Arcanist Optimization Guide


Advice

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Yeah, I had a hard time deciding on how to rate it, and only picked a color after much waffling. It's great when you need it, but only a subset of foes have spellcasting levels. If the ability allowed you to counter SLAs as well, I would be all over that.

It can become anything from somewhat useful to pretty useful at higher levels, where you have tools to help you overcome your more limited spells per day, and where creatures with innate spellcasting become more common.

Since it's only situationally useful (whereas EVERY spell can benefit at least a tiny amount from a boost to either its caster level or its save DC), the counterspelling exploit can't be blue. But it isn't red by any stretch of the imagination. Whether it's orange or green is really a matter of your DM's table expectations.

In a campaign revolving around dragons, rakshasas, or cults of divine spellcasters? By all means pick it up. In a campaign about stemming the tide of an invasion of giants? Not so much. (Although I suppose the final encounter in Rise of the Runelords would be hilariously anticlimactic if the party arcane caster were a counterspelling arcanist.)


Thelemic_Noun wrote:

That's what the counterspell version of dispel magic is for. It gives you a chance to stop another spell of higher than 3rd level, but with no guarantee.

Counterspelling works on a principle essentially equivalent to Newton's Third Law: equal and opposite reaction.

If the wizard 9/bloatmage 4 is throwing 7 spell level's worth of necromancy magic at you, you need to provide 7 levels of magic tailored to oppose it in order to cancel it out.

Otherwise, there's a chance the effect might still get through.

And if counterspelling only required an AOO, casters of all stripes would be forced to run through their spells per day very very quickly, as counterspelling would become too easy, and everyone would do it.

Counterspelling would become the D&D equivalent of the Blue Shell from Mario Kart.

Dispel Magic is indeed a very nice spell, but it can only be used when you can use a full spell, as in, on your turn or by standing around waiting and hoping you actually get to use it, thus it is useless for anything you didn't see well ahead of time (as far as counterspelling anyway).

Newton's third law is only needed if you need to completely cancel out all the energy to nothing, but really all that is needed to disrupt a spell energy so it can't form properly (thus a Dispel can affect higher spells, but what about at lower levels before dispel can be learned?).

Besides, nothing wrong with easy counterspelling, after all spells per day are limited, thus it becomes a tactical choice of countering a spell or saving resources to use later, which has always been the point of limiting spells per day anyway (use the spell energy now, later), otherwise, without that choice between using your resources now or later, what would be the point in not allowing a wizard to cast their spells at will? So where is the "forcing" coming from?

So long as a an option has limited use but with many more opportunities then uses, there will be an element of strategy about when and how to use said option. This is why 15-min workday is an issue, it makes uses vs opportunities more equal.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Since it's only situationally useful (whereas EVERY spell can benefit at least a tiny amount from a boost to either its caster level or its save DC), the counterspelling exploit can't be blue. But it isn't red by any stretch of the imagination. Whether it's orange or green is really a matter of your DM's table expectations.

In a campaign revolving around dragons, rakshasas, or cults of divine spellcasters? By all means pick it up. In a campaign about stemming the tide of an invasion of giants? Not so much. (Although I suppose the final encounter in Rise of the Runelords would be hilariously anticlimactic if the party arcane caster were a counterspelling arcanist.)

I suppose. If "SURPRISE SPELLCASTER" is a common motif your GM uses then having a counterspell ready whenever could be gold.

I'm mostly looking at this from a PFS standpoint. There will likely only be one or two spell casters in a given PFS scenario, only 3-5 fights, so you should have enough spare spell slots to counter a few things, especially if you went school savant.

Also you should change the bit about Slashing Grace. Blade Adept can't really use it to any worthwhile effect. Dervish Dance just always wins.


GM DarkLightHitomi wrote:

Besides, nothing wrong with easy counterspelling, after all spells per day are limited, thus it becomes a tactical choice of countering a spell or saving resources to use later, which has always been the point of limiting spells per day anyway (use the spell energy now, later), otherwise, without that choice between using your resources now or later, what would be the point in not allowing a wizard to cast their spells at will? So where is the "forcing" coming from?

So long as a an option has limited use but with many more opportunities then uses, there will be an element of strategy about when and how to use...

The problem with easy counterspells is just...well what if as a GM you want to have a big bad lich be the final boss? And you aren't planning on having a pile of extra super strong minions all over?

If the party caster can easily counter everything the lich does then the boss is not at all a threat. One guy stands around and counters, everyone else pounds on him.

To some people that is fine and balanced. These are the same people that think the Cape of Feinting* is fine and balanced. These people are wrong.

*Cape of Feinting allows a swashbuckler of 7th level or higher to stand in one place using his standard action to remove DEX to ac from a target and daze it for one round. Daze means it can take no actions, not even free actions. There is no save or attack roll. And they can do this every round forever.

The item should have been reworded to add the daze only when the cloak ability (which is 3/day) is used by a swashbuckler with the superior feint deed. As written it triggers every time superior feint is used...and that ability has no cost. It would still be an amazing item. But at least not a broken one.


Zwordsman wrote:

Are there any rules on unlettered and blade adept? Blade adept makes your black blade a familiar like thing.. and prevents any familiars from any ohter way.

So could you use a black blade as your familiar to commune with for spells?
(i'm in a home game so I was gonna sk my gm anyway, and he likely won't mind).
because witch spell list combined with spellstrike and say eldritch knight can make a debuff version of a magus. Witch has some really really amusing touch attacks that cause various fun effects.

I would recommend against that, because the only touch spells the witch gets that the arcanist doesn't are frostbite (1st level spell that deals nonlethal damage and fatigue, but can't make a target exhausted), poison (4th level, 1d3 Con per round for 6 rounds, Fort negates, SR negates, Fort each turn to prevent damage for that round and end spell early), and slay living (6th level, SR negates, ~57 damage on failed Fort save, ~26 damage on successful Fort save).

While spell strike with slay living may sound awesome, remember that you don't get it until character level 14, by which point the spell's terrible scaling (it's designed to be good when the cleric gets it at level 9, but be garbage by the time finger of death and destruction come on line) and the fact that it's a level higher make it almost not worth it. Spending a 6th-level slot for 50-60 damage with a save to reduce by over half is a bad trade.

And while any sane DM would allow you to use your black blade as a familiar for purposes of storing spells, the rules as written do not permit it. You could theoretically take both archetypes, but you would have nothing in which to store your spells, and thus could not prepare spells.


DirkSJ wrote:
GM DarkLightHitomi wrote:

Besides, nothing wrong with easy counterspelling, after all spells per day are limited, thus it becomes a tactical choice of countering a spell or saving resources to use later, which has always been the point of limiting spells per day anyway (use the spell energy now, later), otherwise, without that choice between using your resources now or later, what would be the point in not allowing a wizard to cast their spells at will? So where is the "forcing" coming from?

So long as a an option has limited use but with many more opportunities then uses, there will be an element of strategy about when and how to use...

The problem with easy counterspells is just...well what if as a GM you want to have a big bad lich be the final boss? And you aren't planning on having a pile of extra super strong minions all over?

If the party caster can easily counter everything the lich does then the boss is not at all a threat. One guy stands around and counters, everyone else pounds on him.

If you want this, you've already lost. Single bosses don't work because of the action economy.

I don't even need counter spells. A barbarian will do just fine; just ready an action to hit the lich mid-spell. The lich fails his concentration check due to 30+ points of damage. So easy counterspelling doesn't make much difference. A wand of magic missile can do the same thing.


Personally, if I were trying to make that encounter work, I'd rule that since the lich can't feel pain he doesn't need to make concentration checks when damaged, so the barbarian would need to grapple or trip him or get rid of his pouch to stop him.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

If you want this, you've already lost. Single bosses don't work because of the action economy.

I don't even need counter spells. A barbarian will do just fine; just ready an action to hit the lich mid-spell. The lich fails his concentration check due to 30+ points of damage. So easy counterspelling doesn't make much difference. A wand of magic missile can do the same thing.

First off, why would the lich let the barbarian get to melee range straight away?

Even if they do, 5 foot step back, cast spell. Barbarian cannot attack and wasted an entire turn. If the barb has Step Up there are other ways to slip away that don't provoke like the teleportation school ability. Party has an archer on ready-action-interrupt? Precast/contingency/staff windwall. There are easy answers for setting up a big bad solo wizard to be a fun and fair fight.

If counterspells are made too easy and automatic then there's nothing the GM can do to have this kind of encounter. The only answer to easy counterspells is hand-waving and saying "he cant be countered because REASONS" which is lame.


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main issue i have with counterspelling: for an arcanist, you're hard-pressed to have a high enough slot to counter whatever big guns people are throwing at you due to sorcerer spell advancement (which is why i said it might be pretty cool for an exploiter wizard)


At high levels, the need for equal-level or greater slots to counterspell is less of an issue if you're fighting 6-level casters. If I'm reading the tables right, the Arcanist gets access to 4th level spells 2 levels earlier, 5th level spells 3 levels earlier, and 6th level spells 4 levels earlier. Eventually, spending a 3rd level spell to counter the enemy Bard's Confusion or Haste should be no problem.

Against 9th-level spellcasters, immediate action counterspelling might still be useful. When the enemy Wizard tries to protect himself with Mirror Image or escape with Invisibility, you have an answer. When he quickens True Strike to hit the Monk with something nasty, you have an answer. When he throws a Maximized Empowered Fireball to obliterate the horde your Summoner just put on the field, you have an answer. When he thinks he can Slow the Fighter, you have an answer. And when he wants to Dispel the Water Breathing spell that got you into his underground lair, you have an answer.

Wannabe wizards have low level spells worth countering as well. The Magus will lose much of his power if you counter every one of his Shocking Grasps. The Bard won't be able to save that nasty giant from your Witch's Slumber Hex if you counter his Saving Finale. And the Inquisitor will have trouble getting into fighting form if you deny him Divine Favor.

We haven't even discussed 4th Level casters! The Paladin might think he's awesome because he has access to the Litany spells and amazing saving throws. When you're around, he's wrong.

I'm not going to deny that the counterspell exploits are situational. I also can't evaluate their efficacy in the context of Pathfinder Society or prepared modules. However, it seems unwise to discount the exploits because they can't stop the Big Bad Evil Guy's Ultimate Spell of Doom. They're for stopping his backup plans or denying him support so your Barbarian can prevent said spell using more traditional and exciting methods.


Thaliak wrote:
However, it seems unwise to discount the exploits because they can't stop the Big Bad Evil Guy's Ultimate Spell of Doom.

Actually, it can. The problem is that it's very rare that the enemy is a caster with the same caster level as you, the same highest-level spell slot as you, and something like a DC 35 save-or-lose. In that case, yes, it is quite useful.


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AndIMustMask wrote:
main issue i have with counterspelling: for an arcanist, you're hard-pressed to have a high enough slot to counter whatever big guns people are throwing at you due to sorcerer spell advancement (which is why i said it might be pretty cool for an exploiter wizard)

Here is probably the best thing for counterspelling, and it is not even an exploit

Just look at the rules for dueling here and see how great it is


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You may want to add the following exploits to your guide, as there are some real gems here:

From Advanced Class Origins:

Altered Shifting (Su): When the arcanist is under the effect of a spell of the polymorph subschool that she cast, she can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to change to another valid form allowed by the spell. This reduces the spell’s caster level by 1, which can take the spell’s caster level below the minimum caster level necessary to cast the spell, and reduces the spell’s duration if applicable. The arcanist must have the Lepidstadt shifter exploit to select this exploit.

First-World Face Thief (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to assume an illusory disguise as disguise self. If she expends 2 points from her arcane reservoir instead of 1, the duration of the effect increases to 10 minutes per level.

First-World Illusion Catcher (Su): The arcanist gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against illusions. If the arcanist successfully disbelieves an illusion, she can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to try to negate or steal control of the illusion. The arcanist attempts a caster level check as if she were dispelling the effect with dispel magic. If she succeeds, she can either end the effect or alter it as if she were the spell’s caster. If the spell’s duration is concentration, the arcanist must concentrate on the new effect or it ends. The arcanist must have the first-world face thief exploit to select this exploit.

Lepidstadt Shifter (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to cast a spell while under the effects of a polymorph spell. This ability works like Natural Spell, except the arcanist uses the ability to cast while under the effects of a spell instead of wild shape.

Nidalese Shadow Veil (Su): By expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir, an arcanist can pull a veil of shadows around her, making her more difficult to spot and strike. The arcanist gains concealment (20% miss chance) and a +5 bonus on Stealth checks. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to 1 + the arcanist’s Charisma bonus.

Sonic Blast (Su): The arcanist can loose a deafening blast of sonic energy by expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir and succeeding at a ranged touch attack against any one target within 30 feet. The blast deals an amount of sonic damage equal to 1d6 + the arcanist’s Charisma modifier, plus an additional 1d6 points of sonic damage for every 2 levels beyond 1st (to a maximum of 10d6 at 19th level). The target is also deafened for 1 minute. The target can attempt a Fortitude save to halve the damage and negate the deafness.

Third Eye (Su): The arcanist can open her eye of the Arclord one additional time each day by expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir. She can gain more uses, but each subsequent use costs 1 additional point from her reservoir (2 points for the second additional use, 3 points for the third use, and so on). The arcanist must have the Eye of the Arclord feat (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide 286) to select this exploit.

I'm particularly fond of Lepidstat Shifter. Now if only they would make Shapeshifting Mastery a non-mythic option.


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Also from the new book: Eldritch Aid feat can be selected as an exploit.


Has anyone seen any builds that seem viable for simulating the blockbuster wizard but with using an Arcanist? I have tried different builds using School Savant and I find myself lacking feats as if I had just gone Crossblooded Sorcerer.

I tried one build with a dip in to Crossblooded Sorcerer as well as one that was pure School Savant once I realized the delay to level 7 before getting 3rd level spells seemed harsh.

With Sorc(Aasimar):

CB Sorc 1: Feat:Spell Focus(Evocation)
School S2:
School S3: Feat:Spell Specialization(Burning Hands)
School S4:
School S5: Feat: Greater Spell Focus(Evocation)
School S6: Exploit:Dimensional Slide
School S7: Feat: Extra Arcanist Exploit(MetaMagic Knowledge(Intensified Spell))
School S8:
School S9: Feat: Spell Penetration
School S10: Exploit: Potent Magic
School S11: Feat:Dazing Spell
School S12: Exploit: School Understanding(Void:Reveal Weakness)
School S13: Feat: Quicken Spell
School S14: Exploit: Quick Study
School S15: Feat: Spell Perfection(Fireball)
School S16: Exploit: Redirect Spell
School S17: Feat: Greater Spell Penetration
School S18: Exploit: Counterspell
School S19: Feat: Maximize Spell
School S20: Exploit: Greater Counterspell

Without Sorc(Human):

School S1: Feat:Spell Focus(Evocation) Feat:Spell Spec.(Burning Hands)
School S2:
School S3: Feat:Greater Spell Focus(Evocation)
School S4:
School S5: Feat:Extra Arcanist Exploit(Potent Magic)Exploit:Dimensional Slide
School S6:
School S7: Feat: Extra Arcanist Exploit(MetaMagic Knowledge(Intensified Spell))
School S8:
School S9: Feat:Dazing Spell Exploit: School Understanding(Void:Reveal Weakness)
School S10:
School S11: Feat:Quicken Spell Exploit:Greater Metamagic Knowledge(Empower Spell)
School S12:
School S13: Feat:Spell Penetration Exploit:
School S14:
School S15: Feat:Spell Perfection(Fireball) Exploit:
School S16:
School S17: Feat:Greater Spell Penetration Exploit:
School S18:
School S19: Feat: Exploit:
School S20:

I seem to always be stuck with an inability to take Spell Penetration until very late in addition to only being able to take a few key MM feats, leaving the rest to rods. Also I can never seem to find a slot for a familiar which is always a great thing to have.
Could this just be a case where a Wizard or Sorcerer would be better for the role of an Evoking Wizard?


kestral287 wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

The difference really is that, for most classes, Cha is pretty much /only/ used for skills. It's the only stat that doesn't have some general application to every character.

That said, there's another thread making note of going Sorcerer 1/Arcanist X and dropping an Exploit on Bloodline Development to get... almost all of the Sorcerer's class features. The Arcanist can also do this with a Wizard, by dropping an Exploit on School Understanding (and possibly Familiar). How do people feel about the viability of one or the other of these? Or even both, really, doing Sorcerer 1/Wizard 1/Arcanist X with Magical Knack to shore up your CL and banking on the broadened abilities to make up for being a spell level behind. Seems interesting, but I'm not sure how good it'd be.

This is bad because you'll be so far behind on what spells you have access too. it'll take you till level 6 for your arcanist to gain 2nd level spells, while a wizard or sorcerer would have 3rd level spells.

Eh, I'd probably space them out a bit depending on which archetype I went for, but point taken.

On the subject of the guide: I'm thinking Eldritch Font is massively underappreciated. Eldritch Surge is Potent Magic that you don't have to pay a point for. Look at it like Barbarian Rage-Cycling. Off the bat, take Human, grab Heart of the Fields, you can ignore Fatigue once per day. Later on, when you have some gold, pay 7500 to grab a Cord of Stubborn Resolve. Personally, I'll gladly take 1d6 points of nonlethal in order to get Potent Magic on everything I cast. Requiring a swift action isn't exactly fun, but it's not going to be critical early on.

Later on, when you have some more points to throw around, you can use the Surge's other abilities in conjunction with Potent Magic. Save-or-Die looks funny when you bump the DC up by two AND can make them re-roll.

Admittedly, I might be reading the RAW wrong... but is 'ignoring' an effect the same as removing it? Heart of the...

While I wouldn't dip in both Sorc and Wiz, I've been looking at a single level dip in to sorcerer to create a blaster. He obviously wouldn't be optimized but he'd be exceptionally good at what he did.

Dip crossblooded Orc/Draconic, drop an exploit in to Bloodline Development and School Understanding (admixture).Trait bonus to bring your CL back up and the only thing you're behind on is spell level. . . yet your dropping hot fire at crazy caster levels (hey, metamagic master + intensified!) on all sorts of things. Selective spell makes things even more scary if you want to Fireball everything. Find some time to drop two Eldritch Heritage feats to get Elemental Blast and suddenly you're making things Vulnerable, with +2 for every d6.

The question is...when you take Crossblooded and then Bloodline Development, do you only get to choose one of your Bloodlines to raise at your Arcanist level?


Did.. advanced classs origins come out already?


Notes on School Understanding:

Foresight school's Prescience ability doesn't need to scale, it's broken-good already.

Life School's Share Essence is fairly good without using a point from your pool.

Universalist's Hand of the apprentice is crap at all levels... unless you happen to be a blade adept arcanist with spell strike, at which point it becomes a way of delivering touch spells at range. Not fantastic, but a lot better than for everyone else.

Also suggesting that Arcane Weapon becomes better if you're a Blade Adept.

Of course, the flaw with the last two is that you have to be a Blade Adept, which isn't exactly a great archetype. :(


StackOverflow wrote:

Has anyone seen any builds that seem viable for simulating the blockbuster wizard but with using an Arcanist? I have tried different builds using School Savant and I find myself lacking feats as if I had just gone Crossblooded Sorcerer.

I tried one build with a dip in to Crossblooded Sorcerer as well as one that was pure School Savant once I realized the delay to level 7 before getting 3rd level spells seemed harsh.

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

two things, 1 your school savant can't pick up school understanding.

2. I suggest you go normal arcanist and just grab school understanding admixture. that way it uses up 1 exploit instead of 3.


Chess Pwn wrote:
StackOverflow wrote:

Has anyone seen any builds that seem viable for simulating the blockbuster wizard but with using an Arcanist? I have tried different builds using School Savant and I find myself lacking feats as if I had just gone Crossblooded Sorcerer.

I tried one build with a dip in to Crossblooded Sorcerer as well as one that was pure School Savant once I realized the delay to level 7 before getting 3rd level spells seemed harsh.

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

two things, 1 your school savant can't pick up school understanding.

2. I suggest you go normal arcanist and just grab school understanding admixture. that way it uses up 1 exploit instead of 3.

The more I look at it the more I am in agreement with giving just the base Arcanist a go. I am currently working on putting something together with what FuzzyIllogic said:

fuzzyillogic said wrote:


A possible good use for the Arcane Weapon exploit would be with a 1-level dip in Wizard Spellslinger.
Lose another spell level vs wizard, but for a potential +5 DC on some spells. With the right spells and/or metamagic and the Potent Spell exploit could be devastating.

I am thinking perhaps just Spellslinger 1/Arcanist 19 although Blood Arcanist is really appealing with this build. Dealing with the delayed spell progression is the sacrifice though, and it is a big one.


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Actually, I posted an arcanist build for blasting that I thought was pretty good. It was deleted because the build name was a portmanteau of "arcanist" and the name of a certain organization known for blowing things up whose name also starts with "a."

Potent Magic is better than Spell Specialization because it can be used with ANY blast spell for a +2 caster level, rather than just burning hands (and later fireball). But in a dedicated blaster build, you will want to have both, since they stack.

And you want school savant for the Intense Spells power.

With caster level boosts, spell penetration feats are not necessary.

sample blaster build:

Human School Savant (evocation [admixture])
Traits: Wayang Spellhunter (fireball), magical lineage (fireball)

Level (caster level for main blast, caster level for main blast spending reservoir point):

1 (3, 4): Spell Specialization (burning hands), Spell Focus (evocation)
2 (4, 5):
3 (5, 6): Intensify Spell (yes, I know you'll need to wait a level, but it's still worth getting now)
4 (6, 7):
5 (7, 9): metamagic knowledge (Empower Spell), Extra Exploit (potent magic)
6 (8, 10): swap (burning hands) for (fireball) as your spell specialization spell
7 (10, 12): Varisian Tattoo (evocation)
8 (11, 13):
9 (12, 14): Dazing Spell, quick study
10 (13, 15):
11 (14, 16): Extra Exploit (metamixing), greater metamagic knowledge
12: (15, 17):
13 (16, 18): any exploit you want, any feat you want

(..................if your DM permits retraining, retrain Extra Exploit (metamixing) for another feat you want and learn metamixing as your 13th-level exploit.
...................Potential feat choices: Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Selective Spell, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell)

14 (17, 19):
15 (18, 20): any exploit you want, Spell Perfection (fireball)
16-20: It doesn't really matter what you do here, since you can change your spells and one of your metamagic feats each day, and your metamagic fireballs no longer require you to spend one of your higher-level spell slots or spells known.

..............................................

At level 6, you can immediately start casting Empowered fireballs that are already at the 10d6 damage cap, and you add 1/2 your arcanist level to damage, for effectively 15d6+3 damage.

At level 7, you no longer need to spend reservoir points to hit the caster level damage cap and can instead use it to boost the DC (or boost the caster level if you *really* need to overcome some tough SR, though with a caster level 3 higher than normal I can't see this coming into play that often).

At level 8, you can prepare Empowered Intensified fireball (18d6+4) in your 4th-level slot and free up a 3rd-level slot for haste or fly or whatever.

At 10th level, your Empowered Intensified fireballs now do 20d6+5 damage. You can prepare Dazing Intensified fireball in a 5th level slot, and you now have quick study in case you need to teleport that day.

At 11th level, you gain greater metamagic knowledge, allowing you to pick between Quicken Spell, Selective Spell, or Persistent Spell for a given day, and now that you have more metamagic feats available it makes sense to pick up metamixing.

At 12th level, you are now at the damage cap for Intensified fireballs even without spending points, and so you can use metamixing without worrying about running out of points to boost your damage.

Instead, you can use metamixing and greater metamagic knowledge to pick between Quickened Intensified, Dazing Empowered, or Persistent Intensified Empowered, and still leave your 6th-level slot open for something like tar pool or summon monster VI.

From now on you can pick exploits however you please. At 13th level, pick up Greater Spell Focus (evocation) [or, if your DM is completely asleep at the wheel, Ascendant Spell], and at 15th level pick up Spell Perfection (fireball).

With Spell Perfection (fireball), you can now cast what are effectively up to 11th-level spells out of a 3rd-level slot. With a lesser Quicken metamagic rod, that becomes 15th-level spells out of a 3rd-level slot up to 3 times per day.


StackOverflow wrote:
Could this just be a case where a Wizard or Sorcerer would be better for the role of an Evoking Wizard?

Nope. Potent Magic is that good.

The whole point of the blockbuster wizard is to both be good at blasting and to have *versatility.* Stacking two bloodlines for +2 damage per die with one elemental damage type is the opposite of that.

And if you dump Charisma like you're supposed to, School Understanding (admixture) is only usable once per day.

And an arcanist has a one-up on the admixture wizard in the versatility department: in addition to being able to switch out his energy damage type on a whim, the arcanist can also change metamagic feats on the fly and doesn't need to guess ahead of time exactly how many fireballs he needs to prepare.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
StackOverflow wrote:
Could this just be a case where a Wizard or Sorcerer would be better for the role of an Evoking Wizard?

Nope. Potent Magic is that good.

The whole point of the blockbuster wizard is to both be good at blasting and to have *versatility.* Stacking two bloodlines for +2 damage per die with one elemental damage type is the opposite of that.

And if you dump Charisma like you're supposed to, School Understanding (admixture) is only usable once per day.

And an arcanist has a one-up on the admixture wizard in the versatility department: in addition to being able to switch out his energy damage type on a whim, the arcanist can also change metamagic feats on the fly and doesn't need to guess ahead of time exactly how many fireballs he needs to prepare.

(emphasis mine) unless you're a wordcaster.


AndIMustMask wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
StackOverflow wrote:
Could this just be a case where a Wizard or Sorcerer would be better for the role of an Evoking Wizard?

Nope. Potent Magic is that good.

The whole point of the blockbuster wizard is to both be good at blasting and to have *versatility.* Stacking two bloodlines for +2 damage per die with one elemental damage type is the opposite of that.

And if you dump Charisma like you're supposed to, School Understanding (admixture) is only usable once per day.

And an arcanist has a one-up on the admixture wizard in the versatility department: in addition to being able to switch out his energy damage type on a whim, the arcanist can also change metamagic feats on the fly and doesn't need to guess ahead of time exactly how many fireballs he needs to prepare.

(emphasis mine) unless you're a wordcaster.

Wow Thelemic_Noun thanks so much for the writeup and sample build! I think I was getting away from the blasting roots by trying to fit in Dimensional Step and School Understanding(Void). While those things are good, they made the overall build weaker.

@AndIMustMask - Wordcasting looks really strong. I think my DM might be a hard sell on a lot of that though.


Hmm won't let me add this to my previous post.

Do you think Wayang Spellhunter is good enough to warrant a feat for additional traits? My DM is requiring that we all take at least one trait from the Campaign setting for S&S. It would mean slowing feat progression though and subsequently MM access, but it seems really worthwhile to have along with magical lineage.


I'll just throw in my two cents here.

I'm not so sure that Cha is inherently a dump stat. It effects the saving throws of their exploits. While at the moment people may not be overly impressed with the exploits that require saving throws, the class is barely a couple months old and some of them I think actually look pretty decent depending on the character.

Who knows what other exploits they'll add that'll bolster exploits, considering how much they're rolling out within the next year.

It also opens up more uses of School Understanding, so in my character's case, that'd be 6 uses of Admixture per day, each use lasting 3 rounds if I expend an arcane point.


I'd also like to point out that touch spells are now not things to immediately be dismissed.

Dimensional Slide allows an Arcanist (or exploiter wizard) to move in, land a touch spell and then Slide away without provoking. It's not used only to get away to safety, it can be used to attack and then get away to safety.


StackOverflow wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
StackOverflow wrote:
Could this just be a case where a Wizard or Sorcerer would be better for the role of an Evoking Wizard?

Nope. Potent Magic is that good.

The whole point of the blockbuster wizard is to both be good at blasting and to have *versatility.* Stacking two bloodlines for +2 damage per die with one elemental damage type is the opposite of that.

And if you dump Charisma like you're supposed to, School Understanding (admixture) is only usable once per day.

And an arcanist has a one-up on the admixture wizard in the versatility department: in addition to being able to switch out his energy damage type on a whim, the arcanist can also change metamagic feats on the fly and doesn't need to guess ahead of time exactly how many fireballs he needs to prepare.

(emphasis mine) unless you're a wordcaster.

Wow Thelemic_Noun thanks so much for the writeup and sample build! I think I was getting away from the blasting roots by trying to fit in Dimensional Step and School Understanding(Void). While those things are good, they made the overall build weaker.

@AndIMustMask - Wordcasting looks really strong. I think my DM might be a hard sell on a lot of that though.

compared to stopping time and creating new universes on a whim, it's hardly strong compared to standard wizard casting.

it IS, however, quite flexible. the main issue is if the player and GM dont both have a little sit-down to go over how wordcasting works and the GM-in-question's stance on certain effects/rule wordings (in particular: being able to double-dip spell focus bonuses by stacking school descriptors, spell lengths when combining extended and instantaneous spells, etc.) then there's gonna be a lot of holdup at the table.

if that talk DOES happen, then you'll find that wordcasting (particularly on the sorcerer or arcanist chassis) is a fluid and fun style, and makes blasting actually viable for once.

(also its the most stable way to be a minion-mancer--the undeath word is component-less for the necromancer crowd, and the servitor spells are all standard actions)


Severian23 wrote:

...

Dimensional Slide allows an Arcanist (or exploiter wizard) to move in, land a touch spell and then Slide away without provoking. It's not used only to get away to safety, it can be used to attack and then get away to safety.

How do you move both in and out in one round with this?

"Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal."


Cap. Darling wrote:
Severian23 wrote:

...

Dimensional Slide allows an Arcanist (or exploiter wizard) to move in, land a touch spell and then Slide away without provoking. It's not used only to get away to safety, it can be used to attack and then get away to safety.

How do you move both in and out in one round with this?

"Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal."

I'd suggest it might work with spring attack, but that's a long feat tree to pick up a touch spell trick. Better off with: Lunging spell (+5 foot reach for touch spells), Aberrant Bloodline (3rd level ability gives you reach for spells. Combine with the above for 15 foot reach by 3rd level, and up to 25 foot reach by 17th level. Those are long arms!), Reach spell metamagic (touch spell becomes close range touch for +1 level), a familiar with some buffs (to go around touching people for you) or even just cast Spectral Hand. My point is... is... is...

Did I even have a point?


StackOverflow wrote:

Hmm won't let me add this to my previous post.

Do you think Wayang Spellhunter is good enough to warrant a feat for additional traits? My DM is requiring that we all take at least one trait from the Campaign setting for S&S. It would mean slowing feat progression though and subsequently MM access, but it seems really worthwhile to have along with magical lineage.

Yeah, Wayang Spellhunter is indeed that good. If I took Extra Traits, I'd pair it with Clever Wordplay (Use Magic Device), which does the same thing as Pragmatic Activator without taking up your magic trait slot.

I'd pick up Extra Traits at 3rd level, and rely on rods for Intensified Spell, since you're not always going to be hitting the damage cap until almost halfway through the game, and sometimes it makes more mathematical sense to reduce their chance of halving all damage by 10% than eking out 7 more points of damage.

In such a case, swap Varisian Tattoo for Intensified Spell, and don't bother picking up Varisian Tattoo, because by the time you get another feat, you'll be at the damage cap and it'll be far more useful to pick up Dazing Spell or Persistent Spell.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Severian23 wrote:

...

Dimensional Slide allows an Arcanist (or exploiter wizard) to move in, land a touch spell and then Slide away without provoking. It's not used only to get away to safety, it can be used to attack and then get away to safety.

How do you move both in and out in one round with this?

"Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal."

Whoops, Late night. Wasn't thinking straight. You're correct, and thus, touch attacks continue to be pretty bad ideas.


So I've received Advanced Class Origins in the mail and have had a chance to look it over.

I added the new exploits to the guide, as well as a writeup on the Twilight Sage, which I will copy-paste here (it's green, by the way):

.

Twilight Sage
While it does smack a little bit of “ew, evil, icky, gross,” this is actually a pretty nice archetype.

You’ll want a slightly higher Charisma than with other archetypes, since you’ll probably be dealing with undead more often and it helps for your command undead spell to let you actually convince ghouls and wights to bugger off and stop attacking the other party members.

Because of your higher Charisma, the Twilight Barrier becomes pretty good for the low levels where it is needed most.

But the awesome things about this archetype are consume life and twilight transfer. You may want to play an elf for their favored class bonus, since it has an immediate payoff with consume life, whereas normal elf arcanists have to wait for Scribe Scroll and Consume Magic Items.

For twilight transfer, make sure you also have the Dimensional Slide exploit to get to the fallen ally immediately. This makes for an excellent panic button for if the cleric goes down. If things are truly desperate, Dimensional Slide to the fallen party member as a move action, activate getaway as a swift action, and use twilight transfer as a standard action, using the captive mastodon your hirelings pump full of drow poison and oil of taggit when you go adventuring to power the healing.

Also, if you make sure to deal nonlethal damage, you can simply use this ability to dispose of unconscious enemies and heal a teammate of 5d8 + your caster level of hit points with each reservoir point spent. They don’t even get a save as they would with a coup de grace, and since most paladins don’t have ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana), they will have no idea what you’re doing and there will be no drama unless your DM decides to create it.

Consume life is rather useful, if a bit front-loaded. At first glance it may scream Evil with a capital “E,” but keep in mind that until level five you can power this ability with common livestock (level 7 if you can find a reliable source of aurochs).
And you can always get at least 1 point out of an elephant even at level 20, though you will go through those elephants pretty damn quick.

For maximum cheese, find as many items as you can that bestow temporary negative levels so long as you are wearing them and keep them in a bag of holding for when you need to fill ‘er up (or borrow something from the paladin or divine caster if they have something to use). This strategy may even allow you to get some use out of “evil only” magic items harvested from BBEGs that you couldn’t otherwise use but are too dangerous or disturbing to sell. Also possible is casting sharesister via UMD or having the cleric place it in a ring of spell knowledge IV (yes, I looked over the item, and it doesn’t actually state that the spell you teach it has to be arcane. However, since sharesister is also a witch spell, your DM might let it fly). Temporary negative levels extend the mileage you can get out of livestock, because they reduce your Hit Dice (and thus character level) for the purpose of the consume life calculation.


For a generalist Occultist is it worth devoting your first two feats to Spell Focus (Conj) and Aug Summoning?

I am going with a fairly aggressive stat build (8, 16, 12, 20, 10, 7 with mods) and Wayang race for darkvision, size bonuses, and the wonderful stats. I am taking Reactionary and Pragmatic Activator to shore up my lack of CHA.

If I do take summoning feats I won't get much in the way exploits for quite some time. I could focus on conj spells like create pit, however, and put the focus feat to some use. I'd rather have Potent Magic, though, I suspect.

If I don't take the summoning feats it opens up taking extra exploits. Several interest me: Potent Magic, Dimensional Slide, Consume Magic Items, Familiar, Quick Study, and Counterspell being the top ones. Maybe the new shifter or Spell Tinker as well.

Note this will be a PFS character so concerns about anything over level 12 are not relevant. This is why I want to be generalist...With random players I cannot guarantee others will be able to support and protect a blockbuster or other specialized caster. This is also why I favor Consume Magic Items as there are "throw away" magic items that the adventure gives you all the time to eat.

As I wont be hitting very high levels I'm not sure much metamagic or metamixing are really ideal. If I'm wrong there, let me know.


Since grease is a conjuration spell, yes, you'll be getting some mileage out of both of those feats from day 1. Other conjuration spells that benefit from a save boost are glitterdust, stinking cloud, web, and a crapton of others.

And since your summons will last an entire fight starting at day one, then yes, giving all of them the advanced template is worth it, especially since the celestial and fiendish creatures also get smite powers.

Since the Augment Summoning gives them a bonus to Con as well as Str, even things like lantern archons benefit, due to increased staying power.

So yes, the feats are worth it, especially since you get summon monster access at the wizard rate rather than the sorcerer rate.


DirkSJ wrote:
I am taking Reactionary and Pragmatic Activator to shore up my lack of CHA.

Technically, Clever Wordplay (which is a social trait) can be used to turn one Charisma skill into an Int skill, so it can be taken instead of pragmatic activator and still have room for a magic trait.

Of course, unless you're taking Additional Traits, the difference is academic since your second trait will be Reactionary.

Lantern Lodge

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
giving all of them the advanced template is worth it

@_@??? How do you give normal summon monsters creatures the advanced template???

I thought only the, Animal Shamans, Druid archetypes have the ability to give their specific animals type summons, via summon nature's ally, the advanced, young and giant templates?

The Augment Summoning feat only gives a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution right? While something like the advanced template, actually gives +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less) and +2 natural armor?

You can combine/get both Augment Summoning and advanced templates on summon monsters spells creatures?! Want to do that! *Drools...

Liberty's Edge

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Severian23 wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Severian23 wrote:

...

Dimensional Slide allows an Arcanist (or exploiter wizard) to move in, land a touch spell and then Slide away without provoking. It's not used only to get away to safety, it can be used to attack and then get away to safety.

How do you move both in and out in one round with this?

"Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal."
Whoops, Late night. Wasn't thinking straight. You're correct, and thus, touch attacks continue to be pretty bad ideas.

Well, actually, it works just fine. Remember, when you cast a touch spell, you can make the melee touch attack at any point during the same turn as a free action... and you can take a free action while taking another action. So you can cast the spell while at least 10ft. from your target, then use your move action to move up to the target, use a free action in the middle of your move to make your touch attack, then finish your movement by Dimension Sliding away. It's actually a valid and very useful tactic.


Don't forget, you can "hold the charge" for a touch spell unless specified otherwise (the only ones I know of that prohibit this are a few utility spells where you touch multiple creatures, which all must be touched in the same round) allowing to cast a touch spell on one round and then use it on another round.

Granted, you can't cast another spell while holding a charge, but you can make an unarmed attack the next round with the touch spell attached, or use items or other things.


Secane wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
giving all of them the advanced template is worth it

@_@??? How do you give normal summon monsters creatures the advanced template???

I thought only the, Animal Shamans, Druid archetypes have the ability to give their specific animals type summons, via summon nature's ally, the advanced, young and giant templates?

The Augment Summoning feat only gives a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution right? While something like the advanced template, actually gives +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less) and +2 natural armor?

You can combine/get both Augment Summoning and advanced templates on summon monsters spells creatures?! Want to do that! *Drools...

It doesn't actually give them the advanced template, but the difference is minimal at lower levels where everything dies so quickly, and at higher levels Evolved Summoned Monster can add more abilities, like that +2 natural armor.


StackOverflow wrote:

Has anyone seen any builds that seem viable for simulating the blockbuster wizard but with using an Arcanist? I have tried different builds using School Savant and I find myself lacking feats as if I had just gone Crossblooded Sorcerer.

I tried one build with a dip in to Crossblooded Sorcerer as well as one that was pure School Savant once I realized the delay to level 7 before getting 3rd level spells seemed harsh.

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

I just built an Arcanist for PFS and I was also going to dip into Sorcerer[Cross-blooded],

but it does seem like a long wait for 3rds.

I also wanted Spell Penetration before I remembered that as a free action--if needed--I can increase my CL.
Used with Potent Magic that is a +4 at will to your CL.
Better than 2 feats!
Go Arcanist!


So euh, which item does the Arcanist use to replenish his spellslots, Pearls of Power or Runestones of Power?

Regardless, these seem like a big candidate to (re)fuel his Arcane Reservoir in a cost efficient and long term way, especially if you're making them yourself (taking 1 day each).

Seems rather amazing to fuel the Occultist's Summon Monster ability which tops at 9 points per casting, so per 9 consumption of one of these items you'll be gaining an effective 9th level slot and at 4500/9000gp a pop this seems rather overpowering since you'll be able to do it daily...

Of note is that the Consume Spells feature only works with Arcanist spell slots and as such you just can't dip a casting class with the soul purpose of draining those slots each day.

I guess we'll have to wait for a FAQ on the issue but i'm quite sure this won't fly in it's anticipated form...

In any event, Spell Perfection is pretty good on an Elven Arcanist (doubles modifiers to 1 spell) and the requirements are easier to meet due to the Metamagic Knowledge exploit saving you feats. (no Spell perfection is a general feat and not metamagic :()


Daedalus wrote:

So euh, which item does the Arcanist use to replenish his spellslots, Pearls of Power or Runestones of Power?

Pearls of power should be able to be used by Arcanists. They should replenish the spell slot. Here is my reasoning.

First forget prepared or spontaneous. Arcanists are a mix of the two.
Arcanists prepare their spells. When casting their spells, they expend a spell slot of that level.
The pearl, once per day, enables the possessor to recall any spell that was prepared and cast that day. That spell is then prepared again, **just as if it had not been cast**.
The spell has been prepared so the pearl can have an effect. The effect of the spell not having been cast is that the spell slot would still be available. So, the spell slot would still be available upon use of the pearl of power.

That is rules as written. I do believe the rules as intended would imply this as well.


Pearl of Power:
This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast that day. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).

Arcanists prepare spells but use a resource, just like spontaneous casters, to actually cast it. The verbiage above (particularly the bit in bold) simply doesn't fit. Also you might have to consider strange things like using a pearl of power to recall a spell after you've used quick study to swap it out.

Runestone of power:
A runestone of power is a small chip of polished stone etched with a rune.

Traditionally, this rune is one of many runes for magic, but more recently created runestones of power often substitute runes from other cultures—the nature of the rune itself has no effect on the runestone’s actual powers. These objects are potent aids to all spellcasters who cast spells spontaneously (bards, inquisitors, oracles, sorcerers, and summoners, but not to spellcasters like clerics who have the option to spontaneously cast certain spells).

Once per day, a spontaneous caster can draw upon a runestone of power to cast a spell—doing so is part of the spellcasting action, and expends that runestone’s power for the day rather than one of the spellcaster’s actual spell slots for the day. An expended runestone of power recharges its capacity after 24 hours. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the runestone.

On the other hand the runestone of power fits nicely.


Funny how two people can use the same sentence as reasoning for two opposite conclusions. How much you want to bet we will never see this particular item explained by any game designer or posted in a faq? All we need is for some writer to slip up and include one item or another on an NPC arcanist in some pathfinder adventure and the precedent will be set.


Well one person sees preparation as separate from casting slots, while the other sees them as the same thing.

This is why they have different opinions. The sentence focuses on preparation, if prep and slot are one, then you regain a slot, if prep and slot are separate, then you don't regain a slot.

The item was created when preparation casters always prepped slots, and the rule was written with that assumption in mind. Now however, that assumption has become false. Design intention no longer applies. Designers thus need to determine how the item should fit into the new prep/slot frameworks.

Edited for clarity.

Liberty's Edge

But the actual wording of the item, unless it gets changed in errata (which I doubt) effectively rules it out for Arcanists. Yes, you could technically have an Arcanist use a Pearl of Power since, technically, they prepare spells. However, it wouldn't actually give them any benefit. It says that "the spell is prepared again", but an Arcanist doesn't get a benefit from preparing the same spell multiple times. It doesn't say anything about refreshing a spell slot, it re-prepares a spell.

It's possible to use this as a cheesy way to gain prepared spells, however, if you can get it past your DM. Say, for example, you use a 3rd level Pearl of Power to double-prepare fireball. Then you use Quick Study to swap out one of your prepared slots from fireball to, let's say lightning bolt. Now, instead of having fireball prepared twice, which doesn't help an Arcanist at all, you have fireball and lightning bolt prepared. This is very clearly an abuse of rules that weren't meant to work that way, however, so it's not likely to fly with any GM that has a spine.

And since there's already an item that grants spontaneous spell slots, and since that's pretty obviously a better fit for the Arcanist anyway (it costs more specifically because a spontaneous slot is worth more than a prepared slot), there isn't likely to be any change to the wording of the Pearl of Power. We might get a clarification specifically saying that the Pearl of Power doesn't work for Arcanists, but I'm willing to bet money that they won't change it so that the Pearl of Power refreshes Arcanist spell slots.


You would think that Runestone of Power showing up in the same book as the Arcanist would tip one off that this is the correct item to use with an Arcanist.

Hint: Spell Lattices are also for Arcanists, as opposed to Pages of Spell Knowledge.

Liberty's Edge

Fearspect wrote:

You would think that Runestone of Power showing up in the same book as the Arcanist would tip one off that this is the correct item to use with an Arcanist.

Hint: Spell Lattices are also for Arcanists, as opposed to Pages of Spell Knowledge.

The Page of Spell Knowledge could still work just fine for Arcanists, however, depending on your GM. The Arcanist section on spellcasting says "Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare." A Page of Spell Knowledge could easily be seen as one of the "other effects" that modify the number of spells known, if your GM is even a little bit liberal with interpretations.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, since they both basically have the same effect.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
You can trade spells into summons on a 1-to-1 basis, i.e. summon monster V in exchange for a 5th-level slot.

Is there something other than actions preventing arcanist from consuming nine level 1 slots to gain 9 arcane reservoir points and cast SMIX with them?

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