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Also, expanding on charging:

I assume that charging is a march maneuver, so you could execute it and melee attack (as you are limited to move and attack OR maneuver and attack), but the attack is NOT included in the maneuver (so you could not charge-attack and then attack again) right?

A couple of questions:

The way they are listed, maneuvers are a bit confusing:

Is "moving" considered a maneuver (marching forward, as the march maneuver, which doesn't require discipline test)? Basically: what are the differences between moving and the "marching" battlefield maneuver?

When charging, I assume that you only get to do one attack, right? What about a troll, who has three natural attacks, bite and 2 claws? Does he only get a single attack when charging (chossing which weapon)? Also, as a unit of trolls has no armor, I assume they need no discipline check for any march maneuver, right?

When wheeling (in order to pivot to better face an enemy), how are then squares counted for movement, if you wheel only 45 degrees (and thus you are facing "diagonal" movement every time you advance)? Does it count as all of your movement being diagonal (and thus counting double every two squares)?

Do criticals need a natural 20 (or 19-20 depending on weapons), or if for example you need a 19 to score a critical but you're flanking you could score a critical when rolling a 17 or higher?

How do units with no leader or commander rally or recover from routing? For example a unit of savage trolls.

As you can see, I'm really planning on my PCs facing trolls :P

Any updates on this? I've been thinking about incorporating Warpath once mass combat starts appearing in my heavily modified Kingmaker (which has a ton of medieval intrigue and warfare, so it makes sense). We still have all of Varnhold Vanishing to play and the ending of Rivers Run Red before getting to any mass combat, but would be interested in learning what others have experienced with it.

Has anyone attempted to play the Kingmaker AP spanning through several generations?
We're mid way through RRR and a PC had a child and two other babies are on their way.
I've got a twist plot planned for the first baby and thought that in order to develop the Brevoy plot, I could weave a blood feud between Rostlandian nobles and Issian Houses (all of them in conflict with each other).

So I thought: could it be possible to use both things together? Now, the thing is that I don't know where to put the "nothing happens" years fast forward. Where would it make sense plot wise (related to the AP). Also how would it be justified with regards to the expansion of the realm (which would have to slow down, as they have become three times the original size of the realm in a little over a year, so if more time goes on, I should explain why it has stagnated)?
Would it mess things up too much? Any experiences with it?
I was sort of inspired by the Pendragon Great Campaign playing style, although "domain turns" there take a full year so it might not translate.

Wow, amazing idea Pennywit, thank you so much. I'm definitely going to use the whole "trapped in the fey world" thing.

So, if I get it right, you mean that when he comes back to the fort he's spent time in the fey realm. My only doubt would be: would he had gone there *before* leaving with his raid party and the River Kingdom ambassador? Or you mean after he comes and finds the fort taken he decides to back up, goes to ask for aid from the fey and then enters the fey realm? (it might look a bit weird for the ambassador and his men to see him disappear and then come back older and with some weird dude that looks like him... but I guess he is seen as a weird person anyways so...).

BornOfHate: regarding the difficulty of future magical events in the low magic setting, I should clarify that it's low fantasy in the civilized lands (ie. Brevoy basically). The Stolen Lands are untamed, beyond the frontier lands and thus I approach them in a much more "weird fantasy" way where strange and paranormal things happen. Think of it kind of like when Sword and Sorcery heroes like Conan step outside the big cities or civilized towns. They meet evil sorcerers, abominations etc. But they wouldn't expect their kings to have a wizards to cast divination spells for them.

Thanks for the advice guys!

The idea that the Stag Lord survives and plans his revenge is good. But unfortunately, I don't think I'm doing it because, first Dovan is dead. Stag Lord is the only one left alive and free from the fort. And as I said, the taking of the fort was not bad, but felt a bit underwhelming (or so I felt) for the PCs. Only two were injured, the berseker didn't even suffer a scratch.

So I need a final battle for Stolen Lands. I was thinking about this, let me see what you think: PCs have captured Akiros, who was left at exactly 1 HP. He's badly wounded and decides he's surrending to the PCs, thinking they are just tougher bandits who want to take control of the area, so he offers his services. My players are going to ask for information first, so they will learn that the Stag Lord left with his guard de corps for a raid on Rostland, together with an ambassador of a River Kingdom whom he was hoping to impress by performing such a bold operation (raiding the kingdom of Brevoy! Crossing the border! Getting tons of booty!). His long term goal was to found a barony in the area (and thus his intent to get support from that River Kingdom (I'm still undecided which one to use, but as I'm using a customized version of the setting it could be any save for Pitax which I understand plays a role in later modules): they would provide him arms and military support in case Brevoy got annoyed at such an enemy near their frontiers; he would return the favour by being a base of operations near a wealthy and unprotected border such as Rostland).

Anyway, this will all back up the fact that when he comes back, he does with tougher bandits (he left with his tougher men and left his liutenants at the fort because he didn't trust neither of them alone and knew they didn't like each other so they would snitch if any of them tried anything funny). Once he comes back he feels forced to re-take the fort to save face in front of the River Kingdom ambassador, as he doesn't want to look weak before him. He will try to infiltrate the fort with his men through the tunnel, or perhaps try a night assault.

Now, I want someone from the whole gang to be left alive in order to do the whole "creating unrest" once the PC's kingdom gets going, as you guys suggested. I thought about using the ambassador, which I like because it ties the PC's with the feeling that there are "powers" outside the area watching them (I changed the backstory on Brevoy and Rostland a bit so they are aware of them too, but I wanted some western enemies also keeping an eye on them). Another option would be to make it clear that the Stag Lord has returned with the ambassador and his men, plus another (new) liutenant (Auchs was taken prisoner before, btw). This new liutenant could then try to escape to the ambassador's River Kingdom once the PC's are clearly getting their way, and plot his revenge from there, getting a bit of their support. With time, however, and as the PC's foil his attempts, he might eventually be considered "expendable" by the lord of the River Kingdom. I kind of like the idea that some time in the future this character might become a tragic figure: someone who thinks that the support of the river kingdom is enough to recover the land from the PC's but eventually understands he is unable to, his allies turn on him and he ends up dying a sad death.

I was thinking that in order to make this all more believeable, this liutenant could be the Stag Lord's son or some other younger relative (thus his obsession with re-taking the area... he was going to inherit it!). How do you guys think that the Stag Lord could have had a son? How would he be?

On the tunnel: I'm modifying the module a bit, injecting my whole "weird fantasy" take on the campaign. Instead of the underground layer, I want to expand it a bit and turn it into an ancient temple dedicated to older pagan gods (in my setting there is only one "civilized" god, and other gods are seen with suspicion when not with hostility, as they are associated with Chaos and evil). So once the PC's go underground they find this ancient temple where the Stag Lord's dad lives. That explains him being a druid (he found the temple a long tie ago and devoted himself to their gods, eventually becoming crazy and being part locked there by the Stag Lord, part deciding to live there with his "creatures".

The temple is also home to a weapon that the Stag Lord prices, as it is a magical weapon (in my version of the module, magical weapons are VERY rare, and all have a history). This weapon was actually carried by a Derusan general (Derus being the equivalent to the Roman Empire in my world) who held those lands with his men and found the temple to the pagan gods. After pillaging it, killing the priests and basically thrasing the whole place because it was devoted to dark gods, he fell victim to a curse by those same gods and his twisted soul inhabits the weapon. So yes, it's an intelligent weapon which I intend to play as an anti-hero: he was brutal and efficient, but at the same time he confronted evil cultists. He now is going to inhabit the weapon of a PC, asking him for weird stuff (sacrificing enemies etc.) but will do so because he is cursed to do so.

What do you guys think?

My players took the Stag Lords fort with little effort (only two were injured) because of a combination of infiltration and mostly due to the fact that we are playing using Iron Heroes rules. I didn't know the EL of characters but from what I saw, they are higher than their 3rd level suggests ans they cut through bandits like butter and only thought the owl bear to be a challenge (Auchs and Akiros are prisoners, Dovan is dead).

Now I'm left to think of a way to push the story forward both in the sense of what would the Stag Lord do once he returned to fins his fort taken and game wise, how to make it a challenge . Should I give the nooks some levels? How would they plan to retake the fort? Diplomacy, siège, infiltration? How long would a fort like that last a siege?

Thanks!

(Crossposting from the advice sub-forum, as I think I'll get more help here :P)

A month ago, my friends and I started running the Kingmaker adventure path. We were all very excited about the whole spirit of the adventure path: exploring a frontier, wilderness land and forging a kingdom there. I did make some changes to the adventure path: even though I still used Brevoy and the different names for locations and stuff, I didn't set it in Golarion and decided to use my own personal setting, which I wanted to make low/weird fantasy and gritty. Nothing against high fantasy, but I feel like my friends and I have grown closer to the sort of low-fantasy in the last few years.

My idea was to make it a world where civilization (Brevoy and other kingdoms) is low-fantasy: magic is something seen as dangerous and that drives you insane (the forces of Chaos, the Great Old Ones etc.) and besides the odd guy in the hut outside the village, no sane person dabbles in that. The only sentient race that people know of are humans, with a few dwarves considered a legacy from times past, but they live in the mountains in a secluded fashion so most people have never seen one. Religion is restricted to the only true faith, that of Treum, although there are struggles within his church and heresies sometimes sweep the land (think medieval Christendom). But as you step outside civilization, things become more weird fantasy, and you can encounter weird man-beasts, weird abominations and stuff like that.

So my idea was to make my characters as "plausible" as possible: no wizards or sorecerers as PCs, and clerics only able to cast spells that could be understood by someone in our Middle Ages (everyone could have faith in a cleric blessing you, not on casting a magical spirit light on your sword). This last point is a bit of contention with a player, but that's another story. At the same time, as the Stolen Lands are a frontier land, all of the things form the adventure path make sense in my setting, as they are "outside civilization" and thus do not clash with the feel. It only means that most people's reaction to seeing mites is not "hey that's a fey semihuman race maybe we can communicate" and more in the lines of "what is that abomination that looks like deformed human, kill it with fire".

My problem is: I know Pathfinder is a very magic-dependent system, but as I am an old school D&D fan and the adventure path is based on the Pathfinder ruleset, I did not mind trying my hand in it. Do you guys think it would require a lot of change? I'm asking because I'm new to Pathfinder and don't know if by restricting their magic casting and making magical items rarer I'm crippling them to the point where by the time they meet CR 7 encounters they will most likely die. Is it too difficult to run? What changes would you recommend? I've been looking into Iron Heroes. Would it fit the style I'm thinking of? I want clerics to have a certain role, but not with flashy spells. Would the conversion once we are already in level 2 be possible?

Keep in mind I don't have a problem with PCs facing fantastic elements, monsters, wizards, whatever. I probably was wrong in using "low-fantasy", as I was thinking more of "low-fantasy at home, in the civilized lands... once in the frontier, weird fantasy goes". So no problem with my PCs fighting trolls or lizardmen. I just want the stark contrast between human lands being devoid of that. That means that heroes don't trust wizards or magic as it's seen as a force of Chaos. Yeah, maybe once they get to know the weird hermit in the forest they might start to appreciate his skills and not want to burn him alive. But I don't want them thinking about magic as just another resource. It should be something dangerous, kind of like in the Middle Ages when monarchs had pagan wizards or psychics help them by trying to see the future: most people would be wary of such an idea, and it certainly would be kept from the general population as it would indicate that "something's off" with the king. I guess the correct term for the campaign I'm aiming for is Sword and Sorcery, a la a group of humans going into the lair of foul creatures and mad wizards and purging the land of those Chaos abominations. Think part Warhammer, part Conan.

So my problems would be more like "practical" difficulties when you bring low-fantasy heroes into weird fantasy territory. Are monsters going to be very difficult to hit and kill because PF assumes that characters will have access to magic buffs by that level? I think that's more or less solvable (bring down AC, bring down HP). The other problem, things like heroes being defenseless against relatively simple magic tricks because they don't use any magic, is more problematic. I'm thinking about a wizards controlling their mind easily, or simply levitating and them being unable to hit him. Or maybe a part of the AP where characters need a floating disk or a fly spell to cross over this huge chasm.

In order to solve the first problem, I was thinking of getting Iron Heroes. If I'm not wrong, it is a an add-on to 3.5 DnD where heroes can progress and become more powerful without the need of magic (extra feats, combat skills, etc.). Is anyone familiar with it? How difficult would it be to combine Iron Heroes PC´s with a Pathfinder AP as Kingmaker? (I mean, to have my PCs use IH classes etc but then monsters and enemies using magic and being straight out of the Kingmaker AP).

Thanks for all the help!

A month ago, my friends and I started running the Kingmaker adventure path. We were all very excited about the whole spirit of the adventure path: exploring a frontier, wilderness land and forging a kingdom there. I did make some changes to the adventure path: even though I still used Brevoy and the different names for locations and stuff, I didn't set it in Golarion and decided to use my own personal setting, which I wanted to make low/weird fantasy and gritty. Nothing against high fantasy, but I feel like my friends and I have grown closer to the sort of low-fantasy in the last few years.

My idea was to make it a world where civilization (Brevoy and other kingdoms) is low-fantasy: magic is something seen as dangerous and that drives you insane (the forces of Chaos, the Great Old Ones etc.) and besides the odd guy in the hut outside the village, no sane person dabbles in that. The only sentient race that people know of are humans, with a few dwarves considered a legacy from times past, but they live in the mountains in a secluded fashion so most people have never seen one. Religion is restricted to the only true faith, that of Treum, although there are struggles within his church and heresies sometimes sweep the land (think medieval Christendom). But as you step outside civilization, things become more weird fantasy, and you can encounter weird man-beasts, weird abominations and stuff like that.

So my idea was to make my characters as "plausible" as possible: no wizards or sorecerers as PCs, and clerics only able to cast spells that could be understood by someone in our Middle Ages (everyone could have faith in a cleric blessing you, not on casting a magical spirit light on your sword). This last point is a bit of contention with a player, but that's another story. At the same time, as the Stolen Lands are a frontier land, all of the things form the adventure path make sense in my setting, as they are "outside civilization" and thus do not clash with the feel. It only means that most people's reaction to seeing mites is not "hey that's a fey semihuman race maybe we can communicate" and more in the lines of "what is that abomination that looks like deformed human, kill it with fire".

My problem is: I know Pathfinder is a very magic-dependent system, but as I am an old school D&D fan and the adventure path is based on the Pathfinder ruleset, I did not mind trying my hand in it. Do you guys think it would require a lot of change? I'm asking because I'm new to Pathfinder and don't know if by restricting their magic casting and making magical items rarer I'm crippling them to the point where by the time they meet CR 7 encounters they will most likely die. Is it too difficult to run? What changes would you recommend? I've been looking into Iron Heroes. Would it fit the style I'm thinking of? I want clerics to have a certain role, but not with flashy spells. Would the conversion once we are already in level 2 be possible?

Keep in mind I don't have a problem with PCs facing fantastic elements, monsters, wizards, whatever. I probably was wrong in using "low-fantasy", as I was thinking more of "low-fantasy at home, in the civilized lands... once in the frontier, weird fantasy goes". So no problem with my PCs fighting trolls or lizardmen. I just want the stark contrast between human lands being devoid of that. That means that heroes don't trust wizards or magic as it's seen as a force of Chaos. Yeah, maybe once they get to know the weird hermit in the forest they might start to appreciate his skills and not want to burn him alive. But I don't want them thinking about magic as just another resource. It should be something dangerous, kind of like in the Middle Ages when monarchs had pagan wizards or psychics help them by trying to see the future: most people would be wary of such an idea, and it certainly would be kept from the general population as it would indicate that "something's off" with the king. I guess the correct term for the campaign I'm aiming for is Sword and Sorcery, a la a group of humans going into the lair of foul creatures and mad wizards and purging the land of those Chaos abominations. Think part Warhammer, part Conan.

So my problems would be more like "practical" difficulties when you bring low-fantasy heroes into weird fantasy territory. Are monsters going to be very difficult to hit and kill because PF assumes that characters will have access to magic buffs by that level? I think that's more or less solvable (bring down AC, bring down HP). The other problem, things like heroes being defenseless against relatively simple magic tricks because they don't use any magic, is more problematic. I'm thinking about a wizards controlling their mind easily, or simply levitating and them being unable to hit him. Or maybe a part of the AP where characters need a floating disk or a fly spell to cross over this huge chasm.

In order to solve the first problem, I was thinking of getting Iron Heroes. If I'm not wrong, it is a an add-on to 3.5 DnD where heroes can progress and become more powerful without the need of magic (extra feats, combat skills, etc.). Is anyone familiar with it? How difficult would it be to combine Iron Heroes PC´s with a Pathfinder AP as Kingmaker?

Thanks for all the help!