FuriousPoop's page

The question was asked in one of the "summoner question" threads I think and they specifically declined to answer it so far. (at least unless there was an updated post I missed).

So for the moment, the official answer is pending.. but probably leaning towards no (imo).

-S

If they do not get reach than an Eidolon that is huge is stuck with a 10 foot reach because you can only take reach once for each weapon.

Luthia wrote:

Nerioth wrote:

Page 195 of the player's handbook, creature size and scale. It gives tall and long.

Thanks a lot for that have been searching for it forever. Especially the Reach-table based on size might be relevant, but we of course still need to know if it's included in the Large/Huge Evolutions.

It doesn't say that it gets a 10ft reach so I think its fair to assume it does not. Just spend another point on reach.

Actually if they are large based on page 195 of the players handbook then they would have a natural reach of 10 for size large and 15 for size huge. Unless you are building a snake or a horse.

Yeah and spell progress for a Wizard and Sorcerer is "almost" the same thing but it's different. Your Eidolon should be fully built before game and why would you be sprawling for information at that point.

FuriousPoop wrote:

And finally if the DM thinks your Eidolon's AC will be to big he can just say no. That's the great thing about a good DM he knows when to say no to something that will break the game and make it less fun for the other players.

And wouldn't it be easier if you couldn't get the Eidolon's AC so high that it breaks the game? That's what this entire thread is about, after all.

Every class has the ability to break a game in some way or another. By removing the ability to get proficiencies or lowering the Natural Armor someone who is trying to create a well rounded Eidolon has to spend more points than necessary to get an ok AC rather than looking at other things it could do. The only way to make a game that does not have holes that can be exploited is to create it like 4th edition and I believe we are all here on the Paizo boards because we don't want to play a game with that limited amount of choices. In the end it is the DM's call whether something can happen and if your DM can't make decisions like that, sorry. Mine would never allow my Eidolon to have an AC like that nor would I try because it makes the game less fun. However if I needed to spend all my evolution points to get an AC of 22 or so at level 20 that wouldn't be to much fun at all either.

FuriousPoop wrote:

Does no one understand that the Eidolon isn't a creature that is just walking around Armorsmiths are planning to make money off of making them armor.

<Summoner PC enters armorsmithy>

Summoner: "Good Master Smith! I wish to commission a suit of armor for my companion, and I will pay top price!"
Smith: "It'll take <xyz time> and cost <pqr gold>. Also, I'll need to have access to your ... friend ... periodically for measurements."
Summoner: "Glad to do business with you!"

Where, precisely, is the problem with this? "Off-the-rack" full plate is a total myth. Every suit of full plate has to be custom-made, that's why it was historically so expensive.

I never said it couldn't happen. If you look at earlier posts I pointed out he very well could make it it would take about 32 weeks. I have yet to say that an Eidolon wouldn't be able to end up with it. I'm saying it not as easy to get as you are pointing out and by the time you get it the main reason for wanting it could have been resolved. And finally if the DM thinks your Eidolon's AC will be to big he can just say no. That's the great thing about a good DM he knows when to say no to something that will break the game and make it less fun for the other players.

FuriousPoop wrote:

If I was to DM and a PC really wanted something like that I would create a tough but not impossible quest that would bring them to an area where Giants live because it is more likely that they would have huge armor around.

Would you say the same thing if someone wanted to bard their horse? Horses are, after all, Large creatures.

And really, this is entirely irrelevant to the point. Going from Medium to Huge nets the Eidolon a grand total of 3 AC (and -2 Touch AC).

No I wouldn't say the same for barding on a horse because a horse is a common creature. Does no one understand that the Eidolon isn't a creature that is just walking around Armorsmiths are planning to make money off of making them armor.

DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

Is the Eiodolon a little too tough? Maybe I am going to start one for Pathfinder society and see hows it go. My initial reaction I think the only change Eidolon needs is to get the Druid companion D8 HP and follow the Druid's Animal companion HD progression.

By changing the the Eidolon HD you are changing the rules that have already been set for an outsider. As an outsider the Eidolon gets a d10 and that I am sure is not going to change. I'm pretty sure that Jason has came out and said that the Eidolon is a more intregal part to the summoner class than the Animal Companion is to the Druid. I mean think about it this way a Druid can cast more spells per day, has the Animal Companion and then wild shape. If I had to equal the Eidolon to a class feature that a Druid has I would say it would almost have to be equal to the Animal Companion and Wild Shape because the Summoning SLA and Casting of a Summoner is probably about equal to the Casting of the Druid.

Guys, if you're going to argue it's too hard to get armor made for an eidolon, then it's too hard to build for PCs as well.

"I'm sorry Mr. 17th level paladin, but it will take several months for your ridiculously expensive armor to be ready. I know you could buy a small city for the cost of this +5 adamantine ghost touch full plate of speed, and even though our world is magical beyond belief and I'm obviously a fantastically gifted artisan, the rules say I just cannot deliver before Omnilich the Buggerer kills us all."

That just doesn't fly for me. The point of accumulating fantastic amounts of money in-game is to buy cool things that we can then have fun using... not roleplaying the sit-in-the-waiting room game. If that's how your game swings, fine, but those of us buying armor for our eidolons are only making the same assumption we make when we build PCs: money buys equipment, not boredom.

However, an Armorsmith may have a small or medium piece of Armor that you are looking for already in the shop because all PC classes are of those size categories. So it's very likely you'd be able to spend your money on it. But if someone is so worried that an Eidolon of size huge gets +5 Full Plate then there is a way that the DM can say it is not possible at this time because what Armorsmith would just have a Huge Full Plate waiting around. If I was to DM and a PC really wanted something like that I would create a tough but not impossible quest that would bring them to an area where Giants live because it is more likely that they would have huge armor around.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The reason the eidolon progression is different is because it uses the Outsider progression.

Its BAB is matched to its HD.

An animal has a BAB of 3/4 its HD.

But why is its HD progression weird and different from an AC. Is that one extra HD worth the finicky rules sprawl? 2-17 instead of 2-16?

What I think we have to do is not look at them as a AC. They aren't meant to be different and that is why they are not matching up. Just like you wouldn't challenge the spell progression between two classes the HD progress between two Cohorts should be treated the same.

FuriousPoop wrote:

So if you can find a 15th level Gnomish Armor Expert you can have your +5 Huge Full Plate it just about 35 weeks. As long as your BBEG doesn't mind waiting 3 weeks for the summoner to take his time enchanting the armor afterwards.

Need to remember that next time anyone asks for something made out of special materials or high level magic items, those don't exist, too much work. But seriously, it's a fantasy world, and if you really wanted a huge suit of armor you could commission 100 peasant armor crafters to make it piece by piece in about a week taking 10 for a 14. Although if you want to stick by the rules, they'll have trouble making the masterwork component.

Point is that most of the time armor crafting is not a one man job, and when it is, you're right, it takes forever. But it's not really that much longer than anything your average party of adventurers normally has.

That still wouldn't work because you have to beat the DC which is a 19 to get any work done for the week. The point I am trying to make is that an undertaking of making Huge Armor is not as easy as everyone in the thread is making it seem even in a fantasy setting. If everyone is pointing out the crazyness of the AC in a fantasy setting, then it is fair to point out the amount of work it would take to make the armor.

Also you would need to be able to assist your Eidolon with putting the armor on. Which if you are a normal medium character would be rather difficult. I just think the whole argument is ridiculous and should be dropped. A good DM will handle this problem the best way they can and if they allow it then they will have to handle an Eidolon with whatever AC it has.

Any blacksmith can make the base gear. Enchantments can be provided by the Summoner. Masterwork Huge non-humanoid full plate is 12,150 gold, which isn't even as much as Adamantine full plate. A masterwork Huge steel heavy shield is only 310 gold.

Exactly it costs 12,150 gold in order to make the full plate. So using the rules for crafting we can figure out how long it would take to make it.

1. Find the item's price in silver pieces.

Armor - 12,000 gold = 120,000 silver.
Masterwork - 150 = 1,500
Making sure to subtract the masterwork portion because it is made seperatly.

2. Find the item's DC.

page 93 Table 4-4
Armor = 10 + AC Bonus = 19
Masterwork = 20

3. Pay 1/3 of the item's price in raw material cost.

Considering you are not the one making it you use the full total.

4.Make an appropriate Craft Check representing one week's work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.

So lets say you go to a good town with a level 15 Gnome Expert he will have a 16 int at most and he puts full skills into Armorsmithing and being a Gnome he gets the +2 Obsessive bonus to it that will bring him to a 23 Craft(Armor) ( 15 skill points + 3 class skill + 3 from int + 2 from Obssesive) So by taking 10 that is 23 X 19 silver pieces of work per work = 437. Now dividing the 12,000 by 437 you get 28 weeks after rounding for the Armor. Do the same for the masterwork portion 23 x 20 = 450. Then division gives you 4 weeks after rounding. This is a total of 32 weeks worth of work just to get the item made.

Now the magic portion of it is much easier it says on the top of page 551 Crafting magic armor requires one day for each 1,000 gp value. So without failing the DC because it is rather low for a 20th level PC that would take 25 days to create. Because of rounding up for the Armor we can round this to Roughly 3 weeks.

32 weeks + 3 weeks = 35 weeks

So if you can find a 15th level Gnomish Armor Expert you can have your +5 Huge Full Plate it just about 35 weeks. As long as your BBEG doesn't mind waiting 3 weeks for the summoner to take his time enchanting the armor afterwards.

My only question is how often are you going to come across +5 Huge Full Plate and + 5 Huge Steel Shield? It is up to the DM to keep balance through out the game and if he/she is handing out this kind of loot I would be scarred for the life of my character because there could be another Summoner out there with a very similar Eidolon.

I agree that normally it would be based on the class level. However, in the case of these Oracles abilities they do not show up under the class advancement chart as gain Curse/Revelation bonuses. So it confused me a little. It makes me think that the bonuses are driven more from the ability than the level of the class. Wish it would be more specific saying class level because in the rules it does say "most of which are based on the total number of class levels" not all of which.

In the Oracle class there are many time that it says you gain an improvement on a Curse or Revelation based on your level. In many of them they do not specify that it is class level just at a certain level you gain an increased Bonus.

Clouded Vision: Your eyes are obscured, making it
difficult for you to see. You cannot see anything beyond
30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision. At 5th
level, this distance increases to 60 feet. At 10th level, you
gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet. At 15th level, you
gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.

So does this mean that whether I am a 15th level Oracle or a 3 Oracle/12 Monk I will have blind sight?

Maneuver Mastery (Ex): Select one type of combat
maneuver (see page 198 of the Pathfinder RPG Core
Rulebook). When performing the selected maneuver,
you treat your oracle level as your base attack bonus
when determining your CMB. At 7th level, you gain the
Improved feat (such as Improved Trip) that grants you
a bonus when performing that maneuver. At 11th level,
you gain the Greater feat (such as Greater Trip) that
grants you a bonus when performing that maneuver.
You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive
these feats.

In this example does it mean I get the improved and greater maneuvers no matter my combination of classes?

I'm just using these two abilities as examples. The Oracle class has many other times when this would come up and my DM wanted clarification. Another question I had was whether or not you could take a revelation like Maneuver Mastery multiple times? It doesn't mention it anywhere that I saw.

Thank you