Ediwir's page

Yeah now you actually get to do a lot of the alchemy yourself rather than shrugging and getting the fighter to land the poison for you.

Let’s just toss it in the bin as soon as it arrives - the Fighter sucks at poisoning, so you want to do that yourself.

You definitely want the fighter to have a poison as well, because that means more poison on the map, but the toxicologist should carry the most important one, because toxi is better than fighter at poisoning. Example:

Fighter rolls to hit with poisoned weapon. He crits! Enemy saves against Alch class DC. Things happen. Poison expires.

Toxi rolls to hit with poisoned weapon. He hits. Enemy saves against Alch class DC with a -2 penalty for flanking. Things happen. Poison probably expires (but maybe not).

Alchemist is the best character at using alchemical items. Don’t believe me? Give a fighter a bomb and look at his face closely.

Speaking as a Mutagenist veteran, I’d say we’re still heavily affected. While we didn’t really care much about the amount of mutagens we were making with dailies, we did often lean heavilhy into party buffing via non-mutagen elixirs, and the amount of dailies matters a lot there. The extra mutagens added variety for situational picks, but the bulk was spent to buff saves, perception, grant damage resistance, and various utility based on the day.

There’s also a lot in the new mutagenist subclass that either isn’t impactful or just won’t see the light of day - two actions to drop a skill penalty I lived with for years, or gain a handful of tempHP? I might as well forget the option exists. Rerolling my best save? Sure, maybe one day if I’m desperate.

I’m more worried about having to buy Striking runes for my handwraps in bulk once Deadly starts to scale.

With everything we already have, (I'm still going to read the book), but what would be my best bet for having a damage/support and/or healing character? Bomber or Toxic? And regardless of which of these, would Medic as an archetype for healing work well?

Bomber gives you proper support and useful abilities which are immediately usable. Toxi relies a lot on draw avoidance and action compression, so if what I said sounds like nonsense, skip.

I really feel like toxicologist Alchemists could use something like Quick Bomber, but for their poisons.

As it is, they'd probably want to get a rogue feat (Poison Weapon) to be able to draw a poison and apply it to their weapon in one action, which certainly feels like something they should be able to do with an Alchemist feat of their own.

The ability for them to create 'infinite' basic poisons is a lot less useful when you need the weapon you'd like to poison in hand along with needing to be in range/reach of the enemy you'd like to attack at the start of your turn to be able to use it at all. One action to make the 'Quick Vial', one action to apply it, and the last action to attack.

It's certainly better than Toxicology was before, absolutely, but when it's compared to being able to lob 3 'free' bombs a turn, it seems lack-luster.

Good thing toxicologists can also lob 3 free bombs a turn, then!

/s

Trip.H wrote:

Calculated Splash was taken away and locked inside the Bomber Features.

"Calculated Splash" did get locked away... but only because the feat got replaced with a better one. Instead of getting Int mod in place of splash damage, the feat adds Int mod as a status bonus on top of the base splash damage.

That’s only true if you ignore that bombs were nerfed in their function. We basically have the old lv10 feat without requirement (meaning bombs suck before lv10, and then go back to the old scaling), but with a weaker chassis which downscales the entire bomb projection.

It’s not even a hidden nerf. It’s very open, blatant, and was handed to everyone as a gift.

Chirugeons didn't rely on quick alchemy for elixirs of life before, but they still needed to draw them.

Nah. Draw avoidance has been a key concept for years - most Alchemists figured out a way or two to draw as a free action or draw outside of turns. That played a pretty big role, because consumables are not as strong as spells, so using two actions for them feels generally pretty bad.

The predictable result is that those who know still know, and feel capped (because they are), but those who don't will just try to play the class "as intended"... and feel weak for it.

Unless they're bombers, I suppose. Then again,

Bomber damage looks pretty good from where I'm sitting, with double intelligence + alchemist goggles + additives like sticky bombs now being on almost every consumable bomb you use.

It's a bit behind the old bomber, mostly because of the removal of area splash on failure. It gets a little closer after lv10, and finally catches up when they get their master proficiency.

That’s perfectly fine with me, I know how to play around actions to make dailies and crafts work the way I want - but there is a LOT of emphasis on QA is this remaster. And while QA is potentially very powerful, it’s very inefficient. Bomber has action efficiency, but got its damage nerfed. Everyone else needs to play very unintuitively to gain efficiency, and newbies don’t do that. So… what do you expect will happen?

I don't think using Quick Alchemy mid combat will be that bad. You start with 8 advanced items you can hold during exploration-- that's more combats than you should ever have in a day. You can stay constantly buffed with almost any 2 elixirs in exploration, and then 3 at level 9. And quick bomber removes the action tax on quick alchemy bombs. Other action economy hacks include the collar of the shifting spider and the new familiar item delivery ability.

The only thing which really seems to be hurting from all this is the toxicologist.

All the subclasses hurt a bit, some more than others. The ceiling was majorly dropped -and that’s kinda fine- but we’re also looking at bomber losing early-to-mid game damage (for no understandable reason), the utility angle being wrecked by clamping down team buffing, action economy being just as much as a divider as before (meaning the floor hasn’t lifted that much), confusing language, conflicting features, and more.

I’m unsure if there is something we haven’t seen yet that will help things, and I’m just being overly negative, or if this is just it.

I was told this was supposed to make the class more approachable. I can still manage it, but will a newcomer get good results?

I understand why the nerfs were necessary (except the nerf to bombs, I don’t get that), but I am concerned about the usability issue. Using alchemy mid combat has always been poorly effective, and with this much emphasis on quick alchemy we’ll face this near constantly. Is there anything in the works to dampen the issue?

My Foundry players recently discovered that I use an automated timer to remind me to give out a hero point each hour.

Soon after, everything in our games slowed down so that our two hour sessions have more than doubled to five hours!

Change the timer to two hours.

Alternatively, assign hero points to players who keep the action going, so that the slow ones end up at a massive disadvantage and the behaviour eventually dies down.

You're the GM, man. Stop giving yourself bad rules.

That's the neat thing - you don't.

It's just a bunch of names. If you want to put effort into it, I'd recommend integrating some new content from books that came after, but if not it can be done on the fly.

You forget Pathfinder already has, in canon, a perfectly valid alternative which already appeared in one streamed game:
The Desk of Many Things, by Jason Bulmahn.

Despite being a long time drow fan, I am also a subscriber to the spotlight philosophy.

> Players explore the world casting a spotlight wherever they go. Everything further out than the spotlight is just an outline.

Drows have not been in the spotlight in the last... is it 6 years for me? I think it's 6 years. So, I don't expect this to affect me (sadly). If the spotlight is pushed to drow... I will likely conform it to expectations. I have drow statblocks, I have drow as a homebrewed playable ancestry with 15+ feats. I have the means. Or maybe, if Paizo publishes quality stuff that's better than my own (which happens often enough) I'll just use theirs.

It's a decision that I can push to when it's relevant, and evaluate on the basis of what I'm given.

What changes would you like to see for the alchemist?

I do have a couple.

1. Like the inventor, the crafting skill auto increases as you level. This is kinda a given on the reason why.

2. A reason why.

Alchemists do not use Crafting. I would like them to.

Interesting read. Does this mean the core dragons are now hardwritten as casters? Or does the mirage dragon have both regular casting and innate casting, thus only losing a portion of it when gaining Momentum?

When I was running a Warpriest, a very very common thing for me was to backhand fiends into the ground with Holy Castigation / Cast Down. It's a two-action trip that almost always succeeds and does not affect MAP. Follow with a Strike, let others gang up, and just generally wreck the little sh*t.

Moving my success chances from [low value] to [very high value] was usually worth the action, and as for the spell slots it can be a lv1 Heal and still work fine. Definitely more flexible than preparing a Harm, and Castigation will see use in 99% of campaigns anyways.

I have found this one and this one and this one and this one.

Back in early release, I called it the middle child problem.

People who had been through multiple editions adapted quickly. Complete newbies who picked up the system for the first time did fine. But people coming from PF1 or 5e with no other background struggled horribly, and died quick and helpless deaths while ramming their face against any wall imaginable.

Shed your old assumptions and play the game as is. It's the only way to move forward.

It also made an agile greatsword with the holy trait when asked to make Excalibur, and built an "Inquisitor class" which was basically a 5e subclass with pf1 mechanics in the features.

Leave poor ChatGPT alone, it's drunk.

Ah yes. The joys of new technology.

In this case, the new technology being spambots that can post a word salad that at least on the surface appears to be somewhat coherent and possibly relevant. Of course the only thing that it actually adds to the conversation is a link to an external commercial website.

Started seeing this on the sub as well. Luckily our filter seems to be holding well enough - they might be getting smarter at fooling humans, but they're still too dumb to understand what the rules are.

Hi, I'm Troy McLure. You might remember me from such alchemical related guides like the Sceptical Chymist and PubAlchem.

I've recently gone through the newly released items, and while the reviews there are better followed elsewhere, I wanted to give my two cents to Paizo about a few that I found either confusing, conflicting, or just slightly off.

The definite:
Living leaf wave doesn't define its bonus value; breathtaking vapor doesn’t have a stage duration; choleric contagion says “the first time during per round the victim succeeds at an attack roll”, which reads jumbled.

The maybes:
A few items (egg cream fizz, soothing toddy, warding punch, diplomat's charcuterie, phantom roll, sprite apple, mender's soup, tracker's stew, cinnamon seers, ginger chew, and scholar's drop) all provide nonscaling +1 item bonuses, making them quickly irrelevant. For some, like Phantom Roll, that can be fine... but for many of these, it feels like they were meant to be circumstance bonuses (like the Colorful Coatings). Usually, when I read “a bonus to saves against a specific school of magic” or “a bonus to checks made for this specific action subtype” I expect to see it as a circumstance bonus, at least in previously published material. Especially at higher levels, when you're expected to have that bonus already. Could be worth a review, just to make sure you guys meant it this way.

The "probably fine but just checking":
Lv4 Mournful and Wyrmhide Fury Cocktails feel a little underpowered, but the higher level versions are amazing. Bone dreadnought is similarly a very good lv10 item, but requires a lv12 item as fuel to be used, which could be an issue.

The "please stop":
Can't help but see new incapacitation items. It’s a great trait for balancing spells and I am all in favour of it, but these items have static level and no success effect, so there is no positive benefit to it in this context. Even on items with multiple level stages, like gearbinder oil, the large level gaps wrecks the item hard.

All in all not that many issues considering the size of the chapter, and love the book. Thank you for all the good work!

As someone whose only chance to ever make something that vaguely resembles art is to use AI generators, I support this stance.
I'm no artist, let's not kid ourselves.

You're looking for Blaster Caster: the Discerning Archmage's Guide to Small Ball by The Magic Sword.

I don't have a copy yet, and I'm waiting to read all the lore bits, but a friend shared the lore entry for the Elixirs section and I could feel a primal sense of alchemical fear, awe, and the instinct to scream.

Purepurin is my spirit animal. I hope she's fine.

There's a few good items which I imagine will be added to the "staple" repertoire of most alchemists, and processed foods are an interesting new category (basically they affect exploration activities, which is a new niche), but I wouldn't say anything is exceedingly over the top. Skunk bomb might be the top of it - and a huge chunk of the bestiary is straight up immune to it.

In short, Alchemist hasn't gotten more powerful, it got more versatile. Which is expected from any new item release.

Fun fact: 90% of the most powerful alchemical items in the game are from the CRB. Because the CRB has the least situational stuff. I'm ok with that.

If you need something quick, I have a >>Basic Ancestry Doc<< for it. It's based on the old PF1 drow feats with rebalancing based on existing ancestries.
All free. I'd rate the quality as "middling", could be better if I expanded it. Controversy may vary.

I started writing a long post, but then I realised I was basically rewriting half the paragraphs I set down for the Skeptical Chymist.

At level 1-2, you should probably just try to cover a wide baseline and not focus on anything specifically. This is especially true for bomber, because as good as bombs can be, 1 point of splash will not help you do anything that Electric Arc (or a javelin) can't do better. Once you start hitting 3, then you're leaning more into specialties. Have a look under Sample Preparations.

Normally I start setting up reagents for quick alchemy around level 5, when you get to be more efficient with reagents. Could be earlier if you have a real wide array of formulas.

Called it months ago. It's the logical consequence after WotC showed 0 support for human GMs in years - they need a game with a GM, but being a GM in 5e sucks, so let's automate them.

Whether they're any good, we'll see.

My guide on Converting D&D5 Characters and Races is ready.

Primarily is is full of this is the closet Pathfinder thing to that Dungeons and Dragons thing. The mechanics are different enough that actual conversion will be hard in a lot of cases. But this just gives people the right names and places to look.

Feedback is welcome.

Yoink.

(although I really wouldn't recommend Changeling for Changeling. If you're open to recommending 3pp, Mark is working on Doppelgangers which should come out later in the year)

Discussion thread for the Sceptical Chymist is on.

Also, I found Fantastic Snares and Where to Place Them as well as Polyarmoury, a guide to snares and one to weapons, both by Wealthbeyondmeasure (discord). I don't think they have a discussion thread, but they are pretty good (and arguably the first could be a niche ranger guide).

Haven't done the announcement yet, I'll probably refine a couple things and put it up early in the weekend, but...

The Sceptical Chymist is the most updated Alchemist guide out there. And you're the first to see it (after peer review from other Alchemist veterans).

I'll have a discussion thread for it soon.

Would probably be better to plug /r/Pathfinder_RPG in favor of /r/Pathfinder2e.

It's not a plug, the event was created by the r/pathfinder2e subreddit team. r/pathfinder_rpg is not involved.

-mod of r/pathfinder_rpg

*Scribbles alchemical notes*

The good news is this looks familiar. The bad news is you guys were this close to doing the 2/6/12 scaling...

On the other hand, Gunslinger is a full 20-level class in second edition, and I think that's pretty neat.

Thalaine wrote:

Might be worth putting the level of the item into the document so that people can easily see when they are able to make them.

I've thought about it, but I don't want to get *too* detailed. There's a fine line between commentary/analysis and copyright infringement. :D It's one reason I link to Nethys for everything; they're entitled to all the details.

I've updated the doc (link in first post). Not a lot of new content, but I made a major formatting change to get rid of some headers that proved to be distracting in a Table of Contents framework.

There's no infringement there, thanks to the OGL - you can get pretty heavily detailed as long as you're not charging money, and even if you do you can still use most of it.

I'd recommend a read of the licensing if you are interested in knowing the exact limits.

I'm writing the Guide in LibreOffice, which can export to PDF. I'm using their hybrid PDF format... it has a copy of the original .odt embedded, so you can open the PDF in LibreOffice and edit it there. I don't like Google Docs as much as LibreOffice and when I uploaded the .odt file Google made some formatting changes that looked not-great, so I just went PDF when I found out that all the hyperlinking I did still worked great in that format.

Oh sure the formatting is fine (could use some way to delimit a new item, as the paragraphs "if you're an alchemist" and such look almost like a new item at times), what I mean is if someone wants to get the updated version they have to go find the new link. Maybe you could ensure that the link always directs people to the updated version, and leave a history of older versions in the drive?

I just use Docs for PubAlchem because it's easier to edit when I bounce between computers :P

Good to see a new guide pick up, the only other one I knew of stopped updating a while ago :) I like having multiple points of view out there.

Might be difficult to update in a pdf format, however.

as for TV... join me and a few others in our collective fear :P the entire item guide subcommunity is torn between hype and horror.

It seems like it got reprinted, but it lost its Twin trait. Honestly I liked it better before - at least it pretends to encourage having multiple knives.

For reference, these were a line of virtual products. No print. The concept was to make the VTT version in-house and sell the PDF in addition to that - but now that VTT versions are made at a higher quality by third parties, the line is redundant.

Lollerabe wrote:

The line about the class being pretty good if it was released as it were concerns me a bit. That was not my impression whatsoever. Had it been released in its playtest version it would've been close to unplayable for me personally.

Same. I did not enjoy the class as presented, and I said as much in my feedback, plus the vast majority of Forum comments gave it bad reviews.

I'm curious about what ranges of specific feedback they received from the surveys.

Probably more intended towards the fact that most of the negative feedback was on damage. Which was deserved.

That said, Logan has decent history. Investigator, Magus, Monk, and Sorcerer turned out mostly well. I'm open to seeing what happens...

MaxAstro wrote:

Edit: I'm also a little disappointed this probably means they will be two action. One action blasts was a nice feel for the class.

yes, this, PLEASE paizo stick to one action blasts,

A one-action melee blast that's comparable to a martial attack (but scales without runes or weird elemental mixups), and a two-action ranged version, both using Con-based strikes with the attack (but not manipulate) trait?

I can live with a variable action simil-cantrip basic blast.

Hmm. Little sad to see basic impulse attacks go away, they were very Avatar-ish... but if the weapon feat plays out well and we get some short-mid range impulses, it could still work out well.

I can't wait to see what comes out the other end!

I would like to turn on a very noisy engine to signal my clamor over a technology guide.

Hmm. Let's see...

Fields:

1) the fractional reagent ability from Field Discovery is gone entirely. This is crucial to class versatility, and especially to mutagenist who relies on long term duration buffs. While extending triple products early is a good move, this can backfire.

2) extending chirurgeon's specialty to all non-mutagens is extremely powerful. So is giving them essentially Medic archetype. Looks like a huge buff (which don't get me wrong is kinda warranted), but perhaps too far. Also, if you do intend to keep "all non-mutagens", keep in mind that there is almost no difference between having 4 Bravo's and 6 Bravo's in a party of 4. See point 1.

3) bomber still has very little damage pre-3. Combined with low reagents (despite the 3x aid), this maintains the current issues. The lv5 ability is nifty, but invalidates the lv1 version. I'd rather give it two different abilities.

4) mutagenist looks like a massive nerf tbh. Not only you removed flashback, you added an ability you will never (or close to never) use, because nobody drinks a mutagen during a fight (due to how long they last). Having a buff for one round is... just not worth the action cost here. Having two mutagens at lv5 is good, but having three mutagens starts getting too harsh as the penalties will start eroding into the benefits. Diminishing returns here.

5) lv5 toxicologist dealing energy damage is interesting. I like that it's morning prep only, but at the same time I'm worried there might be little value in keeping them poison.

Features:

1) lv1 powerful alchemy is nice, extending it to all items is nice. We're definitely raising the power level here but hey, it can be good.

2) I like volatile alchemy. I might recommend the DC and damage be based on the item's level (after adding the additive) but other than that it looks fun. Needs the action icon.

3) let's do perpetual all at once. I like the streamlining, I've done it the same way, but keep an eye on the levels. Some specialties have more selection than others. I used 2/6/12 rather than 1/5/11 in order to include sinew-shock and a few others. The 1/hr limitation is interesting and certainly discourages elixir of life spam, but the Common limit feels like it's just sitting there.

4) master in weapons. lol, should've known it was coming. Yeah, this doesn't help for the slew of reasons already highlighted over the years, not last the fact that alchemical bombs do not benefit from this as much as weapons. If you want to bury bomber as an option in favour of melee builds, this is the way - if you want bomber to work out, look elsewhere.

Feats:

1) Quick hands definitely looks like the strongest feat in the alchemist's list. I don't see this being an option - it's either built into the chassis or removed. Note that I realise it only works for the short term elixirs like Cat's Eye (and not 90% of the elixirs, which last forever and are used out of combat), but is still clutch when those are needed. Would take it over most lv6 feats no doubt.

2) fizzy feats! love the idea, and it helps ranged builds a lot, but again we are pretty high on the power level. If you want to set it as a new standard, you'll need to remake a lot of the current feats in order to keep them relevant.

Overall:

It's a general buff with strong emphasis on the mid-high levels which oddly manages to make the class a little stiffer. Chirurgeon is likely the favourite in this version, bomber falls, and additives get a ton of usability which I like, but the early levels still seem to suffer from flexibility issues.
There's a lot of good concepts here but the fact that most of the new introductions are "higher standards" means you're wading into a large-scale remake. Not sure if this is where you want to go.

I've never even thought of putting these up because they're not exactly guides in the classic sense of the idea, but someone mentioned I should, so... Here's a few outliers. Up to you to see if they're worth adding:

1) The Miniature Compass is an interactive database collecting, organising and classifying talismans, fulus, gadgets, spellhearts, and catalysts. In short, all those consumables which tend to fly under the radar because they're hard to read through.

2) Featbending, a Kineticist feat tool built on a similar concept. It helped playtesters select, group and filter the feats to compare and examine them better, and it can do so again - I am likely to expand it to the final version of the class once it hits.

3) Alchemist Made Up to the Mark, an errata-style alteration to alchemist to make it more newbie-friendly and patch up a couple early level issues. This I'm kinda iffy about.

A year later and I'm sure many of these have further updated, but I'm not checking without some sign that updates are actually happening.

The dates are important since it can tell users at a glance what books, and therefore players options, the guide likely includes.

PubAlchem is routinely updated almost every month, or at least a few days after AoN's releases.

There's been a lot of good feedback on the Kineticist, and I'm not going to shy from it. I have held back because I wanted the time to properly test, run, experience, and examine the class as is, but it's finally time to sit comfortably, grab a drink, and go through a nice old classic wall of text.

First of all, a note on the good elements of the class. The flavour is great, and the idea of developing it with a mix of elemental strikes and active features definitely feels good thematically. Kineticist feels like a martial with a strong area of effect component and that's a good place to have it, if maybe with a bit more wiggle room, and the idea of rejecting spells is something I agree: Impulses are a new, exclusive feature, and should not be forcefully turned into spellcasting despite how close they might appear. However, there are some definite pain points which I would like to explore.

To do so, I will organise this thread in sections: the first will deal with the elemental feats, the selectable features, and the elemental distinctions in general; the second will go over chassis, core features, and those elements that unite all kineticists regardless of personal build; and the third will go into more detail about the general balancing and powering of the class.

As a note of favour for the reader, I recommend having the kineticist feat summaries opened on the side in order to focus on the relevant sections. As for general reference on experience, I have personally played a lv18 Universal Kineticist (to test blasting and overflow) and a lv3 Earth Kineticist (for a melee build test). I was not a major 1e kineticist fan, I did not play Legendary Kineticist, and while I like Con, I am neutral on Burn.

-------------Book One: Water
This book will focus on the more fluid section of the class, which is the the feats, because how they fit together and within a build will strongly determine playstyle, and the different elements chosen will alter the flow of gameplay.

First of all, I have been amazed by the amount of active feats in this class. Almost everything came as a new way to use elements directly in combat, either via auras, blasts, powers, or utility. I love that (my sheet loved it a little less as it was very hard to find the right actions mid play, but that's lv18 for you). However, there's several issues here.

In terms of utility, the Kineticist is more varied than I could make sense of. We range from at-will invisibility at level 6 to the power of raising the water level in a 20-foot burst... at level 18. One lv1 class feat allows the user to cast Light, a lv8 one to buff everyone's speed and damage. It's... confusing at the very least. I did love a few of these, especially those that seem to use the elements in new ways (namely: Whispers on the Wind, Clear as Air, Stepping Stones, Inner Flames, Veil of Mists, Voice of Elements), but I feel like everything else is either underwhelming or not very interesting. A few are clearly needed, such as the one granting people the ability to breathe water, and I'm not against the idea of using existing spells when they can save pagecount (this guy will need enough paper as it is). If anything, I could see a few of these feats allowing Kineticists to cast a short selection of innate spells, perhaps on the lines of those aasimar/tiefling feats that grant two casts per day out of three spells. Or just a selection of thematic cantrips for the low level feats.

Auras have been a mixed bag. Notably, we almost TPK'd to Winter's Clutch during our low-level playtest, because it was impossible to get away from it (our hydrokineticist got entangled in a web. Don't ask me about that day's rolls). The supportive or beneficial auras have been insanely good at all level of play, but anything aggressive felt like it strongly required the lv8 Aura Shaping feat - not a good design when the first aggressive auras show up at lv1. More on this in Book Two.

The Guardians/Summons are all amazing, even the fire one which doesn't do much. I like that it exists as an option, I just wish Fire impulses could take better advantage of it. More on this in Book Three. There's also a few shapechanging feats which I loved thematically, but were generally quite weird - the Fire one lasts one round when you get it, and burns one round just to cast it; the lowest Earth one gives you a new AC, but it's worse than what you'd have. Some have action economy benefits, but Sustain attached to it, and so on. I'd love to turn into an elemental version of myself, but it has to be worth it.

The Walls... are very uneven. This mostly emerges from the fact that the wall spells themselves are very uneven, and that Stone, arguably one of the best, has no Overflow. I think giving Wind some extra benefits and allowing Fire to scale should be at least required.

The healing is.... actually nice, in the fact that each element has its own spin on them. I could use a Fire healing that enhances people's attack or mobility (it's not like Earth isn't a combat heal already).

In general, and taking off from the last line about Fire, I like that each element seems to be trying to do similar things in different ways and with different benefits and outcomes. I think that's a good direction and I especially like that not all feats in the same element feel the same - I can read the feats from one element and feel that they're different from another element, but I can't say "this is the speed element" or "this is the hit point element". There's a hint of a good mix that still maintains distinction, and that is good flow - it just needs some enriching and rebalancing.

-------------Book Two: Earth
This book will ground us in the core elements of the class, namely the proficiency chassis, essential features, and early diversification that all kineticists share, to provide a solid foundation on which we can build.

This of course means that we will start with the core foundation of the class - the traits which govern its abilities. The first thing I noticed when I first opened up the playtest was that Kineticist abilities are based on strong exclusionary language - telling me what this thing is NOT, what it can NOT do, and what it does NOT allow. While I see the point in having impulses be neither spell nor strikes (I imagine because of multiclassing shenanigans, flurry of blows, spellstrike, and all that), it creates a lot of convolution. The Impulse trait having nested Manipulate also created some issues in game - my poor lv3 melee kineticist met a creature with AoO, which made me realise everything I could ever do, including basic attacks and raising my shield, provoked AoO. Not my greatest moment, I went down to a crit because I tried raising my shield (which interrupted the action, so I couldn't even block). I'm a lucky one.

The Overflow trait has been the subject of many discussions. Vanessa Hosking, in an interview with the Rulelord, compared it to a Swashbuckler's rythm of panache and finishers, and I generally agree for the most part - both classes are martial characters with a charge up that lets them do empowered attacks and can be burned off for a bigger impact effect. The primary difference I would note, however, is that Swashbuckler gains panache by doing something useful, while Gathering Elements is purely an action cost. There's a long series of observation on Gather Elements and Overflow made by Gust_of_Wind, which... you can read if you have time... but the short end of the parts I agree with is that it's overpriced, overbearing, and overpresent. Every offensive action has it, 65/96 feats have it, it always costs a future action, and... Honestly, it's not worth it. In my high level test, I used overflow extensively. But I had the power of the Avatar on my side, and several feats dedicated to using action economy tricks to lessen its impact. It felt weak, but not crippling. On my lower level test, I never used it. I wanted to, especially for my shield block, but realised it would have crippled me, because I could do nothing without a gathered element.

In my mind, these two issues are one. These traits are too general to be that impactful. One option that I see is letting Kineticist have access to their elemental strikes at all times (and make them proper Strikes which do not provoke AoO nor get disabled mid-fight), and relegate Gather Element to a recharge function similar to how Magus's spellstrike needs to be reenabled; Another is to add some meaningful payoff to Gather Element, such as tempHP to Gather Earth, ranged manouvers for Gathering Air, stepping for Gathering Fire, and some sort of ally protection for Gathering Water because all I can come up with is Katara. These are just examples. As for the overbearing of Overflow, that depends. If Gathering Elements can be meaningful and useful, then Overflow might just be slapped on everything, but personally I like the idea of it being placed on some feats which are exceptionally powerful, and letting most feats go without. Let's have frequent elemental uses, and then one big boom moment. Then we can decouple some traits, adding Manipulate to most impulses but not all so that there is a slight chance to play this class around AoOs. I believe we discussed the rock shield issue back when Parry was being smoothed.

(Also, as a side note, Overflow as a name doesn't really evoke an endpoint to me, more of a swell. Perhaps we should call it the Exhaust trait? Or something else that evokes the idea of your element getting burned off. Who knows)

Next in line is what you always feared, the key ability score. Let's start with reminding everyone that I like the thematic effect of Constitution representing your ability to withstand elemental forces coursing through you. That's cool. However, if your memory extends even further back... Logan, remember the Investigator playtest? At the time, I told you that I enjoyed the idea of an Int-based martial, but that Int wasn't doing enough for the class. So let me tell you now that I enjoy the idea of a Con-based martial, but that Con isn't doing enough for the class. No judgment, but I gotta call it out.

I believe it's possible to balance Kineticist so that Con-based attacks are not necessary. There's been some discussion in my group that Con might help determine the benefits of Gather Element, but I prefer a different interpretation (because it's easier to write, nothing more): Allow any kineticist to exclude people from their aura based on their Con, starting from level one, and use Shaping Aura as an optional but powerful high level feat that expands range only. That solves the low level aura problem mentioned in Book One and the mandatoreity of the feat in one fell swoop, while also having a powerful, important effect that reinforces Con as the key ability score.

Now we can look at the class features. The flexible feats are amazing and lovely, but I'm not married to the idea too hard and would understand if they were removed. The Adapt Element line, however, feels a little vague. It's basically elemental Prestidigitation - doesn't really do much, and is even counterproductive at times. Why is gathering from the environment slower than gathering from your gate? Why would someone ever do that? If anything, I would love a Kineticist that gathers elements freely when their element is particularly powerful - a fire kineticist fighting in the middle of a volcano should be at its peak, and so is an air kineticist in the middle of a storm. I guess a metal kineticist should find himself in a dwarven forge or in some sort of top-reinforced fortress to get the benefit, but you get my drift. Make me interact with the element.

On that topic, there is the matter of elemental resistance. Resistance to fire is solid, common, and classic... but everything else is so niche that it barely figures. What's the point? Sure, it'll be cool when it comes up, but I'd rather have Earth give me resistance to forced movement or something likely to come up than something that will come up maybe once in a lifetime. Again, make the element matter.

Finally I would like to talk about Gates. I played as both single and universal gate - and for the latter, I think it's great. Having flexible feats I can use to alter my build is great in the context of an ongoing campaign, and access to all the feats was a nice challenge to face and allowed me an amazing level of control and choice. I love it as it is, and in fact I could see the flexible feats as the Universalist's specialty. Single gate... was less awesome. In short, I did not feel like a specialist, just pointed one way. While I like that dual gate has a bonus feat from each (and possibly access to hybrid elements as their specialty), I don't think a third feat was enough to trade off the flexibility. Part of this is probably playtest related as we have less feats than final, but somehow I feel like dedicated gate needs a lv1 feature that makes it feel like a master. Stoke Element comes to mind as an easily resizeable solution.

All in all, the concept of the chassis is solid, but a lot within it needs to be readjusted and tuned. The class is extremely flexible on paper, but stiff as a rock in play, and as good as the concept is, the foundations are shaky.

-------------Book Three: Fire
This book will face the burning question of whether the kineticist actually delivers on its fantasy, as well as delve more specifically into why that may be and on how these assumptions can be used to provide a hopefully more engaging (and spectacular) result.

I will not, however, begin with the feedback. Instead, we are going to take a trip down memory lane all the way to my early conversion projects, when I was happily trailblazing (because it's Book Three, get it? Fire?) my way through unguided calculations and rebalancing, and especially monster crafting. Most of my early work was mediocre, but it did teach me a lot - and one concept that I ended up using over and over since then was the turn budget. A monster can be as overpowered as I want it to be, but so long as it is limited in what it does during its turn, all's fine (or close to). And action costs were an amazing form of control and power enhancement - giving creatures action-efficient abilities, or extra reactions, did wonders for an otherwise underwhelming creature.

I want to bring this up not because I'm going to sell you a monster, but because I think it's a valuable lesson we need to apply to Kineticist. When playing a kineticist, I feel the turn was not spent right. Overflow actions, most of all, feel like there is very little for my time, because they're in most cases 2+1 action activities which deliver a very underwhelming effect - an effect I can multiply via area and use near at will over the course of the day, but which is still incredibly underwhelming in a turn by turn basis. In my previous feedback thread, Psychic Impressions, I bemoaned how psychic felt too faint and low-impact because of its attempt to play a long-term impact character which just never really built up enough. The result was eventually a caster which nobody denies has definite impact, which was a major shift, and while I'm not after that kind of bang I am hoping it will be worth the bucks.

In terms of offensive abilities, the kineticist is underwhelming all around. The overflow impulses are extremely weak, comparable in raw damage with a 2-action Champion strike sequence (however the accuracy multiplier here is lower, because champion strikes against AC while we're looking at saves vs DCs, making kineticist blasts weaker than that). The basic strikes, while amazing for switch-hitting, have no inherent damage amplifiers, again presenting the Champion as the closest comparison. The class as it is is not a very strong attacker, neither as a martial nor an area blaster, and while it can do both and be very flexible, the value of switch-hitting does not come up enough to justify it (especially due to the many ability score requirements). In addition, the scaling on many abilities is so slow that it might as well not be there, marking the ability as low-level only. Aerial Boomerang, Storm Spiral, Ferocious Cyclone and The Shattered Mountain Weeps are the only abilities to cap at more than 2.2 damage per level (our chosen threshold of champion attacks), while Tremor, Rolling Boulder, Flame Eruption and Slippery Sleet cap at less than 1.5/lv. Now, sure, some of these add status effects, but is it truly worth that much? Is the damage even a contribution at that point? Are my two plus one actions as a lv20 character truly worth 24 points of damage and a square of dangerous terrain?

I say no. My two plus one actions as a lv20 character, if I'm looking at area damage against a save, are worth 70 damage worth of fireball, or maybe 82 from a Meteor Swarm. The third action is likely going to be sipping a cocktail or rubbing some lotion, because that's enough explosions to get a tan out of.

But of course we're neither casters nor pure damage dealers, so we should look for what we're good at. I just wish I knew what that is. From what I can read of the Kineticist, the pattern I have is very low damage, Reflex save (on a slightly lower DC), and then Stunned 1... with maybe a push or a shove attached to it. That last bit sounds like a saving grace - weak, faint, but something. I say prop up the juice to a decent amount and then focus on this flavour.

I mentioned in Book Two that I would like to see Overflow become less omnipresent. If so, then we can start to see kineticist impulses as low (but meaningful!) damage accompanied by status effects, with perhaps a bit more of a save spread, and overflow impulses as the showy stuff which make your turn shine. I'd actually prefer if the relationship between overflow and gather were reversed - giving a specific clause that your element is gathered only until combat ends would make Kineticists start the fight with only their strikes, Gather for more powerful attacks, and then fall back down to strikes until they Gather again. And yes, if this is what you want, what you really really want, we could make a feat that lets you burn hit points to Gather as a free action or something. As I said, neutral on that one as long as it's not mandatory.

One more thing. I mentioned in Book One that I liked the distinction between elements in the different ways of doing similar things, and that no element was easily summarisable. I'd like to walk that back one step - elements cannot be entirely summarised, but do have trends. Air has a lot of mobility, flight, and illusions. Earth has a lot of self defense, while Water has some big moments on ally defense (you were also thinking of Katara, I see). Fire is not the "firepower" element, which I like, but has some interestingly aggressive support abilities. I like seeing each list having a certain prevalence for some aspects, but I'd like to recommend one in particular: allow Fire to have more single-action activities than other elements (perhaps as Flourishes). Rapid fire is a good niche to add, especially since it seems to struggle in terms of... honestly almost everything, but combining agile low-damage strikes with a mix of quick flourishes and larger overflows could be a winning formula.

As a last word, the general feats seem all honestly good, and the utility gathering feats (cycling blast, gather amalgamation) were all insanely useful. I expect these to get some changes if my improved gathering idea gets through, but I take it mostly as confirming that the cost of Gather really impacts the class in a significant way.

These are my cabbages. Feel free to add your own thoughts and contributions below, and remember to play nice with each other. There's no war in Ba Sing Se.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if you spend 3 actions you should get 50% more damage.

Very unreasonable. Actions have different values - the corresponding amplification for adding a third action would be about +15%. Most 1-action spells are overtuned in this matter, but three-action activities tend to follow the maths.

Ediwir wrote:

[talky-man do mathy stuff]

Yeah, it's not an accuracy problem, it's a payoff-when-you-do-hit problem.

I can see why they shouldn't be balanced like top-tier spells, and that's fine, they're still at-will abilities, but between the increased action cost of overflow/gather and the general principle of turn output, I'd expect at least something close.

Then again, I haven't even started talking about the utility features.

It's less about a matter of landing the hit, because as you pointed out lv18 has class DC = spell DC, and more about the fact that Kineticist impulses are not balanced like spells, but like martials.

Spells, specifically area spells with basic saves, tend to deal about 3.5 damage per level and act on saving throws vs DCs. A high level martial using two actions to Strike will deal about 2.2 damage per level before damage amplifiers (such as rage, finishers, or sneak attack) and act on strike vs AC.

Kineticist impulses roll between 1.9 and 2.5 damage per level, and act on saves vs spell DC. It's basically the wrong track, and closer to casting spells of 4 levels below your cap. I get that it's a matter of unlimited resources, but if there is one thing we learned from Psychic is that balancing on the whole day rather than a few turns does not feel good at all.

I'll add the note that Rage of Elements would not be the first book to add new familiar features to benefit more characters.