I'm gonna be honest with you, I would never allow you to skimp on materials to create a magic item like that. Despite the insistence that you can raise the DC by 5 and ignore requirements, I have never seen or found that rule and I'm pretty sure that it's nothing more than a widely used house rule.
My quotes are almost always from the official PRD, but it's easy enough to find that rule in the Core Rulebook:
-Page 549.
-First full paragraph on that page.
-Middle of that paragraph.
Ok dude, you need to stop and read very closely the content of the link you provided. It is the EXACT SAME RULE that I directly quoted above, I literally copied and pasted it from the SRD. I'm going to quote it again and walk you through it.
The section is divided into 8 sub sections, IN THIS ORDER: Aura, Caster Level, Slot, Price, Weight, Description, Construction, and Requirements. The REQUIREMENTS sub section reads exactly this:
"Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known.
Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. the cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components."
And the next section after that is MAGIC ITEM CREATION. The FIRST TWO PARAGRAPHS say the following:
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item’s creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
This means that the person crafting the item MUST meet the prerequisites, and the DC increases by 5 if he achieves these prerequisites by receiving AID FROM SOMEONE ELSE who meets those prerequisites. This is why the requirement section specifically says "If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known." Of the two of you, the CREATOR must be "good" is a requirement for this item (Holy Avenger). Therefor, if a Lawful Neutral Cleric and a Chaotic Good Wizard work together to craft a "Holy Avenger" they have to determine that the WIZARD is the creator. The WIZARD cannot cast Holy Aura, that is what the Cleric is assisting him in, and the WIZARD will then have to increase the craft DC by 5 since he, as the CREATOR, does not meet the requirement of "be able to cast Holy Aura".
Reading comprehension is important. Please. Learn it. Before the next time you speak. Because you are talking down to everyone else here who has provided direct links to rules, FAQ's and Errata's, and even quoted them VERBATIM, and even done this while providing a link to a section that literally says the OPPOSITE of what you claim it does. You have no idea how asinine that is, that is clear.
And I'm going to add that of the 89 instances in which the word "DC" and the 18 instances that the word "Increase" appears in the rules for magic item creation, the ONLY instance in which they are used together in any phrase or sentence which equates to "Increasing the DC" appears in this exact quote, from the same subsection above but four paragraphs further "This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5." which specifically references the 8 hours of crafting time per 1000 gp rule, and allows one to shorten it to 4 hours per day. The ONLY other time anything near this appears is in my earlier quote "The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." which as I already stated directly references a situation in which a creator does not meet a requirement for crafting an item is receiving aid from another person who does meet that requirement.
Grandis, I see where you are coming from, but you have to understand that the rules aren't always grouped the way you think they might be. Sometimes a paragraph can change subject or scope halfway through. This is partly because the rules were taken from 3.5, with additions tacked on, and sometimes just the results of human error. Let's compare the two pieces of text from 3.5 and Pathfinder. I'm adding the paragraphs before and after, so you can see them in context.
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
As you can see, prerequisites were always accessible from other sources, with no extra DC increase needed. If Pathfinder had wanted to add an extra hurdle to collaboration, then they would have made the language a lot tighter. Furthermore, this really goes against the spirit of Pathfinder, which was to make magic item crafting easier and not harder, which was a reaction to how prohibitive magic item crafting was in 3.5. The truth is that a prerequisite met through an item or other spellcaster is still a prerequisite that was "met", and so there is no increase to DC for it.
The APG text doesn’t overwrite the core text unless they contradict though. And there is no contradiction. So it’s just additive.APG was printed after the Core Rulebook and provides updated definitions to the entire section of magic items in the Core Rulebook. By every academic standard the newer definitions are considered to replace older definitions unless explicitly omitted in a newer source.
That's an acceptable interpretation if you want, though I think it will cause more repercussions than you expect it to. It doesn't mean that the CRB is not in error, however.
This means that the person crafting the item MUST meet the prerequisites, and the DC increases by 5 if he achieves these prerequisites by receiving AID FROM SOMEONE ELSE who meets those prerequisites.
If this were true, then no one would ever ask for aid, since skipping the requirement would have the same DC increase as suplying the requirement in another manner,
You must meet the requirement or have another means of supplying it, whether it is another caster, a scroll, a wand, or magic item.
If you do not, then the DC increases.
/cevah
This means that the person crafting the item MUST meet the prerequisites, and the DC increases by 5 if he achieves these prerequisites by receiving AID FROM SOMEONE ELSE who meets those prerequisites.If this were true, then no one would ever ask for aid, since skipping the requirement would have the same DC increase as suplying the requirement in another manner,
You must meet the requirement or have another means of supplying it, whether it is another caster, a scroll, a wand, or magic item.
If you do not, then the DC increases./cevah
I'm pretty sure that he means that supplying the spell through an outside source is the only way you can "skip" the prerequisite and increase the DC. But like I mentioned, a supplied prerequisite is still a prerequisite that was "met".
That is not what he said.
He said that having someone else supply the requirement increased the DC.
This is not correct:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
/cevah
That is not what he said.
He said that having someone else supply the requirement increased the DC.
This is not correct:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)./cevah
That's what I said he said. But moreover, he doesn't think you can increase the DC without that. He thinks that someone increasing the DC to ignore a prerequisite and something outside supplying the magic is all the same process. He doesn't think there is ignoring a prerequisite without it being supplied by someone else.
That's what I said he said. But moreover, he doesn't think you can increase the DC without that. He thinks that someone increasing the DC to ignore a prerequisite and something outside supplying the magic is all the same process. He doesn't think there is ignoring a prerequisite without it being supplied by someone else.That is not what he said.
He said that having someone else supply the requirement increased the DC.
This is not correct:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)./cevah
You wrote:
I'm pretty sure that he means that supplying the spell through an outside source is the only way you can "skip" the prerequisite and increase the DC. But like I mentioned, a supplied prerequisite is still a prerequisite that was "met".
This is not a restatement of what he sad.
/cevah
So, we all think like this:
-You can also either meet a prerequisite by using an outside source.
-Or you can increase the DC by 5 for each prerequisite you don't meet.
He thinks like this:
-You can also meet prerequisites by using outside sources by increasing the DC by 5 for each you don't meet.
-And you can't meet the prerequisites otherwise.
He thinks this because the two sentences, for outside sources and increasing the DC, are beside each other in the paragraph.
I'm pretty sure that he means that supplying the spell through an outside source is the only way you can "skip" the prerequisite and increase the DC. But like I mentioned, a supplied prerequisite is still a prerequisite that was "met".This is not a restatement of what he sad.
/cevah
Depends on how you define "restatement". But you seem to be under the impression that he believes something that he clearly doesn't.
If you didn't notice, Grandis and Sean Brinson are the same person in this thread. He didn't appear to try to hide this, but just seems to not manage which account he posts from at any given time.
But you seem to be under the impression that he believes something that he clearly doesn't.
I have no idea what he believes.
I posted based on what he wrote./cevah
This means that the person crafting the item MUST meet the prerequisites, and the DC increases by 5 if he achieves these prerequisites by receiving AID FROM SOMEONE ELSE who meets those prerequisites.
I didn't even capitalize that. He's just one of those people who enjoys shouting. He means that the requirements "MUST" be met. And if you don't meet them, you can't craft it. He thinks the bit about increasing the DC is only in relation to receiving aid.
And then it's funny because he implies that I'm making contentious claims, while he's making an argument that is in a minority I didn't even know existed.
I don't know about the rest of you, but this all sounds like a whole lot of noise. When people argue this much. Maybe its time to let this tread die.
Welcome to the rules forum. And goodbye from the rules forum.
I don't know about the rest of you, but this all sounds like a whole lot of noise. When people argue this much. Maybe its time to let this tread die.Welcome to the rules forum. And goodbye from the rules forum.
Dude, you don't have a leg to stand on. Smallest dogs always bark the loudest.
Dude, you don't have a leg to stand on. Smallest dogs always bark the loudest.I don't know about the rest of you, but this all sounds like a whole lot of noise. When people argue this much. Maybe its time to let this tread die.Welcome to the rules forum. And goodbye from the rules forum.
Irony.