The Investigator Quinn is a character that, perhaps more than any other, relies on post-Core boon design for a large part of his character to work. This generally comes down to two areas; his methods of using Alchemical Items, and his methods of using weapons. This can cause some measure of conflict with how he can be used in PACS, since - by and large - most players will solely have access to pre-Core boons to build with.
My quick and dirty analysis is in spoilers below for the curious, but you can skip them.
The primary benefit of it is that Alchemical/Liquid Proficiency - either added by the Conversion Guide or already existing on post-Core characters - is meaningful in OP besides just for the precious few examples of Core/Curse card replacements. It also makes some character powers simply work more effectively and intuitively.
In particular, it has been a big step forward to making the Investigator Quinn function better and produce new viable builds for him in PACS; since his numerous powers that reference Alchemical cards become much more viable since he can actually include Alchemical Cards in his deck that he's capable of re-using. (Or at least, he can include more than 1 or 2 of them, depending as to whether you're using Core card-substitution rules or not.)
Ultimate Equipment itself has relatively few boons that are impacted by this in a meaningful way for Quinn, however, as there are few alchemical cards that banish themselves in the set - fewer still which are well-suited to Quinn. Nevertheless, there is enough of the "Alchemical" card type to fuel Quinn's powers, and this can be extended further through some Class/Character Decks (notably, but not exclusively, the Alchemist CD).
===
Ultimate Equipment provides ample examples of weapons, in almost all levels, that follow the first 2 points. The third, however, is a bit of a hiccup.
Without weapon proficiency, Quinn can productively use the following Ultimate Equipment weapons: Rochin (Weapon 0), Sai (Weapon 0), Double Chicken Saber +1 (Weapon 1), Defending Sansetsukon +1* (Weapon 3), Adamantine Sai +2 (Weapon 4).
Of those, the most potent in combat is arguably the Double Chicken Saber +1, providing Acrobatics+1d8+1 with some other small advantages (and a distinct disadvantage in that it often forcibly discards itself). An argument can be made for the Adamantine Sai +2 to be better if it works against post-Core veteran monsters*.
There are other Acrobatics weapons in the set, including the much more powerful Meteor Hammer +3 (Weapon 5), but they greatly penalize the user for being non-weapon proficient, generally rendering them as worse options than any of the weapons I've listed.
There are more Acrobatics and Stealth pre-Core weapons smattered throughout other Class Decks - notably the Monk CD - but there exist no other weapons that surpass those in Ultimate Equipment for characters without Weapon Proficiency (or the Monk trait).
Since (with one small exception, unique to a specific role) Quinn has no power that can support him in combat, he is stuck with a Weapon 1 as (arguably) his best weapon he can access in PACS, with a mere Knowledge+1d8+1 as his combat check even into AD6.
This is not the case in home play, where weapons like the Dancing Dagger, the Keen Spiked Chain, the Limning Starknife, Serithtial and Blackjack cards all provide ample Level 4-6 weapons for him to continue to pick up and use to scale his combat checks up as monsters get harder. These - or weapons comparable to these - are left unavailable to Quinn in PACS.
===
In short, Quinn is greatly constrained in his weapon options after Tier 1 or 2 in PACS, where no matter his choice of Class/Character deck he will often have a hard time finding any weapon usable to him to improve with as the combat checks get higher and higher. Nor is he capable of taking power feats to improve his combat odds (with one, highly conditional and role-specific feat exception).
I am not suggesting that Quinn is underpowered; least of all just because he's weak in combat towards the end-game. I am not suggesting he needs a buff to be viable, nor that he needs a buff to be fun. I am not denigrating his design philosophy or telling people not to play him.
However.
Quinn playing through Curse of the Crimson Throne with standard rules has access to a much wider and stronger selection of boons that directly enable his character than one playing PACS does - even with full choice of which Class/Character deck to combine with Ultimate Equipment. In particular, this is true in the weapons department, where Ultimate Equipment (and any other Class Deck) does a poor job of supporting Quinn's core power in the late game, due to the expectation that Acrobatics/Finesse weapon users are also weapon proficient (as has generally been the case pre-Core).
Quinn is one of the relatively few characters that I think is consistently weaker in PACS - with full freedom of Class/Character Deck selection - than he is when playing at home, because his core powers simply don't function as well with pre-Core boons.
THE SUGGESTION:
Would giving an OP-exclusive errata to Quinn to let him spend a power feat on Weapon Proficiency rather than a hand size - thus opening up about 50% of the pre-Core Acrobatics weapons in the game to him (including the most powerful ones) - be... viable?
Would it make his character more interesting to play in Tiers 4+? Would it make building him more fun? Would it make attaining deck upgrades more fun? Would it make him function more similarly to how he functions in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, where he has many more, and many better, weapons to pick from?
In my personal opinion, the answer to all of these questions is "Yes", though I haven't sold myself on the idea of any kind of OP-exclusive errata.
Please note that this isn't so much an open letter to the developers or a request, as it is a hypothetical to see what other players think.
I like the points you raise.
I am playing Quinn online in the next Gameday
Very happy that the Alchemical Item conversion FaQ came out
That may be enough to keep Quinn playable later as he can use the items after his power feat.
I am happy to play him as is and focus on high barrier, low monster locations
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've got a solution to most any Core-ish problem like this >> << close to announcing. Be a little patient, and I'll get you covered.
Varian's Sword proficiency not applying to old swords is... not ideal. I'd like to patch that separately, but will need to think on the easiest / best method. Suggestions are welcome, though.
Chief Technical Officer
|
An argument can be made for the Adamantine Sai +2 to be better if it works against post-Core veteran monsters*.
(*Which... I'm not sure it does. I don't think typing "+#" into a check to defeat box counts as an "Effect", anymore than the number in there counts as an "Effect". But, as other forum-goers have mentioned, the term "Effect" is not clearly defined in PACG.)
Effect is defined in the glossary: "Anything that happens in the game."
It means what it says: Any. Thing. That. Happens.
You have suggested you won't be satisfied without a specific list, but that's not going to happen because such a list would encompass EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN THE GAME. Everything that happens.
It does not mean anything that exists in the game, though. According to Merriam-Webster, "happen" means "to come into being or occur." So when something happens, there's a definable beginning involved, and a state of activity of some sort.
The difficulty of a check—even if it involves a variable—does not "come into being" or "occur" in the game. It's a thing that just exists, not a thing that happens, so you're right: it's not an effect.
If something in the game were to change an existing difficulty, though, that change would be a thing that happens, so that would be an effect.
It does not mean anything that exists in the game, though. According to Merriam-Webster, "happen" means "to come into being or occur." So when something happens, there's a definable beginning involved, and a state of activity of some sort.
The difficulty of a check—even if it involves a variable—does not "come into being" or "occur" in the game. It's a thing that just exists, not a thing that happens, so you're right: it's not an effect.
That answers a question I've had, then, thank you.
I hope you can understand my confusion, however. Pre-Core Veteran monsters are, universally, impacted by Adamantine weapons (because they have a power - thus, an effect - that says "The difficulty of checks to defeat is increased by [some times the] adventure deck number"), and you've confirmed that post-Core Veteran monsters generally are not (since it's a symbolic variable in the check to defeat value, and not a line of text).
So pre-Core and post-Core Veteran monsters are differently impacted by adamantine weapons, which throws off my intuitive rules reading, to a point. I would have half-assumed that "difficulty 13+#" was supposed to be shorthand for "difficulty 13. The difficulty of checks are increased by the AD#", but they are actually distinct from one another. Significantly distinct when it comes to Adamantine weapons, in fact.
I've got a solution to most any Core-ish problem like this >> << close to announcing. Be a little patient, and I'll get you covered.
Varian's Sword proficiency not applying to old swords is... not ideal. I'd like to patch that separately, but will need to think on the easiest / best method. Suggestions are welcome, though.
Fascinating to hear; looking forward to hearing the solution!
I largely assume he's being used for his Epicurean role in my builds, however. Not because the Empiricist role is weaker, but because - by definition - its powers are entirely less reliant on having the right boons. If anything one of the greatest elements of his Empiricist role is allowing him to be less reliant on maximizing Item Card Feats immediately.
Plus, due to the smaller selection of relevant boons in pre-Core for Quinn; the ability to use spells does a lot for his build opportunities. Some of them he can even recharge (thanks to the option of recharging some spells with Perception), and plenty others you don't ever need to recharge (scenario-long spells like Steal Soul and Shapechange).
Re: Varian
Wouldn't an easy solution be to be a Conversion Guide update? Change all pre-Core weapons and armors that refer to Weapon or Heavy Armor proficiency to instead be errata'd to say "If proficient"?
That way, characters with proficiency for Shields or Helms (for future-proofing) will work with pre-Core Heavy Armor shields/helms, and it means that Varian can use pre-Core swords. I can't think of any undesirable side-effects, either. Regular Weapon, Armor and/or Heavy Armor proficiency all still work (and the latter is covered in the physical Transition Guide anyhow).
I agree with Yewstance's suggestion on Varian as it will come up again and again if you want to create more characters with limited proficiencies.
That blanket change was my first instinct, yes (in fact, I doublechecked that it wasn't already true when Tyler brought up the problem), but I'm unsure if it didn't happen for a reason, so would want to look over the proficient boons for any hidden problems (or at least have someone do so).
Still, that is the most likely answer, agreed.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
I hope you can understand my confusion, however. Pre-Core Veteran monsters are, universally, impacted by Adamantine weapons (because they have a power - thus, an effect - that says "The difficulty of checks to defeat is increased by [some times the] adventure deck number"), and you've confirmed that post-Core Veteran monsters generally are not (since it's a symbolic variable in the check to defeat value, and not a line of text).
True... but I think the fact that Adamantine worked against old Veteran cards was more by happenstance than design. (In the RPG, the most significant property of adamantine weapons is that they are good at cutting through solid objects.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Whilst "ignore difficulty increases" aren't nonexistent without considering Veteran monsters, they're certainly very, very rare in all Pre-Core sets, whilst Adamantine weapons themselves are consistently quite weak. The Adamantine Sai referenced in this thread is consistently an AD4 Weapon that only uses Strength/Melee/Acrobatics 1d4+2, for example, and it's equally low numbers across almost the entire board of weapons with that property.
I think I made the assumption that they were supposed to be anti-Veteran simply to justify the design space being used. If they were not intended to counter the Veteran trait, I would have assumed they'd be more in line with traditional weaponry power levels, since their only advantage becomes so narrow to be almost useless.
Post-Core monster design has a good deal more variety than pre-Core, but forced rerolls and non-Veteran difficulty increases (aside from Resistances) are still very rare, incidentally. But then, I don't think there's any Adamantine Weapons in Core/Cuse.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Outside of the Veteran trait, difficulty increases are exceptionally rare in PACG - and are almost universally tied to elemental resistances, whilst players using adamantine weapons are highly unlikely to be adding elemental traits to their combat checks.
To be fair, I have not discussed the designers' intent for Adamantine weapons with them, so I could well be wrong.
That said, when you said difficulty increases are exceptionally rare pre-Core, I went to my MM monster deck, and these were 3 of the top 4 cards:
• Blasphemous Priest: "If the check to defeat has the Divine trait, the difficulty is increased by 2d4."
• Bonecrusher Hyenamaster: "When you examine this card, encounter it; the difficulty to defeat is increased by 3."
• Bonecrusher Wizard: "When you examine this card, encounter it; the difficulty to defeat is increased by 3."
Then I wondered what set the first Adamantine weapon appeared in, and determined it was S&S. So I went to that monster deck, and these were the top 4 cards:
• Bilge Spider Swarm: "If you are on a ship, the difficulty of the check to defeat is increased by 4."
• Blood Moon Pirate: "Before you act, if the top card of the blessings discard pile is Blessing of the Gods, the difficulty of the check to defeat the Blood Moon Pirate is increased by 3."
• Bunyip: "Before you act, succeed at a Wisdom 9 check or the difficulty of your checks is increased by 1 for the rest of the turn."
• Cecaelia: "Before you act, succeed at a Wisdom or Perception 8 check or the difficulty of the check to defeat is increased by 2."
I'm not saying you're wrong—I'm just saying that literally 7 of the first 8 cards I looked at seem to be exceptional.
|
FWIW: skimming through the parts of S&S available on the Wiki, there's about the same number of Veteran and non-Veteran Monster cards in the Base Set; the first three decks add a couple non-Veterans each. Many of the non-Veterans are Basic or Elite so they drop out eventually, though.
More importantly, Hammerhead Shark is a Veteran and I think you fight more of those than all of the non-Veteran increasers combined. :)
Apparently my memory is faulty about how few difficulty increases there are. However, many of the ones listed by you kind of proves my point as to how low-value the Adamantine quality is if you discount Veteran difficulty increases.
In advance; this is me doing a simple numerical analysis which I feel demonstrates my points that Adamantine Weapons have no justification to be used (in the context of almost every bane out there, including those mentioned by Vic above) if they were not intended to be used against Veteran difficulty increases.
DISCLAIMER: I don't really care if Adamantine weapons are playable or not. I'm completely neutral to the mechanic, and it's barely been used . I'm simply explaining why I have a large degree of doubt at the suggestion that they were not intended as Anti-Veteran weaponry, which I will further explain in the spoilers below.
Adamantine Poniard +1 (AD5, Ranger) - 1d4+1 Melee - Average SKILL +3.5
Adamantine Trident +3 (AD6, Fighter) - 1d8+3 Melee - Average SKILL +7.5
Adamantine Sai +2 (AD4, Various) - 1d4+2 Melee/Acrobatics - Average SKILL +4.5
To put into perspective, take a Longsword +2 (AD2-AD3), which has been around since the start of the game and isn't even close to the most powerful weapon of its level in any of its printings in any set or Class Deck. Additionally, I'll make a comparison with other lower-tiered weapons available from the same class decks as the Adamantine Weapons above are from.
Longsword +2 (AD2-AD3, Various) - 1d8+2 Melee - Average SKILL +6.5
Main-Gauche +2 (AD2, Ranger) - 1d4+1 Melee - Average SKILL +3.5 -
Greatclub +3 (AD4, Fighter) - 1d10+3 Melee - Average SKILL +8.5 -
Nunchaku +1 (AD1, Monk) - 1d6+1 Melee/Acrobatics - Average SKILL +4.5 -
I tried to provide examples of weapons that don't have many other powers and are close to 1-to-1 comparisons with the Adamantine weapons from the same Class Decks. If I loosen the conditions of my search, I quickly find that most weapons of the same tier as these Adamantine weapons (in the same class deck) tend to provide between +2 to +5 average combat results.
Therefore, I conclude that choosing to use an Adamantine weapon is reducing your final combat check by about 3 on average, to be generous.
Blasphemous Priest isn't relevant; it's almost impossible to add the Divine trait to a check where you're using an Adamantine weapon to define your check (weapons don't tend to add the Divine trait), aside from VERY specific character powers and boons which aren't in MM.
Bonecrusher card difficulty increases only turn up when Triggered, which is often going to be uncommon. Furthermore, their overall difficulty to defeat is quite low. Even if you were worried about consistently triggering them, an Adamantine Weapon is unlikely to do more than be on-par with a same-tiered weapon tooled to just roll higher numbers, as previously discussed.
The S&S monsters are a bit more compelling, but the "BA Wisdom or difficulty increase" in particular tends to only be +1 or +2 in difficulty, which once again is less than the combat math you're giving up by using Adamantine weapons in the first place. Only the Bilge Spider Swarm could really justify you using, say, an Adamantine Sai +2 over some Rapier +2 or the like.
If you discount Veteran; how often do you come across monsters that are increasing their difficulty by 3, 4 or more? If the answer is less than "about 50% of all monsters", then choosing an Adamantine weapon that's providing much lower combat odds just so you can sometimes break even or get a small advantage on a minority of the monsters you encounter seems a perplexing choice to make.
The more I run the numbers, the more I find it almost impossible to conceive that non-Veteran difficulty increases alone justify the Adamantine weapon design philosophy in any Base Set. At least, with the sole POSSIBLE exception of Wrath of the Righteous, since that set featured monsters who could increase their difficulty by as much as 1d20 in some cases. Other sets just don't have that kind of threat outside of the Veteran trait, where the difficulty increases almost never are large enough to justify the very weak, high-level nature of Adamantine weapons.
I'd not be surprised if adamantine was intended to beat Veteran in S&S, but starting in the very next set (Wrath of the Righteous) it began outperforming. The percentage of Veteran cards has increased dramatically from S&S to Core (and pretty much every step along the way, from RotR onwards, it's increased), and I can confirm that it's not intended to work against Veteran in Core onwards.
Oddly enough, it still works well in all of those previous sets, so if you're using a Ranger class deck in seasons 0-5, you're well served by it.
P.S. The weapon comparison above is essentially flawed by comparing different types of weapons. Because it's a Finesse Offhand that allows Acrobatics, has a dagger kicker, and has a defensive function, the B Basic Sai is considered on par with the Nunchaku (+1 avg) and Longsword (+2 avg) already. The Adamantine Trident +3 (7.5) _is_ on par with the Flaming Longsword +3 (7.5) or Demonbane Longsword +2 (6.5) or Crook and Flail of Kings (7.5). All of them are less good than the 2-handed proficiency required magic greatswords (8 or 9).
I've got a solution to most any Core-ish problem like this >> << close to announcing. Be a little patient, and I'll get you covered.
I'm playing Quinn in Year 6 (halfway through AD3) with Ult Equip + Rogue, so I'm also looking forward to the announcement. :) I've had a great time with Quinn thus far, and I'm having fun hatching creative solutions to his weapons shortcomings. But we'll see how things pan out in the latter half of the campaign.
I'm actually visiting this thread because our awesome and knowledgeable box runner mentioned that Adamantine Sai has had its functionality changed. Realistically, that leaves Quinn with one weapon upgrade covering all of AD3 through AD6: Defending Sansetsukon +1, which is only slightly better than the Rochin.
- 3 weapons currently in Quinn's deck: Rapier (Core), Double Chicken Saber +1, Rochin.
- I'm running the Plaguefinder's Mask loot (adds 1d8), but it doesn't play well with Double Chicken Saber +1. The Saber already has a 12.5% chance of being discarded upon use, and adding extra d8's drives up that percentage.
(For the same reason, Bloodroot Poison and Pre-Core Wyvern Poison are dicey additions to Quinn's deck - since they also add d8's. Also, poison isn't a great trait in an undead-heavy season like Rotting Ruins.)
Interesting possibilities:
- Thanks to the Rogue deck, the Unearthly Aim spell (10+# to melee combat) and Old Salt are possible combat boosters. Though UA can only be used once per scenario.
- If Serithtial makes a Loot appearance in Year 6, Quinn will definitely add it to the top of his Christmas list.
Agreed! I am playing Quinn and OA2 and been using Allys etc to try and boost combat.
Definitely happy there is a Grenek in my table with a local comabt boost
I'dd add that my Quinn is packing Blessing of the Sages (Plundered Tombs campaign reward), which helps. BotS recharges to add 3d8 to a perception/knowledge check, and Quinn's combat checks are knowledge based.
Most players won't have access to BotS, though.
Agreed, that BoSages would be awesome :-)
Havent got mine :-(
Can’t find the full wording either
Agreed, that BoSages would be awesome. Can’t find the full wording either
Recharge this card to add 3d8 to any Knowledge or Perception check.
Recharge this card to examine the top card of any location deck; you may ignore any power that happens when you examine a card. If the examined card lists Knowledge or Perception in its check to acquire or defeat, you may encounter it.
Thanks! Wow! Tailor made for Quinn!!
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm. I'm two scenarios shy of completing SoPT - I might want to see if I can finish those off so I can get that reward for Quinn.
Quinn also really benefits from the "Investigator's Lamp" promo card.
That one I do have.
Oh yes, I have the lamp in my Quinn. Its awesome
To summarize, we agree that Quinn is pretty good with two cards that very few players have access to. ;)
Anyway, looking forward to Quinn's weapons resolution. Happy holidays!
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
So I was just revisiting the idea of trying to get the Blessing of the Sages into the deckbox for Quinn, as I will shortly be playing him in Curse of the Crimson Throne.
On closer inspection it doesn't necessarily seem to be that good an idea. It's a Blessing 6, so the only chance to acquire it is once we're playing in Tier 6. But there aren't any level 6 blessings available in Core+Curse, so the only chance for a Blessing 6 upgrade is by getting one of the Harrow blessings that match the current harrow suit. There are only 9 of those, and several of them will already be taken (one for each character). If we have five players, that means there's about a 1 in 25 chance that any particular blessing will be one of the ones we want. This means that, on average, we'll have about a 50% chance of finding one in the first ten blessings we encounter.
I don't know how many blessings there would be in the locations of Adventure 6 of Curse (I could find out, of course, but that just wouldn't feel right), but I suspect we'd typically have to play more than one scenario to encounter ten blessings. And it's not really useful to get the upgrade in the final scenario - the idea is to get the blessing into Quinn's hand before the adventure path is complete!
I could increase the odds significantly, of course, by making sure Quinn has a Sacred Candle in his deck (and hope he's managed to get it into his hand in time). Maybe I'll do that ...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Blessing of the Sages isn't a Blessing 6. It's a Loot P Blessing (AD0).
I wonder why I didn't think to use it on my OA2 Mavaro though...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've switched to an all-packets version of Quinn (Finesse, Alchemy, Support), and he's a lot of fun. Much more powerful than before, with access to much better weapons.
Agreed! I have gone Finesse Pack & Alchemist Pack & Occult Pack
With the decent finesse weapons, I am not missing Weapon proficiencyI am very happy with him as is