My eidolon can beat up your fighter


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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@wraithstrike.

You are correct. stupid reading...

This would reduce his average damage to 24 (+10 2h strength +6 power attack and +7 for average damage, +1 for enchantment on sword), and the extra 10 Hp would be moot (but it it would still get the bonus Hp from favored class that was not factored in).

Everything else in my post remains the same. I still think trogg kicks the crap out of the summoners pet.

Thanks for the catch Wraith.

love,

malkav

Dark Archive

Draeke Raefel wrote:
So far I have only seen 1 person post a play test on the the forums and they said that the eidolon was equivalent to the other APG classes. It is kind of pointless to argue the relative merits or OP value of a class without having played it in an actual game. Numbers crunching only gets you so far.

That the eidolan is the equivalent of other unproven/unbalanced beta testing version classes is the yardstick we should be using?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

No, I don't see a problem, since as I see it, my player could kill the eidolon in 3, maybe 4 hits without much issue at all. And if it attacked him, it has approximately a 25% chance of hitting, and even if it does hit, he has more than 50% more HP than it does. And that's not even comparing it to our dwarven fighter, who blows the barbarian out of the water on a regular basis.


xJoe3x wrote:


I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I agree completely.

And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.


Lord oKOyA wrote:
Cydeth wrote:
No, I'm saying that my 10th level, non min-maxed barbarian is as powerful as the relatively min-maxed 10th level eidolon. Completely different situation.

?!?

The class feature of one class is roughly the equivalent/equal of another entire class and you don't see a balance issue?

I see a few player's upset that they are constantly upstaged by another player's "pet" while that player is still a functioning caster in his/her own right.

The players pet in this case is the majority of the class.


Mahrdol wrote:

DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

+100

and beyond that...it really needs to be play tested to get the whole situation figured out. Balance in D&D is about whether a single character can steal the show from the entire party on a consistant basis, not who can beat who one on one, or whe is better against a specific creature or even creature type.

If he turns out to be a better fighter then the fighter AND a better wizard then the wizard you have a problem...

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Heladriell wrote:


I agree completely.
And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.

It is not an issue of a class feature beating a fighter or barbarian but rather replacing them.


Lord oKOyA wrote:
Heladriell wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:


I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I agree completely.

And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.

It is not an issue of a class feature beating a fighter or barbarian but rather replacing them.

Well its a good thing the summoner definitely does not replace either.

Dark Archive

xJoe3x wrote:

The players pet in this case is the majority of the class.

Exactly, the majority (your opinion) but not the entirety. The summoner is still a caster, who can also summon 3+ times a day (with a longer duration), has his own actions to perform, HPs to share with the eidolan, etc etc etc


Lord oKOyA wrote:
Heladriell wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:


I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I agree completely.

And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.

It is not an issue of a class feature beating a fighter or barbarian but rather replacing them.

True... if this is the case you have people creating Eidolons and getting a Summoner as a Cohort.


Lord oKOyA wrote:
Heladriell wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:


I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I agree completely.

And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.

It is not an issue of a class feature beating a fighter or barbarian but rather replacing them.

Many classes fill the same niche though...I dont consider it a problem really if there is an arcane class that emulates a front line fighter. If it is so much better that it makes all other Melee classes weak by comparison, it needs to be nerfed. But again I would aledge that it needs to be actually play tested to prove that point. Numbers can easily be made to argue in anyones favor.


Mahrdol wrote:

DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

Is the Eiodolon a little too tough? Maybe I am going to start one for Pathfinder society and see hows it go. My initial reaction I think the only change Eidolon needs is to get the Druid companion D8 HP and follow the Druid's Animal companion HD progression.

By changing the the Eidolon HD you are changing the rules that have already been set for an outsider. As an outsider the Eidolon gets a d10 and that I am sure is not going to change. I'm pretty sure that Jason has came out and said that the Eidolon is a more intregal part to the summoner class than the Animal Companion is to the Druid. I mean think about it this way a Druid can cast more spells per day, has the Animal Companion and then wild shape. If I had to equal the Eidolon to a class feature that a Druid has I would say it would almost have to be equal to the Animal Companion and Wild Shape because the Summoning SLA and Casting of a Summoner is probably about equal to the Casting of the Druid.

Sovereign Court

Lokie wrote:
Lord oKOyA wrote:
Heladriell wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:


I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I agree completely.

And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.

It is not an issue of a class feature beating a fighter or barbarian but rather replacing them.
True... if this is the case you have people creating Eidolons and getting a Summoner as a Cohort.

that's almost exactly how the summoner i'm creating for playtest is turning out lol


Cydeth wrote:
No, I don't see a problem, since as I see it, my player could kill the eidolon in 3, maybe 4 hits without much issue at all. And if it attacked him, it has approximately a 25% chance of hitting, and even if it does hit, he has more than 50% more HP than it does. And that's not even comparing it to our dwarven fighter, who blows the barbarian out of the water on a regular basis.

If your party is as potent as you say, then either they're fantastically well-equipped or they have die-rolled stats. I actually cannot figure out how to score an AC of 35 with a barbarian using the officially outlined ~60k gold you're supposed to have at level 10, never mind leaving enough for weapons or anything else. And I'm a *good* munchkin. You're comparing these guys to a non-optimized point-bought creature with 8k in gear.

lastknightleft wrote:
So what your saying is that your 10th level barbarian is about equal to the eidelon if you ignore the fact that the eidelon is merely a class feature and you still have a strong caster that is bringing in more and more monsters.

Nail on the head, you and the others who've caught my drift.

Everyone else: That much of this debate is coming down to variant skill strategies and 5-10 hp differentials already demonstrates my point. Despite my thread title, all that's important to me is that there is significant doubt about the outcome of a fight between a single class feature and an entire PC. That ain't balanced, and though I can hardly expect perfect balance, it really isn't cool to quasi-obsolete a whole range of classes.

lastknightleft wrote:
that's almost exactly how the summoner i'm creating for playtest is turning out lol

Heh, mine too. I've actually been wishing it were easier to raise the eidolon's int, 'cause then I'd just play it as the main character, putting up with the dopey little ball and chain summoner with tired patience.


WarmasterSpike wrote:


Many classes fill the same niche though...I dont consider it a problem really if there is an arcane class that emulates a front line fighter. If it is so much better that it makes all other Melee classes weak by comparison, it needs to be nerfed. But again I would aledge that it needs to be actually play tested to prove that point. Numbers can easily be made to argue in anyones favor.

He is the smartness.


xJoe3x wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

Is the Eiodolon a little too tough? Maybe I am going to start one for Pathfinder society and see hows it go. My initial reaction I think the only change Eidolon needs is to get the Druid companion D8 HP and follow the Druid's Animal companion HD progression.

I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I think the Eidolon more then make up for it with his evolutions. I won't be upset if nothing changes either. That is my gut reaction. I am building my new summoning character now and I will test it when I get the go ahead to use them in pathfinder society. I think the class is exciting and goes in a good direction for 3.75.


Kolokotroni wrote:

I wouldnt have a problem with not being able to use magic armor, but magic weapons is a different story. Against some enemies you need either magic weapons or alignment/special material weapons or you are basically doing nothing. Everyone runs this risk in a surprise encounter, but if you are expecting it (going werewolf hunting or something) there should be a way for you to equip your eidolon for it.

I agree that magic gear can be a serious concern here, and i would rather see it limited or eliminated in favor of keeping the eidolon as it is. Its hard to eliminate the coolness factor of allowing it armor and weapons, but from a balance standpoint i would rather see it get only a single magic item slot of either neck, head, cloak or belt, and everything else has to come from physical evolutions (natural armor, or attack enhancements).

If you take the magic attacks evolution you can sheath your sword and go to natural weapons to overcome DR.

That being said while i could min-max out an Eidelon to go toe to toe with a fighter, i could also take a druid into wizard, then prestige class into mystic thurge and my animal companion will wreck the same Eidelon at level 10. I feel the class is fairly weak without the Eidelon, and needs it.

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xJoe3x wrote:


Well its a good thing the summoner definitely does not replace either.

And we know this because you say so? You can say this definitively ? Anything to back this up other than your pronouncement?

I'm merely suggesting (as are others) that the issue needs investigation, yet it would seem that this is unnecessary from your viewpoint. Should we forgo the playtest?

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Lokie wrote:


True... if this is the case you have people creating Eidolons and getting a Summoner as a Cohort.

And this would be an issue then IMO.


Mahrdol wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

Is the Eiodolon a little too tough? Maybe I am going to start one for Pathfinder society and see hows it go. My initial reaction I think the only change Eidolon needs is to get the Druid companion D8 HP and follow the Druid's Animal companion HD progression.

I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.
I think the Eidolon more then make up for it with his evoloutions.

I would have to disagree.


I am saying the agruement of obsolesence is a very big stretch until you actually play test it. There isnt a whole lot of offense in that spell list to call it a strong caster for example, and numbers seldom tell the whole story in terms of feat interaction, strategic versatility, and ability versus differing oponents...not to mention that the majority of the arguement seems to be switching from 1 vs 1 to 1 vs the enemy at the convinience of the person posting.


lastknightleft wrote:


True... if this is the case you have people creating Eidolons and getting a Summoner as a Cohort.

That was pretty much my first impression of the class. Don't get me wrong, its a good class, but it moves the focus from the main character beyond my 'comfort zone'. This has been a partial problem with the druid before, except that the druid was still good enough on its own to be worth playing, so to speak. In a combat-heavy game, it feels like you're gonna be playing your Eidolon more than your own character, which I'm still debating to see whether its a bad thing or not. Then DMs may be tempted to banish/dispel the thing repetitively, because it seems like the strategic move to do; which can be frustrating for the player who grew to rely/love playing his eilodon.

Again, the class is good, but it feels like it doesn't belong alongside most of the other characters classes. It brings a whole new feel to the game that deserves its own setting, one without the typical 'mage' and cleric.

obviously, your mileage may vary...

'findel

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Lokie wrote:
True... if this is the case you have people creating Eidolons and getting a Summoner as a Cohort.

Of course, the summoner could then get another summoner as cohort by taking Leadership ...


Lokie wrote:
Lord oKOyA wrote:
Heladriell wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:


I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

I agree completely.

And I don't see a problem with a mighty summoned creature, that is the core feature a of a class, beating a fighter or a barbarian.

With leadership anyone can have a moderately powerful cohort, and it's just a feat. The summoner must have something more powerful.

It is not an issue of a class feature beating a fighter or barbarian but rather replacing them.
True... if this is the case you have people creating Eidolons and getting a Summoner as a Cohort.

And replying to myself...

And so it begins -LINK


Hmm, that 20th level eidolon's attacks pack a powerful punch- around 49.5 damage on a successful hit- if all four hit that's 198 damage. But consider this- the accuracy of each of these attacks are quite low- that first attack only has a 70% chance to hit a target with an AC of 36 (the average of a CR 20 monster, according to the back of the bestiary). Most fighters will be MUCH more accurate, taking into accound that a level 20 fighter should have a +5 weapons and all.


MinstrelInTheGallery wrote:
Hmm, that 20th level eidolon's attacks pack a powerful punch- around 49.5 damage on a successful hit- if all four hit that's 198 damage. But consider this- the accuracy of each of these attacks are quite low- that first attack only has a 70% chance to hit a target with an AC of 36 (the average of a CR 20 monster, according to the back of the bestiary). Most fighters will be MUCH more accurate, taking into accound that a level 20 fighter should have a +5 weapons and all.

Eidolon stats are while power attacking, which drops its to-hit by 5 and raises damage by 15. I was attempting to replicate common fighter and barbarian tactics; they DO love their damage. A 20th fighter will be more accurate overall, but at the expense of damage from having lower strength.

WarmasterSpike wrote:
I am saying the agruement of obsolesence is a very big stretch until you actually play test it. There isnt a whole lot of offense in that spell list to call it a strong caster for example, and numbers seldom tell the whole story in terms of feat interaction, strategic versatility, and ability versus differing oponents...not to mention that the majority of the arguement seems to be switching from 1 vs 1 to 1 vs the enemy at the convinience of the person posting.

Fair critiques; I've been being hyperbolic in order to make my point, but I think I've argued enough theory.

I'll be back with playtest results in the near future, though, and I don't know how they can not confirm my point.

Scarab Sages

Frankly, I have to side with the OP. I've done a lot of comparisons myself over the last few days. I've taken all of the 'warrior' PCs my players have made over the last few campaigns (updated a couple to PRPG) and tried to make an Eidolon that could rival them. In almost every case it seems like the Eidolon is, at least STATISTICALLY, better. More effective in combat, more effective in skills, and they're a freaking class feature! :)

It's definitely worse than the old 3.5 'my animal companion is better than your fighter' argument. Not by a lot, but still, I do agree the eidolon needs some toning down. The size bonuses they get from Large alone is pretty crazy.


Karui Kage wrote:
The size bonuses they get from Large alone is pretty crazy.

I think this is one of the big problems. I know that the bonuses/penalties given are the standard size-changing rules, but I just don't think it's a good idea here.


MaverickWolf wrote:
Karui Kage wrote:
The size bonuses they get from Large alone is pretty crazy.
I think this is one of the big problems. I know that the bonuses/penalties given are the standard size-changing rules, but I just don't think it's a good idea here.

I think its fine. There are some nasty negatives to being big, in most of my campaigns it would mean I would be without him like half the time.


Maeloke wrote:

I'm not just saying it, I'm providing evidence. Even if a fighter, ranger, barbarian, or paladin could go toe to toe with an eidolon, its only barely just. Allow me to demonstrate:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

That you stopped the two combatant's progressions just before the barbarian got his second attack aside, advantages go as follows:

Initiative: Barbarian
Senses: Barbarian
HP: Barbarian
AC: Eidolion
Saves: Barbarian
Defensive Abilities: Barbarian
Accuracy: Barbarian
Melee Damage (single action): Barbarian
Melee Damage (full-round action): Eidolion
Ranged Damage: Barbarian by default
CMB/CMD: Barbarian

I know which one I'd rather not piss off.

Granted, the eidolion has some advantages in the form of summoner buffs and hp-sharing, but the hp-sharing can be as much of a drawback as an advantage, and the eidolion has significant drawbacks as well, such as vulnerablity to dispelling and banishing.

Also, if I were the barbarian I'd start round one with an Intimidate check to demoralize for an average of two rounds, then ready an attack. The dumber, melee-only eidolion moves forward for an attack, which statistically misses. Barbarian then grapples the eidolion and bites him each round for free. Advantage goes to barbarian for the win (better grapple modifier, wins CMB vs. CMD on average roll, with the reverse being true for the eidolion, plus free bites for the barbie).

I'm not saying the eidolion isn't perhaps a little too powerful (I feel that he probably is), but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be here.

Dark Archive

MinstrelintheGallery wrote:
Hmm, that 20th level eidolon's attacks pack a powerful punch- around 49.5 damage on a successful hit- if all four hit that's 198 damage. But consider this- the accuracy of each of these attacks are quite low- that first attack only has a 70% chance to hit a target with an AC of 36 (the average of a CR 20 monster, according to the back of the bestiary). Most fighters will be MUCH more accurate, taking into accound that a level 20 fighter should have a +5 weapons and all.

I'm of 2 minds on this. Each of the fighter's iterative attacks takes a cumulative -5 penalty whereas the greatest negative an eidolon is going to take is -2 on it's secondary attack.

Tentaculous( not really optimized, all free ability points spent on str ):

AC = 32, 36 with Mage Armor

BAB 17
Bite( primary ) + 26 ( 2d6+8: Avg15 )
Claws( as secondary attacks ) + 24 ( 1d4+1d6+4: Avg 10 )
Tentacles( as secondary attacks ) + 24( 1d4 + 1d6 + 4: Avg 10 )

quadraped +bite +limbsx2(legs)
Str 26, dex 22, con 13, int 7, wis 10, chr 11

Multi-attack, Weapon Focus Tentacle, skill focus( Stealth ), weapon focus( claw )
evolutions
2x claws = 2 points
pounce = 1 point
Magic Attacks = 1
Racial Skill( Stealth ) 1 point
Mage Armor 1xday = 1 point
Greater Invisibility 3x day = 5 points
Energy Attacks = 2 points
13x Tentacles = 13
Total points = 26


So the thing stealths until it finds it's prey, uses greater invisibility when it finds it's prey and then uses charge/pounce.

Round 1 with pounce( +2s from charge factored in )
1 bite hits 65% = 9.75 dam
4 claws hit 50% = 20 dam
13 Tentacles hit 50% = 65 dam

That's fairly respectable... I haven't made a fighter recently so I will leave that to someone else as a correct build changes the damage considerably( and keep in mind this build wasn't exactly optimized to begin with ). If the Eidolon is not able to bypass the creatures damage reduction with his attacks, the damage is much, much less as each individual attack is doing less damage. Obviously changing his size to huge would have increased damage output and made a serpentine grab build more effective.

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Just for the record, as I have seen it mentioned more than a few times, the eidolan is not subject to dispelling (a 3rd level spell that does not grant a save or SR). They are subject to dismissal (a 4/5 level spell that grants both a Will save and SR) and it's bigger brother banishment (a 6/7 level spell that also grants a Will save and SR).

The Exchange

Lord oKOyA wrote:
Just for the record, as I have seen it mentioned more than a few times, the eidolan is not subject to dispelling (a 3rd level spell that does not grant a save or SR). They are subject to dismissal (a 4/5 level spell that grants both a Will save and SR) and it's bigger brother banishment (a 6/7 level spell that also grants a Will save and SR).

In keeping with the fighter vs eidolon argument: If only a fighter could cast those spells.*

*straight up fighter that is, though multiclassing wise, they'd be more wizard at that point to get to the levels to be able to cast it... and we'd have to look at the higher levels than say 5th which would make it out of reach.


Whited Sepulcher wrote:
In keeping with the fighter vs eidolon argument: If only a fighter could cast those spells.

Not relevant. The real test isn't "which would win", but "which contributes more to the role of 'party melee guy'. And to that issue, the vulerability to banishment and dismissal is very relevant.

Dark Archive

Whited Sepulcher wrote:
Lord oKOyA wrote:
Just for the record, as I have seen it mentioned more than a few times, the eidolan is not subject to dispelling (a 3rd level spell that does not grant a save or SR). They are subject to dismissal (a 4/5 level spell that grants both a Will save and SR) and it's bigger brother banishment (a 6/7 level spell that also grants a Will save and SR).

In keeping with the fighter vs eidolon argument: If only a fighter could cast those spells.*

*straight up fighter that is, though multiclassing wise, they'd be more wizard at that point to get to the levels to be able to cast it... and we'd have to look at the higher levels than say 5th which would make it out of reach.

A fighter could easily cast these spells. especially at later level. It's only a dc 20 use magic device check to use a staff or wand.

Scarab Sages

Rake wrote:
Whited Sepulcher wrote:
In keeping with the fighter vs eidolon argument: If only a fighter could cast those spells.
Not relevant. The real test isn't "which would win", but "which contributes more to the role of 'party melee guy'. And to that issue, the vulerability to banishment and dismissal is very relevant.

Depends on what campaigns you run. I pretty much run the APs, and it's not often the enemy casters really take the time to prepare Banishment and Dismissal. I could see it if they knew about the party ahead of time in some cases, but even IF the Eidolon gets dispelled or banished (which is likely a rare event) the Summoner is still a very relevant class and can summon tons of little baddies to fight.

The problem here isn't that the Eidolon is a good replacement for the Fighter, it's that the SUMMONER + EIDOLON is an AWESOME replacement for the Fighter. :)


I know I'm not allowed to say this on these boards, and I'll likely get banned for doing so, but I'm going to say it anyway.

If the eidolon can outfight the fighter, that doesn't mean the eidolon is too strong. Instead, maybe, just maybe, it's more evidence that the fighter (and to a lesser extent, all of the other warrior classes) are totally outclassed at higher levels: by their enemies, by their teammates, by summoned monsters, and now by a pet.

This has been a well-studied as a major system problem since the advent of 3.0, and all the cries in the world of "but... teamwork!" and "well, we coddle our fighters, so they do fine!" don't fix the underlying issue; they just ignore it.

If fighters had actual class features (armor training doesn't count for much) -- things like the ability to ignore illusions, knock flying creatures out of the air, cut through magical defenses, effectively run interference for their teammates, disrupt spells -- then the eidolon wouldn't step on their toes at all, and every party would want a fighter, too.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

I appreciate the point of this thread and it is well made.

A lot of the disconnect comes from the armor issue with the eidolon. There are some power issues here that I am going to address later on today. Look for a sticky post on this board. Until then.. lets just hold tight.

This thread is locked.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

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