Yes, this is a separate thread, but very closely tied to my previous thread discussing a similar issue with an associated reward. Please see the linked thread to confirm that, in that case, Keith Richmond confirmed that the intuitive RAI was correct; even if the RAW technically prevented the reward from working 99% of the time.
Thanks to my party members, I noticed a similar - if less significant - issue with the previous scenario's reward, however.
Scenario 6-4A Reward text wrote:
For the rest of the Adventure Path, after you use the Base's power to recharge cards, you may move or shuffle your deck.
Note that if you choose to 'move' (usually a much more desirable option, whether to continue exploring another location or to set yourself up to assist local allies or to guard locations) then, RAW, you will immediately forfeit the Supporter you just drew during the exploration which occurs in the same step as the Base's aforementioned power.
Curse of the Crimson Throne Storybook, Base and Supporter rules, emphasis added wrote:
You may play supporters from your hand only while you are at the Base. Once displayed next to your character, you may use their powers regardless of your location. If you move from the Base, shuffle any supporters in your hand into the Base. At the end of each scenario, return all supporters to the vault.
And I'm pretty sure that the Scenario 4A reward text does not give you a timing window to display the Supporter before you use it to move. You are not in-between steps (including exploration steps, since you can't 'delay' an "after you X" power - you have to use it as soon as it's triggered), so you can't just play a card arbitrarily, and playing the Supporter is clearly not relevant to a current check or encounter.
TL;DR: If you wish to use the 4A reward power to move from the Base (likely its main purpose), you will be forced to shuffle away the Supporter you drew before doing so, effectively removing the main motivation to elect to explore the Base in the first place.
So the question is; is this intentional? Is this reward written with the expectation that you would spend an exploration at the Base, get to choose only one of its potentially positive options (the one that is almost certainly the least used among any table I've seen played), and give up the Supporter you drew (and shuffle away the 'known' Supporters atop the Base) just to move? Or is the RAI that you can display the Supporter before moving?
Just bringing to the designers' attention that Scenario 6-4B: Rock and Steel has an almost entirely nonfunctional reward.
Scenario 6-4B Reward text wrote:
For the rest of the Adventure Path, when you close a location and move to the Base, you may immediately explore it once.
Note that the Core Rulebook forbids this exploration from occurring... admittedly unless you closed your location, during your turn and outside of your explore step (which few characters are capable of doing, let alone with even any frequency).
Core Rulebook, Page 15 wrote:
If a location is closed during your explore step, you may no longer explore.
Core Rulebook, Page 3, The Golden Rules (Emphasis Added) wrote:
If the storybook, cards, or rules are ever in conflict, the storybook overrides the cards, and the cards override the rules. There is one exception to this: When the rulebook uses the word “never” or “always,” nothing can override it. If powers on cards conflict with one another, locations override support cards, support cards override characters, and characters override other card types.
Despite this hierarchy, if the storybook or a card says that you cannot do something and something else says that you can, comply with the one that tells you that you cannot. For example, if you’re at a location that says you cannot move, and the scenario has an effect that would move your character, you do not move.
The Rules As Written here is very clear; you cannot explore the Base after closing a location, even if you have a power that would seem to let you do so. I have no doubt that the single exploration granted by the reward is meant to let you break that restriction (albeit only for that one exploration), but this is objectively not supported in RAW.
Barring a formal errata; do PACS players (and Box Runners) have implicit or explicit permission to play it as it appears to be intended? I'm uncomfortable using my own judgement for RAI (no matter how clear it is) as justification for overruling the RAW for players in a formal, PACS setting.
Proposed Errata/Rewording Solution:
Scenario 6-4B Reward, Proposed Errata wrote:
For the rest of the Adventure Path, when you close a location and move to the Base, you may immediately explore it once; closing your location does not prevent this exploration.
There's probably a more text-efficient way to describe the same effect, but I just used the accepted template for such an effect, lifted from Amiri (Core).
Quick request that we have errata created for Alase of the Summoner Class Deck in order to clarify how one of the powers on her character card interacts with spells, given the new Recovery rules.
The power in question is as follows...
Alase wrote:
When you play a blessing (☐ or a spell or an ally) on a check by a character at Tonbarse's location, you may recharge it (☐ or shuffle it into your deck) instead of discarding it.
Post-Core spells are not discarded when playing them (or at least, it can raise questions as to whether they were initially played 'on a check by a character at Tonbarse's location' when you get around to attempting to Recovery them, especially if Tonbarse moves around over time), nor is any spell when using the Conversion Guide.
Under certain circumstances, mis-ordering of certain formatting tags will break all formatting on the forum thread for the remainder of the page.
This can occur when {quote} tags are opened before a spoiler, and then closed inside of a spoiler - at least when it happens at the end of the post. For example, the following sentence (if used with square brackets) should impact all further formatting on the page...
"{quote}This will {spoiler}break the forum's formatting.{/quote}{/spoiler}"
Curse of the Crimson Throne, Scenario 3B: The Emperor of Old Korvosa has a pretty interesting set of powers...
CotCT 3B wrote:
At the start of your turn, display Blood Pig Bout next to a random location. At the end of your move step, if you are at Blood Pig Bout's location, encounter it. Then, if you did not defeat or encounter Blood Pig Bout, put the top card of Blood Pig Bout's location faceup on an emperor pile next to the scenario. If only 1 location has cards, banish Blood Pig Bout.
When you encounter a Squealing Pig, draw it. When at the location Pits, you may display the ally Pig or a Squealing Pig next to the location; when the number of those cards is greater than or equal to the number of locations, banish Blood Pig Bout.
When Blood Pig Bout is banished, add the new location Throne Room and shuffle the villain Pilts Swastel and the non-closing henchman Jabbyr into it, then shuffle the emperor pile and reload it into the Throne Room. All Proxy B's are now the non-closing henchman Thug.
To win, defeat and corner Pilts Swastel.
The short of it is that you need to either close almost all locations or find enough Squealing Pigs to trigger the villain to arrive, then you have to corner him. During this time, you can repeatedly fight the Blood Pig Bout for its highly beneficial "when defeated" power or you can let it eat cards out of the location decks for you (for better or worse).
However, the scenario raises 3 questions/observations from me. I'm quietly confident as to the RAW answer for all three, but I think all are worthy of some kind of FAQ, and all three conflict with my strong opinion as to what the RAI may have been.
==================================
OBSERVATION 1: DEFEATING THE BLOOD PIG BOUT BANISHES IT
Every time you defeat the Blood Pig Bout, as per page 10 of the Core Rulebook, it should be banished. At the start of the next turn, it'll simply be drawn from the vault (or wherever else it happens to be if someone's done some trickery and drawn it, like the Hunter Ukuja) and displayed next to a random location... but the important thing is that as soon as you defeat it even once then 'phase 2' of the scenario should begin because it was banished, right?
Core Rulebook, Page 10, emphasis added wrote:
Resolve the Encounter. If the encounter is with a boon, and you succeeded at all of the checks required to acquire it, draw it. Otherwise, banish it. In either case, the encounter is over.
If the encounter is with a bane, and you succeeded at all of the checks required to defeat it, it is defeated; if it is not a villain, banish it and the encounter is over.
This means that the whole 'find Squealing Pigs' goal is almost immediately ignored, though. Furthermore, it seems to defeat the purpose of having two very specific ways of banishing the Blood Pig Bout with the scenario power if all you need to do is just move to it and encounter it.
I think the intention of the scenario is clearly that the Blood Pig Bout is not banished when you encounter and defeat it - only if you fulfill the requirements in the scenario powers themselves.
SUGGESTED AMENDMENT: I recommend the first scenario power be rewritten as follows...
CotCT 3B, rewritten with emphasis wrote:
At the start of your turn, display Blood Pig Bout next to a random location. At the end of your move step, if you are at Blood Pig Bout's location, summon and encounter it. Then, if you did not defeat or encounter a summoned Blood Pig Bout, put the top card of Blood Pig Bout's location faceup on an emperor pile next to the scenario. If only 1 location has cards, banish Blood Pig Bout.
==================================
OBSERVATION 2: AFTER PHASE 2 OF THE SCENARIO BEGINS, THE BLOOD PIG BOUT WILL BE INSTANTLY RE-DISPLAYED
This means after the villain shows up and the Throne Room is built; the Blood Pig Bout comes straight back and continues 'eating' cards from the locations... though the "Emperor Pile" it sends cards to will no longer be referenced for the remainder of the scenario. Worse, if it 'eats' the villain (or even if you defeat the Blood Pig Bout and draw/banish the villain from its power) then you're left with a completely unwinnable scenario. In other words, if the villain is ever the top card of a location and the Blood Pig Bout gets displayed there, you (almost certainly) auto-lose.
Clearly the intent is that the Blood Pig Bout doesn't return once you add in the villain, which also reflects the RPG better (where the villain fight is only after the game itself).
SUGGESTED AMENDMENT: I recommend the first scenario power be rewritten as follows...
CotCT 3B, rewritten with emphasis wrote:
At the start of your turn, if Blood Pig Bout is displayed, display it next to a random location. At the end of your move step, if you are at Blood Pig Bout's location, summon and encounter it. Then, if you did not defeat or encounter a summoned Blood Pig Bout, put the top card of Blood Pig Bout's location faceup on an emperor pile next to the scenario. If only 1 location has cards, banish Blood Pig Bout. If the location Blood Pig Bout is displayed next to is closed, display it next to a random location.
==================================
OBSERVATION 3/QUESTION 1: CAN THE BLOOD PIG BOUT BE DISPLAYED NEXT TO THE BASE?
See this thread for pretty much the exact same question/observation. This is one of multiple scenario powers that really reads like "random locations" shouldn't count the Base (among other things, that would cause Supporters to potentially end up in an actual location deck which is probably unintended). Though as the linked thread suggests, I really can't find any RAW saying that random locations never include the Base - unless you greatly extrapolate the definition of "counting locations" to also include "counting them in order to prepare to roll a die to define a random result".
Greetings to all forumgoers, veteran and newcomer alike. Since I've had a couple of expressions of interest, I'm trying my hand at producing a review of (or perhaps better described as my subjective "Guide-to-playing") each of the new Core Set characters. This 'review' hopes to serve multiple purposes, including...
Provide a high-level overview of their strengths and weaknesses.
Assess where they may perform best - such as specific party sizes or with specific parties.
Assess their 'build options', weighing up the respective merits of their feat and role choices.
Identify some of the ideal boons that these characters might search for, or have unique applications for said characters.
Encourage further discussion over the characters, encourage the sharing of opinions and knowledge.
Of course, everything I write is purely opinion-based. I have a history of other 'reviews' of PACG characters and concepts.
It must be stated that these character reviews are in the context of the Core Set and the Curse of the Crimson Throne card sets, and their respective Adventure Paths. Characters may perform wildly different with or against boons and banes from other sets, but that's not within the scope of these reviews.
======================
Each review will aim to keep the following format, more or less...
CLASS: CHARACTER NAME Difficulty of Play: X/10 (Difficulty of deckbuilding, character risk appetite, complexity of design and quantity of powers to track.) Combat Potential: X/10 (Ability to achieve consistent high combat results and/or general anti-monster capability.) Noncombat Potential: X/10 (Ability to acquire varied boons, take advantage of skill-dependant scenario powers, defeat barriers or close locations.) Exploration Rate: X/10 (How many times they can explore per turn if they try to explore as much as possible.) Survivability: X/10 (General risk of death per scenario, and ability to maintain a hand full of cards even after taking damage.)
(These are highly subjective overviews, with large overlaps (high survivability correlates with lower difficulty of play) and plenty of grey areas (a character might be great at fighting barriers with a specific power but is otherwise limited outside of combat). Furthermore, these values could change greatly with how you play a character, and which Role you pick.)
(I will generally try to list these numbers from the perspective of the pre-Role character card, and the numbers given are loosely in reference to other Core/Curse characters - not historic PACG characters.)
Overview of Character Strengths
(List)
Overview of Character Weaknesses
(List)
Optimal Environment
(Local characters, Adventure Path, party size, specific party members...)
General Writeup:
What does the character do? How do they stack up to comparable characters?
How do their roles differ from each other?
What Advanced Strategies or non-obvious options exist for the character?
Pre-Role Feat Considerations:
This is a longer, more in-depth analysis of a character, pre-Role.
Skills
What skill feats work well for this character; how do the character's strengths and build change with different skill feats? Which are recommended?
Powers
What are the pre-Role power feat options for this character; how do each contribute to enabling this character? Are any unusually good or unusually weak?
Cards
How does each type of card feat contribute to this character's playstyle? What will they generally focus on, to what end?
Role 1 Overview & Builds:
Similar to Pre-Role Feat Considerations, but instead focusing on the strengths of their first Role option and how they can be leveraged, used or built around.
Role 2 Overview & Builds:
Similar to Pre-Role Feat Considerations, but instead focusing on the strengths of their second Role option and how they can be leveraged, used or built around.
Blackjack Build Options:
An assessment of the character's suitability for the Blackjack Role included in Curse of the Crimson Throne. Blackjack can provide some unique benefits or new options to almost every Core and Curse character. The question is; can you leverage Blackjack's unique qualities to build a better character than you could with your own Roles?
Notable Boons:
What kinds of cards best suit this character? Is there any specific type, role or subset of weapons, items, armor or otherwise which are desirable? For example; do they want display-able armors, shields, helmets or a combination thereof?
Ideally, I'll also refer to a handful of boons by name to demonstrate specific synergies or options they provide for such a character.
========================
I will be going through each Core Set character in alphabetic order (as provided in the official Character Sheets), followed by each Curse of the Crimson Throne character in the same fashion.
Which means we'll be starting with the Barbarian Amiri in my next post. I probably won't post any further reviews until I get some feedback. Are these reviews/guides helpful? Are they interesting? Are they too long?
This is a thread to be used when I wish to solo play my PACS characters through reportable scenarios via play-by-post, such as when travelling or when my cards are in storage.
I will be using the online game-running tools provided for Play-By-Post BRing, though I can personally attest that I own all of the Class Decks, Ultimate Add-On Decks, Season PDFs and Adventures featured in these posts, and my ownership of them have all been verified with the appropriate parties.
A small request; but as-written Flenta has some role powers which fall greatly away from their intended use if she's used partially or exclusively with post-Core cards (such as in home Core/Curse play).
Flenta (Fighter CD), Arcane Pretender Role wrote:
□ You automatically succeed at your check to recharge (□ or acquire) an item that has the Magic trait.
Pre-Core, whilst this could be used for a few things, but was primarily intended to be used with Wands or other means of using items that required an Arcane check to recharge. The Fighter Class Deck came with the Necklace of Fireballs and Wand of Treasure Finding items, most assuredly only relevant to Flenta.
With a very small number of exceptions (Mist Horn, Harrow Deck), all post-Core Items that allow for checks to recharge require a proficiency which Flenta doesn't have. Flenta cannot recharge Core or Curse Wands, nor the post-Core Fireball Beads[/b] (which is almost a carbon copy of Necklace of Fireballs, incidentally, but requires proficiency to recharge).
It seems in-line with design intent that Flenta (who's backstory references her reliance on magic items) should be able to utilize these more effectively, which Arcane Item proficiency covers. (I was going to suggest "Arcane Wands" proficiency, originally, until I realized that Fireball Beads wouldn't be counted, despite being an almost-copy of a item intentionally made available to her in the Fighter Class Deck).
(Flenta's other role also provides some benefit to recharging said cards as well, incidentally.)
Simple question, today. Based on a previous ruling that rather startled me.
Fumbus (Fumbler Role) wrote:
□ At the start of your check, you may draw a card. If you do not play it by the end of the check, recharge it and suffer the scourge Poisoned.
Am I correct in reading that you still recharge the card if it's no longer in your hand (if you didn't play it)? The most common reason this would occur is if you drew it, then discarded it to Fumbus' "main" power to add 1d4 to his check.
On page 7, Playing Cards says that when you play a card, "You must do everything the power says when possible." And a bit further on, "Cards often have instructions that you need to follow after you play the card; follow these instructions even if the card is no longer in your hand (even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the vault or in your deck)." So you have to finish executing that power, even if the card is in your deck. If you roll a 1 on that d8, you'll need to fetch the card back out of your deck and discard it.
The mention of the "such as in the vault" suggests that you even recharge the card if you'd banished it during the check.
The Investigator Quinn is a character that, perhaps more than any other, relies on post-Core boon design for a large part of his character to work. This generally comes down to two areas; his methods of using Alchemical Items, and his methods of using weapons. This can cause some measure of conflict with how he can be used in PACS, since - by and large - most players will solely have access to pre-Core boons to build with.
My quick and dirty analysis is in spoilers below for the curious, but you can skip them.
THE GOOD: Quinn & Alchemical:
A recent Conversion Guide update has added a 'recharge check' to all pre-Core Alchemical Items that feature Craft as a check to acquire. I think this is a phenomenal step forward for OP and I wholeheartedly approve of it.
The primary benefit of it is that Alchemical/Liquid Proficiency - either added by the Conversion Guide or already existing on post-Core characters - is meaningful in OP besides just for the precious few examples of Core/Curse card replacements. It also makes some character powers simply work more effectively and intuitively.
In particular, it has been a big step forward to making the Investigator Quinn function better and produce new viable builds for him in PACS; since his numerous powers that reference Alchemical cards become much more viable since he can actually include Alchemical Cards in his deck that he's capable of re-using. (Or at least, he can include more than 1 or 2 of them, depending as to whether you're using Core card-substitution rules or not.)
Ultimate Equipment itself has relatively few boons that are impacted by this in a meaningful way for Quinn, however, as there are few alchemical cards that banish themselves in the set - fewer still which are well-suited to Quinn. Nevertheless, there is enough of the "Alchemical" card type to fuel Quinn's powers, and this can be extended further through some Class/Character Decks (notably, but not exclusively, the Alchemist CD).
===
THE BAD: Quinn & Weapons:
Unfortunately, Quinn's capacity to use finesse weapons, as per what is arguably his defining character power, is greatly stunted in PACS/OP play. In order for a weapon to be desirable to Quinn, they tend to have to follow 3 prerequisites:
They have the Finesse trait.
They allow you to use Acrobatics or Stealth in combat.
They function adequately in combat even if you are not weapon proficient.
Ultimate Equipment provides ample examples of weapons, in almost all levels, that follow the first 2 points. The third, however, is a bit of a hiccup.
Without weapon proficiency, Quinn can productively use the following Ultimate Equipment weapons: Rochin (Weapon 0), Sai (Weapon 0), Double Chicken Saber +1 (Weapon 1), Defending Sansetsukon +1* (Weapon 3), Adamantine Sai +2 (Weapon 4).
(*Becomes better with weapon proficiency, but lack thereof does not affect its combat capability.)
Of those, the most potent in combat is arguably the Double Chicken Saber +1, providing Acrobatics+1d8+1 with some other small advantages (and a distinct disadvantage in that it often forcibly discards itself). An argument can be made for the Adamantine Sai +2 to be better if it works against post-Core veteran monsters*.
(*Which... I'm not sure it does. I don't think typing "+#" into a check to defeat box counts as an "Effect", anymore than the number in there counts as an "Effect". But, as other forum-goers have mentioned, the term "Effect" is not clearly defined in PACG.)
There are other Acrobatics weapons in the set, including the much more powerful Meteor Hammer +3 (Weapon 5), but they greatly penalize the user for being non-weapon proficient, generally rendering them as worse options than any of the weapons I've listed.
There are more Acrobatics and Stealth pre-Core weapons smattered throughout other Class Decks - notably the Monk CD - but there exist no other weapons that surpass those in Ultimate Equipment for characters without Weapon Proficiency (or the Monk trait).
Since (with one small exception, unique to a specific role) Quinn has no power that can support him in combat, he is stuck with a Weapon 1 as (arguably) his best weapon he can access in PACS, with a mere Knowledge+1d8+1 as his combat check even into AD6.
This is not the case in home play, where weapons like the Dancing Dagger, the Keen Spiked Chain, the Limning Starknife, Serithtial and Blackjack cards all provide ample Level 4-6 weapons for him to continue to pick up and use to scale his combat checks up as monsters get harder. These - or weapons comparable to these - are left unavailable to Quinn in PACS.
I could also go on to discuss his interaction with Weapon Poisons in detail; but I'll simply be brief and leave it as an aside to ensure that I cover the possibility.
You need to own the Curse of the Crimson Throne set to get poisons that will consistently and safely work to improve his combat checks; otherwise you're stuck having to make huge (but not insurmountable) Disable checks on top of recharging/reloading a card to use your core Finesse-matters power. Furthermore, with the exception of the mere +2 Embalming Fluid; he's got no consistent way of getting through the all-too common Poison immunity (most constructs, undead, demons as well as several other types of outsider).
===
In short, Quinn is greatly constrained in his weapon options after Tier 1 or 2 in PACS, where no matter his choice of Class/Character deck he will often have a hard time finding any weapon usable to him to improve with as the combat checks get higher and higher. Nor is he capable of taking power feats to improve his combat odds (with one, highly conditional and role-specific feat exception).
I am not suggesting that Quinn is underpowered; least of all just because he's weak in combat towards the end-game. I am not suggesting he needs a buff to be viable, nor that he needs a buff to be fun. I am not denigrating his design philosophy (which is awesome, by the way) or telling people not to play him. (For one thing, if you try hard enough you can find some ways of getting around low combat rolls without resorting to using blessings on every check. For another thing, characters with low combat rolls are perfectly capable of supporting a team.)
However.
Quinn playing through Curse of the Crimson Throne with standard rules has access to a much wider and stronger selection of boons that directly enable his character than one playing PACS does - even with full choice of which Class/Character deck to combine with Ultimate Equipment. In particular, this is true in the weapons department, where Ultimate Equipment (and any other Class Deck) does a poor job of supporting Quinn's core power in the late game, due to the expectation that Acrobatics/Finesse weapon users are also weapon proficient (as has generally been the case pre-Core).
Quinn is one of the relatively few characters that I think is consistently weaker in PACS - with full freedom of Class/Character Deck selection - than he is when playing at home, because his core powers simply don't function as well with pre-Core boons.
THE SUGGESTION:
Would giving an OP-exclusive errata to Quinn to let him spend a power feat on Weapon Proficiency rather than a hand size - thus opening up about 50% of the pre-Core Acrobatics weapons in the game to him (including the most powerful ones) - be... viable?
Would it make his character more interesting to play in Tiers 4+? Would it make building him more fun? Would it make attaining deck upgrades more fun? Would it make him function more similarly to how he functions in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, where he has many more, and many better, weapons to pick from?
In my personal opinion, the answer to all of these questions is "Yes", though I haven't sold myself on the idea of any kind of OP-exclusive errata.
Please note that this isn't so much an open letter to the developers or a request, as it is a hypothetical to see what other players think.
(Also, to be clear, I am not concerned about how Quinn functions in combat prior to Tier 4-6. I have no doubts that there are sufficient Class/Ultimate Deck weapons to enable him in the early game almost as well as he is able to achieve in home play.)
A number of rewards in the Dragon's Demand Sanctioning Document state some variation of the following...
DD-1* Reward wrote:
Each character gets a new level 1 boon of any type, and may choose a bonus deck upgrade.
The term 'New' is specifically defined as...
Core Rulebook, Page 14 (emphasis added) wrote:
Sometimes you will be told to summon a card or to do something with a new card. When this happens, retrieve the card from the vault.
And additionally, the Card Guild Guide (every version I've seen, including v6.0) states...
Card Guild Guide, Page 9 wrote:
If you are rewarded with a card from the vault, instead take a random card of the same type that is not already part of your deck from your Class Deck box.
===========================================
THE ISSUE:
Taking this information together, it reads to me that you're supposed to draw (in the case of 1*) a random boon of a type of your choice from your Class Deck to immediately add to your character deck in addition to the normal Deck Upgrade, and in addition to the Bonus Deck Upgrade, for a potential 3 "Deck Upgrades".
This doesn't seem intentional, for several reasons.
Firstly, every time Sanctioned Dragon's Demand rewards you with a new card (1*, 1A, 1C and 3B) they always reward you with a bonus deck upgrade, which makes it seem like the bonus deck upgrade is supposed to help you pick these new cards, rather than being separate to (also, bouncing between giving players 1 Deck Upgrade and 3, with no-inbetween, feels odd).
Second, the "draw a random boon of a type from your Class Deck" hasn't been used since Season 3. From Season 4 onwards, the only rewards clearly state to add new cards to the acquired cards list, or draw a reward of your choice from your Class Deck (rather than randomly). It probably hasn't been used in the past few Seasons because...
Third (and completely anecdotally), the "Draw randomly from your Class Deck" rewards are seriously unpopular with every table I've BRed and played in on Play By Post. They often give you worthless cards (particularly later in the AP), they're a headache to do with Add-On decks and they're confusingly written (requiring explanation as to how they're handled differently to deck upgrades and how you have to refer to the Card Guild Guide). Adding new cards to the acquired cards list is a standard I've been relieved to see.
Fourthly, when I asked other BRs and Venture Officers for their opinion, the overwhelming response was that they believe the intent was that the 'newly drawn card' actually comes from the Vault (not your Class Deck), and then added to your Acquired Cards. Furthermore, that's how a lot of tables have played it, but I'm not sure that's the RAW.
Am I misunderstanding something, or does the sanctioning document need errata? Or the Card Guild Guide?
Simple and quick question here, having had it turn up in a game I'm running due to the interaction between the following effects...
Curse of the Crimson Throne, Adventure 2 text wrote:
When you play your harrow, you may heal an ally and may remove 1 of your scourges.
Wounded (Scourge) second paragraph wrote:
When you would heal any number of cards, you may remove this scourge instead.
When you play your Harrow, can you use the "heal an ally" bonus to remove your Wounded scourge instead - even if you have no allies in your discards?
My Opinion:
Core Rulebook, Page 11 wrote:
* If you are presented with two or more options, none of which require a check, you may choose any of those options.
You may not choose an impossible option unless you have no other choice.
I would argue that a 'may' effect is an option, and 'heal an ally' is an impossible option to take if there are no allies in discard pile. I don't think the fact that you're going to replace the heal with something else changes the fact that you cannot make that choice.
However... there's quite a few other corner-cases I can think of where this matters (such as involving various Corrupted cards, and methods of ignoring their trait), so I want to be sure I'm correct here.
A post from Brother Tyler a couple of months back really inspired my to try my hand at building a Harrower character from the ground-up, closely tied into the new CotCT Harrow Blessings. Brother Tyler himself has previously played with the Harrower concept in the past, but I've ended up taking a wildly different approach.
The hypothetical environment for this character is (as Brother Tyler raised) that he would exist within a "Harrows Add-On Deck", similar to the pre-existing Ultimate Add-On decks. This Ultimate Deck would carry a colossal 54 blessings - one of each non-Promo Harrow Blessing, all level 1 - and a variety of Harrow and gambling-themed boons, many of which already would exist in Curse of the Crimson Throne.
The character I've ended up with is very much a Work-In-Progress, and I'm looking forward to any feedback. Already the character has undergone massive changes from my initial brainstorming, and I'm still playing around with ideas. It's currently a bit of a Frankenstein monster of different mechanics, so I'm looking to simplify it down whilst keeping a very distinct theme. Nor have I entirely decided on a 'name' for him - more on that below.
With that said, I'm quite happy with how some of it has turned out - do please read through some of my spoilers below to dig through my myriad of other ideas that haven't made it to this initial version of my Harrower Concept.
(Note: the "Harrower" is currently unnamed. Because it's a different class, I'm reluctant to re-use "Erasmus", despite how appropriate it is. I wouldn't be averse to using "Zellara", as far as pre-existing characters go, though.)
DEVELOPMENT PROCESS
=====================
INITIAL DESIGN GOALS:
Fundamentally, I wanted the Harrower that I made to be able to redefine their strengths based on whichever Harrow Suit they were working with, and gain sufficient benefits for playing cards with the Harrow trait that they'd want to use Harrow blessings wherever possible.
The original idea of the character was to reference the Curse of the Crimson Throne "Harrowing" mechanic, where the Harrower would get to play around with a specific Harrow Blessing and build his powers around its suit, changing with every adventure. Additionally, since he'd be building around a set of blessings particularly notable for their diverse, fascinating Hour Powers, it seemed like a great opportunity to build a character designed to manipulate the Hourglass; Hourglass manipulation is a more viable design space now due to the impact Hours can have on each given turn.
Because Harrowers are fundamentally tied into themes of fate and card shuffling; randomness was a highly desirable trait for me to play around with. Could I make his skills shift from adventure to adventure randomly, whilst still making the character playable?
Randomness or player choice limitation. The Harrower shouldn't always play the same way - it should be up to how the Harrow Deck falls.
Reference Harrow and/or Gambling traits.
Must have emphasis on Knowledge and some form of spellcasting, to reflect the RPG.
EARLY ISSUES:
I ran into issue after issue quickly out of the gate. Some of the more notable ones included...
Harrowing, and 'Your Harrow' and 'Your Harrow Suit'
The idea of him performing a Harrowing and referring to his Harrow (in the sense of the CotCT mechanics) had to be greatly adjusted. When played in the Curse AP, he could potentially have multiple Harrows (which is clearly not the intent of the design) and would often become too powerful... but if I balanced him around that, then he'd become too weak in all other APs which don't reference your Harrow at all.
Furthermore, working out how to restrict which Suits he's performing a Harrowing in - if any - is difficult, and referencing "each Adventure" (or equivalent) is clumsy on a character card, which don't tend to have to 'remember' information besides feats between scenarios. Finally, simply having him performing a Harrowing regularly - such as every scenario - seems time consuming and bothersome, particularly in physical play.
On top of all of that, a lot of my 'psuedo-Harrowing' ideas - which usually involved drawing new Harrow blessings in the middle of the game - consistently added overhead to the play experience and were often somehow exploitable, where you could 'farm' blessings to hand off to the party in some cases.
In the end, I kept a lot of the same ideas without tying it into the actual Harrowing mechanic of Curse - instead, I tied it into a series of Cohorts, as you'll eventually see.
Hourglass Manipulation
I really wanted a power where he could switch a blessing in his hand with the current hour - even if he had to give away a blessing of the same or higher level - so that he could custom-tailor Hour options. Failing that, I wanted him to be able to reveal or display a blessing and force the Hour effect to clone whichever blessing he was holding onto. This would mean he'd be unique in wanting to take certain blessings into his deck based on their Hour Powers as much as their actual powers, which seemed a really cool idea!
Unfortunately, there was no satisfying way I could think to implement it that wouldn't also be busted. In PACS, being able to throw away all of your original blessings to draw new ones is a trivial way of farming Blessing Deck Upgrades for the whole party, but in both home play and PACS there's unfortunately a small handful of Hour powers which are far too exploitable.
Most Hour powers are minor effects, all in all - a +1d4 there, a small side-effect here - but a few, if they were re-usable or could be used from your hand, would completely warp the entire character's gameplan. Hours that cause you to encounter new boons, or even draw the Hour (The Real Rabbit Prince) means that any form of cloning or exchanging effect could probably be used to spam boon acquisitions.
Basically, most of my ideas fell into the bucket of "useless 95% of the time, and way too powerful the other 5% of the time". Bad mechanics.
I have kept some more 'traditional' Hourglass manipulation, though, and I anticipate one of his roles will continue to build on that!
Playstyle Diversity/Randomness and the standard Character Deck
I was quite sold on the idea of the Harrower's strengths being determined by his 'Harrow Suit' (or equivalent), and I kept going back-and-forth as to whether the Harrower should have full control over his Suit (either choosing before an adventure, before a scenario, or being able to switch mid-scenario) or whether he should be given them randomly, or whether he can't re-use suits (forcing him to keep varying his playstyle) and so on. All of these options had their own challenges to overcome, and I've got a bunch of ideas that ultimately didn't make it to the working design for now but may still have some life in them yet.
I came to the conclusion that I absolutely wanted the Harrower to have to vary their playstyle one way or another (at least Pre-Role). Either I'd penalise or prevent them from re-using the same suits, or I'd make their suit choice random or semirandom - hopefully without causing undue overhead to the player. Of course, if I want a character who's skills vary, then that means that they'd potentially need a wide variety of proficiencies and card slots (as well as methods of drawing the right cards) in order for 6 different suits' worth of playstyles to be potentially viable in a single character deck.
This was... tricky. I was effectively creating a character much like Erasmus, but lacking control over their strengths and not being able to 'build' around 1-2 Spirits like he could. Whilst I'm still not convinced my solution is great (because it's adding more mechanics and powers to keep track of), I've taken a leaf out of Blackjack/Aric's boots and introduced a Kit solution so that a single character deck can provide a sufficiently varied boon selection.
RESULTING (PRE-ROLE) THEMES & MECHANICS:
Currently, the Harrower makes use of the following 'key' mechanics and themes, though I'm likely going to look to lightening or dropping some of these to strip down, simplify and add elegance to the design.
Varies in playstyle over 6 different harrow suits, each of him changing his specialities and with players not being able to stick with the same suit indefinitely. His varying harrow suit will impact the types of boons he wishes to use and the types of cards he wishes to encounter.
Uses a Kit - allows for more varied boons to be kept in his deck to suit his shifting playstyle.
Themed around the number '6'. 6 Harrow Suits, 6 possible Cohorts, d6s in every skill, starts with 6 blessings, hand size of 6. It should be noted that his Cohort will always bump one of his skills up to a d12, which happens to bring his total die size sum to equal (d)42, which is the standard die size total for PACG characters.
Regardless of his harrow suit, the Harrower should be passably good with Arcane and Knowledge checks, despite his d6s across the board.
The Harrower must always have at least one blessing of each Harrow Suit in his deck, in order to thematically reflect his diversity. However, he has full control of which blessing from each suit he uses.
The Harrower is especially potent with the blessings of his defined Harrow Suit - specifically, in his current iteration, he can re-use them and thus fully leverage their powers.
The Harrower is, ultimately, a supportive character first - more so than Erasmus. The Harrower should trade the consistency of Erasmus' skillset (despite the Harrower's hypothetical versatility) for a stronger variety of methods to assist his party via blessings, character powers and hourglass manipulations.
CHARACTER INSPIRATIONS:
I referred to a lot of characters for inspiration of powers and, in some cases, defining correct templates and wording. In no particular order...
Lem (Core) - A supportive character sub-par in combat but high in diversity. Good reference point for comparing card diversity, combat ability, etc.
Erasmus - A key inspiration for the Cohort mechanics and skillset-shifting capabilities. Also a character closely tied into the "Harrower" concept before Curse even existed, being the listed owner of the original Harrow Deck item.
Varian (Curse) - Some references to the "Harrow Suit" was built from him, as well as being an Arcane caster, with an optional Harrow theme, balancing supportive abilities with Cohorts and Arcane casting.
Sajan (Core) - Blessings-driven playstyle, diverse skillset.
Alahazra (Various) - Known for examination and deck-manipulation, including of the Hourglass. The Oracle concept as a nontraditional supportive caster in PACG is quite well reflected in my Harrower goals, too.
Aric/Blackjack - The "Kit" mechanic and its values.
Hunters/Witches (Various) - The idea of pulling from a roster of Cohorts, each impacting your skills and granting new powers.
CHARACTER
===========
And enough of all of that talk; time to present the actual character as he currently stands. As mentioned, this is a work-in-progress: feedback is greatly appreciated!
POWERS:
After drawing your starting hand, draw 3 additional cards, then set aside 3 cards; these cards are your kit.
On a local Knowledge or Arcane check, or a local check that has a trait matching a displayed Harrow Deck cohort's harrow suit, you may recharge a card to add 1d4 (☐ 1d6).
Tower: Examine the top card (☐ or top 2 cards) of the hourglass, then you may reload or recharge any examined blessing into the hourglass in any order of your choice.
Tower: Exchange a card with a card in your kit.
☐ Tower: Examine the top card of your deck. If you examined any Harrow boons in this way, you may draw any or place any onto a displayed Harrow Deck cohort.
☐ While you reset your hand, you may reveal any number of cards that have the same harrow suit as a displayed Harrow Deck cohort to increase your hand size by the number revealed.
When building your deck, treat Harrow blessings as if they were Level 0 and had the "Owner: Harrower" trait.
Your deck must include at least one Harrow blessing of each suit; if you cannot build a deck after a scenario that includes one Harrow blessing of each suit then you must choose and draw a new Harrow blessing from each suit you do not have in your deck.
COHORT: Each scenario, choose an unmarked cohort and mark it. If there are no unmarked cohorts, choose any marked cohort instead.
The first time you play a scenario of level #, unmark all cohorts before choosing your cohort.
☐ Harrow Deck: Hammers
☐ Harrow Deck: Keys
☐ Harrow Deck: Shields
☐ Harrow Deck: Books
☐ Harrow Deck: Stars
☐ Harrow Deck: Crown
(Note: All Cohorts are double-sided, and feature a pre-Role and post-Role side like Erasmus' Spirit Relatives. Only the pre-Role ones are shown below.)
Powers:
If you do not have a role card, display this card this side up, then you may search your deck for a card that lists Strength in its check to acquire and draw it. While Displayed:
* Your Strength die is 1d12.
* You are proficient with Weapons.
* When you defeat a monster, you may use one of your Tower character powers.
* When you would reload, recharge, shuffle, discard or bury a Suit: Hammers card for its power, you may put it on top of this card and perform the required action with another boon instead.
* At the start of your turn, you may draw any cards on this.
Powers:
If you do not have a role card, display this card this side up, then you may search your deck for a card that lists Dexterity in its check to acquire and draw it. While Displayed:
* Your Dexterity die is 1d12.
* Gain the skill Disable: Dexterity +1.
* When you defeat a barrier, you may use one of your Tower character powers.
* When you would reload, recharge, shuffle, discard or bury a Suit: Keys card for its power, you may put it on top of this card and perform the required action with another boon instead.
* At the start of your turn, you may draw any cards on this.
Powers:
If you do not have a role card, display this card this side up, then you may search your deck for a card that lists Constitution in its check to acquire and draw it. While Displayed:
* Your Constitution die is 1d12.
* You are proficient with Armors.
* When a local character suffers damage, you may recharge a Harrow boon to reduce it by 1. Then you may use one of your Tower character powers.
* When you would reload, recharge, shuffle, discard or bury a Suit: Shields card for its power, you may put it on top of this card and perform the required action with another boon instead.
* At the start of your turn, you may draw any cards on this.
Powers:
If you do not have a role card, display this card this side up, then you may search your deck for a card that lists Intelligence in its check to acquire and draw it. While Displayed:
* Your Intelligence die is 1d12.
* Gain the skill Craft: Intelligence +1.
* When you acquire an Item or a Spell, you may use one of your Tower character powers.
* When you would reload, recharge, shuffle, discard or bury a Suit: Books card for its power, you may put it on top of this card and perform the required action with another boon instead.
* At the start of your turn, you may draw any cards on this.
Powers:
If you do not have a role card, display this card this side up, then you may search your deck for a card that lists Wisdom in its check to acquire and draw it. While Displayed:
* Your Wisdom die is 1d12.
* Gain the skill Divine: Wisdom +1.
* After your exploration, you may recharge a Divine card to use one of your Tower character powers.
* When you would reload, recharge, shuffle, discard or bury a Suit: Stars card for its power, you may put it on top of this card and perform the required action with another boon instead.
* At the start of your turn, you may draw any cards on this.
Powers:
If you do not have a role card, display this card this side up, then you may search your deck for a card that lists Charisma in its check to acquire and draw it. While Displayed:
* Your Charisma die is 1d12.
* When another local character encounters a card, you may give them a card.
* When a local character encounters a story bane, you may use one of your Tower character powers.
* When you would reload, recharge, shuffle, discard or bury a Suit: Crowns card or an ally that lists Diplomacy in its check to acquire for its power, you may put it on top of this card and perform the required action with another boon instead.
* At the start of your turn, you may draw any cards on this.
CHARACTER COMMENTARY:
Harrower wrote:
SKILLS
{See Skills Above.}
Hand Size: 6
Proficiencies:Arcane, Divine, Harrow
(The hand size and skills intentionally play to his theme of the number 6 - representing the 6 perfectly balanced Harrow Suits. I do not anticipate either of his role cards actually increasing his hand size, but his Cohorts and Power Feats may be used to provide other methods of drawing cards to function similarly.)
(With any one Cohort displayed, his overall die size sum becomes 42 - the standard for PACG characters. It's just that, due to his Cohort rules, you are penalised if you try to build a deck solely to take advantage of one Cohort and one skill.)
(Intelligence is his key stat despite being a mere 1d6, but thanks to his Arcane-buffing power I feel he can serve as an Arcane caster with a skill comparable to - if not a bit better than - Lem's spellcasting ability. Still weak... unless he takes the Books cohort, at which point he becomes an even better caster than most Wizards and Sorcerers... but lacking the spell slots to fully leverage it, an he cannot take that same Cohort twice in the same adventure (usually).)
(I didn't really care for adding Perception, to be honest... but Occult Adventures and various Harrow boons (including the actual Harrow Deck item) has closely associated Perception with the Harrow and fortunetelling themes in PACG, so it's kinda mandatory that he has it.)
(He has the Divine proficiency, but no Divine skill unless he takes the right Cohort. That basically means he can afford to keep a Divine-only healing or supportive spell or two in his deck, even though he won't often be in positions to recharge it.)
(The Harrow proficiency, as far as I know, is non-functional (at least when you have Arcane proficiency anyway), but it's thematic.)
POWERS:
After drawing your starting hand, draw 3 additional cards, then set aside 3 cards; these cards are your kit.
(I feel like the Harrower really needs an enlarged deck size to support up to 6 different playstyles simultaneously, and this is the only way I can think to do it. I'm not thrilled with just slapping on a Kit solution, but I think it's the best one - at least in the corner that I've backed myself onto with the whole "He has to keep changing strategies" thing.)
(Keep in mind it's way harder for him to actually exchange cards to/from his Kit, compared to Blackjack and Aric/Red Raven. This is more a way for him to have more boons in his deck to support his gameplan, rather than actually pushing cards back and forth. He can always 'dump' extra/useless boons to his Cohort powers in place of a blessing, anyway.)
On a local Knowledge or Arcane check, or a local check that has a trait matching a displayed Harrow Deck cohort's harrow suit, you may recharge a card to add 1d4 (☐ 1d6).
(First, note that a "trait matching the displayed Harrow Deck cohort's harrow suit" is trying to emulate the "trait matching the adventure's harrow suit" template that turns up on some CotCT characters, like Varian. It means the corresponding skill to the suit, so Keys == Dexterity, Strength == Hammers, etc. I can probably reword this by adding an extra line to the Cohorts and referencing that instead somehow.)
(I'm really not sure it's clear as-written, so it might need redoing. A "trait matching the displayed Harrow Deck cohort's harrow suit" does not mean "Suit: Keys" matching "Suit: Keys", even though it reads like it should.)
(The Knowledge or Arcane thing was added late in development, as a way to ensure he can continue to function as an Arcane caster in the worst-case scenario, no matter how unhelpful the Harrow Suit might be for him. The ability to support any local check of his Harrow Suit is the key element, however; it both gives him supporting options as well as letting him complete powerful checks of his preferred Harrow Suit even if he lacks the skill feats to back it up (he can't have # skill feats on all of his skills at once, after all!).)
Tower: Examine the top card (☐ or top 2 cards) of the hourglass, then you may reload or recharge any examined blessing into the hourglass in any order of your choice.
Tower: Exchange a card with a card in your kit.
☐ Tower: Examine the top card of your deck. If you examined any Harrow boons in this way, you may draw any or place any onto a displayed Harrow Deck cohort.
(Ah, the Tower powers! I kind of invented a shorthand term here mostly as a nod to the RPG Harrower mechanics, but I can remove the clunky "Tower" wording and replace it with something else, I'm sure. Anyway, I like the idea that you can spend power feats to give him more 'payoff' powers or to improve his existing ones... but the trigger that will let you use the powers will keep varying from scenario-to-scenario as you change Cohorts.)
(I should stress that some Cohorts are intended to be better at letting you Tower than others, but they tend to be weaker or harder to build around in other areas. Some balancing probably still needs to be done.)
(His Roles will each offer at least one new option for a Tower power, incidentally.)
☐ While you reset your hand, you may reveal any number of cards that have the same harrow suit as a displayed Harrow Deck cohort to increase your hand size by the number revealed.
(Unlike the "trait matching the Cohort's harrow suit" above, this actually means a card with the "Suit: X" trait, matching what's written on your Cohort. Not sure how to make it clearer.)
(Originally this wasn't gated behind a Power Feat, but implementing it this way makes his already-bloated character card a little simpler before you start slapping feats down. This is a sort of 'psuedo hand-size increase', at least if you choose not to use your selected Harrow Suit blessing during your own turn; this way they don't take up slots in your hand. Gets better after you take your one possible Blessing Card Feat.)
(Remember that, since he can recharge cards so effectively to buff checks, throw cards into his Kit, as well as dump different cards in place of his favored Blessing suit; extra cards in hand is really good for the Harrower.)
(My solution to the clumsy "Perform Harrowing" issues I ran into; simply make sure his Favored Card is the suit of Harrow that matches your Cohort, and force him to include at least one of each Harrow Suit in his deck. What kind of Harrower wouldn't have a wide range of Harrow blessings, anyway? It doesn't even really take away much agency from the player - there's 9 blessing choices for each individual blessing slot, for an incredibly wide variety of possible builds.)
(That possible 7th blessing is a bit of a wildcard. Stack a second blessing of your favourite Harrow Suit, or use a non-Harrow Blessing. Your choice!)
{See Cohort Above.}
(To explain the Cohort selection mechanic; the Harrower can choose his Cohort for each scenario... but cannot re-use one he's picked until he plays a scenario of a level that he's never played before (in practice, this is supposed to emulate "he cannot re-use the same Cohort in a given adventure", though it'll work a bit differently if you play your scenarios/adventures in an unusual order). If you end up playing more than 6 scenarios in a single AD# (which might happen if you're playing a PACS special, or some Promo scenarios, or something) then his Cohort restrictions are lifted entirely as a little reward for playing him so heavily.)
(So I really like the design of the Cohorts, but man they're overdesigned as hell. I hope to allay that by having them all follow a pretty consistent format so once you learn 1 you've mostly learned them all. The format is generally as follows (for the pre-Role Cohorts)...
"Search a relevant Card.
Improve a relevant Die.
Gain a skill or proficiency (in all but 1 case; different for Crowns).
Tower off a specific trigger.
Harrow Suit Blessing replacement power (in all but 1 case; different for Crowns).
Draw cards clause.")
(My goal is that, with the right Cohort, the Harrower is almost as good as a dedicated character of a given role when he's got the right Suit, but having the Arcane skill as a backup and more supportive options than the average other character.
With Hammers, he's like a weaker, more vulnerable Fighter or Barbarian, but with more supportive options and spellcasting (a bit like a Skald).
With Keys, it's the same but like a Rogue.
With Stars, it's the same but like a Cleric.
Shields and Crowns are a bit different, and try to provide more unique mechanics that leverage Towering and teamwork almost exclusively. Books functions much like Keys and Stars, but due to his innate Arcane: Intelligence +3 it effectively turns him into someone who can genuinely compete with someone like Ezren in most facets.)
(The great cost of all of this, though, is he cannot stick to the same build for multiple scenarios in a row. This also means he cannot build a single deck fully dedicated to a single skill, and he must look to taking boons that expand his skillset or encourage diversity in skills - or simply focus on providing support when he doesn't have the right cards on him. I think the balance works out kind of well, at least Pre-Role.)
ROLE PLANS
===========
I have quite a lot of ideas for his Role cards (and I've already got versions-in-testing of his post-Role Cohorts). Some of my ideas are listed (in a haphazard manner) in the spoiler below, but my focus is on improving and finalising his base character first - with the help of any forumgoers who give feedback!
ROLE IDEAS:
ROLE 1 BRAINSTORMING
A 'support' focus. Enhance his abilities to support his allies, and share the benefits of his Harrow Suit more.
Give options for enhancing 'Towering'. Perhaps can use 2 Tower powers instead of one when prompted as an 'ultimate' power?
At least one, if not 2, new Tower powers. Heal a local character a card, perhaps?
Enhance his "+1d4 to local X/Y/Z checks" power in some way. I'm thinking that if he recharges a Harrow boon (maybe a Harrow Blessing?) he gets to add # to another local character's check (not his own!) or something like that? (Comparable to post-role Varian.)
An idea; when a local character would discard one or more cards to damage, you can place one of them on your Cohort instead (effectively saves it from being discarded, plus it will stack your hand full of cards to fuel your supportive abilities - remember his hand size will always be a mere '6').
I envision this Role being more closely associated with the Shields, Stars and Crowns suits, which are the most 'supportive' cohorts by design. How can I tie specific Harrow Suits into a role? Should I?
A power where, when he acquires a blessing from a location, he may reload it into the hourglass? It buys the party turns, potentially - a powerful ability! - whilst also allowing him to manipulate beneficial Hour effects, possibly.
Hourglass manipulation is generally more themed to a supportive role, in my opinion.
ROLE 2 BRAINSTORMING
A 'flexibility/self-empowerment' focus. Enhance his ability to take on any challenge, and push his spellcasting to the limit!
Give him the ability to switch Cohorts mid-scenario! This is not similar to what Erasmus (OA2), Korundo (Hunter CD) and Feiya (Hunter CD) are capable of in some way or form. This would be exceptionally powerful for the Harrower, however, so it would need to be carefully worked out what kind of cost the power would have and how that would interact with the 'checking off Cohorts' option.
An idea; when his location is closed, he may banish his current Cohort and a card of the same suit to check off and draw a new Cohort? Or he can bury all of the cards in his Kit to switch?
Could he take multiple Cohorts? It would push his skills - and his ability to stack Towers - too far, I think... but could there be some other cost to multi-Cohorting? Bleeding cards (burying from deck, losing his Kit), suffering Scourges? Almost like an overcharge or overclock mechanic, where you suffer consequences in order to maximize your skillset - could that even work? Is that even remotely thematic to a Harrower, as opposed to a Goblin or something?
Emphasise Arcane somehow?
I envision this Role being more closely associated with the Hammers, Keys and Books suits, which are the most 'direct' cohorts by design. How can I tie specific Harrow Suits into a role? Should I?
GENERAL ROLE IDEAS
I could have one of the two roles directly reference Harrowing and the Adventure's Harrow Suit. It's perfectly okay for one of two roles to directly reference an AP-specific mechanic, but I'm still not certain I'm a fan.
I can make one of the roles have a power or two themed around the Gambling trait. It's a cool trait that's recently got a few more additions in Curse, and there's been characters that have tried to be themed to it in the past, it's just almost never been particularly worthwhile.
I can also make one of his roles a bit more focused on the Harrow trait in some way. Enhance checks that invoke Harrow, reveal or reload Harrow boons instead of paying other costs, etc.
Regarding the idea of certain roles being good with certain Suits/Cohorts... I could say that you only use the "post-Role" side of the Cohorts if you have the right Role, as opposed to just having a Role card. "If you are a Support-Harrower, display this card this side up". It would help theme them closer, and arguably let me justify making the post-role Cohorts a bit more powerful... but it risks further weakening the Harrower once he's 'used up' his 'best' Cohorts.
BEWARE SCENARIO TEXT SPOILERS FOR THE FINAL SCENARIO OF CURSE OF THE CRIMSON THRONE.
Can the Base be explored in 7A? My initial reading is a hard 'no', due to the wording of 7A as a 'Siege Deck' scenario; but then why is the Base included if it cannot be explored? Is it purely thematic without any mechanical consequences, or is there something I'm missing?
CotCT 7A During This Scenario wrote:
When you would explore, instead encounter the top card of the siege pile as if it were the top card of your location. [...]
The Base wrote:
When you explore, draw the top 3 or # cards of this location. Keep 1 and return the rest in any order, then do 1:
* Draw a card.
* Heal a card.
* Recharge any number of cards.
* Remove 1 of your scourges.
======================================
This raises several specific questions, which if answered can help me understand the intent of the Base in this scenario - as well as help me understand the game more fully.
1. The scenario text says "when you would explore, instead [do X]", so does it even count as an exploration or not if it's clearly replacing one with an 'instead'?
I've always observed that players, including the most veteran of players, treat Defensive Stance/Siege scenarios as if such a replacement is still an 'exploration' (with "during this exploration" powers still working, and players not being able to 'explore' off turn). I don't quite understand why an effect that replaces an exploration with an encounter is still being treated as an exploration, but I can guess that the "as if it were the top card of your location" text is supposed to clarify that it is.
Speaking of things I don't understand, though...
2. The Base text says "When you explore, [do X]", so how does this interact with the scenario power, if at all?
Previous developer statements in these forums, such as on locations like Dark Forest(which has its location power reprinted in the CotCT Fishery), have stated that "when you explore" effects simply replace the exact function of an exploration. For reference...
Fishery wrote:
When you explore, examine the top 2 cards of this location; shuffle 1 into the location and encounter the other.
Core Rulebook wrote:
When you explore, first apply any effects that happen when you explore, then flip over the top card of your current location and encounter it.
That is, when something would cause you to explore, you follow the instructions on the location instead of your normal exploration - you don't, for example, complete the text to encounter one of the top 2 cards, and then take your exploration (which is, admittedly, how it reads to me). However, this 'sort-of' replacement effect is still an 'exploration' - again, power that function "during your exploration" appear to be expected to work.
Honestly, the Fishery and Dark Forest locations always confused me in the first place (among other things, it seems like they're un-explorable if they've only got 1 card in them, since you'd have to examine it, then shuffle it away, and there's no 'other' card to encounter).
Either way, the question is; if your exploration has been replaced with an 'instead' effect, do any of the Base's effects go off? I would think 'no' - you never get to draw a supporter, and you don't get the heal or any other effect, but then I don't understand why the Base is listed.
Or are you supposed to get the heal/etc from the Base, because the Siege Deck rules say to treat the encountered card as if it was encountered at your location - but the Base says to do that after drawing a Supporter from there, so I don't think that's right.
3. What is the distinction between "When you explore, [do X]" and "When you would explore, instead [do X]", if any?
Are you still 'exploring' when you encounter a card during either of these replacement effects? Why or why not?
Welcome back all for yet another Special! Is this the only ACG special that this table hasn't completed yet? I honestly don't have a list of all of the ACG specials so I have no clue! XD
Don't forget we will be running this under the Core Rules; if there's any questions about this, feel free to ask.
Additionally, is there a preference for using Google Hangouts or Discord to facilitate communication among the table?
Hi! More info will be released closer start of Gameday VIII (Start Date: August 26th, 2019). In the meantime, I recommend you dot into the Gameplay and Discussion tabs.
You may also discuss characters in Discussion, if you'd like.
A slightly technical rules question here, and I'd like to hear the community's response to learn whether I'm misunderstanding a fundamental PACG rule, or whether the (presumed) intent of this scenario doesn't match with the rulebook says.
=================
CONTEXT:
CotCT 1B is a scenario that - rather than closing locations - requires the party to find and display a large number of Evidence non-closing henchmen. Evidences are barriers that can be Triggered to make them much easier to defeat and display - giving characters who lack the Wisdom/Intelligence skills to easily defeat them a fighting chance if they can just be examined first.
The scenario gives players the ability to examine the top card of their locations every turn and move them around, in order - I assume - to speed up the ability to dig for Evidences and allow them to be Triggered so that any character has a fighting chance of actually getting these barriers displayed in a timely manner.
Relevant sections/passages...
Scenario 1B: The Ambassador's Secret, Scenario Rule wrote:
At the end of your turn, you may examine the top card of your location, then put that card on top of a location.
Evidence (Story Bane Barrier) Powers wrote:
When examined, encounter this barrier; add 1d8 to your check to defeat.
If defeated, display this barrier next to the scenario.
Core Rulebook, Page 3 wrote:
Rules: The Golden Rules
If the storybook, cards, or rules are ever in conflict, the storybook overrides the cards, and the cards override the rules.
Core Rulebook, Page 13 wrote:
Examine the cards in the order you find them, and put them back in the same order unless instructed otherwise. If anything would cause you to shuffle the stack you are examining, shuffle only after you put back any examined cards that do not leave the stack.
=================
ISSUE:
However, am I correct in the following observation...?
If you use the end-of-turn scenario power and examine an Evidence, then you must - as per the scenario power - place that card back on top of a location of your choice. Especially since the storybook overrides cards, this means that if you Trigger and encounter an Evidence, you'll have to return it to the top of a location after the encounter, regardless as to whether it was defeated (and therefore displayed) or undefeated, correct?
Specifically, this is my understanding of how it plays out...
Situation A: Defeated Evidence
Character ends their turn, examines Evidence with the scenario power.
Character encounters Evidence from it's Triggered power.
Character defeats Evidence and it is displayed next to the scenario.
Character is instructed to "put [that Evidence] on top of a location" from the scenario power. The card is still on the table (as opposed to banished) so it's picked back up and put on top of a location.
Situation B: Undefeated Evidence
Character ends their turn, examines Evidence with the scenario power.
Character encounters Evidence.
Character fails to defeat Evidence. Page 13 of the rulebook clarified that you only shuffle examined cards back after they are returned to the location deck, but you're still in the middle of resolving the scenario power (which changes the placement of examined cards), so you shouldn't put the Evidence back in the location yet. (Not as sure about this one...)
Character is instructed to "put [that Evidence] on top of a location" from the scenario power. The card is picked back up and put on top of a location.
After rules reading and re-reading, I'm not as certain about Situation B, as I can also see a reading that the Evidence is shuffled back during 'resolve the encounter' before you finish the second half of the scenario rule, which in turn would be impossible (you can't pick out a specific card from a shuffled location deck to place atop a location).
I am, however, reasonably confident about Situation A. There doesn't seem to be anything that says that picking up a card displayed next to the scenario and putting it atop a location deck (when you effectively were just instructed to by the Storybook, which overrules cards anyway) is an impossible action. If it's not an impossible action - nor is the effect optional - then it seems like a displayed Evidence would be instantly un-displayed if you triggered it from the scenario power.
Which... seems odd, since I'd have fully expected that the scenario power was supposed to let you Trigger Evidences...
Hi; I received my Core Set + Curse of the Crimson Throne PACG shipment just over 2 weeks ago. Only recently have I managed to fully unpack it and I found no sign of any promo cards that were meant to be included with my Card Game subscription.
Order #: 7848657
Not sure what other information may be needed, but let me know if there's anything else I can do or share.
I don't think there's a megathread just for discussion Conversion issues (and spamming the blog post with these requests seems inappropriate), so I'll just make a thread anytime I want to bring conversion issues up.
BACKGROUND:
The Skull & Shackles AP features Bikendi Otongu as a temporary replacement role card, and the Season 3: Season of Plundered Tombs AP features Spinel Sage as a temporary replacement role card. These cards replace your proficiencies entirely, and both are thematic for spellcasters (and, in fact, allow you to use spellcasting skills in combat like typical Sorcerers can).
However, the RAW is unclear as to whether these temporary roles would have Arcane or Divine proficiencies under various circumstances.
SOURCES:
Transition Guide wrote:
Treat [pre-Core] characters that have the Arcane or Divine skill as proficient with the corresponding trait.
That Transition Guide rule explicitly only applies to "cards from older sets", so it won't magically give Fumbus Arcane Proficiency just because he has the Arcane Skill, for example. As a result, if you're playing any post-Core character and you're given one of these roles, you should lose your Arcane/Divine proficiencies regardless of what skills you have. Core Ezren will find himself unable to retain/recharge spells when becoming Bikendi Otongu or Spinel Sage, for example.
Additionally, while Bikendi Otongu is supposed to give you the Arcane skill, if you're playing a post-Core character that shouldn't modify your proficiencies and thus no longer functions to actually make you a genuine spellcaster like it did pre-Core.
This is probably most relevant for Spinel Sage, as post-Core characters may very well still actively participate in Season 3 playthroughs in Organized Play, due to it offering player rewards that can't be attained in any other way.
CONVERSION REQUEST: Bikendi Otongu and Spinel Sage to be given the Arcane and Divine proficiencies in the Conversion FAQ.
(It might be thematic to give them additional proficiencies - like "Undead" or "Incorporeal" for Bikendi Otongu, or perhaps instead give them the incredibly wide-reaching "Magic" proficiency to reflect their original design scope of being "sufficiently good with everything" to appeal to any party and make the possessed player feel powerful.)
Hi all. First, a short history lesson, so we're all on the same page.
Prior to Core, there was always a lot of confusion going around about Before-You-Act and After-You-Act effects. The big scenario that got a lot of people was something like the following:
A bane says that, before you act, every character at your location must pass a Dexterity 10 check or they take 1d4 damage. You, meanwhile, have a card like Galvanic Chakram +1 that would let you ignore it - lets say everyone at that location had it. What does this mean?
A: Can the encountering player discard the weapon to protect the party?
B: Can the encountering player discard the weapon to protect only himself?
C: Can anyone at that location discard the weapon to protect the party?
D: Can anyone/everyone at that location discard the weapon to protect only themself (or themselves)?
The Ruling was made, and referred to a few times, that the answer was D - only YOU ignore something.
I understand this to still be true, based on the following paragraph in the Core Rulebook Golden Rules...
Core Rulebook, Page 3 (The Golden Rules) wrote:
If you are told to ignore something, the thing you’re ignoring never has any effect on you.
(Note the use of the term 'You'.)
======================
FIRST QUESTION: this means the new "One boon per type per step" rule that covers the party means that, in such a situation, only one player in a group could discard a Galvanic Chakram +1 to avoid a Before Acting power, right? Because if two or more people tried using the same card type (even if they each had their own copy) they'd be violating that rule?
This seems surprisingly harsh, and I'm not really sure the mechanics match up with either flavour or player expectation here. Most new cards that let you ignore BA or AA effects (particularly AA effects) tend to be themed around stunning/poisoning your opponents, and so it seems odd that you can stun them to interrupt some counterattack against yourself, but you cannot prevent them from lashing out at your party members - and your party members themselves may not be able to defend themselves either.
======================
SECOND QUESTION: Effects that let you IGNORE a Before Acting or After Acting power does not prevent the power from working, it just stops it from having any effect on the character ignoring it, right? This means that Giant Fly, for example...
Giant Fly:
Monster 1
Traits
Vermin
Check
Combat
10
Powers
If undefeated, bury a random card from your discards.
After acting, shuffle this monster into a random other location.
Would still be shuffled into another deck, even if you used a Warhammer or Noxious Bomb to ignore its After Acting powers, right? The Golden Rules clarify that Ignoring just stops an effect from working on you - it never says that you prevent the effect from working in general.
It just seems odd - especially because there seems relatively few AA effects that Noxious Bomb (in particular) can even prevent in the first place in the Core Set, due to poison immunities and the specifics about 'ignoring'. Once again, it doesn't seem to match up with player expectation or flavour considerations - that you can't stun a fly to prevent it from flying away, even though your card is telling you to ignore (as in, "not read or consider", to use a phrase that would be synonymous in English) its after-acting powers.
Plus... the INDEX, of all places, seems to actually contradict the Golden Rules. Or at least, it gives a definition of Ignore that's subtly different to any other definition given in the rulebook...
Core Rulebook, Page 31 (Index) wrote:
Ignore: Don’t process, as an effect or trait. Things you ignore never have any effect on you. See The Golden Rules on page 3.
"Don't process, as an effect or trait" is VERY different to "the thing you’re ignoring never has any effect on you" when talking about effects like Giant Fly, and isn't backed up by any other section of the rulebook.
This comes up in other cases too, by the way. Take another example...
Powers
Immune to Mental and Poison. No more than 1 Divine card may be played against this monster.
After acting, a local character buries a blessing.
Can you ignore its After Acting power if you don't have a blessing in hand, but another local character does? If you AND a local character both have a blessing in hand, and you ignore the Accursed Priest's after-acting effect, does that mean the other character at your location has to bury their blessing?
After all, a blessing hasn't been buried yet, so the power hasn't gone off, right? Ignoring it isn't the same as removing that line of text, as per every previous ruling made on the matter. Nor can you let someone else ignore a downside with your own boon.
But situations like these make me deeply question the mechanics of "Ignore", because it seems like several Before Acting and After Acting powers can't ever be meaningfully ignored, making me wonder of putting such utility on cards like Shocking Touch, Warhammer or Noxious Bomb if they didn't even work in the rare case that an After Acting power comes up anyway.
=======================
So, do card type restrictions really greatly limit how parties at one location can defend themselves from team-wide effects?
And can you, or can you not, prevent a Before Acting or After Acting effect if it wasn't specifically having a direct effect on you? See Giant Fly, Accursed Priest.
Hey all. The illustrious EmpTyger brought to my attention that, as-written, this scenario is entirely unwinnable if you have a Rolling Sphere shuffled into the Siege Deck (which doesn't even seem that unlikely a situation to turn up!).
The culprit is this scenario power, which is in effect in addition to the standard Defensive Stance rules. In fact, this is the only real thing setting it apart from any other given "Siege" scenario, besides the specific locations and story banes.
Scenario 3-5B, Scenario Rule wrote:
When you would shuffle a bane into a location deck, shuffle it into the siege deck instead.
Rolling Sphere would always be shuffled back into the Siege Deck, so finishing off the Siege Deck should be entirely impossible, except in the very unusual circumstance that you have a method of forcibly banishing a barrier (basically nonexistent in OP) or a method of forcibly drawing it (almost nonexistent as well, though there's a couple of characters that can do so).
There's also other cards in PACG history which would render this scenario unwinnable - like Mist Horror - but you normally won't find them in the Mummy's Mask box.
Opinion on the scenario rule in question:
To also ask a question and share an opinion, could someone explain to me what the scenario rule is supposed to add to the scenario? There's a very small number of MM banes that are affected, yes - like Burning Child - but none of the Story Banes/Henchmen in the scenario are affected in the slightest, so it's honestly pretty unlikely to ever matter (Defensive Stance rules already cover displayed and undefeated banes being shuffled back in!).
It doesn't appear to have any theme, any relevance, or any importance from a mechanical or story perspective. It's just a line of text to make it technically different to any other Siege scenario (in the smallest, most insignificant way possible, that happens to also render the scenario potentially unwinnable).
On request, I'm writing up my own perspectives on the use of Inquisitor Varril in PFSACG, including how he may interact with legal Class, Character and Add-On Decks, as well as how he may perform in each season of play. This is aimed at intermediate players, but I'm happy to respond to questions or contribute to other discussions in this thread as they come up.
Like with Ezren, I will be posting this review in 4 parts, as follows...
1. Introductory Post & Character/Role Overview (This Post) 2. Class/Character Deck Comparison (Inquisitor vs Hell's Vengeance 2)
3. Ultimate Add-On Deck Comparison
4. Sample Builds
Unlike my last review thread, I'm going to make a conscious decision to keep this one somewhat more brief; but I'm happy to still make a more extensive inspection of the character if requested. In particular, I won't go into as much depth for boon-by-boon assessment, nor will I make as many example builds (I'm aiming to only make 2, not 4). In particular, I'll try not to repeat myself much - if I've said something before, I'll probably just link to the relevant post in the Ezren thread.
Let's cut to the chase. You can skip this first post if you just want to read about Class Deck/Add-On deck suggestions, since this is just describing the strengths and weaknesses of his core character and role cards, and where he normally performs well, agnostic of the specific boons he's using.
Varril, an Overview:
Varill is one of the 3 inquisitors printed in the Inquisitor Class Deck (funny thing, that). All Inquisitors currently featured in PACG usually feature some variation of the following themes, at minimum.
Can gain one or more benefits from defeating monsters (or, in some cases, banes).
The ability to cast Divine Spells.
Proficiency with, and emphasis on carrying, weapons (usually with weapons that feature Dexterity, Finesse or Ranged).
Proficiency with Light Armors.
In function, they usually are kitted to hunt out monsters (and sometimes banes), with a letter emphasis on support than either Clerics or Paladins. In practice, they can be pretty diverse; and perhaps no Inquisitor demonstrates this better than the unusual Varril.
Varril has the following powers...
Inquisitor Varril wrote:
Hand Size 6 ☐ 7
Proficient With: Light Armors | ☐ Weapons
At the start of your explore step, you may recharge a card to allow another character at your location to recharge a random card (☐ or 2 random cards) from her discard pile.
When you attempt any check, you may discard (☐ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill.
After you defeat a bane on your turn, you may discard a card to explore your location.
In many ways, Varril has many of the qualities of a Bard; an emphasis on Diplomacy, a wide array of supporting powers and a great flexibility in his own checks. In particular, his second power is his defining characteristic, which completely redefines how Varril is capable of approaching skill checks - ANY skill check. I'll analyse that power a bit further after I've covered the other aspects of his character, because it's a whole can of worms on its own.
Compared to other inquisitors, Varril has a larger hand size (Yes!), a better Divine skill (Yes!), benefits from taking down all banes (as opposed to just monsters) (Yes!), the capacity to heal teammates over time (Yes!) and... Uh. No innate weapon proficiency, no Melee or Ranged skill, junk Strength/Dex scores and yet carries a duo of Weapon slots?
Ah. That's going to slow him down. But Varril has a lot going for him even at a cursory glance.
Both his first and third powers are decent, but conditional and don't scale too well into the late-game, generally. Why? Because they require an expenditure of cards for an effect that can be easily surpassed by actually using powers on a card. Varril could discard any card to explore when defeating a bane; or he could discard various blessings or allies to explore with benefits. He could recharge a card to heal his allies, but he could also carry some items, allies or spells that offer more consistent healing (like Surgeon, Staff of Minor Healing, Cure, etc).
However, because he has multiple options to expend cards to fuel all three of his powers, Varril can make use of any card that comes into his hand. He's a great character for players to hand cards off to, and he usually won't end up discarding 'junk' boons (like weak weapons or armor) at the end of his turn since he can usually turn them to heals, skill check replacements or explorations effectively. And he should be able to have a good chance to acquire ANY boon he comes across, should he choose to. So I suppose it's time to look at his 'key' skill (his second power) in more detail...
Varill can use his Divine skill for any check he makes at the cost of a card (changing the cost to a recharge should usually be where your first power feat goes); without other cards, that gives him an average result of 7.5 - 11.5 (based on skill feats) for ANY check he wants. When built around with Divine-buffing boons, this can start getting absurd. But there's a catch. There's been a long-running debate on whether he can reveal a weapon and THEN use his power to use his Divine skill with a weapon (very similar to how Inquisitor Zelhara performs), but the current official stance is "No", because you can only use one card or power to define what skill you're using on a check.
I'm of the personal opinion this wasn't initially considered in the design of Varril, because he's in a weapon-oriented deck, with weapon slots and the option for weapon proficiency, and he's representing a weapon-oriented class. I would have thought - like Zelhara - he would be able to wield weapons effectively by substituting a stronger skill, but that is not the current official stance. Despite this hampering his combat ability (especially when you see his very small quantity of spell slots), Varril remains a remarkably powerful and versatile character when you build him to exploit this "Divine your way through everything" power to the greatest possible extremes.
Thanks to this second power, Varril can almost always breeze through just about any check in the game but combat, at least with the right supporting boons. Boons, barriers, closing checks, BYAs, etc; they're all his domain, if he's willing to spend a card to throw his Divine skill around.
Varril isn't significantly better or worse in any particular Base Set (unlike Ezren, where I would recommend sticking to Mummy's Mask), but here's some considerations for each...
Rise of the Runelords: Wisdom is somewhat over-represented in dealing with monster effects and closing effects here.
Skull and Shackles: Having a decent Wisdom, plus the ability to cover noncombat checks well, allows Varril to excel at ship-to-ship combat. Firearms are great for him to acquire due to their combat potential (even in the hands of someone with poor Dexterity or no proficiency) when buried. He also gains small advantages with ship-movement which allows him to move with a friend and still heal them.
Wrath of the Righteous: Whilst the 'self-defeating' barriers (the Temptations) are a match made in heaven for Varril's bane-defeating power, WotR puts a nasty demand for giant combat checks can be tricky for the combat-mediocre Varril try to compete with. That said, Mythic Paths are a match made in heaven by pushing his Divine skill to ludicrous degrees and enabling him to roll 1d20s for it - which he can turn to any check he wants (in particular suiting him to deal with Army checks).
Mummy's Mask: The high quantity of barriers is often a pleasant feature for Varril to see, though there's little else to mention that would impact Varril positively or negatively.
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How you may play him (Pre-Role):
Varril needs to assess how far he can push himself, and you'll find how much you use his first and third powers will be each relative to your party size inversely. In 2 player parties, you won't need many extra explorations with his third power, but you'll help your partner a bunch with your first power. In 6 player parties, the healing isn't much good, but the extra explorations will likely want to be pushed pretty far. Either way, try not to explore without knowing in advance which card you're willing to burn for his 'use Divine for any check' power.
Either way, Varril will often find his niche in a party at dealing with barrier-heavy locations. His incredible skill diversity leaves him perfectly suited to dealing with the unpredictable skills that barriers will often require of you, and in larger parties he'll happy take the advantage to burn cards for more explorations after fighting barriers. Additionally, more recent Seasons of PFSACG have gone out of their way to reward the use of certain niche skills with the henchmen and scenario powers they've introduced; and Varril is well suited to taking advantage of any of those. As a result, players may find him fun to try out in Seasons 3-5, which will give him ample opportunities to flex his flexibility.
As far as feats go, his Hand Size and "or recharge" power feats are usually pretty key one way or another, as they both enable him to push the limits of his defining characteristic - that is, to trade cards in hand for flexibility in all checks. How useful enhancing his healing element is is largely dependent on your party (and which role you're planning to take), and how useful giving him weapon proficiency is will largely depend on your Class/Character/Add-On Decks.
Dumping Skill Feats into Wisdom, then Charisma, is a no-brainer; he'll almost never be forced to use any of his other dice. Maxing his Spell Count to cover combat and leverage his Divine minmaxing also should be a given; anything beyond that is, once again, Class Deck dependent.
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Both of Varril's roles offer new utility options to push his relevance as a supportive Inquisitor - tending more towards the role of a Bard - as well as new ways to utilise Divine cards, new modifiers to improve his exploration power and some power to reference Blessings with the Shelyn trait. They have far more in common with each other, as a result, than MM Ezren's roles, for example.
A large part of the decision between his roles will be determined by who your party members are. How large is your party, what kinds of traits do they invoke, how often are they at your location and how much healing do they need? Let's further examine the strengths and weaknesses of each role.
Knight of the Rose Role:
Inquisitor Varril wrote:
Hand Size 6 ☐ 7 ☐ 8
Proficient With: Light Armors | ☐ Weapons
At the start of your explore step, you may recharge a card to allow another character at your location to recharge a random card (□ or 2 random cards) from her discard pile. (□ Then you may draw a card.)
When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill.
After you defeat a bane on your turn, you may discard a card to explore your location. (□ If the discarded card is a spell, you may recharge it instead.)
□ You may recharge a card that has the Divine trait to add 1d4 (□+1) to a non-combat check by another character at your location.
□ At the end of your (□ or any) turn, if you are the only character at your location, you may move.
□ If the top card of the blessings discard pile has the Shelyn trait, add 1 die to your check.
Knight of the Rose is the somewhat more support-aligned role available to Varril; it gives him a limited Bard-like power for his allies and expands his healing powers meaningfully, whilst giving him the movement power so that he can move himself into positions to support his allies more easily and frequently.
What's the best powers available here, besides the Hand Size (which is a powerful tool for the card-hungry Varril)?
The 'draw a card' modification to Power 1 I consider to be one of the biggest selling points of this role, and if you're planning on taking this role you should probably have used a power feat to increase his healing power's strength beforehand. Instead of costing a card from your hand to enable a heal, it instead leaves you with the same number of cards in hand whilst providing a heal; in fact, it's usually better than just leaving you with the same hand size, since "Recharge a card and draw a new one" lets you cycle out the least useful card in your hand for something that's probably better, whilst also working your recharged spells higher in your deck. A great way to use acquired junk cards!
The movement options of Power 5 vary in effectiveness based on the season and the party. As a scenario goes on, it's less and less likely you'll end up in a location on your own, but it's particularly nice in going to a location with a highly negative start-of-turn or end-of-turn power and being able to skip away from it safely every turn. The further modification going to be seriously dependant on there being the right locations, the right party and the right scenario for it to be of any use at all. I would generally rate it higher in Skull and Shackles and Wrath of the Righteous, due to their tendency towards nasty scenario start and end-of-turn effects.
Other than those, the remaining power feats are all of questionable worth. Power 4 is an acceptable Bard-light power in principle, but it's limited in who it can target, limited in what checks it can support and it's limited in what card you have to recharge to use it in the first place. Worst of all, almost all Divine cards are Spells and Blessings - Blessings can provide way bigger bonuses just by using their own powers, and Spells are invaluable in Varril's hands, in part given his reliance on them for combat. The importance of Spells for Varril is also why the added power feat on Power 3 is bad for the same reason; you shouldn't be dumping Spells to that power.
Finally, his Power 6 is completely worthless in almost all circumstances. Unless you're playing a Season 1 or Season 2 Varril with Zova as a party member (who can selectively search out blessings in the discard pile to put on top post-role), there's virtually no chance you'll ever see a Blessing with the Shelyn trait on the top of the blessings discard pile on Varril's turn specifically. In any other season, there's not even blessings WITH the Shelyn trait to be there in the first place!
This means there's at least 4 power feats which are usually not worth taking, and 2 more power feats (enabling movement) which are really conditional on the season and party (or a given scenario). Not a glowing review, and I will generally advise against this role.
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Incorruptible Role:
This role doesn't reference the Corrupted trait at all! Flavour fail!
Inquisitor Varril wrote:
Hand Size 6 ☐ 7 ☐ 8
Proficient With: Light Armors | ☐ Weapons
At the start of your explore step, you may recharge a card to allow another character at your location to recharge a random card (□ or 2 random cards) from her discard pile.
When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill.
After you defeat a bane on your turn, you may discard a card to explore your location. (□ If the discarded card is a blessing, you may recharge it instead).
□ You may recharge a card that has the Divine trait to add 1d4 (□+1) to your non-combat check.
□ Add 2 (□ 4) to a check by another character at your location (□ or your check) that invokes the Divine trait.
□ Your blessing that has the Shelyn trait adds d12 instead of the normal die.
Incorruptible is my preferred role for Varril, for most purposes. Whilst he lacks the excellent addition to his healing power and generally features somewhat less methods of supporting his allies, it provides him a series of power feats to significantly enhance his role as a Jack-of-all-trades.
The series of power feats for Power 5 are all invaluable - though whether you dig into these before or after you take your post-role Hand Size increase may vary based on your playstyle and party composition. Initially, it primarily helps other party members at your location cast, recharge and acquire spells (even for Wizards - most spells have the Divine trait, and so using them or making checks against them will invoke Divine!) as well as help them acquire Blessings. Once you apply it to Varril, it can potentially help all of his checks, since using his Divine skill thanks to Power 2 will cause him to invoke the Divine trait all the time!
When a full 3 power feats are fed into Power 5, Varril's average Divine skill (a key measure of his performance due to his ability to almost always substitute it in for his checks) can raise from an average of 11.5 (with 4 Wisdom Skill Feats) to an average of 15.5 (with a minimum of 12) - enough to trounce a colossal variety of closing checks, checks to acquire and checks to defeat barriers in almost any set even before he starts playing boons to assist him! Atop of that, his solid +4 massively improves his companions' capabilities with spells, including acquiring them (and blessings). This power will only become better after Core hits, because players can automatically move when their location is closed, enabling him to always stand with the party and fuel their spellcasting and blessing acquiring whilst also maximising his core character power's effectiveness.
In all honesty, his remaining powers are merely 'okay', but that's fine - since between a Hand Size increase and the 3 power feats mentioned before, that should cover all of your power feats for a general season with significant, meaningful improvements seen to Varril's gameplay as a result.
But for the sake of argument... the Power 3 modification is acceptable - if you were going to discard a blessing for an exploration anyway, it will often allow you to recharge one for the same overall outcome. Power 4 is pretty weak for the same reason as his other role's "recharge a divine card" power is weak, but it's conditionally okay. And finally, his Power 6 is far better than his other role's Shelyn-themed power, greatly enhancing how much brunt his blessings can offer if he carries some acceptable Shelyn-traited blessings.
All in all, I feel like playing a straight up "Max Divine" Incorruptible Varril is the most widely effective and useful post-role expenditure of power feats for the character, in almost any season and with almost any class/ultimate deck. Of course, as a result of that, I really don't feel like Varril has much variety in potential builds or choices to make if you're trying to play to the character's strengths, and I'd be happier if more of his power feats were balanced differently to justify more build diversity. Alas.
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As a brief summary of this entire post:
1. Varril is somewhere between an Inquisitor and a Bard; offering support to his allies whilst providing almost unparalleled flexibility in his skill checks - at the cost of having below-average combat checks.
2. Due to the nature of skill check flexibility in PACG; Varril functions excellently in barrier-heavy locations, and can also effectively leverage all sorts of location or scenario powers to his advantage.
3. Varril wants to stack any boons that help him maximise his Divine checks and keep his hand stocked with cards, as well as carry around sufficient boons to make up for his only weakness - combat. He'll usually be maxing out his Spell slots and Wisdom skill feats before anything else.
4. Varril works well in any Season, more or less; though he'll do particularly well in Skull and Shackles whilst he'll have a more difficult time in Wrath of the Righteous.
5. His Knight of the Rose role provides a bit more support utility - in particular solidifying a potential role as a healer.
6. His Incorruptible role provides an incredibly valuable bonus to checks invoking Divine at his location, maximising his critical skill whilst also hugely supporting allied spellcasters (almost 4 skill feats worth of support!), and is my general recommendation for almost any build of Varril.
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(As an aside; I've worked out why putting dot points/lists in spoilers didn't work previously some of the time - it turns out if you put dot points OUTSIDE of spoiler tags, and then try to also put dot points INSIDE of spoiler tags, the spoiler will mess up. I'll try to remember to report that later.)
On request, I'm writing up my own perspectives on the use of Mummy's Mask Ezren in PFSACG, including how he may interact with legal Class, Character and Add-On Decks, as well as how he may perform in each season of play. This is aimed at intermediate players, but I'm happy to respond to questions or contribute to other discussions in this thread as they come up.
Why Ezren?:
Ezren is a character rather close to my heart, and MM Ezren perhaps especially so, given that I'm nearing completion of a play-by-post playthrough of Season 4 - Faction's Favor, run by MorkXII whilst playing an Ezren using Hell's Vengeance 2 and the Ultimate Magic Class deck. Said Ezren is my second PFSACG character, and will certainly be the first to complete a full (non-Goblin) Season. During said campaign, perhaps the biggest highlight to his great efficiency as a character was creating an effectively 'infinite' move-and-exploration combo on threedifferentoccasions, each through different means. Some of these turns went for well over 30 encounters before finally finishing - usually by reaching the end of the scenario.
A combination of about 360 posts with him in Play-by-Post games, plus experience with playing him with the default Mummy's Mask set, have given me a well-rounded understanding of his character, and so I'd like to share how I understand he can be built and utilized in various Organised Play seasons.
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Note that they may be outdated in various ways - I may have acquired new Class Decks that I never reviewed, in particular Ultimate Wilderness, which wasn't out when I made all of those posts/documents.
Sometime in the future, perhaps I'll gather these in a central location - such as a series of Google Docs with an 'Index' doc linking to each. Although if I'm entirely honest, I suspect I will scrap all of my previous reviews and work when the next set of Pathfinder is out with all of its rule-changes.
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But onto the actual review. You can skip this first post if you just want to read about Class Deck/Add-On deck suggestions, since this is just describing the strengths and weaknesses of his core character and role cards, and where he normally performs well, agnostic of the specific boons he's using.
Mummy's Mask Ezren - an Overview:
The third printing of the iconic wizard; all printings of Ezren share the following features in common.
They all have 1d12 Intelligence, 4 Intelligence skill feats, and Arcane: Intelligence +2.
They all features a hand size of 6 by default.
They all feature no card slots for blessings.
In order to make up for the lack of blessings, they all have some kind of means of exploring with a character power.
Mummy's Mask's version of Ezren has 4 power and power-like abilities to note.
MM Ezren wrote:
Hand Size 6 ☐ 7
Proficient With: ☐ Light Armors
On your turn, you may discard a spell (☐ then you may move). Then explore your location.
When you encounter a bane that has the Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Poison trait, ignore its immunities.
You may recharge a spell to add 1 die to your check against a bane that invokes the Acid or Electricity (☐ or Cold, Fire, or Poison) trait.
(When building your deck, you may treat any blessings that do not have the Divine trait as items.)
First, and most famously, MM Ezren is able to discard spells for movement and explorations; which will most often be the feature that may compel a player to pick this version of Ezren for a PFSACG character over other wizards, as you can stack his deck with spells that give him the flexibility and power to overcome monsters, barriers or even help acquire boons and close locations, whilst allowing them to double as exploration outlets. If you are making heavy use of this power, especially in the early tiers, it's recommended that you play Ezren alongside a dedicated healer, as he can be pretty card-hungry.
Ezren's remaining powers are closely tied into Mummy's Mask set themes, in particular their focus on "Elemental Traits Matter".
Second, Ezren may ignore all immunities of banes that have elemental traits, which is a very conditional power without much immediate value - but it does allow him to explore with only one type of attack spell in hand and being far less likely to be stumped by an immune-enemy, particularly if he carries spells with multiple elemental traits like Eruption. Unfortunately, it must be noted that there are no monsters in Rise of the Runelords, Skull and Shackles or Wrath of the Righteous that have these traits (yes, I checked); because giving elemental traits to monsters (as opposed to boons) wasn't done until Mummy's Mask, as part of its theme. As a result, this power is entirely nullified if you're using it outside of Season 3 or 4. (Whether barriers have these traits or not isn't relevant, since they don't have immunities, generally.)
Third, Ezren may recharge a spell to add a die to his check against a bane that invokes an elemental trait*, which is also relatively rare (though not nonexistent) in RotR, S&S or WotR, but moderately common in all tiers of Mummy's Mask play. This can let him turn a spare spell into a quasi-blessing to help with both combat and noncombat checks against some (MM) monsters and barriers. Even so, the limitation of targeting can hurt it, and the cost of recharging a spell is rather high - if you simply have the right spell on you, it's often more useful to simply cast it for its power if you can.
In my personal experience, I probably use this power less than once per scenario, on average, in Season 4 (Mummy's Mask) gameplay.
*It's extremely important to note that a bane invoking a trait is distinct from his checks invoking an elemental trait. Using an Acid spell won't let you add a die with his third character power; you need to be making a check against a bane that has the Acid trait or a bane that would only be dealing Acid damage, for any reason (including a location or scenario power).
Fourth, Ezren has a special deckbuilding rule that allows him to use non-Divine blessings in his deck... unfortunately, there are precious few ways to take advantage of this in PFSACG unless he uses an Ultimate Add-On deck besides Ultimate Magic and Wilderness (the two most spell-heavy Add-On decks). For most MM Ezrens in PFSACG; the deckbuilding rule is entirely irrelevant.
Due to the lack of elemental traits on banes, and the relative rarity of banes that only deal one type of damage in all non-Mummy's Mask sets, MM Ezren will find that two thirds of his character powers have virtually no relevance scenario-to-scenario if he's playing in a non-Mummy's Mask set/season, and so I do not recommend his use outside of Seasons 3 and 4, just as I wouldn't recommend Jirelle outside of S&S.
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How you may play him (Pre-Role):
Like any other Arcane Caster, he's a powerful combatant (if you have a spell to expend), with a general weakness to multi-check monsters and/or summoned banes, which will eat into his supply of methods of combat over time. Everything else that determines his general strengths is largely defined by the spells you give him; whether dealing with barriers, heal, acquire cards, close locations, examine locations, support allies or maintain longer strings of combat checks.
Expanding his 'exploration' power with the added movement is a significant increase to its effectiveness, particularly in larger teams. Having a movement ability (albeit during his turn) basically on tap allows him to exploit advantageous location powers such as Surgery, or avoid negative effects, or move him into position to handle temp-closures or handing off boons. In the later post-role tiers, being able to move with this power is integral to exploit some very long exploration-combos when combined with certain effects that let him repeatedly reset his hand mid-turn, such as Curse of the Sphinx or Fiendish Sphinx, such as what I linked in the original thread.
His "add a die" power may not be worth building upon with a Power feat, depending on your planned build and general strategy; as mentioned previously, I didn't find it used all too much. With that said, it does improve him at locations that convert all damage into an elemental type, including (but not limited to), the Windswept Chasm, the Tarworks and (sort of) Chisisek's Tomb, as they effectively render all monsters and barriers capable of doing damage vulnerable the power. Otherwise, that power will generally always be a useful tool against a number of MM banes, particularly barriers, that he'd be hard-pressed (if not impossible) to defeat without support, such as Toxic Geyser, Poison Spiked Pit Trap and Acid Pool, among others.
In summary, Ezren is a consistent wizard when played with Mummy's Mask, trading out the supporting options and versatility of blessings for a driven capability to deal with most banes that he comes across, and able to turn his spells into numerous benefits if their powers don't suit the situation - dice, explorations and movement. Furthermore, he takes great advantage of Seasons 3 and 4 offering you Traders, so he can trade off even more of his card slots for Spells - his most prized card type.
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Ezren has two very distinct roles; one that emphasizes his combat potential and pushes it as far as it can go, whilst the other expands his versatility and capacity for explorations, whilst offering a higher total hand size. By the time you reach Tier 4, you should have a good idea whether you've found his combat to be lacking or not - that is ultimately likely going to be the deciding factor for your choice.
Arcane Bomber Role:
MM Ezren, Arcane Bomber wrote:
Hand Size 6 ☐ 7
Proficient With: ☐ Light Armors
On your turn, you may discard a spell (☐ then you may move). Then explore your location.
When you encounter a bane that has the Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Poison (☐ or Construct) trait, ignore its immunities.
You may recharge a spell to add 1 die (☐ or 2 dice) to your check against a bane that invokes the Acid or Electricity (☐ or Cold, Fire, or Poison) trait.
☐ Add 1d4 (☐ 1d6) to your check that has the Attack trait.
☐ When you fail a combat check that has the Attack trait, you may bury (☐ or discard) a card to reroll the dice; take the new result.
☐ You may display a spell that has the Attack trait next to your location. While displayed, add 1d6 (☐ 2d6) and the spell's traits to combat checks by characters at this location. At the end of the turn, discard the spell.
Most of the power feats are straightforward, with Power 4 simply adding to your combat checks and Power 5 giving yourself rerolls for good measure.
I would consider the first power feat of Power 5 to be the best one to start with of these, as a full reroll is the equivalent of squaring your odds of failure, which is far more statistically significant than +1d4. The "Bury a card" cost will only ever come up if you initially fail a check; and as it should be an infrequent cost I wouldn't bother spending another feat to drop it down to a discard.
Consider a hypothetical; you've cast Eruption to pass a Combat 25 check. You're rolling 1d12+6+4d6, which gives you 65% odds of passing. +1d4 will bump that to 81%, whilst a reroll will increase your effective odds to about 88%.
Other than the straight combat improvements, the role also allows an Ezren to get around golems standard "immunity to the attack trait" by adding Construct to the list of banes he can pierce the immunities of. Personally, I find it a rare enough situation that I meet Attack-immune enemies that I'd rather just pack a non-mental Evasion effect to get around them, myself, or just take the hit to armor. It can also dramatically improve the effectiveness of his 'recharge a spell to add dice' power, though it too may not come up quite as often as a player would like.
Finally, an Arcane Bomber can expend spells to add 1d6/2d6 to combat checks for a full turn, which you can stack if you continue getting into combat checks and have a sufficient number of Attack spells to do so. This is most likely best served to support his allies, however: +2d6 to combat checks for a turn at a location is nothing to sneeze at, and allows him to backup exploration-heavy (but combat-light) teammates phenomenally, becoming the best friend of any Olenjacks or Lems in the group. It's a costly power, though, best combined with methods of healing.
So this role can expand Ezren's options against element-invoking banes (particularly barriers), it lets him deal with Golems and it lets him support allies at his location. If you were bringing Ezren into Wrath of the Rightoues (for some reason) I would probably advise for this role to maximize his combat checks, but otherwise I don't personally feel it's often necessary; wizards usually are some of the stronger combatants as-is.
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Spell Sage Role:
MM Ezren, Spell Sage wrote:
Hand Size 6 ☐ 7 ☐ 8
Proficient With: ☐ Light Armors
On your turn, you may discard (☐ or recharge) a spell (☐ then you may move). Then explore your location.
When you encounter a bane that has the Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Poison (☐ or Undead) trait, ignore its immunities.
You may recharge a spell to add 1 die to your check against a bane that invokes the Acid or Electricity (☐ or Cold, Fire, or Poison) trait.
☐ You may play 2 spells on a check; only 1 may determine the skill you use for the check.
☐ While you play or when you would banish a spell, you may recharge a spell to gain the Divine skill equal to your Intelligence skill (☐+2).
☐ When you would discard a spell that has the Arcane trait for its power, you may display it instead. At the end of your turn, recharge all such spells (☐ or shuffle them into your deck).
My preferred role for MM Ezren 9 times out of 10, with virtually every power feat greatly enhancing some facet of Ezren, or expanding his options greatly.
Spell Sage offers the largest hand size, giving you the most options/explorations/spells for a given turn, and allows you to use Divine spells. Carrying at least one powerful healing spell is often a good use of a spell slot for Ezren; you can use it for an exploration or a die with his powers, or you can act as an emergency healer when needed. Most importantly, perhaps, is that Spell Sage allows Ezren to recharge spells to (move and) explore, allowing for a truly phenomenal exploration and movement rate, particularly alongside the Season 3/4 Trader mechanic to stack himself with even more spells.
I consider those listed powers to be among the best ways to spend feats. However, beyond all of that, Ezren can also sort-of 'auto-recharge' Arcane spells, as long as they are discarded from his hand (rather than, for example, being displayed). He can ignore the immunities of Undead (not particularly helpful unless you're kitting him out with Mental/Poison spells), and - curiously - gain the ability to doublecast spells on a check, useful for stacking 'supportive' spells (+X to a check) with whatever spell he's using to define his check (such as an Attack spell or Fire Snake).
How useful his 'doublecast' power will be is greatly dependant upon the Class Decks you're using Ezren with.
Either way, Spell Sage raises the efficiency of his 'core' power (explorations), expands what he can fill his spell slots with, and allows him to weave spells together in more creative and complete ways without worrying about running out of cards, and it's rare that I wouldn't advise this role.
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As a brief summary of this entire post:
Like any other caster; Ezren's strengths are largely tuned to his spell selection, but is a strong combatant that can be worn down by damage or sequential combats.
Spells are even more useful to Ezren than most casters, as he can turn them into bonus dice against some banes in Mummy's Mask, and turn them into movements and explorations - arguably his key power.
I would strongly advise against playing Ezren outside of Mummy's Mask.
Be sure to learn the exact definition of a bane invoking a trait if you wish to play as him, and remember it can apply to various noncombat checks.
His Spell Sage role greatly expands his options and strengths.
His Arcane Bomber role, whilst pushing for a combat-focus, is not a role I would usually advise (outside of specific parties or Wrath of the Righteous playthroughs).
For Context:
It came to my attention quite recently that the intent appears to be very strict (more strict than MTG, for example), that a power that is "partially" illegal/unplayable cannot be used, full stop.
For example, if a card says that to "Explore your location, then move", you wouldn't be able to play it if you were at a location that you were not allowed to/able to move from, even though the first instruction is valid.
It's not how I've played in the past, but something I'm more aware of now and have been pretty strict about since discovering.
Powers
Reveal this card when you encounter a monster to ignore any non-villain, non-henchman monster powers that would trigger before you act, then for your combat check, use your Strength or Melee skill +1d8+1. If proficient with weapons, you may add or subtract 4 from your result.
If you would fail this check, and you are proficient with weapons, you may discard this card to ignore the result and evade the bane.
As a result of the aforementioned intended ruling, this weapon cannot ever be used against anything except a "non-henchman, non-villain monster that has a BYA power", correct?
The card only is able to be played when you encounter a monster (which is prior to the check-to-defeat), which is non-relevant for combat. Besides, it has two instructions (one to ignore BYA, one for combat), and the first instruction will always be illegal if it's against a henchman, a villain, or a monster without a BYA power.
Is this accurate and in line with the intent of the card, however? Whilst I recognise a weapon-that-also-negates-BYAs is potent, the rarity of it being even a remotely legal play seems an incredibly harsh limitation (especially for a weapon with the massive drawback of having the Poison trait inherently, and so cannot be used against Constructs, various Outsiders, or Undead).
This is the gameplay thread for the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game version of Assault on Absalom. Here are the players for this table:
Player Name - Character Name
Bigguyinblack - Ukuja
Nathan Davis - Raheli
Abraham Z. - Valeros
EmpTyger - Seoni (WotR)
We're getting the gang back together!
If you're one of these players, please post in this thread or 'dot' it by making and deleting a post, and then (re-)introduce yourselves and/or (re-)discuss your characters on the Discussion thread.
We'll be re-using our existing Google Hangouts thread.
More details about this special will be forthcoming!
This is the gameplay thread for the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game version of Assault on Absalom. Here are the players for this table:
Player Name - Character Name
Bigguyinblack - Lini RotRL
Nathan Davis - Raheli
Abraham Z. - Valeros
EmpTyger - Seoni (WotR)
If you're one of these players, please post in this thread or 'dot' it by making and deleting a post, and then introduce yourselves and/or discuss your characters on the Discussion thread.
I will be asking each of you if you'll be comfortable having a Google Hangouts thread made for this game, but if any of you would prefer not to use Hangouts then strategy discussions can continue to be made on the Discussion thread.
More details about this special will be forthcoming!
The illustrious Hawkmoon once said in this thread...
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with what you've laid out. Personally, I am surprised these kinds of things don't happen more often when cards from different sources are mixed.
In such a quote, he was effectively referring to card and power combinations which kind of... break the game. How do you define "breaking the game"? There's different metrics you can be using, but one pretty inarguable one, in my opinion, would be "This character can consistently finish an entire scenario in a single turn", though I'd also count "This character can consistently close any location in a single turn at no threat to themselves or in an uninterruptible fashion."
And the advent of the Ultimate Add-On decks has greatly increased the number of these 'game-breaking' combinations out there since that quote... at least which are also viable in structured, Organised play, without the help of Loot or pulling cards or characters from multiple Class Decks and Base Sets.
I can think of quite a lot of character power/card interactions that I think are 'too powerful' for a number of reasons, but there are certainly some interactions which I want to test myself to see how far I can really push them, and how they perform in a monitored environment where I can see the game unfold and replay it easily. To this end, I've set up a Play-by-Post forum thread where I can actually do a little solo play-by-post with a character, set up with a particular deck, to see how they perform. The characters are built as per legal PFSACG ("Organized Play") rules, with legal class decks.
Even so, I think the discoveries made are relevant to a wide audience, and so I'm sharing my discoveries here. I've completed my first test, and I'll be describing that in a following post.
Play PACG Play-by-Post? Feel free to use my custom Deck Handler. An index of my other Deck Handlers can be found here.
Welcome to Yewstance's Testing Grounds. Here I will run solo games under PFSACG rules but not for PFSACG characters, purely for the purposes of testing specific character builds which I suspect to be exploitable. By presenting the gameplay turn-by-turn in forum posts, I'm able to capture the gameplay and strategy in far more detail and refer to it more easily than playing physically will allow.
I will usually aim to run actual Organised Play scenarios from Seasons 3 or 4 as a testing ground for these builds, as Mummy's Mask represents a diverse selection of locations, boons and banes which tend to provide a more well-rounded environment to test characters against compared to previous base sets, in my opinion.
I will be using the online game-running tools provided for Play-By-Post GMing, though I can personally attest that I own all of the Class Decks, Ultimate Add-On Decks, Season PDFs and Adventures featured in these posts, and my ownership of them have all been verified with the appropriate parties.
Two unrelated questions, though both shared in that they are rare to mean anything except when very specific cards are played with very specific characters.
Plus a third question that came up in a PbP I'm participating in, if only because I was struck with how incredibly underwhelming a card was.
Question 1: Codex of Conversations
Codex of Conversations wrote:
When you would discard for its power an ally that lists Diplomacy in its check to acquire, reveal this card, then attempt the check to acquire that ally. If you succeed, you may recharge that ally instead of discarding it.
Codex of Conversations is possibly my favorite boon in any of the Ultimate Decks, interestingly enough, but it raise a particular question for me. When you attempt the check to acquire an ally with it, are you making a check against the Item (Codex of Conversations) or against the Ally you're trying to recharge with its power?
On a related note, it says to attempt the check to acquire that ally, but is it treated as a check to actually acquire the ally for the purposes of other card effects?
These could generate different interactions with different powers and cards. For example, you could discard an ally to explore, then reveal the Codex to make a check to acquire it, then use the Bloodblade for your "check to acquire it" and then banish the ally to heal yourself. Also, whilst you are clearly making the 'check to acquire' listed on the ally, since you're not actually acquiring the ally as a result is it counted as a "Diplomacy check to acquire an ally", therefore enabling you to use the Menacing Backsword +1 on that check?
Question 2: Raise Dead (and variants)
Raise Dead wrote:
Discard this card and choose a dead character. That character shuffles 10 of his buried cards at random into his character deck and draws a new hand. That character is no longer dead.
After playing this card, if you do not have the Divine skill, banish it; otherwise, you may succeed at a Divine 14 check to recharge this card instead of discarding it.
Various variants of the spell, like Mythic Hierophant and Breath of Life, almost always work the same way; "shuffle 10 cards in, then draw a new hand. The character is no longer dead". So when, or how 'frequently', does the game check for someone dying, because what if a character has an 11 card hand size, like Tup?
It seems like it would go...
"That character shuffles 10 of his buried cards at random into his character deck and draws a new hand." -> Tup tries to draw 11 cards, and dies. -> "That character is no longer dead." -> Um?
Does that last part become an impossible instruction and is ignored, or does it then take effect, leaving Tup alive with 10 cards, doomed to die on his next hand reset if he can't get an 11th card? I think it's the latter, because he's still dead, even after the hand redraw, until that sentence "That character is no longer dead" occurs.
Question 3: Holy Phylactery
Holy Phylactery wrote:
The difficulty of the check to acquire this card is increased by the scenario's adventure deck number.
During an encounter, bury this card to ignore the Corrupted trait on a boon until the end of that encounter.
After playing this card, you may succeed at a Divine check with a difficulty of 5 plus the scenario's adventure deck number to discard this card instead of burying it.
If a corrupted weapon has a consequence for playing it ("before playing this card, discard the top card of your deck" and the like), you can't actually use the Holy Phylactery to prevent the downside, it seems. You have to play something like a weapon (or whatever defines the skill you're using) prior to playing other cards that effect the check, which is clearly outlined in the rulebook. Everything from Sacrificial Dagger, Rod of the Viper, Stalker's Crossbow, Traitor's Blade and plenty of other Corrupted weapons will never gain a benefit, and an extremely small number will ever get any upside.
However, does this line up with the rules as intended? Whilst there are other advantages to the card - notably you can ignore the corrupted trait on top of the blessing discard pile - it is overall an extremely restrictive card when it no longer helps with utilizing a good majority of Corrupted weapons, which in turn make up a very, very large portion of all Corrupted boons in the game that can be used during an encounter (blessings aside). Especially for a card that has to be discarded (at least) for its effect; it's power level is so low that I feel like it must be a case of the RAW not lining up with the RAI.
Note that almost the only effect I can see being half-useful (ignoring the Corrupted trait on top card of the blessings deck) is still incredibly weak, because the most common consequence that could ever have is a corrupted blessing forcing you to discard a card... when this item is being buried or discarded anyway, that makes using this item weaker than literally doing nothing at all. Kyra can turn a single one of her blessings into non-corrupted ones, but would that ever be worth an item that you're discarding to do so?
So I've listed some questions about PFSACG Hell's Vengeance characters in another thread, but primarily from the perspective of using them as 'substitute' characters from the 4-P1 and 4-P2 scenario rewards. Strictly speaking, I haven't gotten any official answer on those questions, but I have got cartmanbeck/Tyler's thoughts on them, which is as official as I need given that I only play PFSACG via play-by-post.
I've got a couple more questions just about generally using Redemption Cards in PFSACG that I'd like answers on, as they may affect decisions I make with at least one of the characters I'm playing.
Question 1: What can you actually redeem? - (This is actually a repeat of a question from the thread linked above)
So in normal Wrath of the Righteous, you can only redeem a card you actually have in your deck. However, in this blog post, Mike Selinker made a throwaway statement that seems to contradict that.
Not Half Bad Indeed: Hell's Vengeance Makes Its PACG Debut wrote:
[...]such as banishing that Asmodean Disciplines. (You can even banish that book to redeem itself.)
Assuming that wasn't a mistake; have you always been allowed to do that, because it's considered "in your deck" as you're banishing it?
Question 2: Is the card considered redeemed by everyone?
If I redeem a card, then hand it to another player, does it get the Corrupted trait back when used by them? On a related note, if I redeem a card and there's another player using the Hell's Vengeance decks, is it redeemed for them as well (whether they like it or not)? In normal Wrath of the Righteous play, the Redemption card is shared by all players, but what about PFSACG? Here's the only relevant rules I can find.
Pathfinder Society Card Guild Guide pg 9 wrote:
Redeeming Cards
If your character deck includes a redemption card, when you are allowed to redeem a card, choose one of your cards that’s listed on that card and check it off. In any scenario that character plays, cards checked off on that redemption card no longer have the Corrupted trait.
Redemption Card from Hell's Vengeance wrote:
Cards checked off below no longer have the Corrupted trait.
Class Deck Rules token from Hell's Vengeance wrote:
RULES: REDEEMING CARDS
When you are allowed to redeem a card, choose one of your cards that’s listed on a redemption card and check it off on that card. Cards checked off on redemption cards in any scenario you play no longer have the Corrupted trait.
The rules, as written, seem to suggest that yes; a card redeemed by anyone in the party is considered redeemed for all players as long as that player is participating in the scenario. Hence "Cards checked off on redemption cards" and the like. Seems kind of rude that Lazzero trying to redeem his cards will be weakening Linxia in the process. Nevertheless, some confirmation of that would be appreciated.
End Your Turn: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. While you do this, unless a power directed you to end your turn, you may play cards and use powers. Then, reset your hand (see Resetting Your Hand on page 14). When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.
I have always played that you cannot use cards or powers after you have declared the end of your turn, unless they are explicitly called out as being played at the end-of-turn. You call the end of turn, end-of-turn effects (optional or mandatory) apply, then you reset your hand.
However, reading the rulebook closely seems to contradict that assumption of mine. It says that you can play cards and powers there (without specifying that they must state anything particular), and other points of the rulebook make clear that you can play cards and powers at pretty much any point outside of an encounter (you can just only use them to explore during the exploration phase).
Does this mean you can use an end-of-turn effect, then use a card that does not specify a specific timing, between the end-of-turn and your hand reset? For example.
"Kyra discards Camel at the end of her turn to move from the Tarworks to the Brickworks, then uses Cure to heal Valeros at the Brickworks before resetting her hand."
I would have though that would be an illegal play, but the rulebook may have just pointed out to me that I may have been wrong on that this whole time. Is that the case?
I'd just like to preface this by saying I'm pretty sure I understand the Rules as Intended here, but I'm a little dubious on the wording.
Meligaster's Egositist Role allows him to modify one of his powers thusly:
Meligaster, Egotist wrote:
"On your first ([ ] or any) check on any turn to acquire an ally, add 2; you may instead do this if that check is to defeat a monster."
I'm pretty sure "Or any" is supposed to allow Meligaster to use that power on any of his checks to acquire an ally or defeat a monster, but I don't understand how it works grammatically.
"On your first check on..."
-> Becomes? ->
"On your any check on..." (nonsense grammar)
"On any check on..."
"On your first, or any, check on..."
"On your first, or any check on..."
I feel like most of those interpretations actually come to a different conclusion. That it either applies to his first check, or it applies to any check. As in, "Any" check, not "Your any check", which makes no sense, but any check by any player.
Can Meligaster really add 2 to any check, on any turn (which implicitly means by any character) against every monster and ally? I'm pretty certain that's not the intent, but that's how it reads to me by most grammatical rules, unless I'm overlooking something.
P.S. This role card also has a spelling mistake. "When you would recharge, discard, or bury an ally from yor hand for its power..."
Welcome to Osirion, khazkhaz, AAUGHWHY, Abraham Z., and GM Andrew! An ancient land of treasures and mysteries await!
Cards Against Gnomanity doesn't start until July 9, but there are a few things to set up in advance so that we're able to start gameplay right away on the 9th.
This thread can be used for any discussion about the game or anything else you want, while the Gameplay tab is generally reserved for in-character/gameplay posts. Out-of-character discussion in the gameplay tab should be posted in [ooc] tags wherever possible.
This thread is great for discussing characters, strategy, notifying the table if you may be absent for a time, discussing who gets the right loot cards or requesting specific card upgrades.
Catastrophe struck the world 10,000 years ago, and mighty Osirion was one of the first great nations to rise from the ashes. For centuries its pharaohs oversaw a golden age of expansion and innovation while crushing rivals such as the Tekritanin League and the golem armies of the Jistka Imperium. Eventually, though, the kingdom began to stagnate, its leaders unable to match the splendid accomplishments of their forebears. Following millennia of decline and foreign occupation, Osirion is once again autonomous and prospers under the Ruby Prince Khemet III.
Hoping to uncover forgotten secrets that his kingdom might employ while encouraging foreign traffic into the increasingly prosperous land, the Ruby Prince opened Osirion to foreign explorers approximately a decade ago. Those hoping to plunder tombs and make their fortune are subject to Osirian customs agents who reclaim the most historically sensitive finds and collect a modest tax on other goods. Yet even this is hardly enough to discourage treasure-hunters—not when one could uncover gold, lost magic, or even a piece of one of the legendary Shory flying cities from a lost age.
Among the region’s most influential archaeological operations is the Pathfinder Society, an international league of explorers and adventurers dedicated to discovering and chronicling the world’s mysteries. You recently completed your training as a Pathfinder agent in Absalom and set out for Osirion, dreaming of the ancient secrets buried beneath the sands and stone. Before you embark overland, though, it’s critical that you meet with Venture-Captain Norden Balentiir, who coordinates Pathfinder activity throughout Osirion and is an invaluable sage of which sites remain unexplored and unspoiled by common looters.
As your ship approaches Sothis, you can take in its beauty firsthand. Smooth-sided structures of tawny stone stand tall and proud, many capped with sparkling domes and adorned with spectacular columns. Famous temples tower over the skyline, including the Necropolis of the Faithful, overseen by Pharasma’s priests. It’s a stark reminder that even though Osirion condones treasure-hunting, the Lady of Graves demands that all respect the dead. Perhaps greatest of all Sothis’s monuments is the Black Dome, a colossal, translucent scarab beetle that stands at the city’s center.
History says that this was once Ulunat, a destructive behemoth laid low by the city’s founder and now inhabited by its elite. There’s little time for sightseeing here, though—once you meet with Norden Balentiir, the archaeological wealth of all Osirion will be yours to explore. What you uncover might not just change your fortunes; it could change the world!
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This is the thread where gameplay will occur.
For the time being, I recommend 'dotting' this thread, achieved by making a post here in gameplay and then deleting it afterwards. That will ensure that this forum will show up in the Campaigns tab of your profile, and be much easier to reach in the future.
This is the second of two posts I'm making, each covering specific questions I had when interpreting Class Deck characters.
The general questions being asked here are as follows:
1. What defines "Playing a boon", or "While playing a boon"? Are there ever traits "on a boon" that aren't listed by default?
2. Can you ever retroactively count or choose to use parts of a power in an effect?
First, I'll quote the relevant rulebook text for the appropriate references. Added in spoiler text.
Rulebook Passages:
MM Rulebook, Page 11 wrote:
Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or to use one skill instead of another. (These cards generally say things like “For your combat check, use your Strength or Melee skill,” or “Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.”) You may play only 1 such card or use only 1 such power to determine which skill you’re using. A few cards that can be used on checks don’t use any of your skills; they instead specify the exact dice you need to roll or the result of your die roll.
The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check. For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you are using your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee traits are added to the check. When you’re playing a card to determine the skill you’re using, that card’s traits are also added to the check; for example, revealing the weapon Heavy Pick for your combat check adds the Pick, Melee, Piercing, and Basic traits to the check. (This isn’t the same as giving you a skill; for example, playing the spell Immolate adds the Arcane trait to your check, but it does not give you the Arcane skill.) If a power adds an additional skill or die to a check, that skill or die is not added as a trait to the check. For example, a card that adds your Strength die to your combat check does not add the Strength trait to your check
Alright, so moving on to specific questions/examples. These are way more simple than the questions in my last post.
Timing and trait questions? Emil has the power "When you play a boon that has the Poison ([ ] or Corrupted) trait, you may ignore that trait and immunities to it."
If you're up against a card that's immune to Poison, you can use this power to play a boon with the Poison trait, such as the Thousand Stings Whip... but it doesn't help you play a card that can ADD the poison trait to your check, because you're not playing a boon with the poison trait, right? If you recharge the Venomous Hand Crossbow +1 or Venomous Dagger +2, you're adding the Poison trait to the check, right? Or are you actually adding the poison trait to the boon, and so you can use that against poison-immune enemies?
If you can't recharge these cards to late add poison, then I wonder why these cards are even in the class deck, because only Emil can use them effectively and Emil doesn't actually have any power that benefits adding the Poison trait to his check - only using boons WITH the poison trait.
Can you reveal a Venomous weapon, then add the Poison trait through another means that includes a Poison-traited boon (like the Venom items in the deck), then retroactively use the Venomous Weapon's additional power? I'm pretty confident you can't, because it's 2 different steps of the check, but I'm really trying to find reasons why these weapons are here.
On a related note; if you can ignore the Corrupted trait when you play a boon with it... that doesn't prevent Corrupted downsides that occur BEFORE playing it, right? Or are they treated as 'simultaneous'? Take Traitor's Blade, that says "If this card has the Corrupted trait, a random character at your location must discard a card or you may not play this card". Can Emil not prevent that, because you'd need to do that to play it, and therefore before you get to use Emil's power?
I'm pretty sure you're not playing a boon with the Poison trait if you "add the Poison trait" via an additional power. It doesn't say "add the Poison trait to your check", but nor does it say "this card gains the Poison trait" like, lets say, Channel Corruption's template suggests. I would read it as adding the Poison trait to your check, which is entirely unhelpful for Emil, weirdly. These are tied closely into questions about Mogmurch as well, though, so switching to the Goblin's Burn deck...
Mogmurch has the power "While you play or would banish a spell that has the Fire trait, gain the skill Arcane equal to your Craft skill."
Once again, if you're playing a spell that can ADD the fire trait, the spell itself doesn't have that trait, correct? So "Ice and Fire" cannot be used with Mogmurch's temporary Arcane skill, correct? If I've misunderstood the "add the X trait" the whole time, then that would explain a great deal, but the rulebook doesn't seem to clarify this (that I can tell).
Pretty much tied into the same question for Emil. I also had a question written up about "Sphere of Fire", but it was sufficiently answered by the rulebook (what isn't explained is why Sphere of Fire has the line of text "This counts as playing a spell", when that's implicit anyway. Using a power on a displayed card is playing that card).
I will, however, leave with one last, purely hypothetical question.
Can a power have an effect that may or may not be changed in a later step? If I have a weapon that says "reveal this to use your Strength or Melee skill. If you have the Arcane skill, add an additional 1d12", then can I play an item during the check that says "gain the Arcane Skill equal to your Intelligence skill" and get an extra 1d12 to my check? This is a component of some other questions I've had, but won't be bringing them up now.
As my previous post; I'd be greatly appreciative of anyone who can provide clarifications; whether I'm misreading or misunderstanding, or whether there's an issue with the powers themselves.
I've been umm-ing and err-ing on making this post for a while, but it's increasingly hard to ignore the fact that there's a few specific elements about PACG that I don't understand (or that I'm uncertain that I understand, and it bothers me). Fortunately, I can narrow down exact examples.
This is the first of two posts, each covering specific questions I had when interpreting Class Deck characters.
The fundamental question being asked here are as follows:
What defines a power on a card, in the most precise wording possible?
First, I'll quote the relevant rulebook texts for the appropriate references. Added in spoiler text.
Rulebook Passages:
MM Rulebook, Page 8 wrote:
Playing a card means using a power on that card by performing an action with that card that is specified by the card itself (see Boons, page 23). Choosing to activate a power on a displayed card also counts as playing it. If a power says using it counts as playing a boon, it counts as playing a card.
MM Rulebook, Page 8 wrote:
If you play a card in such a way that it leaves your hand, that action can trigger only 1 power.
MM Rulebook, Page 23 wrote:
If a paragraph on a boon doesn’t require you to perform an action with that boon to cause an effect, that paragraph is not a power; do what it says at the appropriate time. For example, if a paragraph says “After you play this card, if you have the Divine skill, recharge it instead of discarding it,” and you have the Divine skill, you must recharge the card after you play it. If a card says “If proficient with light armors, you may recharge this card when you reset your hand,” and you are proficient with light armors, then when you reset your hand, you may recharge that card. When you are required to do something with the card as part of the effect (rather than to cause an effect), that does not count as playing it. So in either of the previous examples, recharging the card does not count as playing it.
Alright, so moving on to specific questions/examples.
What is a Power? Zelhara has the power "[..,], when a power happens if a boon has the Corrupted trait, you may ignore that power.".
Powers only include when you do something with a card (recharge, display, etc) in order to make an effect occur. The rulebook (of which I only summarized some parts above) is clear that additional consequences of playing a card (like the recharge check of a spell) is NOT a power if it's covered in a separate paragraph, and playing a card can only trigger one power at a time (again clarified in the rulebook).
But if that's the case, then doesn't that mean this power doesn't apply to a huge number of the boons in HV2? Honestly, I feel a bit confused about what is and isn't a power, but I think if a card says "Discard this to do this; if this has the Corrupted trait, bury it instead" then I think the "bury it instead" is a power, because it's in the same paragraph. But if the card has a separate paragraph that says "After playing this card, if this card has the corrupted trait, bury it" it's NOT a power and Zelhara won't prevent that.
But maybe even the first assumption I made ("If it's in the same paragraph, it's a power") is not quite accurate, because of the other rulebook portion saying "If you play a card in such a way that it leaves your hand, that action can trigger only 1 power". That means that Zelhara saying that she can ignore a power, that means she'd have to ignore the entire paragraph, therefore undoing the entire use. But if that's the case, then Zelhara has a dead power (actually, another dead power, as the rulebook also says that she can't play a weapon then use her power to change the skill she's using with it).
Basically, what corrupted downsides can she ignore or not ignore? Can she prevent the "added cost" of playing Traitor's Blade (it's own paragraph of text, and on a card that appears to be themed for her due to being a knife)? Can she undo 'replacement' downsides like on the Sacrificial Dagger? Ghoul Hide? Discord Bottle? A huge portion of the Corrupted downsides are listed in their own paragraph and occur when a card is played... which is the same principle of the Recharge check on spells, and explicitly stated in the rulebook as "Not being a power".
But there's another element. What about other situation about 'powers' that occur due to "a boon having the corrupted trait", but the power isn't on the boon itself?
What about WotR Seelah's "When you acquire a boon that has the Corrupted trait, bury it" power? That totally seems to fit the bill of "A power that happens if a boon has the Corrupted Trait", can Zelhara prevent THAT?
I'm pretty certain that a lot of my conclusions are not in lines with Rules as Intended. So is this a case that the power's intent does not line up with the rules, or am I just horribly misunderstanding fundamental rules about what defines a "power"? If it's the latter, I'd greatly appreciate being corrected with clarifications.
Linxia (plus role cards) has a power that says "When you play a boon that has the Corrupted or Shield (or Heavy Armor) for its power, you may...".
So I'm confident that "While you reset your hand, you may recharge this card when you reset your hand." is not a power. I'm not 100% confident on WHY, but presumably because you're not "Do X to do Y". You're not recharging it to do anything, simply recharging it. But I'm a bit more vague on other powers; so lets take Tower Shield as an example.
When you display Tower Shield, are you using a power? It has an effect that's "While displayed", but that effect doesn't immediately occur (unless you're taking damage at the start of your turn, I guess). So it's not "Display to do X", it's just "Display", much like recharging armor at the end of your turn.
The rulebook says that CHOOSING to use a power on a displayed card counts as playing it. When it says "At the end of any turn, you may recharge this card.", is that a power? Or does it again fall in line with the above "You're not doing Y as a result". What about "If you do not, succeed at a Strength of Melee 6 check or discard this card." Is any part of this last paragraph a power? Why or why not?
What about the Ultimate Combat "Display" armors? Can I display Dwarven Plate? Does that count as playing it? What about if you Display it in response to taking combat damage? I know that using its powers after its displayed certainly count, of course.
I've got a couple more questions, but I'll leave them for a separate post, because they're not essentially the same (though they may be related) to the nature of "What is a Power".
Once again, I'd be greatly appreciative of anyone who can provide clarifications; whether I'm misreading or misunderstanding, or whether there's an issue with the powers themselves.
Strap yourselves in. There's a whole lot of questions coming, but I've tried to format it in a legible fashion.
For context...
#4-P1 Murder in the Marketplace; Scenario Reward wrote:
Each player may, for each future scenario, choose to exchange his character that completed this scenario with Lazzero from Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1. Lazzero gets the same number of skill, power, and card feats as the exchanged character, as well as all other applicable rewards that character has earned (including any valid deck upgrades and a role card if appropriate). Build Lazzero’s deck from the Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1 box using the Hierarchy from the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide. The exchanged character receives any rewards and upgrades from the scenario. Report the character as Unlocked Cleric Lazzero.
Special scenarios #4-P1 and #4-P2 have a total of 6 attainable rewards; including the one written above, as well as one for each other Hell's Vengeance Character Deck 1 and 2 character.
However, the scenario reward text told me a fraction of what I felt I needed to know about using such a reward, and I was left with a great deal of questions. Through very careful reading of the Card Guild Guide, plus the incredible help of the Play-by-Post table I'm currently on (in particular our Box Runner MorkXII), I've gotten answers to most, but not all, of my questions.
To make sure my presumed or discovered answers are all accurate (and to answer those I don't have an answer to), I'm re-asking all of my questions here so that the intent of this reward in Organised Play can be defined. I've covered each question individually in a spoiler (though the outcomes to some questions are reliant on other ones), and inside each question is another spoiler containing what I assume the answer to be, either RAW or RAI.
Question #1: Card Upgrades:
The reward states that your temporary character gains "any valid deck upgrades" from your exchanged character. Does this mean you may take every card upgrade you have ever earned on your original character (Spell B, Item 1, Weapon 1, Weapon 2, etc) and use any number of them in the process of building your temporary character's deck?
Does this include card upgrades that were later overwritten (such as a Weapon 1 that was replaced with a Weapon 2) or removed from your deck (such as a Banished card)?
On a related note, is an Organised Play character allowed to take a card upgrade they cannot legally use, so that their temporary character may use it? For example, if you are playing as RotR Sajan (no weapons, spells or armor, by default), can you pick up Weapon, Spell and Armor Card Upgrades - even though you have to throw them out to build a legal deck - so that you may use such upgrades when you switch to your temporary character?
My answer:
Spoiler:
There does not appear to be any precedent for "deleting" a Card Upgrade after it's listed, so even if a card is replaced or banished the original Card Upgrade may be used for your temporary character. I would argue this could allow some classes (such as Alchemists) to exploit this more than others, especially anyone that has effects like "Banish this card when you use it, then draw a new one from the box".
Page 10 of the Card Guild Guide never says that you must take a Card Upgrade that can legally be in your deck, and in fact the 'deckbuilding' and 'rebuilding' stage follows it, so it follows logically tome that you may take a Card Upgrade solely for the purpose of recording it (therefore allowing the use of it on a Hell's Vengeance temporary character) and dumping it.
I certainly hope so, because otherwise some characters can never use this character switch reward viably.
Question #2: Banishing Cards:
Is there any penalty whatsoever for banishing a card that started in your deck for a temporary character? Are you disallowed from using that Card Upgrade in the future for a temporary character, somehow?
My answer:
Spoiler:
There doesn't seem to be anything suggesting that it is possible to 'remove' a Card Upgrade or in any way strike it off. Nor are you trading cards from your class deck in order to build the deck of your temporary character. As a result, there seems to be no penalty whatsoever for banishing cards with your temporary character.
This seems highly exploitable, especially since both HV1 and HV2 have several highly powerful cards that are at least partially balanced by forcing you to banish them (including spells that can allow you to close locations and cards that let you restock the Blessings deck, as well as some particularly powerful blessings). The Asmodean Disciplines also comes to mind, though it's certainly a weaker example of how banishing being a highly temporary hindrance seems to significantly alter the value of cards in the Hell's Vengeance decks.
Personally, I'd like to see this somehow addressed/changed with a rules clarification somewhere.
Question #3: Redemption Cards & Redeeming:
When you take a temporary character, presumably you now have access to their Redemption Card that is included with the Hell's Vengeance character decks. But this raises several more questions.
Does your temporary character 'remember' redeemed cards? If I switch my character for HV1 Linxia for several scenarios, do Redeemed cards remain checked off for her each time? That is, if I redeem Corrupted Helm, is it redeemed when I next unpack her class deck to use her from my same original OP character? What about if I play Lazzero, and also use the HV1 Redempion card? Are cards I redeemed as Linxia also redeemed for him, or does he have his own effective copy of the Redemption card?
What if your own character (pre-exchange) is from Hell's Vengeance 1? Do your swapped characters use your own Redemption Card, or their own 'copies'? This could be a good or bad thing either way; if I was playing Kyra I'd probably be trying to redeem as many cards as possible - That may help in many cases but it would also, for example, interfere with how good Linxia is.
What if your main character has a HV1 Redemption card and you swap into a HV2 character? Does your HV2 character still have your HV1 Redemption card considered in-effect (there are some boons which are on both Redemption cards, I believe)?
In short, are there any circumstances where cards redeemed for one character is also considered redeemed for another. And are cards redeemed for a character you've 'traded' to use temporary ever remembered as redeemed, either for future uses of that character or future trades to that Class Deck, or even for your own Redemption Card?
My answer:
Spoiler:
I've... got no real clue. I would hesitantly suggest that "all characters from b]a single Class Deck[/b] that are used for the scenario undertaken by a single Organized Play character share a Redemption card". So whether its your character or a swapped in HV1 character, you get the HV1 Redemption card and all are affected by the Redemptions listed on it. If you're playing a different OP character, you have a new Redemption card for swapping in HV1/HV2 characters.
I would additionally suggest, based on basically nothing: "Only 1 Redemption Card based on your Class Deck is ever in effect at one time in OP", so if you use a HV2 character you would ignore Redemptions listed on the HV1 Redemption Card in all circumstances.
Question #3b: The Asmodean Disciplines confusion:
Some of my questions above were triggered from considering The Asmodean Disciples item. What does "Redeeming" do for temporary characters? Is there any downside whatsoever to Banishing it when your character deck is temporary anyway? Is any of this exploitable? Do temporary characters ever have access to pre-existing redemptions, or is the Redemption Card considered non-functional?
However, this kind of overlooked a side-question. In the blog post that announced HV1, Mike Selinker specifically says:
Not Half Bad Indeed: Hell's Vengeance Makes Its PACG Debut wrote:
[...]such as banishing that Asmodean Disciplines. (You can even banish that book to redeem itself.)
...Which confuses me. I thought you could only redeem a card that was actively in your deck, according to an official rule (via the WotR FAQ)? Can The Asmodean Disciplines really redeem itself, when it's no longer a legal Redemption target once it's banished? Or is there some rule precedent that you're "Picking the target" before you pay the cost of the power, so it's okay?
My answer:
Spoiler:
Once again, no clue. Given Mike said it's okay, I guess I have to assume "You pick the card you're redeeming, THEN banish The Asmodean Disciplines".
Question #4: Changing Feats/Cards:
If you repeatedly switch into a HV1 character, you can rebuild them from the ground up each scenario, right? Build their deck as per your card upgrades, choose their feats and even roles based on whatever would serve you best?
My answer:
Spoiler:
The reward does say, in brief, to get a new character then give it all of the appropriate feats and build their deck. That seems to suggest they are hugely flexible on a scenario-to-scenario basis, since there doesn't appear to be anything stopping you from re-building their feats and decks entirely. In combination with effectively ignoring the long-term cost of Banishing cards, this reward is beginning to sound more and more exploitable.
Question #5: Add-On Decks:
Last but not least, can you actually use any Ultimate Add-On deck when switching into one of these Hell's Vengeance characters? If so, can you change your selected deck every time you build them, much like suggested by Question #4 above?
If you can't pick any Add-On deck, can you use the one from your original character, then?
My answer:
Spoiler:
MorkXII read it as you could include Add-On decks, or at least inferred that intent, but the reward text doesn't strictly say that. The wording is "build [character's] deck from the Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck [#] box"... but then, this may be a conflict between RAI and RAW here, since this reward was written before the release of Ultimate Add-On decks.
As written, my reading would be you cannot use Ultimate Add-On Decks at all with these swapped characters.
Posting under an alias used for Organised Play to demonstrate my discovery/issue:
TL;DR: A great number of profile pictures do not appear whatsoever if any filter is selected, including pictures that meet the filter criteria exactly.
Full Description:
I have recently discovered that the Profile Picture/Avatar Selection, available for accounts and aliases, do not appear to show the full selection of images when any of the filters (Gender, Race, Class, Iconic, etc) are used.
Obviously, that's the point; filters are meant to prevent anything not matching the filter from appearing. The issue is that the filters appear to not be implemented correctly, or perhaps pull from an older version of the profile picture database.
For example. When I originally made this alias, I looked for pictures of Estra. I'd searched originally for "Female, Human, Iconics", since there was no listing of "Spiritualist" as a class, and no text search capability. I found nothing that I liked, so I instead searched for "Human", and found nothing that I liked, then I instead searched for "Female" and eventually found an avatar image that was 'close enough', though it actually depicted the Outsider Munasukaru.
However, when you now go to the profile selection, selecting no filters, and sorting by date, you can find several images of Estra (such as the one I've now selected as my avatar) simply by going page to page and looking closely. Furthermore, they're even listed (if you hover over them) with her name, as well as "Gender: Female" and "Race: Human" and even marks her as an Iconic. But these images of her do not appear if you use any single one of these filters, or a combination thereof.
Simply by looking at the first couple of pages, then selecting any filter, I also find that the entire selection of images seems entirely different, rather than merely inappropriate pictures filtered out. As I suggested, I suspect (without knowing anything about the issue) that using any filter is causing the search to return much older profile pictures and ignore any that have been added in more recent times (weeks, months, years?).
I would consider this a usability hurdle, especially with the burgeoning community on the PACG forums of organised Play-by-Post sessions, of which aliases should generally endeavor to reflect a player's selected character.
Simple question, as I could not find a clear answer in the Card Guild Guide: If you add an Ultimate Add-On Deck to an Organised Play Character, are you later able to remove that Add-On Deck (and/or switch it with another) down the line?
In my case, I have an Organised Play character and I'm holding out to see what some of the later Add-On decks include (particularly Ultimate Wilderness) rather than add either of the currently released ones. Is that entirely necessary, or could I add, say, the Ultimate Magic Add-On deck now, and remove it down the line if I chose?
I would assume, if I did switch to a new add-on deck, I'd have to remove all of my old add-on deck boons between scenarios, replacing them as per the Hierarchy as if they had all been banished.
Been reading through the mass of class decks I recently purchased, and I've got a small number of questions that I'd like answers to. Only 2 of them are significant, though, so I'll lead with them.
1. From the Barbarian Class Deck is "Improvised Monster":
Improvised Monster (Weapon 4) wrote:
For your combat check, recharge this card and banish a monster from your hand to use your Strength skill plus the discarded monster's highest difficulty to defeat.
[...]
Do you banish or discard the monster for the effect? Banish makes more sense to me, but the power is inconsistent. I saw a FAQ for a similar text issue on the Occult Adventures 1 deck (for a power on one of Estra's roles) but no FAQ for the Barbarian class deck, nor any reference on the forums to clarify that it should mean the "banished monster's highest difficulty", or whether the cost is the type.
2. For reference (emphasis added)...
Vic Wertz from the thread "SKILL REPLACEMENT POWERS AND CHECK TYPES" wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
To be clear, does this intent also apply to powers which replace X with Y (as in, you require an X check, you have a power that replaces X with Y as opposed to the more common "use your Y skill" wording)?
Assume the things I said apply to *all* powers that let you use one skill when the card you're attempting the check against specified another, be it a character power, a weapon, an Attack spell, an item like Mattock, whatever. The only exception we're looking at right now is Zelhara's power, "On your check that invokes the Chain, Finesse, or Knife trait, you may use Divine instead of the listed skill."
skizzerz wrote:
Are you taking suggestions for how to reword rules/powers or would that not be helpful?
No need for that, but what would be helpful is if you can think of any such powers that (like Zelhara's) are not actually useful if they can't be combined with another [weapon, Attack spell, item like Mattock, whatever], or (again like Zelhara's) don't seem to belong in the Determine Which Skill You’re Using action.
Hate to ask, but is there clarification that Mother Myrtle's power can be used with Attack spells here? For reference, her relevant power:
Mother Myrtle wrote:
You may use your Wisdom skill for your Arcane (□ or Divine) check.
So far, it has been confirmed by official sources on that forum thread that Zelhara's and Rivani's power, at absolute minimum, certainly DO allow for their powers to replace a skill already determined by a card. There's a very, very strong suggestion that Valeros' Weapon Master role also allows for that (if only because otherwise the whole power is moot).
However, Vic's specific words were that the rule that you can't replace a skill defined by another card or power should be assumed to apply to ALL powers, and I can't honestly say that Mother Myrtle's power is USELESS without it (she can still ACQUIRE spells fine, for example), but it certainly makes her effectively unable to fight. She'll have no weapons, d4 Strength and Dexterity, a bunch of spells and no Arcane or Divine skill to use a combat spell in. Admittedly, her deck DOES have offensive potions/items - is she 100% reliant on those?
I'd assume she could use combat spells, because I'd think that would be the point of her power. But the last official word I found on the topic (largely speaking, Vic from December 2017) explicitly says to assume that's not how it works until told otherwise. Currently, there's 1 character where this clear "only 1 card may determine your skill" rule seems to apply (Varril) and at least 3, possibly at least 4, characters where it doesn't apply (Zelhara, Rivani, probably Valeros, possibly Myrtle), so I'm trying to be very cautious with my power assessments right now. I really lack a cohesive understanding of the full consequences of these powers now that the whole Varril can of worms has opened up, given that none of them have been reworded yet (as far as I can tell), and as a result I'm veering away from playing any of them.
TL;DR: Could an official source answer whether or not Mother Myrtle can use her Wisdom skill for Arcane/Divine combat? Otherwise, could a veteran player answer that then I'll assume that's true until an official says otherwise (which seems to be the standard solution as far as I know)?
