There are things that wont be hit by your tarrasque as well. A cleric, a wizard or even a bard can avoid it.
Only through invisibility. The Tarrasque has ranged attacks now, so flight doesn't help at all. And Clerics can't go invisible, so no, they can't avoid a Tarrasque's attack.
The point is that it's trivial to make an Eidolon that is a literal "I Win" button against melee opponents. You don't even have to sacrifice large amounts of evolution points or cash to do it.
I do think an eidolon should be very powerful at lvl 20 but I see your point. I've been reading the evolutions, and the size increase evolutions are a bit underpriced. It almost forces the eidolon to grow.
With "large"(3 points) the eidolon gains:
+8 Str (this alone would be 4pts)
+4 Con (2pts)
Natural armor 2 (1 pt)(not subject to natural armor limit)
-2 dex (I'll count -1)
Large size (I'll count 0, it has pro/con)
Total: 3 X 6 points
With huge it's almost the same thing. the natural armor bonus doesn't count against the limit.
With just improved natural armor you would be limited to 2/5lvls.
I suggest then that no NA is included in the size increase evolutions, since they are underpriced and not counting against limits.
Also, there should be an equal viability to eidolons that remain medium.
(I would still ask for decent Int/Cha eidolon options)
(I would still ask for decent Int/Cha eidolon options)
I second this. There's all kinds of cool concepts there, but the starting mental stats leave much to be desired, and improving them is difficult.
Isn't the point of a "pet class" caster to have a physically imposing or threatening pet? What would be the point of a INT/WIS/CHA Eidelon if not spell casting? That seems to be an end run around the point of restricting the Summoner's spell list or spells per day.
Among other things, Frightful Presence is based off Charisma. With Charisma being +0 base, that means it's incredibly difficult to get Frightful Presence to any meaningful DC.
Also, the spell-like ability evolution is quite expensive, so there's already a check and balance for trying to do an end-around.
Any blacksmith can make the base gear. Enchantments can be provided by the Summoner. Masterwork Huge non-humanoid full plate is 12,150 gold, which isn't even as much as Adamantine full plate. A masterwork Huge steel heavy shield is only 310 gold.
My only question is how often are you going to come across +5 Huge Full Plate and + 5 Huge Steel Shield? It is up to the DM to keep balance through out the game and if he/she is handing out this kind of loot I would be scarred for the life of my character because there could be another Summoner out there with a very similar Eidolon.
Summoner can craft items, maybe they do have a use other than being friends with a monster. It may be the GM's place to keep balance, but a huge suit of armor isn't that hard to find. At the point where a player can afford +5 anything, the cost of commissioning a bunch of blacksmiths to make it bigger isn't that much.
Among other things, Frightful Presence is based off Charisma. With Charisma being +0 base, that means it's incredibly difficult to get Frightful Presence to any meaningful DC.Also, the spell-like ability evolution is quite expensive, so there's already a check and balance for trying to do an end-around.
Also, if you're making an Angel/Fiend summoned companion, you'll need some mental stats to make your pet look like one of those. (Not everyone must have a strong and stupid pet)
The Eidolons recieve 6+int skill/level, and you choose 4 skills. With an interesting mental build you could have a skilled pet instead of a brute one.
If the eidolon gets spell-like abilities, their DC will based on CHA. It is a fact that spell-like abilities are overpriced, but this could be fixed as well.
I would reduce the cost/ level of the spell as the summoner gains levels. An example: If your summoner level is equal to four times the spell level, the cost is halved. (This is just a thought a better solution could be made to fill the eidolon with lower lvl SLAs)
I really likes the class all in all. Very strong, should be adjusted for sure. This AC thingy is indeed something to think about.
Too bad they are impossible to play in Planescape :(
I'll join the chorus of WTF AC. Eidolons at any level are *extremely* powerful, and at level 20 they're degenerate. The high AC alone isn't the problem; it's that in addition to it, they have ridiculous physical statistics, and access to absurd defensive abilities like alignment damage reduction and spell resistance.
In regards to boosting their AC further, share spell and summoner spell list gives it a nice extra boost.
Barkskin for further natural armor 10min/lvl
Reduce Person for a little AC and fitting where huge things can't go, keep most of the strength and all the natural armor 1min/lvl
Mage Armor if your GM won't allow you to have any huge armor 1hr/lvl
Shield spell for extra AC without sacrificing an arm. 1min/lvl
Few other spells that make them harder to hit but for sake of completeness
Cat's Grace 1min/lvl
Haste 1r/lvl
Invisibility/Greater 1r/lvl
Blur 1min/lvl
Displacement 1r/lvl
One last note for people scared of Dismissal/Banishment, Dimensional Anchor your pet, as A GM I would still allow those two spells to work since they're not listed in dimensional anchor, but rules might be otherwise.
So if you can find a 15th level Gnomish Armor Expert you can have your +5 Huge Full Plate it just about 35 weeks. As long as your BBEG doesn't mind waiting 3 weeks for the summoner to take his time enchanting the armor afterwards.
Need to remember that next time anyone asks for something made out of special materials or high level magic items, those don't exist, too much work. But seriously, it's a fantasy world, and if you really wanted a huge suit of armor you could commission 100 peasant armor crafters to make it piece by piece in about a week taking 10 for a 14. Although if you want to stick by the rules, they'll have trouble making the masterwork component.
Point is that most of the time armor crafting is not a one man job, and when it is, you're right, it takes forever. But it's not really that much longer than anything your average party of adventurers normally has.
3e crafting rules are completely broken anyway. So you just ask a 9th-level wizard.
And hope he actually has the skill.
3e crafting rules are completely broken anyway. So you just ask a 9th-level wizard.And hope he actually has the skill.
You can make Craft checks untrained, in which case he's working with a minimum of a +3 to the skill. One +4 enhancement bonus from a spell makes it a +5. At which point, you only need a magic item that gives you a +5 to Craft (armor), and Take 10 will allow you to make masterwork suits. When you make a minimum of 1450gp in profit from making a single suit of full-plate with this technique (450gp for casting + 1500gp for the suit - 500gp raw materials), you can afford the 2500gp to buy the magic item that allows you to do it.
Guys, if you're going to argue it's too hard to get armor made for an eidolon, then it's too hard to build for PCs as well.
"I'm sorry Mr. 17th level paladin, but it will take several months for your ridiculously expensive armor to be ready. I know you could buy a small city for the cost of this +5 adamantine ghost touch full plate of speed, and even though our world is magical beyond belief and I'm obviously a fantastically gifted artisan, the rules say I just cannot deliver before Omnilich the Buggerer kills us all."
That just doesn't fly for me. The point of accumulating fantastic amounts of money in-game is to buy cool things that we can then have fun using... not roleplaying the sit-in-the-waiting room game. If that's how your game swings, fine, but those of us buying armor for our eidolons are only making the same assumption we make when we build PCs: money buys equipment, not boredom.
If I was to DM and a PC really wanted something like that I would create a tough but not impossible quest that would bring them to an area where Giants live because it is more likely that they would have huge armor around.
Would you say the same thing if someone wanted to bard their horse? Horses are, after all, Large creatures.
And really, this is entirely irrelevant to the point. Going from Medium to Huge nets the Eidolon a grand total of 3 AC (and -2 Touch AC).
However, an Armorsmith may have a small or medium piece of Armor that you are looking for already in the shop because all PC classes are of those size categories. So it's very likely you'd be able to spend your money on it. But if someone is so worried that an Eidolon of size huge gets +5 Full Plate then there is a way that the DM can say it is not possible at this time because what Armorsmith would just have a Huge Full Plate waiting around. If I was to DM and a PC really wanted something like that I would create a tough but not impossible quest that would bring them to an area where Giants live because it is more likely that they would have huge armor around.Guys, if you're going to argue it's too hard to get armor made for an eidolon, then it's too hard to build for PCs as well.
"I'm sorry Mr. 17th level paladin, but it will take several months for your ridiculously expensive armor to be ready. I know you could buy a small city for the cost of this +5 adamantine ghost touch full plate of speed, and even though our world is magical beyond belief and I'm obviously a fantastically gifted artisan, the rules say I just cannot deliver before Omnilich the Buggerer kills us all."
That just doesn't fly for me. The point of accumulating fantastic amounts of money in-game is to buy cool things that we can then have fun using... not roleplaying the sit-in-the-waiting room game. If that's how your game swings, fine, but those of us buying armor for our eidolons are only making the same assumption we make when we build PCs: money buys equipment, not boredom.
And that is only regarding a bipedal humanoid shaped eidolon. What about the 4 armed, 6 legged winged one (i know an exhaggeration but you get my point)? These would certainly have to be custom made, likely by the summoner himself. I think the eidolon should be listed as strictly non-humanoid, regardless of how it is made to appear. A major balancing factor could be the availabilty and cost of armor for it.
Does no one understand that the Eidolon isn't a creature that is just walking around Armorsmiths are planning to make money off of making them armor.
<Summoner PC enters armorsmithy>
Summoner: "Good Master Smith! I wish to commission a suit of armor for my companion, and I will pay top price!"Smith: "It'll take <xyz time> and cost <pqr gold>. Also, I'll need to have access to your ... friend ... periodically for measurements."
Summoner: "Glad to do business with you!"
Where, precisely, is the problem with this? "Off-the-rack" full plate is a total myth. Every suit of full plate has to be custom-made, that's why it was historically so expensive.
Does no one understand that the Eidolon isn't a creature that is just walking around Armorsmiths are planning to make money off of making them armor.<Summoner PC enters armorsmithy>
Summoner: "Good Master Smith! I wish to commission a suit of armor for my companion, and I will pay top price!"
Smith: "It'll take <xyz time> and cost <pqr gold>. Also, I'll need to have access to your ... friend ... periodically for measurements."
Summoner: "Glad to do business with you!"Where, precisely, is the problem with this? "Off-the-rack" full plate is a total myth. Every suit of full plate has to be custom-made, that's why it was historically so expensive.
Given the actual rules for magic armor off the rack is not a myth, it is in fact commonplace in a dnd setting. Magic armor resises to fit anyone of the same size category and general body shape (such as humanoid). It doesnt have to be custom made. For a huge creature with 4 legs 2 wings and a tail on the other hand, they likely dont have something in stock.
Given the actual rules for magic armor off the rack is not a myth, it is in fact commonplace in a dnd setting. Magic armor resises to fit anyone of the same size category and general body shape (such as humanoid). It doesnt have to be custom made. For a huge creature with 4 legs 2 wings and a tail on the other hand, they likely dont have something in stock.Does no one understand that the Eidolon isn't a creature that is just walking around Armorsmiths are planning to make money off of making them armor.<Summoner PC enters armorsmithy>
Summoner: "Good Master Smith! I wish to commission a suit of armor for my companion, and I will pay top price!"
Smith: "It'll take <xyz time> and cost <pqr gold>. Also, I'll need to have access to your ... friend ... periodically for measurements."
Summoner: "Glad to do business with you!"Where, precisely, is the problem with this? "Off-the-rack" full plate is a total myth. Every suit of full plate has to be custom-made, that's why it was historically so expensive.
Congratulations on missing the forest for the trees and not answering the question.
Or, for those obstinate sorts:
"My eidolon is the exact size and shape of a draft horse, please make me barding for it. Please disregard it's magenta coloring, opposable hooves, and its icy breath."
Eidolons are whatever you describe them to be. Arbitrarily limiting armor availability based on player imagination is fairly logical, but boring as all hell. Way to defeat the whole point of the class, you know?
And finally if the DM thinks your Eidolon's AC will be to big he can just say no. That's the great thing about a good DM he knows when to say no to something that will break the game and make it less fun for the other players.
And wouldn't it be easier if you couldn't get the Eidolon's AC so high that it breaks the game? That's what this entire thread is about, after all.
Congratulations on missing the forest for the trees and not answering the question.Given the actual rules for magic armor off the rack is not a myth, it is in fact commonplace in a dnd setting. Magic armor resises to fit anyone of the same size category and general body shape (such as humanoid). It doesnt have to be custom made. For a huge creature with 4 legs 2 wings and a tail on the other hand, they likely dont have something in stock.Does no one understand that the Eidolon isn't a creature that is just walking around Armorsmiths are planning to make money off of making them armor.<Summoner PC enters armorsmithy>
Summoner: "Good Master Smith! I wish to commission a suit of armor for my companion, and I will pay top price!"
Smith: "It'll take <xyz time> and cost <pqr gold>. Also, I'll need to have access to your ... friend ... periodically for measurements."
Summoner: "Glad to do business with you!"Where, precisely, is the problem with this? "Off-the-rack" full plate is a total myth. Every suit of full plate has to be custom-made, that's why it was historically so expensive.
I do believe we were discussing the comparative availability of armor between Joe Fighter and an Eidolan. Therefore unless you have moved to a new forest, i noticed the trees just fine.
Armorer Bob is a 7th level adept he has taken the master crastman and craft magical arms and armor feat.
He owns a store. He can in fact have half a dozen suits of +1 full plate ready to go at any time for passing adventurers. Maybe 4 medium sized and 2 small. Because chances are someone will buy them if the town is reasonably busy, and the turnaround time is better. He doesnt even have to make them. He could have bought them from other adventurers for half price and sell them for full price. 20 minutes ago suit a was worn by a 6'1 130lb elf woman. She however doesnt want it anymore and sold it to Armorer Bob for half price. Armorer bob now puts that suit up on the shelf. Mark the Paladin a 5'4 250lb human male walks into the store, tries on suit A fits like a charm and he buys it from Armorer Bob for full price.
This cannot be replicated for more then 2/3rds of eilodans. Therefore in the game system we play, it is very reasonable to assume that armor for a humanoid PC will be far more available then for a eilodan.
I do believe we were discussing the comparative availability of armor between Joe Fighter and an Eidolan. Therefore unless you have moved to a new forest, i noticed the trees just fine.
1) No, we were discussing that some people want to make armor for Eidolons virtually impossible to get.
2) You still havn't answered my question.3) (this is just humor) The expression is "you're missing the forest for the trees", meaning that you're too intent on the trees and are completely missing the forest, ie, the big picture. Saying "I noticed the trees just fine" only reinforces that ;)
Maybe I'm missing something, but I honestly don't understand the problem. If a Summoner wants to put all of his points into the Improve Natural Armor, it won't be able to do anything else. And the touch AC is still going to get it killed.
Sure the big bad fighter won't do much to it, but that's what wizards are for.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I honestly don't understand the problem. If a Summoner wants to put all of his points into the Improve Natural Armor, it won't be able to do anything else. And the touch AC is still going to get it killed.
Sure the big bad fighter won't do much to it, but that's what wizards are for.
You don't have to put all your points into INA. My example Eidolon (which is hardly optimized) put 0 points into INA and still had a 55 AC with only armor and shield -- no buffs, no additional magic items, no feats, no evolution points spent on AC aside from Large and Huge.
I do believe we were discussing the comparative availability of armor between Joe Fighter and an Eidolan. Therefore unless you have moved to a new forest, i noticed the trees just fine.1) No, we were discussing that some people want to make armor for Eidolons virtually impossible to get.
2) You still havn't answered my question.
3) (this is just humor) The expression is "you're missing the forest for the trees", meaning that you're too intent on the trees and are completely missing the forest, ie, the big picture. Saying "I noticed the trees just fine" only reinforces that ;)
My mistake then.
1 - in that case, it would never be impossible the conjurer could always make it himself, its just a matter of the time it would take. And it comes down to the pacing and style of the adventure/campaign.
2- I wasnt responding to your 'where is the problem with this', there isnt one in my view, I was responding to the off the rack is a myth part.
3- I never really did like that expression.
Large and huge eidolons can be overpower but as a good gm one should make then small dungeons and stuff like that. Making the player thing that taking a huge or large eidolon was a bad idea.
For the third or fourth time this thread, going from Medium to Huge is a grand total of +3 AC. Going from Small to Huge is a grand total of +1 AC. Huge isn't the issue.
For the third or fourth time this thread, going from Medium to Huge is a grand total of +3 AC. Going from Small to Huge is a grand total of +1 AC. Huge isn't the issue.
But you gotta admit, some of the other bonuses for medium-> huge are pretty degenerate, eh?
So I've been reflecting on the armor situation, and I think I've got a solution.
First, a premise: all worn and held equipment goes with eidolon when it dies/ is dismissed. It does not return when the eidolon is re-summoned. It is not part of the magic that calls the creature, so it's left behind in its native plane.
Instead of conventionally building and purchasing armor, you pay for it out of the evolution pool. It'd look something like this...
Native Armor (su) - whenever you summon your eidolon, it appears equipped with its native armor. The armor disappears when the eidolon is banished or killed, but otherwise functions like regular armor. It counts as magic armor with CL = eidolon's HD.
1 pt - Light Native Armor: +3 AC, max dex +6, check penalty -1, arcane fail 10%
2 pts - Medium Native Armor: +6 AC, max dex +4, check penalty -3, arcane fail 20%
3 pts - Heavy Native Armor: +9 AC, max dex +2, check penalty -5, arcane fail 35%
4 pts - Super Native Armor: +12 AC, max dex +0, check penalty -7, arcane fail 50%
1pt - Armor Training: increase the maximum dex of your armor by 2, reduce it's check penalty by 2, and reduce its arcane spell failure by 10%
This gives decent latitude for armor of all sorts. It rides the line, being marginally better than the armor in the books, but initially worse than, say, mithril variants of the same.
For the third or fourth time this thread, going from Medium to Huge is a grand total of +3 AC. Going from Small to Huge is a grand total of +1 AC. Huge isn't the issue.But you gotta admit, some of the other bonuses for medium-> huge are pretty degenerate, eh?
So I've been reflecting on the armor situation, and I think I've got a solution.
First, a premise: all worn and held equipment goes with eidolon when it dies/ is dismissed. It does not return when the eidolon is re-summoned. It is not part of the magic that calls the creature, so it's left behind in its native plane.Instead of conventionally building and purchasing armor, you pay for it out of the evolution pool. It'd look something like this...
Native Armor (su) - whenever you summon your eidolon, it appears equipped with its native armor. The armor disappears when the eidolon is banished or killed, but otherwise functions like regular armor. It counts as magic armor with CL = eidolon's HD.
1 pt - Light Native Armor: +3 AC, max dex +6, check penalty -1, arcane fail 10%
2 pts - Medium Native Armor: +6 AC, max dex +4, check penalty -3, arcane fail 20%
3 pts - Heavy Native Armor: +9 AC, max dex +2, check penalty -5, arcane fail 35%
4 pts - Super Native Armor: +12 AC, max dex +0, check penalty -7, arcane fail 50%
1pt - Armor Training: increase the maximum dex of your armor by 1, reduce it's check penalty by 1, and its arcane spell failure by 10%
The numbers notwithstanding i think going through the evolution pool for both weapons and armor would be better then giving it the ability to use magic items. It also solve the what happens to my pets armor when it goes away problem. It should replace the armor profficiency evolutions though. That way you can still have your angelic armor weilding wrath pet, but you dont have to worry about opening up the eidolon to magic armor.
Something similar for weapons would be nice as well. It keeps the power of the eidolon internalized to the evolution system, and not subject to the outside potential of loot and magic items. Let the summoner spend money on himself and evolution points on his eidolon.
The numbers notwithstanding i think going through the evolution pool for both weapons and armor would be better then giving it the ability to use magic items. It also solve the what happens to my pets armor when it goes away problem. It should replace the armor profficiency evolutions though. That way you can still have your angelic armor weilding wrath pet, but you dont have to worry about opening up the eidolon to magic armor.
Something similar for weapons would be nice as well. It keeps the power of the eidolon internalized to the evolution system, and not subject to the outside potential of loot and magic items. Let the summoner spend money on himself and evolution points on his eidolon.
I agree with this. I don't much like Maeloke's example numbers (and some of the text has me scratching my head), but the concept is agreeable. Replace Improved Natural Armor and Armor Training with "built in armor" evolutions and replace Weapon Training with "built in manufactured weapons" and you solve a bunch of problems at once.
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Large and huge eidolons can be overpower but as a good gm one should make then small dungeons and stuff like that. Making the player thing that taking a huge or large eidolon was a bad idea.For the third or fourth time this thread, going from Medium to Huge is a grand total of +3 AC. Going from Small to Huge is a grand total of +1 AC. Huge isn't the issue.
Going medium to huge is a +5 boost to NA not +3, going from large to huge is the +3.
Aside from all that, I'm for lowering inherent Natural Armor bonuses as well. Make players spend evolution points to get better ACs, I built an eidelon completely ignoring defense, and by 15th level its AC was 30, I didn't armor it or put any points into nat armor. That's a respectable AC without trying. and it's not hard to get a much better AC then that considering all you have to do is increase dex and give it some armor. This was in a creature who's Dex never got boosted by abilities, never took any defensive abilities, and was unarmored. 30 AC at level 15 is respectable, hell I know plenty of creatures of higher CRs with only a 30-40AC so to have that without trying at level 15 is a bit much.
Going medium to huge is a +5 boost to NA not +3, going from large to huge is the +3.
Yes, and going from Medium to Huge also gives a -2 size modifier to AC. Thus, +5 natural armor -2 size = +3 total armor, which is what I said.
Thank you for supporting my point, however.
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Going medium to huge is a +5 boost to NA not +3, going from large to huge is the +3.Yes, and going from Medium to Huge also gives a -2 size modifier to AC. Thus, +5 natural armor -2 size = +3 total armor, which is what I said.
Thank you for supporting my point, however.
Sorry I've read through the entire thread and so kept hearing natural when you said AC that last time because most of the thread people have been saying natural AC. I was agreeing with your point and thought you just had a minor mistake, the mistake was in my long thread reading comprehension.
Director of Game Design
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Hey there folks,
It has become rather obvious to me that there is a bit of a disconnect and power imbalance here with the armor training evolution. This also ties into the eidolon gear questions... and magic items slots.
I am going to review the issue and do some revisions here later on today. I will post them in a sticky to this board.
Until then... this thread is locked.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing