Curse of the Crimson Throne 7A - The Base


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

BEWARE SCENARIO TEXT SPOILERS FOR THE FINAL SCENARIO OF CURSE OF THE CRIMSON THRONE.

Can the Base be explored in 7A? My initial reading is a hard 'no', due to the wording of 7A as a 'Siege Deck' scenario; but then why is the Base included if it cannot be explored? Is it purely thematic without any mechanical consequences, or is there something I'm missing?

CotCT 7A During This Scenario wrote:
When you would explore, instead encounter the top card of the siege pile as if it were the top card of your location. [...]
The Base wrote:

When you explore, draw the top 3 or # cards of this location. Keep 1 and return the rest in any order, then do 1:

* Draw a card.
* Heal a card.
* Recharge any number of cards.
* Remove 1 of your scourges.

======================================

This raises several specific questions, which if answered can help me understand the intent of the Base in this scenario - as well as help me understand the game more fully.

  • 1. The scenario text says "when you would explore, instead [do X]", so does it even count as an exploration or not if it's clearly replacing one with an 'instead'?

    I've always observed that players, including the most veteran of players, treat Defensive Stance/Siege scenarios as if such a replacement is still an 'exploration' (with "during this exploration" powers still working, and players not being able to 'explore' off turn). I don't quite understand why an effect that replaces an exploration with an encounter is still being treated as an exploration, but I can guess that the "as if it were the top card of your location" text is supposed to clarify that it is.

    Speaking of things I don't understand, though...

  • 2. The Base text says "When you explore, [do X]", so how does this interact with the scenario power, if at all?

    Previous developer statements in these forums, such as on locations like Dark Forest (which has its location power reprinted in the CotCT Fishery), have stated that "when you explore" effects simply replace the exact function of an exploration. For reference...

    Fishery wrote:
    When you explore, examine the top 2 cards of this location; shuffle 1 into the location and encounter the other.
    Core Rulebook wrote:
    When you explore, first apply any effects that happen when you explore, then flip over the top card of your current location and encounter it.

    That is, when something would cause you to explore, you follow the instructions on the location instead of your normal exploration - you don't, for example, complete the text to encounter one of the top 2 cards, and then take your exploration (which is, admittedly, how it reads to me). However, this 'sort-of' replacement effect is still an 'exploration' - again, power that function "during your exploration" appear to be expected to work.

    Honestly, the Fishery and Dark Forest locations always confused me in the first place (among other things, it seems like they're un-explorable if they've only got 1 card in them, since you'd have to examine it, then shuffle it away, and there's no 'other' card to encounter).

    Either way, the question is; if your exploration has been replaced with an 'instead' effect, do any of the Base's effects go off? I would think 'no' - you never get to draw a supporter, and you don't get the heal or any other effect, but then I don't understand why the Base is listed.

    Or are you supposed to get the heal/etc from the Base, because the Siege Deck rules say to treat the encountered card as if it was encountered at your location - but the Base says to do that after drawing a Supporter from there, so I don't think that's right.

  • 3. What is the distinction between "When you explore, [do X]" and "When you would explore, instead [do X]", if any?

    Are you still 'exploring' when you encounter a card during either of these replacement effects? Why or why not?


  • Ad 3. There should be quite substantial difference - When you would explore triggers first and if there is a replacement power that takes away your exploration before it even starts, when you explore never triggers.
    Your reasoning is otherwise OK and per rules you could not explore in the Base due to scenario replacement power overriding location replacement power. Right?

    Ad 1. Hmmm, I think you are not "exploring", but having an encounter within the explore step (replacement). So I would not allow "during this exploration, add 1d4 to …" but that is just my opinion.
    Fishery and Dark Forest - if these were written as "examine 2 cards, encounter 1 and (before the encounter,) shuffle the other back", would it help you? Then you do as much as possible and ignore the rest (shuffle the other back) per RAW.


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    The Fishery/Dark Forest reword would work.

    However, regarding Question 1, I can assure you I've never seen a player in PBP - including some of the longest-term PACG players out there - ignore "When you explore" effects in Defensive Stance/Siege scenarios, despite that using the phrase "when you would explore, instead [do X]".

    I agree, that doesn't look right, though - it's clearly written as if it removes your exploration and replaces it with a completely different effect.


    It might be purely for Blackjack purposes (see his Rapier)


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
    Maelwys0 wrote:
    It might be purely for Blackjack purposes (see his Rapier)

    Acknowledged, though it still seems odd.

    I'd like to bump these questions; could I get clarification on why the Base is in the scenario? Is it really for the 3 or so cards in the box that only work if the Base is there, and only for minor effects?

    Additionally, I'd really like to know what the difference is - if any - between the two "Exploration replacement" powers I listed in the first post. Especially if it means that I've been wrong (as has everyone else I've ever played with) regarding Siege scenarios, in case they're supposed to nullify "During your exploration" effects entirely, or even remove some limits associated with explorations (as opposed to encounters).


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    It's almost been another week, so I'd like to bump this again, especially because it impacts my understanding of other areas of the rules.

    My RAW understanding right now states that there is (almost) no reason for the Base to be at this location, but this thread has also indicated to me that there are two completely differently worded "exploration replacement" effects that appear to function identically (based on my observation of every player), even though I'm not sure their text suggests they should.

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    Added FAQ for the primary question.

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    Powers that replace your exploration should use "For your exploration, [do x]."

    Added/Updated FAQ's for Curse Scenario 7A, Base and Fishery, and Forbiddance; Wrath Dark Forest; and MM Defensive Stance.


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

    Vic, you're a champion!

    I will however note that, RAW, you still cannot explore the Fishery or Dark Forest if there's only 1 card there.

    They instruct you to examine 2 cards (limited resources sidebar in the Core Rulebook confirm you would just examine 1 if that's all that remains), shuffle one back, then encounter the other. If you only examine 1 card, it would be examined and shuffled back and your exploration would be over.


    Yewstance wrote:

    I will however note that, RAW, you still cannot explore the Fishery or Dark Forest if there's only 1 card there.

    Thread necromancy because this thread on BGG raised the question of what to do if a Trigger caused one of the examined cards to go away.

    Peakhope on that thread opined that the player's selection of a card to shuffle and a card to encounter is not a sequential choice, but, in effective, simultaneous. By the Rule of Limited Resources, if only one card remains, you do not have enough resources to fulfill both choices, so I think you decide whether or not to encounter the remaining card. This resolves both Yewstance's and the BGG poster's dilemmas.

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