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Let's say a Devil goes from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. What happens? Does it remain a Devil even with it's altered alignment? Or does it automatically become some other type of being?
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Going from Evil upwards is exceptionally rare, and documented only once as far as I'm aware. They maintained their form as a Demon despite being non-CE, and kept the Demon subtype, though of course acted differently. Similar things have occurred with Azatas too, though some types of Devils are thematically fallen angels, so clearly the change can be all-encompassing too! :)
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I believe that James Jacobs was asked about this some time back in the 'Ask James Jacobs' thread. His answer was that each case should be unique due to the incredible rarity of that particular act. Therefore, no rules have been published to date regarding what exactly happens in a case like this. The closest we get is the 'Broken One' template, but that's going in the other direction and there's more involved than just 'I decided to change my worldview', which is what alignment represents.
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I'll echo what the others have said: An outsider changing alignmnent is an incredibly rare and momentous event. Each case is different, so you, as the GM, will need to iron out the game mechanics in each specific case.
Some examples from published Pathfinder products include...
The redeemed succubus Arueshalae from Demon's Heresy (Wrath of the Righteous, part 3).
The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.
The four Queens of the Night are all LE fallen outsiders. (Specifically, three fallen angels and a fallen psychopomp)
The denizens of the archipelago of Basrakal, in the Maelstrom, are mostly outsiders who have changed alignment from that of what is typical of their kind. (Includes mentions of a NE devil, a CE foo creature, a CN inevitable, a N kyton, a NG psychopomp, a N angel, a LN protean, a N demon, a CG rakshasha, and a NE azata.)
I'm sure there are others, but those are the only that come to mind.
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Hanspur also has a CN thanadaemon as a planar ally, having convinced him to leave the horsemen.
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{. . .}
Pagala: Traitors. This caste is reserved for rakshasas who have become chaotic or good, and is the most shameful form of life to rakshasa thinking. Pagala are allowed to live only if they can be swayed back to the proper lawful evil way of life; otherwise they are hunted and killed.
{. . .}
So for Raskshasas, a change of alignment must be common enough (or at least once have been common enough) to be considered a threat. Similarly:
Outsiders and even deities also sometimes change alignment along the Law-Chaos axis:{. . .}
Rarely, however, contemplation on the nature of the multiverse or a desire for something more than eternal strife causes an asura to choose a different course. Such asuras meditate to become closer to that which they once sought to destroy, purifying themselves of their soul-burning hatred. Redeemed asuras are seldom good or religious, but they do wander the planes, dispensing wisdom and working against wanton destruction. Evil asuras loathe these traitors, and seek them out to destroy them with teeming fervor.
{. . .}
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So for Raskshasas, a change of alignment must be common enough (or at least once have been common enough) to be considered a threat.
That's because rakshasas are native to the Material Plane, and have no alignment subtypes. They are LE mostly for cultural reasons.
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^But Asuras exhibit a similar phenomenon, and they are not Native Outsiders.
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That planar campaign setting book from a few months back introduced a city in the Maelstrom inhabited by thousands of outsiders who have forsaken their normal alignment. It's apparently not vanishingly rare anymore, even if as a percentage of the infinite number of outsiders it's still an astronomical rounding error.
Creative Director
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That planar campaign setting book from a few months back introduced a city in the Maelstrom inhabited by thousands of outsiders who have forsaken their normal alignment. It's apparently not vanishingly rare anymore, even if as a percentage of the infinite number of outsiders it's still an astronomical rounding error.
Considering the fact that the total number of outsiders is a number beyond imagining... a single city of thousands doesn't make them "vanishingly rare." Especially in the context of things on the Material Plane.
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That planar campaign setting book from a few months back introduced a city in the Maelstrom inhabited by thousands of outsiders who have forsaken their normal alignment. It's apparently not vanishingly rare anymore, even if as a percentage of the infinite number of outsiders it's still an astronomical rounding error.Considering the fact that the total number of outsiders is a number beyond imagining... a single city of thousands doesn't make them "vanishingly rare." Especially in the context of things on the Material Plane.
With this thread's question in mind Mr. Jacobs, I don't suppose I could ask you what might happen if, say, someone were to take the body of a Good-aligned Outsider and raise them up as an intelligent undead? At least in terms of personality, I mean, as from the Axiomite Graveknights listing in the SRD as well as the case of Arazni who I'm sure counted as some form of Outsider given her relationship to Aroden at the time before her death.
I only ask because my character has taken to doing this with a lot of the enemy Outsiders we defeat in the Hell's Vengeance campaign we're running and any input you may have on what happens there mentally would be great. For instance, I've raised a Vulpinal Agathion as a Skeletal Champion, a Lillend Azata as a Zombie Lord, and most recently a Ghaele Azata as a Dullahan. The last one is the most interesting to me since it's less of a template like the first two and more like a completely different creature type (and completely opposite on both the L/C and G/E spectrums to boot!), so any insight you may have would be welcome.
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Whatever the GM or the storyteller wants to happen. Things like that can go all sorts of directions based on the needs of the story and the interest in those who are telling the story. An intelligent undead from a good outsider opens a WIDE range of potentials across the board.
That said, unless your table handles things differently than the core assumption and the canonical truth on Golarion, a good outsider turned into an undead is most likely going to be evil and a villain. Ghosts are generally the only exceptions to this, and you can't really "intentionally" create ghosts. The act of creating undead is pretty much always an evil act.
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Let's say a Devil goes from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. What happens? Does it remain a Devil even with it's altered alignment? Or does it automatically become some other type of being?
Mechanically speaking, in at least 3.5 and PF (I no longer remember 3.0 - I never actually owned those books, I don't think) an outsider can technically change alignment without altering its base nature, though it's still considered it's previous alignment for purposes relating to magic and alignment so long as it retains its subtypes.
So, let's first look here:
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the chaotic-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have chaotic alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature had a chaotic alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the chaotic subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are chaotically aligned.
... and...
This subtype is usually applied to Outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil Outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.
... and...
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned.
... and...
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the lawful-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have lawful alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature had a lawful alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the lawful subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are lawful-aligned.
Altogether, this means that a creature with an inherent alignment can, in fact, change alignments and change absolutely nothing else, per the RAW of PF.
That said, looking at canon PF there are several instances of a creature changing their alignment.
Two relatively handy (because they have stats) examples:
- Wrath of the Righteous spoiler (we'll call it "WotRs" from here on out, though the identity will be revealed in the spoiler tags)
This is Aurulashee, a demon and succubus.
We know,
Demons are chaotic evil outsiders that call the Abyss their home.
So that would indicate that demons are inherently chaotic evil - to be one you must be the other.
... and yet, Arueshalae has dropped the "evil" subtype, though she retains her chaotic and extraplanar subtypes, and has become chaotic neutral, angling for chaotic good, and is still a demon.
She also has this bit of weirdness:
Path to Redemption (Ex)
Arueshalae’s hopeful path toward redemption has had some unique effects on her abilities as a demon. She no longer has the evil subtype, and she’s lost the use of some of her demonic spell-like abilities as detailed above. Her DR has changed from DR 10/cold iron or good to DR 10/cold iron or lawful. When she’s within 30 feet of a CR 6 or higher demon at the start of any turn, she must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or be staggered for 1 round by flashbacks of her evil past.
So that's not a solid example of what to expect when you change alignments, but it's at least a data point. Further, there is an explicit list of what can be done to redeem her all the way to CG, which actually still leaves her with the demon subtype, though she gains the good subtype as well.
Now, we know from the above, that leaving your inherent alignment doesn't remove your subtype, and doesn't inherently grant you a subtype, either. That must mean that this is one of the unique aspects of her change.
From this, we learn that, though entirely a unique circumstance (and even holding unique mechanics to go with it), at least in one data point, you can retain your basic type even if you lose elements fundamental to being that type. Still, that's a single data point.
- Serpent's Skull spoiler (we'll call it, "S'sSs" from here on out, though the identity will be revealed in the spoiler tags)
This is the Radiant Muse, a lillend azata.
Much like before, we'll start here:
Azatas are a race of celestials, or good outsiders, native to chaotic good-aligned outer planes.
The Radiant Muse, however, has become insane after roughly 10,000 years of loneliness and repeated failures to keep people alive. Unlike WotRs, above, however, TRM doesn't have a special or unique effect or ability.
Further, TRM not only retained all of her spell-like abilities and various powers, she's grown them to greater effect than before - getting up to 13 HD, and gaining levels of bard, thus applying the ability scores from getting a class (-2/+0/+2/+2/+4/+4). So, all-in-all, pretty solid for a typical Azata!
But TRM has changed her alignment. As noted, she's "insane" (though she has no particular mechanical abilities or elements to go along with that), and has become CN instead of CG. Further adding to her unusual elements, TRM has lost her "good" subtype. From unrelated spoilers from a different AP, we can be certain that "insanity" neither inherently changes alignment nor strips an alignment subtype from a creature.
(It is my opinion, though I don't know for sure, that the Devs didn't want to confuse people by leaving her "good" without her being, you know, Good. Therefore, they took the alignment element out of the picture. But that is opinion, and not based in fact.)
... but really, that's it. That's about as straightforward as it gets. You can lose your alignment and your alignment subtype and still retain your major subtype.
So, to reiterate, that's two definitive data points: you can lose your alignment and your alignment subtype and still retain your "major" subtype such as azata or demon, and even retain your specific powers and effects. This is without applying a template (though there is a template that can be applied), and gives pretty strong precedent that neither alignment nor alignment subtypes are not necessary for "function" subtypes that are normally associated with those creatures.
One of those is weird, and it's strange that they both lost a subtype when that's not mechanically necessary, but it's just more proof of concept.
So, a lawful neutral devil is still a devil of their own kind with their own abilities. A lawful good inevitable is still an inevitable of their own kind with their own abilities. A chaotic neutral demon or azata is still a creature of their own kind with their own abilities. A chaotic evil protean is still a protean of its own kind with their own abilities. A neutral evil aeon is still an aeon of its own kind with most of its own abilities (though aeons have a specific entry about what happens when they go "rogue"). And so on and so forth.
But that's all general principle - the specifics differ from case to case.
If you're interested in an example of something that came up in a game of ours, though suuuuuuuuuuuper unofficial and entirely anecdotal, we had a succubus who became mythic and lawful good, lost all her alignment subtypes, and eventually gained the angel subtype... while still being a succubus with the demon subtype. Each step along that road was a long process, but that's how it all sorted out in the end.
(So she became this: LG outsider (angel, demon, extraplanar, mythic), as an example.)
But, again, that's non-canon to anything but our personal game.
Hope that helps!
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(So she became this: LG outsider (angel, demon, extraplanar, mythic), as an example.)
Okay, actually, I realized that, while I was accurate in this part,
but that's how it all sorted out in the end.
... is not quite accurate. As part of her whole... journey... thing... said entity eventually took the Beyond Morality mythic ability (because daggum was she busy getting hit with anti-alignment effects... while regularly consorting with inherently evil creatures only to change their alignment).
So, technically, "how it all sorted out in the end" was:
N/A outsider (angel, demon, extraplanar, mythic)
But!
LG outsider (angel, demon, extraplanar, mythic)
... was, in fact, one of the steps along her journey (and quite a long one, I might add).
As an example of things that happened to get this particular character to a non-evil state:
- CE succubus' well-being was bound through powerful magic to the well-being of the little girl
- she eventually found little girl in a demiplane; pretended to be a half-elf woman to gain little girl's trust (and accepted the "title" of "Mommy" and "Angel" as labels given by little girl; stupid brat)
- worked with fellow demon (and said demon's conquered "allies") against undead threat, while carrying little girl in a backpack (). This... ended poorly. While "Angel" made almost-sort-of-genuine friends with her fellow demon, and actually came to "care" for little girl in the way she understood, anyway (), both fellow demon and little girl died in a powerful attack by their main opponent (the undead mage responsible for the undead in the demiplane) which literally shattered soul-stuff in mostly-irreparable ways
- succubus found that she was actually super-furious about this, but helpless; undead mage was eradicated by magical backlash, the conjuring half-elf father was, himself, conjured by the event, and (as he was literally being devoured by his own magical essence) made a bargain with the succubus, using old magic: she took the demon essence from the dead demon friend and little girl's shattered soul-pieces, stitched them all together, and raised the little girl back to life with a permanent vow to take care of her, killing the father while sealing his soul into a gem before it was entirely devoured (; and thus the succubus became non-evil
(- though succubus did, also, arrange for living elements within the plane; those for-mentioned "allies" for example were taught to live, fish, and such, and, with time and effort, new people were born from them; still, such a population wasn't sustainable long-term)
- succubus (having learned lessons) decided to scout/explore first, for safety; she was immediately nearly destroyed by walking into a battlefield in which the Knights of Ozem were fighting Tar-Baphon; being disguised as a half-elf, still, she was rescued by a particular knight (a distinguished and powerful mortal paladin who'd seen her appear, then get nearly-killed; a woman known as Iomadae) and brought before the incredibly powerful Arazni
- Arazni acknowledged what she was, forced her to reveal the nature of the geas she was under, and gave her a bargain - she would strip the succubus of her inherent alignment, make her name real (angel subtype), and allow her to undergo atonement, and raise the child to adulthood, after-which a semi-permanent geas-like effect that would be placed on her would be lifted (also, she was forbidden from interfering with mortal affairs beyond what was necessary to keep her charge alive); seeing little choice, the succubus agreed, was bound and sent back to the demiplane with instructions on how to get to a "safe time and place" and used them to retool the gate to the ancient city of Westcrown...
- spent the next 900 years raising a girl into a woman (puberty lasted so daggum long, you guys), keeping vigil for Arazni and worshiping her, Aroden, and Iomadae; eventually moving out of the city when the troubles in Cheliax became so great as to likely lead to death of the girl; spent most of the rest of the time in Absalom trying to keep the little girl's longevity (and all of their longevity, really) a secret while also allowing her friends and, you know, a life; it's a hard line to walk, really
(- before leaving Westcrown, at one point, she took part in the jury deliberating on what to do about a wandering knight accused of corruption when he renounced Aroden (though he claimed he was opposing the corruption of the system itself, and that a demonic "infestation" that had killed his wife and child); she chose and persuaded her fellow members to acquit the man Daidian Ruel of wrongdoing (though he would later be captured and tried before the king))
(- also worth noting that those previously mentioned allies - now with children - followed her to the real world and originally (mostly) settled in or near Westcrown, where they bred with humans; they were mostly driven off to the coasts within short notice, however, and some journeyed far to the north to settle up there; regardless, due to her long-term influence on them, they eventually came to revere her as a sort of deity or saint. The people themselves called themselves the "dunbloods" after their brown-colored blood - some tribes were mostly indistinguishable from big and strong humans or half-humans and integrated into society as old families with secrets kept and strange rituals (a prominent later member being one Sir Gonville Chard), while others were more noticeably descended from hobgoblin- orc- and similar creatures, albeit heavily bred with humankind; there are tribes of these latter living in some of the coastal marshes and forests of Cheliax, even today.)
- before finally, finally finishing the job and allowing her now-grown-up-no-longer-little girl to be an adult off on her own, and earning that shiny new Lawful Good alignment all the way (after which she joined an Iomadaen monastery, before moving to Cheliax to join Children of the Upper Reach); with her was the still-active highly preserved flesh golem "butler"/father, and they then moved back to Westcrown to see how the old place was doing, now that rumor held that it wasn't quite as likely to kill everyone in it as it used to be, but it was in need of help and a man named Arael (the brother of a fellow monk), was seeking to do good and reclaim the night from the shadows...
Man, that was waaaayyyyy too much information.
But there you go.
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From the setting perspective, the outsiders's body is built out of aligned quintessence. They are literally made of Good, or Evil, etc. I imagine that if their actions and personality stops matching the stuff they are made of, some physiological reaction is bound to occur, some kind of sickness. Possibly if they stick to their new alignment, and change the environment, the essence of their bodies is slowly gets replaced by the essence. Mechanically, I would make such creatures lose their old alignment subtypes and give them new ones, but wouldn't change their kind subtype (like demon, angel, etc.). I wouldn't change their appearance significantly, though they may get some minor easthetic flourishes. Whether their abilties would change, I would decide on case-to-case basis.
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That planar campaign setting book from a few months back introduced a city in the Maelstrom inhabited by thousands of outsiders who have forsaken their normal alignment. It's apparently not vanishingly rare anymore, even if as a percentage of the infinite number of outsiders it's still an astronomical rounding error.Considering the fact that the total number of outsiders is a number beyond imagining... a single city of thousands doesn't make them "vanishingly rare." Especially in the context of things on the Material Plane.
Not only that, but if getting an out-of-alignment Outsider requires several conditions to be met, such occurrences will be extremely rare even if each condition is merely uncommon.
Suppose a whopping 1% of Outsiders make an attempt to change alignment;
Of those, suppose 1% succeed at both doing so and keeping from backsliding;
Congratulations -- now they're off the divine power gravy train and have to actually eat stuff to survive, but they have to become sufficiently accustomed to this for it to work before they starve to death (and then have to do it long enough to get onto divine power from another plane, if they're going that route); suppose 1% succeed;
Congratulations -- now everybody's going to extra effort to kill them: almost all of the other Outsiders of their same type want to kill them as traitors, while a large fraction of everyone else doesn't trust them and/or sees them as potentially easy trophy kills. This last problem is partially waived in the case of Outsiders going Evil, since -- for all their faults -- the forces of Evil, unlike the forces of Balance and Good, seem to have a very well-developed concept of how to make use of things brought into Evil. So, call it a 1% chance of making it through this step in most cases, but 10% for joining up with Evil.
Multiply all the above together, and you get 1.0E-8 ultimate survival for most Outsiders going off-alignment, or 1.0E-7 for Outsiders going Evil (even if from a different variety of Evil).
Now, how many Outsiders does Golarion have associated with it? Probably some multiple of the number of people that it has had, which in turn is roughly related to its population. Given Golarion's state of social development and the absence of an official census, 5.0E+8 seems like a reasonable estimate for current population; however, unlike Earth's unprecedented and only slightly interrupted expansion of population, Golarion has had comparable civilizations several times, so Arthur C. Clarke's estimate of 40 past souls for every living person probably needs to be multiplied 2.5-fold or so -- call it 100, giving us 5.0E+10; however, we know from the way that souls often get smooshed together (that's a technical term) by means such as Pit Fiends' Devil Shaping (the best-described but not only example) when forming Outsiders, and that many souls are simply consumed and some diverted to being Undead, we probably have to cut this number back down by a factor of roughly 100, getting us back to 5.0E+8. Now remember the probabilities computed above for combined probability of success and survival for being an out-of-alignment Outsider? Multiply those by our estimate of the number of Outsiders associated with Golarion, and even assuming that an even 1/3 of them are going to each of Good, Balance, and Evil -- you get 1 or 2 for each of Good and Balance, and around 17 for Evil (all this is before dividing up by alignment along the Law-to-Chaos axis).
Note that the above is for Outsiders trying to change on their own -- if an outer plane embarks on a serious program of trying to recruit Outsiders even if unwilling, it can get much higher numbers of converts, as examplified by the great numbers of Erinyes that Hell produces from captured Angels and other formerly-Good souls. (The Dukes of Hell undoubtedly did the above calculations, and very quickly concluded that spontaneous conversion, even with a complete waiver of the last of the 4 steps above, simply wasn't going to cut it for producing their army of Erinyes.) It would be interesting to see if any of the other Outer Planes have developed any systematic conversion programs.
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The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.
Just want to correct this, Ragathiel isn't a "redeemed" devil. His story is more or less a "sin's of the father" thing as he's the son of Dispater, who is a fallen angel, and a fire goddess who afaik is only mentioned as his mother. By all accounts, he's an angel. Possibly half fire elemental I guess, his mom's only info is that she is a fire goddess who was "native to the plane of fire". He's probably influenced by this corruption though, since his lore says he fights against his baser urges constantly, and is always supremely pissed off.
Devil's that are "created" are pretty much elusively devil's, but the ones who were originally angels are basically super corrupt angels, but still technically angels.
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The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.Just want to correct this, Ragathiel isn't a "redeemed" devil. His story is more or less a "sin's of the father" thing as he's the son of Dispater, who is a fallen angel, and a fire goddess who afaik is only mentioned as his mother. By all accounts, he's an angel. Possibly half fire elemental I guess, his mom's only info is that she is a fire goddess who was "native to the plane of fire". He's probably influenced by this corruption though, since his lore says he fights against his baser urges constantly, and is always supremely pissed off.
Devil's that are "created" are pretty much elusively devil's, but the ones who were originally angels are basically super corrupt angels, but still technically angels.
He's been explicitly called an Ascended Devil.
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He's been explicitly called an Ascended Devil.The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.Just want to correct this, Ragathiel isn't a "redeemed" devil. His story is more or less a "sin's of the father" thing as he's the son of Dispater, who is a fallen angel, and a fire goddess who afaik is only mentioned as his mother. By all accounts, he's an angel. Possibly half fire elemental I guess, his mom's only info is that she is a fire goddess who was "native to the plane of fire". He's probably influenced by this corruption though, since his lore says he fights against his baser urges constantly, and is always supremely pissed off.
Devil's that are "created" are pretty much elusively devil's, but the ones who were originally angels are basically super corrupt angels, but still technically angels.
Where, and by whom? Especially given that he's officially been stated in Bestiary 6, where his stats including no infernal, abyssal, daemonic or otherwise. He's got "Fire", "Extraplanar" and "Angel" which only further supports that he's half angel half fire elemental. It is still said that he's "More violent than the other celestial would like" and the such, which may owe to either him being born and spending a few hundred years in Hell, or to him being the direct son of one of the most powerful Arch Devil's. But again, his dad is explicitly stated to be a fallen angel. He's fundamentally different from any being created as a Devil.
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I haven't heard of Ragathiel being called an ascended Devil, but that said, in another thread somebidy DID point out a partially redeemed Deimavigga Devil, whose name I can't remember.
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Where, and by whom? Especially given that he's officially been stated in Bestiary 6, where his stats including no infernal, abyssal, daemonic or otherwise. He's got "Fire", "Extraplanar" and "Angel" which only further supports that he's half angel half fire elemental. It is still said that he's "More violent than the other celestial would like" and the such, which may owe to either him being born and spending a few hundred years in Hell, or to him being the direct son of one of the most powerful Arch Devil's. But again, his dad is explicitly stated to be a fallen angel. He's fundamentally different from any being created as a Devil.He's been explicitly called an Ascended Devil.The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.Just want to correct this, Ragathiel isn't a "redeemed" devil. His story is more or less a "sin's of the father" thing as he's the son of Dispater, who is a fallen angel, and a fire goddess who afaik is only mentioned as his mother. By all accounts, he's an angel. Possibly half fire elemental I guess, his mom's only info is that she is a fire goddess who was "native to the plane of fire". He's probably influenced by this corruption though, since his lore says he fights against his baser urges constantly, and is always supremely pissed off.
Devil's that are "created" are pretty much elusively devil's, but the ones who were originally angels are basically super corrupt angels, but still technically angels.
And his dad is explicitly a Devil in his statblock.
I could have sworn James Jacobs said he was but I can't find the post now, and the next closest thing is a post from over 2 years ago where he says he doesn't count Ragathiel as a Redeemed Fiend. I'll keep looking though, that's gonna bug me.
Also Divine Anthology calls out that he turned away from evil to become what he is.
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Thanks -- that let me find:
And that let me find that this apparently goes beyond just a couple of examples:
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Where, and by whom? Especially given that he's officially been stated in Bestiary 6, where his stats including no infernal, abyssal, daemonic or otherwise. He's got "Fire", "Extraplanar" and "Angel" which only further supports that he's half angel half fire elemental. It is still said that he's "More violent than the other celestial would like" and the such, which may owe to either him being born and spending a few hundred years in Hell, or to him being the direct son of one of the most powerful Arch Devil's. But again, his dad is explicitly stated to be a fallen angel. He's fundamentally different from any being created as a Devil.He's been explicitly called an Ascended Devil.The empyreal lord Ragathiel is a LG redeemed devil.Just want to correct this, Ragathiel isn't a "redeemed" devil. His story is more or less a "sin's of the father" thing as he's the son of Dispater, who is a fallen angel, and a fire goddess who afaik is only mentioned as his mother. By all accounts, he's an angel. Possibly half fire elemental I guess, his mom's only info is that she is a fire goddess who was "native to the plane of fire". He's probably influenced by this corruption though, since his lore says he fights against his baser urges constantly, and is always supremely pissed off.
Devil's that are "created" are pretty much elusively devil's, but the ones who were originally angels are basically super corrupt angels, but still technically angels.
And his dad is explicitly a Devil in his statblock.
I could have sworn James Jacobs said he was but I can't find the post now, and the next closest thing is a post from over 2 years ago where he says he doesn't count Ragathiel as a Redeemed Fiend. I'll keep looking though, that's gonna bug me.
Also Divine Anthology calls out that he turned away from evil to become what he is.
Sigh. Listen to what I am saying, step by step.
1 - Yes, his dad is a devil, and his dad's lore specifically states that he was an Angel, and is one of exactly four former Celestials who "Fell from heaven with Asmodeas" We know that Barbatos was a celestial of some kind BUT did not fall with Asmodeas, only appearing after the original Lord of the First (Typhon) was killed by Ragathiel. We also know that Moloch was an Archon, while the identities of the other two fallen angels are unknown afaik. I believe one of the Whore Queens was also mentioned as being a former angel, but I can't find anything to confirm that so I'm going to assume it's just speculation.
2 - The existence of a FALLEN CELESTIAL is extremely unique and quite different from other "devils" who were created or born in hell as Devils. Especially the particularly powerful angels/celestials like Dispater and Moloch.
3 - Ragathiels lore explicitly states that his mother is a fire goddess from the fire elemental plane. It also says he fled hell after Dispater ripped off his 6th wing, and that this occurred only several hundred years into his life. It then goes on to state that it took him thousands of years of service to EARN THE TRUST OF THE CELESTIAL FORCES, but now they trust him completely, and their only issue with him is that he's more violent and angry than they would like. As far as his lore and profile are concerned, he has inherited angelic powers from his father, and fire elemental powers from his mother.
This means that Ragathiel is HALF FIRE ELEMENTAL, HALF ANGEL. Dispater is a UNIQUE EXISTENCE, unlike ANY other devil in the entirety of the game. He is a FALLEN ANGEL. Pragmatically it makes sense that he would be typed as a "Devil" and not a "Fallen Angel", since he's been corrupted to a simply unimaginable degree, but that does not change the nature of his existence. It also does not change that while he conceived Ragathiel well after he became a devil, that Ragithial being born as a half breed Fire Elemental Angel proves that fundamentally, Dispater is STILL an angel. A fallen angel is STILL an angel, just a super corrupt one. Ragathiel never had to "redeem" himself because he never "Fell". He had to PROVE himself, because he's the direct son of the Lord of the Second Hell, and was BORN AND RAISED in Hell. That's significantly different from being redeemed and changed from being a devil. It is also shown that Ragathiel is far more violent and angry than other angels, and that is likely because his father is a fallen angel/devil. But that means that Ragathiel is not an example of any redeemed angel or devil.
Finally, I wouldn't trust the third party stuff in the first place,and that includes novels. Third party sources have literally given us Lucifer as a CR 40 stated monster, and tend to play hard and fast with established lore to the point of making mary sue type characters. Functionally, we know for an absolute fact that angels and other celestial beings can be corrupted into devils and demons since that happened to Barbatos, Moloch and Dispater. Therefor, it makes perfect logical sense that Devil's and Demons can also be "purified" into Celestials. It must be damn hard to do, because it's damn hard to "Fall" in the first place. Like I said, we only know of 4 Celestials who fell along with Asmodeus, and we only know two of them, and the only other example that I know of is Barbatos. That makes 5 examples of fallen celestials total. It's fine to play around with the idea, but the evidence suggests pretty heavily that it would be at least twice as hard to purify oneself from infernal corruption as it is to fall to it in the first place.
And for sources, I'm drawing off "Chronicles of the Righteous", "Inner Sea Gods", "The Great Beyond: A Guide to the Multiverse", and "Bestiary 6", where Ragathiel AND Dispater have both been officially given stat blocks as CR26 and CR27 creatures.
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We know that Barbatos was a celestial of some kind BUT did not fall with Asmodeas,Where was this stated?
but now they trust him completely, and their only issue with him is that he's more violent and angry than they would like.Is it?
Dispater is a UNIQUE EXISTENCE, unlike ANY other devil in the entirety of the game. He is a FALLEN ANGEL.*points at Asmodeus, Baalzebub, Moloch, Mammon and the Erinyes*
Pragmatically it makes sense that he would be typed as a "Devil" and not a "Fallen Angel", since he's been corrupted to a simply unimaginable degree, but that does not change the nature of his existence. It also does not change that while he conceived Ragathiel well after he became a devil, that Ragithial being born as a half breed Fire Elemental Angel proves that fundamentally, Dispater is STILL an angel.Where does it state that Ragathiel is half-angel?
A fallen angel is STILL an angel, just a super corrupt one.Nothing in Dispater's stat block has him being angelic anything, which is what I was getting at.
Ragathiel never had to "redeem" himself because he never "Fell".Divine Anthology explicitly states he turned away from Evil. He started out not-Good, and rose.
Finally, I wouldn't trust the third party stuff in the first place,and that includes novels.I have not referenced any third party materials, and the Pathfinder Tales line of novels are very much not third party. They're canon (and have been referenced in supplements) until designers say otherwise.
where Ragathiel AND Dispater have both been officially given stat blocks as CR26 and CR27 creatures.
Where the former is an Angel and the latter is a Devil, not a Redeemed Devil and Fallen Angel.
Where was this stated?
In the books "Pathfinder Chronicle: Book of the Damned". Specifically in "Volume One: Princes of Darkness".
Is it?
Yes. Every source containing information on Ragathiel states this, from all the way back to Inner Sea God's and Chronicle of the Righteous to his profile in Bestiary 6. They gave him the title "General of Vengeance" as well, and it flat out states that their only issue with him is that he's "more violent than they would like". Also says he has a nifty fortress made to withstand a 1000 year siege.
*points at Asmodeus, Baalzebub, Moloch, Mammon and the Erinyes*
Yes, every Arch-Devil is a unique existence. Though several of them have had their lore changed slightly or just leaves us with more questions than answers (Mammon's lore in I believe Champions of Corruption claims that he's the physical manifestation of Hell itself, but everything else including Bestiary 6 claims he's a fallen angel) every single one of them is a unique existence. And I did just go check Book of the Damned, it calls him a fallen angel as far back as that, so we've found another one of the four. The Erinyes, however, are strictly devil's. They are very plainly stated to be "fiends created in mockery of the angelic form with a beauty that belies their utterly sadistic, evil nature. They are the avengers and executioners of Hell" in Book of the Damned and Bestiary 1.
Where does it state that Ragathiel is half-angel?
Ragiethiel is the son of Dispater (who is a fallen angel) and Feronia (A Demigoddess of Fire from the plane of Fire) named in the Book of the Damned. Ragathiel's stat block in Bestiary 6, page 114 explicitly gives him the following typing: LG Huge outsider (angel, extraplanar, good, lawful) Furthermore, his stat block includes the following special ability: Righteous Mantle (Ex) Ragathiel inherited an affinity for fire from his mother. Fire heals Ragathiel a number of hit points equal to the amount of damage it would have dealt. Any fire damage dealt by Ragathiel ignores evil outsiders’ fire resistance and immunity to fire, and deals double damage to devils. Ragathiel gains a sacred bonus to Armor Class equal to his Charisma bonus. Whenever Ragathiel receives magical healing, he has 2 additional hit points restored per die rolled.
This means that he is very clearly half angel, half fire elemental, unless you want to claim that this information insinuates that his mother was an angel or something else. Considering that she is described as, and I quote verbatim "a little known demigoddess from the elemental plane of fire", and FIRE ELEMENTALS live on the plane of fire, I'd say that pretty heavily shows that she is a fire elemental. There is nothing that states that she is or isn't a fire elemental beyond that, but IF we are going to use that logic to say she's something else, then I nominate that she is in fact a godly gremlin. Ragathiel is from this point on, half God Gremlin, Half Angel. However, if you use reading comprehension, then you can clearly make an inference on what he is half and half of, by who his parents are and what they are and were in lore. By technical standards, Ragathiel would be a half FALLEN/Infernal corrupted angel, and half Fire Elemental. By categorization and game play standards, he's an Angel and Dispater is a devil because it would be a headache to make another sub type just for them.Nothing in Dispater's stat block has him being angelic anything, which is what I was getting at.
You're discounting his lore, and word of god. In "Kobold Quarterly #23" F. Wesley Schneider wrote an article about Dispater where he states the following: "Dispater is a fallen angel, originally the lieutenant of Baalzebul, who in turn was the champion of Asmodeus. Following his war against Ihys, when Asmodeus led his host to Hell in the Exodus, Dispater fell with his commander, and was rewarded for his loyalty with the status of Lord of the Second." Schneider was editor in chief of Paizo in 2012 when this was written, though he left Paizo in 2017. Unless they've retconned this in recent years, it's still true. Also, this came out slightly after Redemption Engine.
Divine Anthology explicitly states he turned away from Evil. He started out not-Good, and rose.
Turned away from evil does not mean "Redeemed" nor does it mean that he was ever a devil. Though it does seem as though he's had several ret-cons and changes here and there, as Book of the Damned says that his mother took him from hell "As a babe" but newer lore, citing bestiary 6, states that He rejected his father’s evil, losing his sixth wing to the archdevil’s wrath, and escaped to Heaven, where he spent several millennia attempting to prove himself to the heavenly hosts and the other empyreal lords." which indicates that he was born and raised in Hell for several hundred years, and didn't leave until he was at least old enough to SURVIVE Dispater attacking him. Similarly, earlier lore seems to indicate that Dispater is on good terms with Feronia, and even says that they correspond once a year but never meet in person out of respect for his current wife, which would make sense if she took Ragathiel out of hell when he was a baby. Admittedly we know very little about her personality, but I'm erring on the side of her not being friendly with Dispater if he ripped Ragathiel's wing off like that. Seems like a pretty serious dick move to me, but I've seen stranger things come out of Paizo's writing.
I have not referenced any third party materials, and the Pathfinder Tales line of novels are very much not third party. They're canon (and have been referenced in supplements) until designers say otherwise.
If they are, then I'm going to default to two rules of thumb:
1 - New lore trumps old lore when in conflict. Bestiary 6 is the newest lore that I know of for Ragathiel, and Redemption Engine (Which I have not read) came out in 2011.2 - Someone find the quotes regarding Ragathiel in Redemption engine. If Ragathiel himself claims he is a redeemed former devil, or a credible character directly states it, then it could be considered to have credibility. If instead one of the apparently "redeemed devils" claims that Ragathiel is or could be a redeemed devil, then I'm going to leave it as unconfirmed rumor with little basis. This would probably be a good letter to send in to Paizo, actually, ask for confirmation about Ragathiel's lineage in regards to changes or holes in the lore. My nomination of him being half god gremlin still stands.
Where the former is an Angel and the latter is a Devil, not a Redeemed Devil and Fallen Angel.
Once again, don't ignore the lore. Question inconsistencies in the lore, absolutely, but do not ignore it.
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In the books "Pathfinder Chronicle: Book of the Damned". Specifically in "Volume One: Princes of Darkness".What page/line? Nothing in Barbatos' section calls him out as a fallen celestial.
Yes, every Arch-Devil is a unique existence. Though several of them have had their lore changed slightly or just leaves us with more questions than answers (Mammon's lore in I believe Champions of Corruption claims that he's the physical manifestation of Hell itself, but everything else including Bestiary 6 claims he's a fallen angel)His original body was that of a fallen angel, he was killed and his essence fused with the treasure he was guarding, which was dumped into the vaults of Erebus, so now he is all the treasure of Hell.
The Erinyes, however, are strictly devil's. They are very plainly stated to be "fiends created in mockery of the angelic form with a beauty that belies their utterly sadistic, evil nature. They are the avengers and executioners of Hell" in Book of the Damned and Bestiary 1.Book of the Damned explicitly states the majority of Erinyes are corrupted angelic spirits tempted away from the paths of the righteous.
Ragiethiel is the son of Dispater (who is a fallen angel) and Feronia (A Demigoddess of Fire from the plane of Fire) named in the Book of the Damned.He's the son of a Devil and a fire goddess, where does it state that he's half-angel over being half-devil?
Ragathiel's stat block in Bestiary 6, page 114 explicitly gives him the following typing: LG Huge outsider (angel, extraplanar, good, lawful)Which means he's an angel now, just like his dad is stated as a Devil rather than an angel/fallen angel.
This means that he is very clearly half angel, half fire elemental,I've never disputed him being half-fire elemental/god, it's the half-angel part that comes into question, which so far he is "clearly" not been proven.
You're discounting his lore, and word of god.I'm literally going off his official stat block in Bestiary 6, nothing angelic.
In "Kobold Quarterly #23"Now THAT'S third party, even if it was written by Devil master Wes, I'd be wary of the canonicity of anything written in there (on the cover it specifically singles out the PFS scenario as official for example).
Also, this came out slightly after Redemption Engine.Nope, KQ 23 came out in 2012, The Redemption Engine came out in 2014.
Turned away from evil does not mean "Redeemed"That is exactly what that means, or at the very least, on the path to redemption.
Though it does seem as though he's had several ret-cons and changes here and therePossible, though not necessarily, his mother took him from Hell, but it's still likely/possible that he went to visit his father. Nothing about him actually living with Dispater for any extended period of time.
Someone find the quotes regarding Ragathiel in Redemption engineUh, I don't think Ragathiel is mentioned at all in The Redemption Engine. He certainly doesn't show up there.
Once again, don't ignore the lore
I'm not, i'm pointing out what they're listed as currently since in your debates Dispater keeps switching back and forth between a Devil and Fallen Angel as needed whereas you keep positing that Ragathiel has always been an Angel.
^Wait . . . you mean they go to Washington?
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This discusdion has devolved into pedantry, and I'm out.