master, and is quick to follow the commands given to it.

One of those is silly, the other serious, but they are the same situation.

I think you need to define "Silly" as your not getting his argument. (I can't believe I'm about to say this) The Disney film makes sense (HRRRRNG) BECAUSE it is a quadrupedal horse. If you get polymorphed into a dog, you still retain your intelligence, yes? But you do NOT retain your thumbs, and you've spent your entire life moving (presumably) as a bipedal organism. Ever try to walk around on all fours? It's DAMNED difficult because of our bipedal body structure. If you do, however, find yourself polymorphed into a dog, and a sword is lying around... Yeah you could pick it up and try to stab someone with it. BUT in that same vein, you'd likely take massive penalties, due to not having any idea how to fight with something held in your mouth like that. Even assuming you've had a lifetime of training, that training was to fight sword in hand, standing up right, and potentially how to defend yourself if knocked down and trying to get back up... not sword in teeth and on all fours.

"Silly" in this context is closer to "unrealistic" in meaning, rather than "goofy".


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Todd Stewart wrote:

Because, lowly freelancer though I may be, I need to be like all of the cool kids with one of these threads all my own!

...and my brain needs a break from planning horrors and wonders to throw at my players in a campaign I'm starting soon, so consider the floor open for any questions.

:D

Oh thank you sir! I'll just copy and paste the initial post I made in the wrong thread.

------------------------------
So I'm getting ready to run a one shot campaign that I hope to make into a 3 part, or more. I've got some of the stuff down, but I'm running into an issue with some of the locations and stat blocks.

Campaign setting is basically a small party of evil PC's have been tasked by Garyon to infiltrate Nirvana and place "The Great Lie" in the heart of Eritrice's domain. I've expanded on her lore so that she's secretly and unknowingly a rogue avatar of Garyon, possessing a sizable chunk of his power, and he wants to reclaim it now that he's aware of it. To do this, he has the PC's plant the great lie, which is in the form of a black rose, in her Garden of Truth.

Problem is there's very little information on most of the sub area's in Elysium and Nirvana, and I want to give some life to the zone. I'm avoiding the whole "bust down the wall and slaughter the villagers" stereotype but I want the party to have opportunities to commit acts that will please Garyon. I've got an alarm level system built for it, where each act they do can gain favor with the arch devil, lose favor if they fail, and raise the level of awareness that the denizens of the planes have. To make this work though, I really need some more information on the areas within the zone. I've been drawing most of my info from Inner Sea God's, Chronicles of the Righteous and Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond, but you'd be surprised at how little there is.

Can anyone give me some details on any of the locations on the map in Elysium/Nirvana, or just the ones listed on the wiki? I've got a few months before I want to run it.


Jared Walter 356 wrote:

Couple of things coming in to play here:

#1) Large Weapon is a -2 to hit Core Rulebook pg144 inappropriately sized weapons so: +4 (str) (+4 BAB) +1 (magic) -2 size difference)= +7

#2) Power attack bonus damage is x1.5 for two-handed weapons: Core Rulebook pg 131 Power Attack.

The normal attack for this character is as listed
Power Attack would be -2 to hit and +6 to damage (+5 @ 2d8+13)

Ah, I forgot about the 1.5 for two handed weapons. Thanks mate!


So I'm going to play one of the Iconics (Level 4 Barb) in an upcoming level 4 PFS campaign and I noticed something on the character sheet, specifically that the math doesn't seem to add up right.

The character sheet has "Melee +1 Large bastard sword +7 (2d8+7/19–20)" for the melee weapon, and says that the character can power attack at -2 attack rolls, with +6 damage rolls (+6, not +4, dunno why). The character has 18 strength and full BAB and has to wield the weapon 2handed since it's a bastard sword made for a large creature.

Adding these up, 4 strength, 4 BAB and +1 weapon results in +9 to hit, which would then take -2 thanks to power attack, so I assumed this melee roll was while power attacking... But then I realized that the damage is off. Damage should be 6 from strength and a half, 1 from the +1 weapon, and 4 from power attack resulting in 2d8+11. 2d8+7 should be the damage WITHOUT power attack, but then the bonus to hit should be +9.

Not to mention that the power attack for some reason says that it gives a -2/+6 at level 4 according to the pregen character sheet, which I know is wrong... Am I just reading this sheet wrong?


Melkiador wrote:
OmniMage wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but this all sounds like a whole lot of noise. When people argue this much. Maybe its time to let this tread die.
Welcome to the rules forum. And goodbye from the rules forum.

Dude, you don't have a leg to stand on. Smallest dogs always bark the loudest.


avr wrote:
The 'chemicals' used to embalm mummies were spices, honey and incense. Bad smells would not be a problem.

Not for the first several hundred years, but after a point the corpse would get a very musky smell to it. If you've ever been around fresh taxidermy, it's kind of like that.


Rysky wrote:
Where was this stated?

In the books "Pathfinder Chronicle: Book of the Damned". Specifically in "Volume One: Princes of Darkness".

Rysky wrote:
Is it?

Yes. Every source containing information on Ragathiel states this, from all the way back to Inner Sea God's and Chronicle of the Righteous to his profile in Bestiary 6. They gave him the title "General of Vengeance" as well, and it flat out states that their only issue with him is that he's "more violent than they would like". Also says he has a nifty fortress made to withstand a 1000 year siege.

Rysky wrote:
*points at Asmodeus, Baalzebub, Moloch, Mammon and the Erinyes*

Yes, every Arch-Devil is a unique existence. Though several of them have had their lore changed slightly or just leaves us with more questions than answers (Mammon's lore in I believe Champions of Corruption claims that he's the physical manifestation of Hell itself, but everything else including Bestiary 6 claims he's a fallen angel) every single one of them is a unique existence. And I did just go check Book of the Damned, it calls him a fallen angel as far back as that, so we've found another one of the four. The Erinyes, however, are strictly devil's. They are very plainly stated to be "fiends created in mockery of the angelic form with a beauty that belies their utterly sadistic, evil nature. They are the avengers and executioners of Hell" in Book of the Damned and Bestiary 1.

Rysky wrote:
Where does it state that Ragathiel is half-angel?

Ragiethiel is the son of Dispater (who is a fallen angel) and Feronia (A Demigoddess of Fire from the plane of Fire) named in the Book of the Damned. Ragathiel's stat block in Bestiary 6, page 114 explicitly gives him the following typing: LG Huge outsider (angel, extraplanar, good, lawful) Furthermore, his stat block includes the following special ability: Righteous Mantle (Ex) Ragathiel inherited an affinity for fire from his mother. Fire heals Ragathiel a number of hit points equal to the amount of damage it would have dealt. Any fire damage dealt by Ragathiel ignores evil outsiders’ fire resistance and immunity to fire, and deals double damage to devils. Ragathiel gains a sacred bonus to Armor Class equal to his Charisma bonus. Whenever Ragathiel receives magical healing, he has 2 additional hit points restored per die rolled.

This means that he is very clearly half angel, half fire elemental, unless you want to claim that this information insinuates that his mother was an angel or something else. Considering that she is described as, and I quote verbatim "a little known demigoddess from the elemental plane of fire", and FIRE ELEMENTALS live on the plane of fire, I'd say that pretty heavily shows that she is a fire elemental. There is nothing that states that she is or isn't a fire elemental beyond that, but IF we are going to use that logic to say she's something else, then I nominate that she is in fact a godly gremlin. Ragathiel is from this point on, half God Gremlin, Half Angel. However, if you use reading comprehension, then you can clearly make an inference on what he is half and half of, by who his parents are and what they are and were in lore. By technical standards, Ragathiel would be a half FALLEN/Infernal corrupted angel, and half Fire Elemental. By categorization and game play standards, he's an Angel and Dispater is a devil because it would be a headache to make another sub type just for them.

Rysky wrote:
Nothing in Dispater's stat block has him being angelic anything, which is what I was getting at.

You're discounting his lore, and word of god. In "Kobold Quarterly #23" F. Wesley Schneider wrote an article about Dispater where he states the following: "Dispater is a fallen angel, originally the lieutenant of Baalzebul, who in turn was the champion of Asmodeus. Following his war against Ihys, when Asmodeus led his host to Hell in the Exodus, Dispater fell with his commander, and was rewarded for his loyalty with the status of Lord of the Second." Schneider was editor in chief of Paizo in 2012 when this was written, though he left Paizo in 2017. Unless they've retconned this in recent years, it's still true. Also, this came out slightly after Redemption Engine.

Rysky wrote:
Divine Anthology explicitly states he turned away from Evil. He started out not-Good, and rose.

Turned away from evil does not mean "Redeemed" nor does it mean that he was ever a devil. Though it does seem as though he's had several ret-cons and changes here and there, as Book of the Damned says that his mother took him from hell "As a babe" but newer lore, citing bestiary 6, states that He rejected his father’s evil, losing his sixth wing to the archdevil’s wrath, and escaped to Heaven, where he spent several millennia attempting to prove himself to the heavenly hosts and the other empyreal lords." which indicates that he was born and raised in Hell for several hundred years, and didn't leave until he was at least old enough to SURVIVE Dispater attacking him. Similarly, earlier lore seems to indicate that Dispater is on good terms with Feronia, and even says that they correspond once a year but never meet in person out of respect for his current wife, which would make sense if she took Ragathiel out of hell when he was a baby. Admittedly we know very little about her personality, but I'm erring on the side of her not being friendly with Dispater if he ripped Ragathiel's wing off like that. Seems like a pretty serious dick move to me, but I've seen stranger things come out of Paizo's writing.

Rysky wrote:
I have not referenced any third party materials, and the Pathfinder Tales line of novels are very much not third party. They're canon (and have been referenced in supplements) until designers say otherwise.

If they are, then I'm going to default to two rules of thumb:

1 - New lore trumps old lore when in conflict. Bestiary 6 is the newest lore that I know of for Ragathiel, and Redemption Engine (Which I have not read) came out in 2011.
2 - Someone find the quotes regarding Ragathiel in Redemption engine. If Ragathiel himself claims he is a redeemed former devil, or a credible character directly states it, then it could be considered to have credibility. If instead one of the apparently "redeemed devils" claims that Ragathiel is or could be a redeemed devil, then I'm going to leave it as unconfirmed rumor with little basis. This would probably be a good letter to send in to Paizo, actually, ask for confirmation about Ragathiel's lineage in regards to changes or holes in the lore. My nomination of him being half god gremlin still stands.

Rysky wrote:
Where the former is an Angel and the latter is a Devil, not a Redeemed Devil and Fallen Angel.

Once again, don't ignore the lore. Question inconsistencies in the lore, absolutely, but do not ignore it.


Readerbreeder wrote:
Grandis wrote:
Like, your actions in the game should have consequences. They don't need to be on the level of butterfly effect or that stepping on a blade of grass so drastically changes the future so that monkeys rule the earth, but there does need to be some ramification, a logical reaction by the world your PC inhabits, to the PC's various actions and behaviors. If I play a necromancer (Which I do from time to time, chaotic neutral) I usually have to role play in a way where I have to hide my undead minions outside of towns, or not talk during specific dialogues, because MY character's actions of resurrecting 10 dead bodies in the town as undead minions to fight off the bandits trying to murder everyone in the town, even if for a good cause, just doesn't usually gel well with the families of those dead bodies. And sure, my character can react however he wants to, but I can't just expect to get away with some wonky anime haired protagonist BS. And I don't mind crazy like this ON OCCASION, it's when that is their sole style of play that I don't like it. Like the guy that genuinely thinks lawful-good = lawful stupid, and makes the now famous quote to paladin players "you can do what the law says, I'LL do what's right", I'd love to meet anyone who would never get tired of playing with that guy.
Agreed 100%, though in my mind, assigning consequences to player actions is more of a GM's construct than that of the game system. Systems that create "one man armies", however, do seem to enable players with a Gawd Complex more than others.

I don't think I would call it a god complex, as much as I would just call it being spoiled and lacking a real understanding of consequence. Like, the more of these players I encounter, the more I imagine their parents never told them "no" or disciplined them when they did something wrong. My mother tanned my hide when I was a little turd, so I learned my manners. I've gotten to know a few of these types IRL while I was in college, and I noticed that it wasn't just in game that they held this type of thinking. It's just how they think in general.


And I'm going to add that of the 89 instances in which the word "DC" and the 18 instances that the word "Increase" appears in the rules for magic item creation, the ONLY instance in which they are used together in any phrase or sentence which equates to "Increasing the DC" appears in this exact quote, from the same subsection above but four paragraphs further "This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5." which specifically references the 8 hours of crafting time per 1000 gp rule, and allows one to shorten it to 4 hours per day. The ONLY other time anything near this appears is in my earlier quote "The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." which as I already stated directly references a situation in which a creator does not meet a requirement for crafting an item is receiving aid from another person who does meet that requirement.


Melkiador wrote:
Sean Brinson wrote:


I'm gonna be honest with you, I would never allow you to skimp on materials to create a magic item like that. Despite the insistence that you can raise the DC by 5 and ignore requirements, I have never seen or found that rule and I'm pretty sure that it's nothing more than a widely used house rule.

My quotes are almost always from the official PRD, but it's easy enough to find that rule in the Core Rulebook:

-Page 549.
-First full paragraph on that page.
-Middle of that paragraph.

Ok dude, you need to stop and read very closely the content of the link you provided. It is the EXACT SAME RULE that I directly quoted above, I literally copied and pasted it from the SRD. I'm going to quote it again and walk you through it.

The section is divided into 8 sub sections, IN THIS ORDER: Aura, Caster Level, Slot, Price, Weight, Description, Construction, and Requirements. The REQUIREMENTS sub section reads exactly this:

"Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known.

Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. the cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components."

And the next section after that is MAGIC ITEM CREATION. The FIRST TWO PARAGRAPHS say the following:

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item’s creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

This means that the person crafting the item MUST meet the prerequisites, and the DC increases by 5 if he achieves these prerequisites by receiving AID FROM SOMEONE ELSE who meets those prerequisites. This is why the requirement section specifically says "If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known." Of the two of you, the CREATOR must be "good" is a requirement for this item (Holy Avenger). Therefor, if a Lawful Neutral Cleric and a Chaotic Good Wizard work together to craft a "Holy Avenger" they have to determine that the WIZARD is the creator. The WIZARD cannot cast Holy Aura, that is what the Cleric is assisting him in, and the WIZARD will then have to increase the craft DC by 5 since he, as the CREATOR, does not meet the requirement of "be able to cast Holy Aura".

Reading comprehension is important. Please. Learn it. Before the next time you speak. Because you are talking down to everyone else here who has provided direct links to rules, FAQ's and Errata's, and even quoted them VERBATIM, and even done this while providing a link to a section that literally says the OPPOSITE of what you claim it does. You have no idea how asinine that is, that is clear.


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Rysky wrote:
Sean Brinson wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Sean Brinson wrote:
Haladir wrote:
The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.

Just want to correct this, Ragathiel isn't a "redeemed" devil. His story is more or less a "sin's of the father" thing as he's the son of Dispater, who is a fallen angel, and a fire goddess who afaik is only mentioned as his mother. By all accounts, he's an angel. Possibly half fire elemental I guess, his mom's only info is that she is a fire goddess who was "native to the plane of fire". He's probably influenced by this corruption though, since his lore says he fights against his baser urges constantly, and is always supremely pissed off.

Devil's that are "created" are pretty much elusively devil's, but the ones who were originally angels are basically super corrupt angels, but still technically angels.

He's been explicitly called an Ascended Devil.
Where, and by whom? Especially given that he's officially been stated in Bestiary 6, where his stats including no infernal, abyssal, daemonic or otherwise. He's got "Fire", "Extraplanar" and "Angel" which only further supports that he's half angel half fire elemental. It is still said that he's "More violent than the other celestial would like" and the such, which may owe to either him being born and spending a few hundred years in Hell, or to him being the direct son of one of the most powerful Arch Devil's. But again, his dad is explicitly stated to be a fallen angel. He's fundamentally different from any being created as a Devil.

And his dad is explicitly a Devil in his statblock.

I could have sworn James Jacobs said he was but I can't find the post now, and the next closest thing is a post from over 2 years ago where he says he doesn't count Ragathiel as a Redeemed Fiend. I'll keep looking though, that's gonna bug me.

Also Divine Anthology calls out that he turned away from evil to become what he is.

Sigh. Listen to what I am saying, step by step.

1 - Yes, his dad is a devil, and his dad's lore specifically states that he was an Angel, and is one of exactly four former Celestials who "Fell from heaven with Asmodeas" We know that Barbatos was a celestial of some kind BUT did not fall with Asmodeas, only appearing after the original Lord of the First (Typhon) was killed by Ragathiel. We also know that Moloch was an Archon, while the identities of the other two fallen angels are unknown afaik. I believe one of the Whore Queens was also mentioned as being a former angel, but I can't find anything to confirm that so I'm going to assume it's just speculation.

2 - The existence of a FALLEN CELESTIAL is extremely unique and quite different from other "devils" who were created or born in hell as Devils. Especially the particularly powerful angels/celestials like Dispater and Moloch.

3 - Ragathiels lore explicitly states that his mother is a fire goddess from the fire elemental plane. It also says he fled hell after Dispater ripped off his 6th wing, and that this occurred only several hundred years into his life. It then goes on to state that it took him thousands of years of service to EARN THE TRUST OF THE CELESTIAL FORCES, but now they trust him completely, and their only issue with him is that he's more violent and angry than they would like. As far as his lore and profile are concerned, he has inherited angelic powers from his father, and fire elemental powers from his mother.

This means that Ragathiel is HALF FIRE ELEMENTAL, HALF ANGEL. Dispater is a UNIQUE EXISTENCE, unlike ANY other devil in the entirety of the game. He is a FALLEN ANGEL. Pragmatically it makes sense that he would be typed as a "Devil" and not a "Fallen Angel", since he's been corrupted to a simply unimaginable degree, but that does not change the nature of his existence. It also does not change that while he conceived Ragathiel well after he became a devil, that Ragithial being born as a half breed Fire Elemental Angel proves that fundamentally, Dispater is STILL an angel. A fallen angel is STILL an angel, just a super corrupt one. Ragathiel never had to "redeem" himself because he never "Fell". He had to PROVE himself, because he's the direct son of the Lord of the Second Hell, and was BORN AND RAISED in Hell. That's significantly different from being redeemed and changed from being a devil. It is also shown that Ragathiel is far more violent and angry than other angels, and that is likely because his father is a fallen angel/devil. But that means that Ragathiel is not an example of any redeemed angel or devil.

Finally, I wouldn't trust the third party stuff in the first place,and that includes novels. Third party sources have literally given us Lucifer as a CR 40 stated monster, and tend to play hard and fast with established lore to the point of making mary sue type characters. Functionally, we know for an absolute fact that angels and other celestial beings can be corrupted into devils and demons since that happened to Barbatos, Moloch and Dispater. Therefor, it makes perfect logical sense that Devil's and Demons can also be "purified" into Celestials. It must be damn hard to do, because it's damn hard to "Fall" in the first place. Like I said, we only know of 4 Celestials who fell along with Asmodeus, and we only know two of them, and the only other example that I know of is Barbatos. That makes 5 examples of fallen celestials total. It's fine to play around with the idea, but the evidence suggests pretty heavily that it would be at least twice as hard to purify oneself from infernal corruption as it is to fall to it in the first place.

And for sources, I'm drawing off "Chronicles of the Righteous", "Inner Sea Gods", "The Great Beyond: A Guide to the Multiverse", and "Bestiary 6", where Ragathiel AND Dispater have both been officially given stat blocks as CR26 and CR27 creatures.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The cause of a dead body beginning to smell is mostly two things. The first is bacteria breaking down the body. The second is maggots consuming the body. Once the body has decomposed the smell becomes a lot less potent. While an older corpse may not smell pleasant it will not have the stench of a decomposing corpse. Undead that have been around long enough to dry up will not smell anywhere near as bad as a fresh corpse.

An undead with a strong negative energy connection my actually prevent the body from decomposing. Bacteria and insects are still living thing. If the undead causes negative energy damage to anything touching it the bacteria and insects will not be able to survive and the body will not experience normal decay.

In some cases the nature of the undead will preserve the body. Vampires for example are for the most part not depicted as being rotting corpses. Mummies have been preserved and usually wrapped so would also probably not have the same amount of stench as some undead.

Last but not least is the fact that undead are not dead. The negative energy that animates also preserves them. If it did not eventually all undead would end up a looking like skeletons. Their flesh does not decay because it is not dead.

Any or all of these reason would explain why not all undead stink.

Mummies would smell of chemicals though, as the embalming process involved a lot of preservatives. That being said, yeah decomposition is pretty much the sole cause of the stench, and unless a corpse is freshly dead and rotting it ain't gonna stink.


Uh... Even in Cheliax, it's a crime to punch someone randomly in the streets. The question is WHY you are punching them, and how much, that leads to legality.

In Mendev, you'll probably be in trouble for being involved in a fight where you defended yourself against muggers if it drags into any sort of public eye.

In Cheliax, you'll be in trouble if your fight causes any public damage, or occurs to frequently, or just in the general vicinity of someone in a bad mood.

In Avistan, you're going to be expected to simply handle yourself in a duel you started, but do so in a manner of honor.

Most everywhere else, it's simply a matter of "don't pick fights with non-a~%#*@*s, don't be a bully."


Readerbreeder wrote:
Sean Brinson wrote:
Like. I have a friend who genuinely hates combat and exp in pathfinder, he thinks it takes away from the game, but he likes inspiration points because "They make the game interesting". A game where you can role play an adventuring wielder of reality warping magic, and an inter-dimensional corpse bamfing into your dimension to grab a random peasant and pull him to the negative energy plane to chase him like a horror movie slasher villain out of it's sheer hatred of the living is not only accepted as a possibility, but a fairly normal occurrence... Is not interesting to this man. That's not a problem Paizo needs to address, that's a problem with the player, as I can tell you he does not make characters that mesh well with the world (his current character is a wizard, who worships zon kuthon, and is a "emo goth poser". Which to him, translates into only preparing pit, grease, invisibility and enlarge person, and sitting in the back whining about how the universe is pain while invisible.) and honestly, it only creates real problems when the developer tries to cater to this mindset.

Most of us have run into "that guy" at our gaming tables, whose play style is radically different from what the rest want or expect. You may have been most comfortable (assuming you were there to be so) working with 1st edition AD&D, which, if published adventures are any indication, required a lot more teamwork and planning within the party than you generally see anymore. Though even then, I have seen an interview by Tracy Hickman (who co-wrote the original Dragonlance books and the original I6 Ravenloft module) talk about pulling a "Leroy Jenkins" on a party he played with, so maybe it's more the player type that the game at large.

May I also suggest that you may find this article on EN World an interesting read. It seems to be saying many of the same things you are, from a game...

Functionally, yep. Though it doesn't address the issue I see, or rather maybe it doesn't quite see it the same way I do. The problem isn't that players are one man armies, PC's are supposed to be adventurers and functionally a single adventurer is equal to several NPC's or monsters, except the unnaturally powerful ones in which case a group of adventurers is often equal to one of them. The problem I see is that these players often have an unrealistic expectation to how their character should interact with the world around them.

Like, your actions in the game should have consequences. They don't need to be on the level of butterfly effect or that stepping on a blade of grass so drastically changes the future so that monkeys rule the earth, but there does need to be some ramification, a logical reaction by the world your PC inhabits, to the PC's various actions and behaviors. If I play a necromancer (Which I do from time to time, chaotic neutral) I usually have to role play in a way where I have to hide my undead minions outside of towns, or not talk during specific dialogues, because MY character's actions of resurrecting 10 dead bodies in the town as undead minions to fight off the bandits trying to murder everyone in the town, even if for a good cause, just doesn't usually gel well with the families of those dead bodies. And sure, my character can react however he wants to, but I can't just expect to get away with some wonky anime haired protagonist BS. And I don't mind crazy like this ON OCCASION, it's when that is their sole style of play that I don't like it. Like the guy that genuinely thinks lawful-good = lawful stupid, and makes the now famous quote to paladin players "you can do what the law says, I'LL do what's right", I'd love to meet anyone who would never get tired of playing with that guy.


Depends on a lot of factors, like how much exp your party is getting per monster encounter. If your party has stronger gear, or is specialized for combat, you could be sending stronger monsters at them, which would mean more exp. Also the exp track matters, but I'll assume your on the normal track. Probably close to 200.

Also worth mentioning is that not all encounters are fully rewarding, some can give higher exp if you fulfill the right conditions, E.G. "Exorcise the vile demon from the poor sap it's possessed instead of just killing him" for more exp.


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I'd argue no, since it wants you to have a whole piece. Mulch doesn't really count.