Frumple's page

One important thing you should possibly make use of..

Have a HD requirement. That way you can control the power of some of the demonic possessions.. for instance: It isn't the same if you're possessed by a Balor or a Dretch..

You could also influence this by saying.. If you have less then xx HD, then you get completely possessed and loose all sentience.. Effectively killing a character.
IF you have more or equal HD to the requirement, you get to struggle. And this is what the feat chain/prestige class would represent. A struggle to gain the demon's power and keep it at bay without losing your mind.

Hey.

I have done a level-progressing plan for my Necromancer for Curse of the Crimson Throne, and at the seventh level, I'm going to take a Improved Familiar. What would be the best of them? Homunculus-same alingment as me? Mephit? IMP?

What would be good improved familiar?

Obviously you've figured out that the 7th level ones are really the only ones worth it.

Those are listed as follows:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-d/devil/imp
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-h/homunculus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-m/mephit
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-d/demon/quasit
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-p/pseudodragon

Now, they all have their own roles and foci, but of them all I feel the Salt Memphit is the most powerful.
Gliterdust 1/hour and the pretty cool dehydrate ability make for a solid familiar. Top that with the usual goodness of Use Magic Device and outsider HD and you're golden.
Besides, it might have some flavor with your necromancer. Use Dehydrate to drain moist from undead. Embalm bodies, preserve organs... silly stuff like that :D

Hope that helps!

PS: If your DM allows you to get the "special" Imp, that's the most powerful one.

Did he say anything about an updated version of the pdf with the corrections coming out sometime this week.

If yes, I haven't seen it yet.

PS. Ouch! Just found a bloody needle in my keyboard O.o wth?!

Issues I see with the Summoner:

• Summon Monster I should be renamed "Summon Monster" to clarify that it is indeed a single ability, and not 10 SLA's gained over 20 levels with each castable 3+Cha times per day. It should be noted that Augment Summoning works on it.
  
• It is unclear why Augment Summoning doesn't work on the Eidolon(It was so stated by Jason Bulmahn). Summon Eidolon is a Summoning ability, same as Summon Monster. The wording on Augment Summoning: "Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it."
  Please note that since the feat specifically states "Spell" Spell-like ability should be out of the question, and yet it isn't. Adding a clarification on this inside the class description would be advisable.
  
• Using "Empower Spell-Like ability".. RAW(Read as Written) you should be able to take Empower Spell-Like Ability at level 6+ and have it affect all your spell-like abilities you gain through "Summon Monster". Since it is a single ability(confirmed) and not multiple ones.
  I'm not going into weather your DM will allow you to take Monster feats.
  
• Various Eidolon evolutions(mainly dealing with primary/secondary attacks) should be clarified or written more clearly.
  
• Missing Languages known on the Eidolon

Things I feel should be changed:

• The "Summon Monster" spell-like ability should be limited to having only one casting of the spell(whichever you cast) active at any one time. This should be rather self-explanatory. The ability is too powerful.
  
• Summoner should be a Intelligence focused caster with a slight edge on Charisma. Not the other way around.
  
• Remove Medium BaB and in return either grant more spells/day, spells known, or Good Fortitude save. Medium BaB is worthless since you *should* be casting spells nearly every combat round. And CMD will either way be boosted through the feat Combat Defense Training.
  
• Perhaps add Augment Summoning as a bonus feat at level 3, either way EVERY Summoner will have it at level 3, this could be a good way to elevate the need for Spell Focus(Conjuration) which is a rather iffy feat, since most Conjuration spells don't even offer a save.(true, some good ones do, but do you see all of them at the Summoner's Spell list?)
  
• IF it is decided to keep the Summoner as a Charisma focused caster, I'd recommend a skill boost to 4+int
  
• A Summoner has excellent flavor of a "Knowledge, hidden Lore and Power" seeker. This is why I feel it is IMPERATIVE to add some kind of option to expand his spell known/available list.

That's it for now.. I think there is much more work to be done. Keep em coming and I'll try to update this post.

I do not belive that there is much of a problem here.

first, you are assuming in your post that all summoners would have at least 16 as their charisma scores (and strongly hinting that an 18 charisma score is likely). there's a name for this type of charracters- Minmax PCs. so, surprise surprise, a minmax could be very powerful in certain aspects of his character. do not forget though, that by having a solid BAB and hit dice and the abilty to weare armor, the summoner shoul be expected to perofrm well physically in a combat, not just stand back and cast spells like a wizard.

also, its not like a 1st level summoner can cast 8 1st level spells a day or something, he can cast summon monster 1 6 times and another couple O spells. that's fine, because its not very modifiable. helpful, but not offering any tatical adventage aside from strength of numbers, which is only helpful under certain conditions.

I STRONGLY resent anyone saying that anyone caring for a character and wanting to do what he thinks would make a character more powerful is a "min/maxer".

Honestly, if you just make a bleeding Gnome Summoner, you've done quite a bit of optimization all in itself. If you were starting with a Wizard would you start with 14 int? I don't think so. The same with a Summoner. I'd start with 16 Cha, and get +2 Racial and that's 18 already. What have you been playing all these years of 3.5e?

Also, any Summoner with a grain of salt in his brain wouldn't go Melee. He'd grab a light crossbow or a Shortbow( For elves) and whack away in range.. Or use his Acid Splash cantrip.

By the way, A minute is 10 rounds, not 6.

Even worse in my context :D Tnx.

Honestly... you should just give it a try! It's a playtest... sometimes things that look overpowered when you read them end up not being overpowered in actual play, and vice versa.

True, but when I play it, I will try my best not to do any overpowered stuff. I don't want to make my DM cry, nor do I want other players to feel weak in comparison.

But this won't stop some of the more rude players, and frankly DM's should be and are weary of such stuff, this is why I fear it to be disallowed by my DM.

True, the spell list is a huge hit, but at first level, a Summoner is FAR OFF where a Wizard is, in terms of power.

He even has Grease(Which btw should be every Summoner's 1st spell selection).. Grease is a encounter finisher at levels higher then 1 too, that's how strong it is.

Also he has Mount, which frankly he doesn't need, since any prospectable Gnome Summoner will most likely ride his own Eidolon. :) But Mount places a large chunk of meat somewhere on the map, pure battle-field control. And it lasts 2hours at level 1 :D And you can use it for allies too.

Mage Armor sharing with Eidolon is also normal. However, a Summoner should never "know" Mage Armor. Use scrolls, or a wand.(Probably not available from 1st level, but still).

Hello Paizo and fans!

Well, I must say, both the Summoner and the Witch are extremely fun classes, I'd love to play them both. However a problem presents itself with starting level power curves and the Summoner.

At first level, you as a Summoner have 6-7 Daily uses of Summon Monster I, 2-3 1st level spells and 4 Cantrips usable At Will. WOW.

This is 4 spell slots more then a Focused Specialist Conjurer at level 1(AT THE MINIMUM!).
Frankly, if I were running a 1st level campaign and a player came up to me with a bard who would have the ability to Summon Monster I for 1minute(6 rounds, as opposed to 1 round for a Wiz..) 6-7 times per day, I'd just right out smack him on the head.
----------------------------------------

I've already asked my DM on a PbP game to let me use the Summoner for a soon-to-start game, however I fear he may share my opinion.

What can be done to elevate this issue of too much power at lower levels?

Question regarding Summoner's SLA's.

Does a Summoner's Summon Monster ability work independently for each Summon Monster level, or is it drawn from a single "pool".

For instance:

Summoner level 3:
Summon Monster I; Cha+3/day
Summon Monster II; Cha+3/day

OR

Summon Monster(I or II); Cha+3/day

Durn it, I can't seem to be able to get to my downloads, so can't download it - .-

ERIK: What shouuld be call the company?

JAMES (eating pie): I like pie. So how about....
ERIK: PAIZO! That's it!
JAMES: What's it?

Hahah, made me LoL :D

If I calculated this correctly, it is almost 8AM over there at Paizo.. - .- still plenty of time to wait :_(

Damn you time zones! /Shakes fist in anger!

I guess Paizo can be happy they have a eager community such as this where we actually make hype threads for the pre-release of classes all by ourselves :D

Duskblade 6/Abjurant Champion 4/Eldritch Knight 10

Yeah I went there. Abjurant Champion. If your DM lets you then you totally should.

This is an example of a poor build. Why would any Duskblade need any levels in Eldritch knight? you're just loosing on the 13th level spell to full attack ability. Which IMO should be the prime reason you take Duskblade.

Outside of that, I thought we were sticking to PFRPG Core only?

I think the main thing why I dislike playing a Bard as a "gish" type is due to the spells.

Sure, bards get some awesome spells. But they don't go beyond lvl 6.. Which is a darn shame.

Where a usual Transmuter Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Fighter+1/Wizard +3

Has a BaB of 16( 4 attacks) and 9th level spells! That's a HUGE difference to the casual bard who flings 6th level spells.. This is what I'd like to call a proverbial gish.. It won't get much more stereotypical then this.. A total of 5 Combat feats and 1 wizard feat boosts him just enough to be great!

You can even go with a Sorcerer focused build, if you wish to.. However there is a catch, you have to sacrifice a 4th att, or 9th lvl spells..

Lets see:
Sorcerer 6/Paladin 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Paladin +1/Sorcerer +2

This is a fairly nice build, no 9th level spells however. However, you also sport the awesome Charisma synergy.. And the awesome Smite Evil ability which lets you ignore any DR from the meanie you're using it against. Pretty good build all in all, a bit focused on Melee.

Or go Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Sorcerer +3

Bingo we get a Sorcerer 9th level bloodline power! 9th level spells, and BaB of 15..(Meh)

From an optimization point of view, these are all better then a durn Bard 20. And who says you can't spare a skill point to get into perform! :D

The only reason bards were used in 3.5e as a base for some gishes was due to the fact that there existed a few tricks to make em powerful(Snowflake Wardance, and more notably the Sublime Chord)

My fairly low level Gnome Illusionist used Silent Image to create a porn industry for himself...

He built a tent, much like a circus one, got a plank and wrote

"Whatever woman no matter how fair or noble will dance naked for you inside! Just bring a picture and let your dreams guide you!
PS: Entry Fee: 10sp
PPS: Only available several times per day"

And thus he slowly started growing and expanding his "industry". Eventually he got to Major Image and the like.. which involved a whole lot of closed rooms and horny perverts inside them.. :) Not to mention the fee was MUCH bigger.

The power of the Roman legionnaire didn't come from throwing Pilums, or hiding behind Tower Shields, or being trained or using a Gladius in close combat.

The power of the Roman Legion came from the LEGION. There wasn't one soldier trained like that, there were many, and they worked coordinated. Something unheard of back then. Only once before had such a thing happened, and that was Alexander the Great, and he conquered half the world..

Thus, instead of improoving the weapons, give the man some Tactical Feats(Look in the Complete Warrior) that represent the Roman Legion.

Also, regarding the Pilum, you could just say that every hit adds weight and ACP, after about two hits it becomes so tough that they'll eventually drop it.

Whaaaaat! O.o Since when can't they use their Teleportation abilities :_(

Damnit Paizo should have made a "changelog" from 3.5 >.<

I think you are underestimating the use of a Lantern Archon as a SM III. The thing is this, it gets Greater Teleport at will! How sexy is that!

Imagine this! You just found some sexy statute made of gold. However everyone is quite overencumbred already. Hmm, what to do.. Nobody has a bag of holding yet(not likely). I know, summon monster 3, get a lantern archon, describe your cellar to him, give him the item and whoop, he ports it away to your cellar.

He then returns and does the same with all the uneccesary items you carry.

Hmm, how about a large chunk of a Dragon's Horde... Lets see how much gold a Lantern Archon from a CL 5 conjurer can carry.. That's 10 rounds of duration. You spend 1-2 rounds to show him a picture of your cellar and show him the map of the location etc.. leaves you with 8 rounds of teleporting, that's 4 carry trips, 4x50=200 lbs of gold.

If I recall, 50gp =1 lb, thus 50x200 = 10000gp! You just hijacked 10k gp from a dragon with a 3rd level spell! Oh boy, that's one pissed off dragon! :D

NOW IMAGINE THAT WAS PLATINUM!

You could rob a bank with this!(LoL, this sounds like a interesting character concept!) :D

Hmm, well I hadn't thought of that.. Bummer - .-

And here I was all stoked for this thingie :_( Ah well, back to the drawing board!

Ah well, just ignore me, my hopes have been sunken- .-

The rune domain doesn't function as I read it.

Since you are focusing on Pathfinder, you might want to make a note somewhere of a feat in Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide found here: http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/adventurePath/v5748btpy806v
Page: 11

That feat is naturally Acadamae Graduate. Basically you get Rapid Spell for all your summoning spells for free, however with a drawback of making a fortitude save vs Dc: 15+spell level or be fatigued( possibly exhausted after 2 failed saves?).

I think it deserves a serious mention in your guide, as it is a amazing feat and with some optimization could become a staple of the summoning focused GOD.

Ah, but in comparison doesn't every specialist gain abilities that are comparable in power?(to some extent, I agree that the diviner's abilities are truly the best, or close to it.)

And to boot, the very first and foremost reason for why to specialize are the bonus spells you gain. However the Diviner suffers greatly in that department since Divination spells are considered vastly sub-par to just about any other school.

Shouldn't that warrant a reduction in prohibited schools?

Hello everyone, I'm kinda new to the Pathfinder boards and I've come here to basically get help in clarifying an issue.

Namely this:

Why does a Pathfinder Diviner specialist Wizard have to chose two opposed schools? Do you consider a Diviner to be of the same magnitude in power as a specialist from any other school, or was that some kind of error in the SRD? Are there any plans to change that?