After reading the title of this thread, I can't help but be reminded of a certain sentient owl who was asked a very similar question in regards to a tootsie roll pop. And his answer remains valid to this day: the world may never know.
Now that I think about it, another good idea for an alternate class option would be to give the witchwarper the 'Adaptive Strike' class feature from the evolutionist (perhaps replacing infinite worlds and unfold existences). This would give the witchwarper a nice consistent weapon, and also plays into the classes ability to warp reality (including itself)
So here is an interesting idea: given the fact that ghouls and vampires are now 'moderately' accepted in the pact worlds (mostly due to Eox), I decided to write up a fun little adventure idea that any players (and DMs) can take full advantage of.
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I'd very much like to know if their are any good witchwarper options.What does your heart tell you. I like to be an optimist. :)
I'd very much like to know if their are any good witchwarper options. Also, how many new themes do we have and what do they do (just broad strokes of course).
It was stated that the class is having some changes to make bookkeeping a little less complicated for it, to what degree we'll have to wait and see. Personally love classes that have resource management in combat, it's a cool in between compared to the usual x per day classes or the nothing consumes resources groups. But I do sympathize, I've been where you are numerous times, where the stars just don't quiiite align for a class to be a good fit. I hear ya. I honestly think my biggest hope is that we get more 'alternate racial options' that can be used for a more generalized purpose (essentially something like the 'Fey Thoughts' ability from 1st edition Pathfinder). Even if it's something small like trading out a racial ability to just get a +2 bonus on a particular skill would be good if such an option could be applied across all races (or most of them).
Now that I think about it, a good 'biohacker' alternate class option would be something that gives up all instances of the 'fields of study' class feature and maybe even minor biohacks in order to focus on 'self-experimentation'.It sounds like what you're describing is the Evolutionist class that's coming out in this book, so - good news! :D I'll admit that I'm not a huge fan of the 'evolutionist' class as it stands right now. I realize that this is just a personal preference, but classes like the Vanguard and Solarian don't really appeal to me due to the fact that they have a lot of moving parts, and it seems like the evolutionist is following this trend. Other classes like operative, soldier, and precog are pretty straight-forward in terms of simplicity, and while I know some players might enjoy 'complex' classes, my hope is that every class will have alternate options to help simplify them a little without completely tanking their power.
Now that I think about it, a good 'biohacker' alternate class option would be something that gives up all instances of the 'fields of study' class feature and maybe even minor biohacks in order to focus on 'self-experimentation'. From there, the biohacker would get to choose a lot of static personal enhancements instead (like maybe gaining energy resistances, increased move speed, improved vision, gills, etc). This would simplify the biohacker a great deal while still offering players a lot of options to customize their character with crazy experimentations (at the cost of biohack versatility of course). I honestly hope we get to see something like this in the book.
I'm really hoping we get a lot of 'alternate racial traits' in this book. The ability to 'customize' and switch out a lot of racial benefits would really go a long way in helping out the more obscure races. In addition, I do hope the Envoy and Witchwarper get a little love too (I'm mostly crossing my fingers that we'll get a good replacement for the 'infinite worlds' ability lol).
Excellent stories, both of them. I'd happily read more if you have the time to post them. Thank you for the tales, bard. Here is my latest story:
I finally finished it, and I think everyone here would enjoy reading it. I hope you all enjoy :)
I really do enjoy when archetypes are designed with the idea of possibly stacking with another archetype. It really allows players to add a lot of versatility, and approach a class from an entirely new angle. It's definitely a habit that I hope to see a lot more often.
I agree. The ability for me to prove that the eidolon is an instantaneous conjuration effect just isn't there (I basically need a dev to state otherwise at this point because instantaneous duration effects cannot be dismissed...and I have no way proving that the ability to dismiss the eidolon is a separate effect that is just granted through the eidolon ability). I appreciate all the help guys, and thanks for your patience.
Hey Mark, I have to ask: Does an eidolon function in an antimagic field? I apologize for bringing up this question if it has already been asked, but the issue has come up in my current adventure path and I'd really like to find an answer. I've also posted this question on the forums: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sxsw?What-happens-when-an-eidolon-enters-an In the thread I list my reasons as to why I believe the eidolon doesn't wink out of existence in an ant-magic field, but if you could help shed some light on the subject that would be great.
Okay, this issue has come up in my current adventure path in Kingmaker, and I really need to find an answer. Basically the argument boils down to this: does the eidolon 'wink' out of existence when it enters an antimagic field or not? My argument is that it does not, because the eidolon is brought into existence using a 'ritual' with an instantaneous effect (I'm assuming the ritual MUST be a conjuration effect because u are literally 'summoning' a creature from another plane). Therefore, the eidolon follows the similar rules to a planar ally (basically a planar ally would NOT wink out of existence in an antimagic field because it is not tethered to the material plane by magic). Furthermore, if you detect magic on the eidolon, from what I can tell...the eidolon would not register as a 'conjuration' effect (again, meaning that the eidolon is ACTUALLY there and not simply existing in that location because of a 'magical' effect). Therefore, if the eidolon doesn't register as 'magical' when u detect magic on it...how can it be effected by an 'anti-magic field' if there is NO MAGIC on the eidolon? Keep in mind that like planar ally, eidolon's are not effected by dispel magic effects (which is essentially what antimagic field does). So, if the eidolon is immune to dispel magic effects...how can antimagic field work on it? Yes, I know the eidolon is listed as being a 'summoned creature', but it would appear that it is a summoned creature that with 'no duration' (which would then mean that the 'summoning' of this summoned creature is an instantaneous effect...which would then imply that antimagic field CANNOT effect it). Please, any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
Well, I'm hoping for Antipaladin archetypes as usual. Specifically archetypes that deal with trading out smite good and cruelties for other bonuses (such as gaining the barbarian 'Rage' ability along with 'Rage Powers'). Some Ninja archetypes would also be very welcome as well. Or....how about an Antipaladin archetype that trades out 'fiendish boon' for a 'Black Blade' (like the one gained from the Magus archetype). I mean, come on...who doesn't like the idea of having an evil blade with a mind of its own? Tis clearly much more practical than a silly little ring (just make sure the hobbits don't steal it) ;)
Succubus in a grapple...the only way to die :P
One of my favorite things about Pathfinder has always been the archetypes. I love being able to trade out certain abilities in order to give my character more flavor, power, or at the very least make them more unique. However, even after all the books paizo has released, there are still some classes that are in DESPERATE need of more archetypes (at least in my opinion): Samurai, ninja, antipaladin, sorcerer, and witch (just to name a few), and I'm sure we would all certainly love to see more archetypes included for the classes in the Advanced Class Guide as well. So tell me everyone, what do you think? What kind of archetypes would you like to see in the future? For me, I think I'm mostly looking forward to more Antipaladin (or even paladin) archetypes. Perhaps something that can turn you into a vampire (or maybe an archetype for a wizard/sorcerer/arcanist that turns you into a lich). Perhaps a samurai archetypes that has access to ki, or an antipaladin archetype that sacrifices smite good for barbarian Rage. Please feel free to post some of your thoughts/suggestions as well (and who knows, maybe paizo will consider the idea of printing this book somewhere down the road).
So, after reading some of these comments, I'm afraid I must agree: I now despise Herolab! As such, I will be sure to log it away with all the other things I despise, such as the calculator, car, cell phone, and easy-bake oven. CURSE TECHNOLOGY FOR TRYING TO MAKE MY LIFE EASIER!!! HOW DARE IT TRY TO CRIPPLE MY PRECIOUS LITTLE BRAIN!!!
Duskblade, I'm glad I didn't try to grapple YOUR succubus, that would be...difficult? Difficult...or do you mean 'fun'? ;)
Ya know, all this talk about a succubus in a grapple really has me wanting to make a succubus barbarian with the following rage powers... No Escape (cause, ya know, we dont' want them getting away) Swift Foot (For those with a fetish) Savage Dirty Trick (Because one can only imagine what kind of trick this would be) Reckless Abandon (In case she wants to get wild) Animal Fury (For those REALLY kinky moments, and its also a prerequisite for the next rage power) Savage Jaw (Because if a succubus isn't grappling with her mouth, she isn't doing it right) Smasher (Because ignoring an object's 'hardness' is a VERY powerful thing) Knockdown (Because sometimes position is key, and being on top of a prone target is a VERY dominat--er...I mean advantageous position) Groundbreaker (Or, as I like to call it: dropping it like its hot) Come and Get Me (Because who doesn't like a 'tease that aims to please') Auspicious Mark (Because a tattoo on the lower back is pretty much required) Body Bludgeon (Because I imagine a succubus would be very skilled with this) Breathtaker (For all those 'naughty' enemies who think they can resist) [Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that the 'extra rage powers' feat will definitely be required] Also, the succubus must have the 'savage barbarian' archetype. After all, we cannot underestimate the benefits of 'naked courage' now can we?
Ya know, for all the ladies out there, I'm surprised no one has come up with the inverse of this discussion... Incubus in a grapple!
I'm honestly starting to think that we just need to rename the pummeling style feat into 'FALCON PUNCH!'
Well, after going over some of the new features in the ACG, I finally stumbled across a little feat known as Pummeling Style. For those not aware, this is what it does... Pummeling Style-As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. Now at first I was like "hey, that's cool: clustered shots for unarmed strikes". However, after crunching a few numbers, I have to admit that this feat really does have me a little concerned, particularly when it comes to the amount of damage it is capable of doing. I recently started experimenting with the Sacred Fist warpriest archetype, and needless to say, when I was forced to figure out which combat style I needed to pick for my bonus feats, pummeling style was the first to come to mind. However, after testing out a couple of ideas (namely using things like Divine Power and Ki flurry to gain 2 additional attacks whenever I use Flurry of Blows), I discovered that my character was dishing out 9 attacks at level 20 (along with a boatload of damage as well). When combined with Pummeling Style, the character was easily dishing out 300-400 damage in a SINGLE strike (which is almost enough to kill...well, just about ANYTHING with one single shot!). Furthermore, because the feat states that if ANY of my attack rolls are confirmed critical hits, then the damage for the ENTIRE ATTACK is also a critical hit as well. So essentially, 300-400 damage suddenly becomes 600-800 damage...which pretty much one-shots anything in the game (for the time being, i'm assuming u can only use this feat with unarmed strikes, so a x2 crit range seems appropriate). I guess what I'm basically asking is...doesn't this seem a little excessive? I mean, granted I love a powerful character and all, but when you are able to deal out this much damage...it kinda seems a little absurd. Part of me is inclined to believe that this feat might get hit (or at least SHOULD get hit) with a nerf bat much like how Crane Style did, but I guess I wanted to see what other people thought first. As it stands, the fact that you are adding up damage from a +5 amulet of mighty fists, power attack (+12 for 20th level flurry), your strength modifier (which in my example was +8), and any of the other extra 1d6s from things like flaming and frost just seems a bit over the top, but if anyone feels otherwise, I'd sure like to know about it. Now granted, in my example I'm assuming that every attack hits, but even if we allow for miss-chance and all, the numbers still strike me as a little on the ridiculous side (but again, if anyone feels differently, feel free to post). In my opinion, the feat would be more balanced if a critical hit only applied to a single damage roll (so basically if you rolled 30 damage on a crit and you already had 100 damage from previous attacks, the crit would only add 60 to the total...making it 160 damage...rather than doubling the entire amount to 260 damage). But again, that's just me.
I would still argue that both abilities are meant to work exactly the same. The way I read is like this... If the bonded creature’s hit points are reduced to –5 or fewer (as in, if the bonded creature hit points are reduced by -5 damage or more) then this ability activates. Its fuzzy English, I know, but that seems to be the intent in my opinion (especially since they are basing it off of the life link oracle revelation). Also, keep in mind that -6 is 'fewer' then -5 (which is why I contend that the intent of this ability is to function exactly like the revelation).
Does the game need polishing? Sure. Are some of the older classes showing their age? Yes. Can the rules be simplified? Absolutely. While I will contend that the game is flawed in some small aspects, I do believe that the overall quality is still very good. I know a lot of people would like to do away with alignment restrictions, and I personally would like to see that as well. Also, I think many of us can agree that some of the monsters in the bestiary kinda need a power boost to keep up with the growing power creep. That being said, the system is still very solid. Oh sure, we could probably do away with a few of the useless class skills (seriously...do we really need profession, perform, or knowledge nobility), and also clean up a few of the more 'difficult to define' spells, but aside from a few tweaks, do we really need an overhaul yet? I don't really think so. Now granted, when Pathfinder 2.0 does come out, I will happily start buying the books. Honestly though, I'm kinda hoping Pathfinder Unchained starts polishing up a few of the problems. Either way, I have confidence in the staff at Paizo, and I hope they continue to give us even more of this wonderful game we love.
I swear you all are doing it wrong... Philter of Love + Syringe Spear = Seduction in a can. I like to call it the 'Cupid Solution' (and yes, that phrase is totally copyrighted, lol). After all, why waste time seducing when magic can do it for ya ;) Just remeber kids, a succubus isn't the only one who can 'work her magic' to get what she wants :P All it really takes is one little potion and a stick with a needle.
Hey everyone. While I'm not sure if a thread like this exists yet or not, I kinda felt compelled to start one anyway. Basically the goal of this particular thread is to showcase some really neat tricks that players have pulled off during their Pathfinder games. I'm not really asking for anyting game-breaking or cheesey, although if you'd like to list those things, that's perfectly fine as well. All I'm asking for is just some cool ideas/discoveries/or interactions that you guys have utilized during some of your campaigns. And so, with that in mind, allow me to start: Philter of Love + Syringe Spear = Instant lovey dovey Rod of Security = Immortality in a can Iressistable Dance + Quickened Icy Prison = Popsicle Express Fate's Favored + Stone of Good Luck = Winning Ablative Barrier + Mummification = Free DR without having DR Like I said before, feel free to jot down whatever you like: maybe you've discovered a cool item that very few people use, or perhaps you've found a great interaction between two particular spells. Whatever it might be, go ahead and list it, for I'm sure their are many in the community (myself included) who are eager to hear about some of the coolest pathfinder tricks that can be found inside the game. Thanks again. **Please note, things like bribing the GM with Candy and Beer does NOT qualify as a Pathfinder Trick...just sayin' ;)
Alright, I figure I might as well cheat and approach this subject from a different perspective: if you guys want the rogue to work, just be a Wyrwood. Why? Well because a Wyrwood is basically immune to all the rogue's weaknesses (construct traits will kinda do that for ya). Furthermore, the rogue's abilities compliment the Wyrwood a great deal (with evasion pretty much making the Wyrwood virtually immune to most kinds of magic attacks the require a save). In addition, the lack of a constitution score makes the rogue less MAD, and even helps to give the rogue a HUGE boost in hit points (if you took the favored class bonus on top of the toughness feat, you would basically have 22 hit points level 1). And finally, to top it all off, you are also small: benefits for stealth, extra accuracy, the whole nine yards. Of course, if anyone wants to 'theory-craft' about how to make the rogue better, then the answer is actually a lot more simpler then you think... Just make it easier for the rogue to make his opponents flat-footed. For example, if their were rogue feats that said something like "whenever a rogue with this talent makes an attack of opportunity or charges, her opponent is considered flat-footed". Or you could also go with something like "whenever a rogue with this talent confirms a critical hit, she may also apply sneak attack damage if she hasn't already done so." Anyway, just my 2 cents.
I often enjoy seeing all the threads that discuss theory-crafting and class balance issues, and so in honor of all those 'informative' threads, I give you this masterpiece: Class Balancing Episode 1 - Getting Past the Trap! THE SCENARIO - After making your perception checks, you discover that the hallway in front of you is most definitely trapped (oh no's!). What do you do? Druid: *contemplates sending her animal companion down the hall first(animal cruelty at its finest), but instead decides to take 10 minutes to figure out which creature she'd like to wildshape into* Rogue: *"Don't worry guys, I got this!" she says, while all the while thinking Evasion level 2 for the win!* Fighter: *looks at silly rogue fiddling with the trap...and then happily proceeds to step down the hall thumping his armor LIKE A MAN!* "Come at me bro!" Barbarian: *quickly remembers (despite her constant need to SMASH) that she has damage reduction...and then promptly proceeds to walk down the hall before yelling back at the group to "BE A MAN" as she sways her shapely hips* Oracle: *babbles incoherently, walks into a wall, casts her freakin protection spell (with no verbal components no less) and walks forward with confidence...cure spells at the ready (while still managing to look hot as hell with her 17 charisma)* Cleric: *grumbles in frustration as she glares at the rest of the group before screaming "I AM NOT A BAND-AID!"* Gunslinger: *stands there practicing her 'quick draw' technique, praying to God that the bloody gun won't misfire...again!* Summoner: *summons OP Eidolon and says "Hey bro! We found a trap!" then points down the hall saying "You first!"...obviously completely aware of the fact that his immortal Eidolon will be just fine* Paladin: *Volunteers to step forward first, clearly feeling confident that his God will protect him (and if God screws up, lay on hands and Divine Grace for the win!)* Antipaladin: *watches as half the group willingly steps forward into the obviously dangerous trap thinking 'Wow, this is going to be easier than I thought'* Monk: *has enough common sense to simply sit on the floor and wait for the rogue and/or ninja to disable the trap* Inquisitor: *watches in amazement as some members of the group walk forward into the trap, while other members try to disable it, as the rest just wait around to see who's left standing when the smoke finally clears* Bard: *plays his banjo while singing his heart out, moonwalking down the hall without a single care in the world* Sorcerer: *casts fly upon herself and struts down the hall (yes, she struts in the air), while looking back at the wizard with a confident little smile "Real God's don't need spellbooks"* Wizard: *grumbles to himself and casts Unseen Servant saying "Run down the hall as fast as you can, and make sure to touch as many things as possible!* [Unseen Servant]: *Gets secretly excited (despite being mindless) about groping the oracle, sorcerer, and smoking hot barbarian* Witch: *holds her familiar close and prays that none of these stupid idiots end up getting it killed again* Magus: *gets fed up and casts dimension door, transporting himself to the other end of the hall (wasted level 4 spell...check...separated himself from the party...check...still potentially activating the trap despite all his efforts...double check...so yeah, high intelligence score for the win) Ninja: *mysteriously utters "I'm Batman" before vanishing from sight* Cavalier: *continues to feel sad that he couldn't take his pony into yet another dungeon* Samurai: *also feels bad about not having his pony, but at least he still has his trusty old Katana* Alchemist: *takes a moment to look at his crazily deformed body, with his four human arms, bat-like wings, and large slimy tentacle, thinking the entire time "My God...what have I done"....and a mid-life crisis quickly ensues* Ranger: *Looks down the hall, then at the rest of the group, before 'wisely' and 'politely' motioning them forward "After you"* So, as you can tell, every class is useless ;). Hope you all enjoyed, and feel free to post comments or your own versions if you like.
Meh, I've just been wanting to make an alchemist with Arcane Strike for a VERY long time. Still crossing my fingers and hoping that alchemists eventually get caster levels :)
I actually just checked, and apparently the trait 'Touched by Divinity' gives you access to a 1st level domain spell with a CL equal to your character level so I suppose that works to.
The reason I say War Sight counters deafness is because being deaf affects your ability to perceive danger (and thus also hurts your initiative). With War Sight, it no longer matters if you can perceive danger or not, since you can always act in a surprise round regardless of whether you perceived the enemies or not (plus, it helps with the initiative issue as well). I guess the issue I'm having is that if you are allowed to 'act' in a surprise round, doesn't that essentially suggest that you are 'aware' that a surprise round is taking place? If so, wouldn't that mean that you are automatically 'awakened' if a surprise round occurs? Again, I would chalk it up to a 'sixth sense' or 'battle-sense' that goes beyond normal senses, allowing you to perceive danger even though you would not normally perceive it (hence the example of being asleep).
Helm of the Mammoth Lord - Grants you a gore attack (which is primary)
There are also some 'fleshcrafting potions' that can give you some secondary natural attacks for a permanent penalty, although I wouldn't recommend using them. Essentially the above magic items are your best (and probably the least cheesiest) bet to acquire more natural attacks. In truth, natural attacks only really shine on something like a ninja, rogue, alchemist, etc. If you already have a Full BAB, you probably don't need them (just go ahead and stick with two-handing a weapon, unless you REALLY wanna have the natural attack flavor).
Vest of Stable Mutation - 20000gp
In honor of my wonderful obsession with natural attacks, I decided to go ahead and post my build for making an incredible Mr. Hyde Alchemist. The entire point of this setup is to take advantage of the incredible amount of accuracy that primary natural attacks provide, as well showing everyone how to properly balance out a great melee-based alchemist. Now, to start things off, I would first like to point out what type of archetypes I recommend when using this build. In my personal opinion, the Vivisectionist and Internal Alchemist archetypes are probably the best way to go, though I understand why some of you might be attracted to the Beastmorph archetype. The truth is though, aside from gaining pounce, the beastmorph archetype really doesn't provide you with any other spectacular benefits (at least in my opinion). Oh sure, you can gain a lot of neat benefits when you drink your mutagen, like flying and such, but there are a lot of other easy ways of obtaining those same abilities. All in all, I really do think the beastmorph archetype is HIGHLY overrated, but that doesn't mean you can't use it if you don't want to. Anyways, now that we have established the type of archetypes we're using, lets try and figure out what type of race we should select. Now again, there are a lot of good options for the alchemist, but in my humble opinion, I seriously would encourage one of the following races... Human (I would recommend selecting the 'dual talent' racial trait)
Each of the above races are very well suited for becoming powerful melee-based alchemists. However, I personally find myself favoring the Hobgoblin more than any of the others, and my reason for this is very simple: a hobgoblin alchemist can pretty much fill all the roles of a rogue. Because goblinoids gain 'stealth' as a class skill, and because a hobgoblin gets an incredible +4 to stealth, I find that the hobgoblin alchemist makes a great substitute for the 'skill monkey' of the party. Furthermore, the hobgoblin provides a nice boost in stats without ever penalizing any of your ability scores. All in all, I'd say it is an incredible choice for an alchemist, and the added benefit of speaking goblin and having darkvision is just the icing on the cake. Of course, I won't deny that a human with 'dual talent' could probably have better stats, but I still think a hobgoblin is a better choice. Once we have selected our race, its time to go ahead and get our stats out of the way. Again, assuming we have a 15 point buy in (and that we have selected hobgoblin as our race) our stats should probably look something like this... STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 7 These are pretty solid stats given our race and class, with a nice good mixture of offensive and defensive capabilities. Charisma is obviously useless to us, so there isn't any real reason to try and maintain it. From here, its time to start selecting our feats, traits, discoveries, and magic items. My recommendations for all of them are as follows... Feats
Traits
Discoveries
Useful Magic Items
Alright, before we continue, I imagine that I probably need to do a little bit of explaining, particularly in regards to using the vestigial arms and tentacle discovery. There has been an ongoing debate about whether or not a player can actually use these 'additional limbs' to make natural attacks or not. Now, from what I have gathered (and debated about) in many other threads is the following: both the tentacle discovery and vestigial arms can be used in place of attacks you could normally make. In other words, if you have a BAB of +11, you are allowed to make 3 attacks. Therefore, in order to use 2 vestigial arms and the tentacle discovery, you must have the required BAB in order to make an attack with all 3 of them. Anyway, the only reason I bring this up is because I'll need to explain how my alchemist is able to end up with 6 primary natural attacks and 1 secondary natural attack. For starters, the Feral Mutagen discovery grants the alchemist 3 primary natural attacks (2 claws and 1 bite). However, if you take the vestigial arm discoveries, you can also use 'demon talons' to basically 'cut off' your vestigial arms and replace them with 'claw attacks' as well (if your GM won't allow demon talons, just go ahead and use Talons of Leng instead...although I will warn you that the talons of leng are much worse and more expensive when compared to buying 2 demon talons). When you add in the secondary natural attack provided by the tentacle discovery along with the 'gore attack' gained from Helm of the Mammoth Lord, you now have a grand total of 7 natural attacks (in other words, you basically have more attacks than an alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting AND you hit more accurately than most other players because you are mostly using primary natural attacks). Of course, when you add in your ability to deliver sneak attacks, along with the versatility of your extracts and discoveries, you can basically take on the role of the 'melee-meat shield' as well. Speaking of extracts, allow me to show you all a list of recommended formulas... Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5
Level 6
The main reason I like this build so much is because not only are you able to act as a serious threat in combat, but you can also support your party and fill many essential roles as well. Disabling traps, buffing the party, acting as the scout, and being able to absorb an absurd amount of punishment while still dishing out very reliable and powerful damage is extremely appealing on so many levels. Anyways, if you have any questions, comments, or concerns, feel free to make a post and I'll try to address them whenever I can. Thanks again :P
Yeah...I gotta say...scariest thing in the game is this sucker right here... Nothing in the world is more scary than a colossal-sized shark with red eyes THAT CAN FRIGGIN FLY!!! Just imagine swimming in the ocean and then suddenly spotting this sucker coming right at you. It would be time to panic I think.
Ah...the Paladins...to this day, I have to say that the funniest character I ever made was my Lawful Good Paladin in a party full of evil characters. Wanna know how he worked? He basically was on a quest to redeem all of the party members and make them see the error of their ways. However, the worst part about this goal was how he went about achieving it. For example.... A wizard who cuts off the fingers of his enemies during interrogation and feeds them to his badger familiar. (My Paladin would be like: "Ah, I fear you must suffer for the error of your ways...my allies need your assistance...so do not be afraid...your pain is for a noble cause...now go on...break his thumb...I'm sure he will talk then.") An alchemist who enjoys poisoning and setting his victims on fire and experiments on survivors. (My Paladin would be like: "We must all make sacrifices in the name of science...but thankfully they will be in a better place soon.") A rogue who slits the throats of any captive once they stop being useful (My Paladin: "His purpose has been fulfilled, for truly the Gods will grant him mercy.") A Rogue that organizes a gang of street urchins into a thieves and assassin's guild (My Paladin: "Such a noble deed, giving the orphans and strays a sense of purpose...well done!") A wizard who traps a bunch of guards behind a stone wall and suffocates them to death with Cloudkill. (My Paladin: "BREATH DEEPLY!! AND REMEMBER TO FOLLOW THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL...MAY THE GOD'S BLESS YOU!") A barbarian who slaughtered his way through a regiment of the king's guard to free an imprisoned party member. (My Paladin: "Tis their own fault really. After all, when an elephant charges at you at full speed, the sensible thing to do is to step out of the way.") A ninja who moonlighted as an assassin. (My Paladin: "Everyone needs a hobby.") A nobleman bard who betrayed his entire race to slavery to earn himself a place of power in the new government (Although arguably this was to avoid genocide) (My Paladin: "I am certain his guilt must haunt him every night...and I shall pray that he finds the courage to forgive himself.") A summoner constantly in the company of demons. (My Paladin: "Sometimes it is important to keep a leash on evil." *as my paladin smiles and looks around at his 'vile' party members* ) A wizard who used stone shape to wrap a sleeping guard's head in rock with a tiny hole for air, starving him to death. (My Paladin: "Truly that guard has payed for his sins.") (Not my character, but a good friend) A Vampire Sorcerer that dominated a guard in a dungeon and used him as our personal monkey boy/trapfinder. (My Paladin: "I am certain that the guard will feel very gratified knowing that he is helping to save the lives of myself and my allies.") A fighter that bought a goblin slave. (My Paladin: "Goblins might be nasty, ugly, and stupid creatures...but I'm sure he's happy on the inside.") ;)
...honestly...I'm actually starting to question if I am even allowed to use unarmed strikes in combination with natural attacks at all. That's not what the rules say (obviously), but from what is being suggested...if I use my claws as natural weapons...my unarmed strikes won't work because I have somehow exceeded a two-weapon fighting baseline that I never even knew existed. Truth be told, unarmed fighting and 'natural weapons' have always been a little under-powered when compared to other things, and I figured that the only way to actually keep up with the damage output of other classes was to find clever ways of 'legally' adding more natural weapons and unarmed strikes together. That way, you can actually get some decent millage out of that 'overpriced' amulet of mighty fists. Like, if you can stack two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes ON TOP of natural weapons...then the amulet actually starts to give you back some pretty decent value.
Not trying to sound rude or anything, but the way the discovery is written (per RAW) the devs are clearly wrong (I've yet to see a 'definitive' answer anyway from any of the devs regarding this issue, which is another reason why I am bringing it back up again). I find it amazing how everyone keeps wanting to go back to the whole 'does not give the alchemist any extra attacks' bit when that actually has nothing to do with natural attacks. Let me ask anyone, when has a 'natural attack' EVER been considered an 'extra attack'? Lets think about this for a second: does Feral Mutagen give you 'extra' claw attacks and an 'extra' bite attack? Nope. In fact, you'll be surprised to learn that whenever any text refers to a 'natural attack', that natural attack is NEVER referred to as an 'extra' attack. In other words, it is an attack that can be made as part of your 'normal attack routine'. Now HASTE, on the other hand, specifically grants an 'extra attack' per the description of the spell. Therefore, the most basic explanation is this... A 'natural attack' does NOT equal an 'extra attack'. Since this holds true, there is NO REASON to think that the 'tentacle attack' behaves any differently from a normal secondary natural attack.
Ahem, lets try to put the record straight again (love these debates): Vestigial Arm - does it grant extra attacks...nope...says so in the description. Feral Mutagen - does it grant 2 claw attacks...yep...says so in the description. Are Vestigial Arms legal targets for Feral Mutagen...yep...your vestigial arms are both perfectly legal targets. Can you make attacks with your claws...yep...because your vestigial arms are now considered CLAWS...not vestigial arms. As I've stated before, natural attacks are not considered extra attacks anyway, and I find it immensely funny how a lot of people want to say that the 'tentacle' discovery doesn't grant you a natural attack as well. After all, the 'tentacle' discovery says that it doesn't grant you any additional attacks...BUT...it clearly allows you to make a 'tentacle attack'. By definition (per RAW) a 'tentacle attack' is a secondary natural attack. Nothing in the description of the 'tentacle' discovery states otherwise. As mentioned in previous threads, the entire clause of the whole 'grants no extra attacks' is ONLY there to clarify that having these extra limbs does NOT grant you any increased actions to your BAB. For example, if you can normally make 2 attacks from your BAB, having a 'tentacle' or 'vestigial arm' does not allow you to add a third attack via your BAB (basically, it doesn't grant you any 'extra' iterative strikes). However, in the case of the tentacle discovery, you CAN use it to make a secondary natural attack (again, per RAW), since natural attacks are NOT limited or controlled by your BAB (in other words, it doesn't use iterative attacks).
I've attempted this sort of build numerous times, and I have to admit, I've always found the feat investment to be far to harsh for what you are getting. Again, this is why I normally encourage anyone attempting a 'tooth and nail' build to REALLY consider using unarmed strikes instead. Two-weapon fighting combined with a couple of natural attacks can net you a huge number of attacks with a greater degree of both accuracy and damage. You should take a look at my "Making Mr. Hyde" and "Feral Barbarian" threads. In both cases, I am easily gaining gaining 10 attacks on a full round action.
So, in my never-ending quest to show off just how cool combining natural attacks with unarmed strikes can be, I decided to go ahead and make another post regarding the ever-so-popular Mr. Hyde build. Now, as far as making the build work, it's important to understand what type of alchemist archetypes the character should take in order to get the most effectiveness out of his class. Of course, most of you might suggest (and for obviously good reasons) the combination of beastmorph and vivisectionist alchemist. However, what I am about to suggest mighty seem a bit crazy, but after a lot of examination and play-testing, I have come to this conclusion... The beastmorph alchemist is HIGHLY overrated. The only thing (and yes, I mean ONLY thing) appealing about the beastmorph archetype is the fact that you can eventually obtain pounce by level 10. Other than that, the class really doesn't offer any substantial benefits beyond a few slight improvements to your mutagens. In my experience, I have personally found the Vivisectionist and Internal Alchemist combination to be much more satisfying for both flavor and play, especially since the two of them compliment each other very well. Now again, I want to stress that this build is entirely based around the 'unarmed striking' and 'natural attack' combination in order to maximize it's overall efficiency. So, with that being said, allow to give you all the least of feats and discoveries that enhance this progression... Feats
Discoveries
The goal of the above build is to try and maximize both your offensive and defensive capabilities, while still being able to function in battle without having to always rely upon your mutagen (though granted, it is still important to have your mutagen on hand at all times if you can manage it). On a side note, I would 'strongly' recommend that EVERYONE spend the time to learn the 'Eternal Potion' discovery, for it is by far one of the most powerful discoveries that an Alchemist can learn. I mean, just imagine if there was a feat that said 'You are constantly under the effects of haste'. Like...seriously...almost every character would get that feat...and that's pretty much what Eternal Potion does. However, while an 'Eternal Potion of Haste' is certainly a good choice for the Mr. Hyde build, I would honestly encourage players to select the 'Eternal Potion of Good Hope' instead. I mean, getting a constant +2 morale bonus to just about EVERY is a really sweet deal, and its made even better if you get a +4 Courageous Amulet of Mighty Fists. Granted, while I know you'll have to wait until level 16 or 17 to pull this off, getting a constant +4 moral bonus to pretty much EVERYTHING is a pretty darn sweet deal. Aside from discoveries and feats, selecting the proper extracts can also really help to redefine your build as well. Here are a few of my personal suggestions... Enlarge Person
If your DM allows you to buy potions of high caster level (such as 20th level Greater Magic Fang) then Alchemical Allocation is also a good choice as well. Keep in mind though, that many GMs might simply rule that you can only buy potions of minimum caster level (which essentially gimps the alchemical allocation extract pretty hard). Still, this isn't to say that it isn't without its uses, it just won't be as crazily effective. Anyways, I hope you all enjoyed the thread. Feel free to post comments and opinions as you like.
Alright, because I am so in love with making a character who specializes in 'unarmed strikes' (and yes, that includes natural attacks), I decided to go ahead and post my advice for constructing a very effective 'unarmed' Barbarian. I will try my best to explain in detail the progress of the barbarian, as well as provide excellent equipment choices and an analysis of the appropriate rage powers. And so, with that being said, let us start with the feats first... Feats (FYI, this progress assumes that you are human)
To start things off, I'd like to explain why I feel that a human is the perfect race for this sort of build: 1) You REALLY need the extra feat. Believe it or not, making an unarmed striking two-weapon fighting barbarian REALLY does require a large feat investment, and being a human can also give you plenty of versatility when powering up your attributes. 2) The favored class option for a human barbarian is EXTREMELY powerful, as it really does power up your Superstitious bonus. Now then, lets move on to your rage powers... Rage Powers
Typically speaking, I would normally encourage anyone to go with the Invulnerable Rager archetype, as I personally find it to be one of the strongest archetypes a barbarian can choose. That being said, I'm sure many of you are wondering "Why didn't I add 'Come and Get Me' rage power" to the list of rage powers we could choose from. Well, in my experience, when building the 'unarmed striker' barbarian, the Come and Get Me rage power really doesn't help as much. The trick about the unarmed striker is that it typically won't hit nearly as hard as the classic 'two-handed' barbarian (who is more than likely workin' the crit as well). However, while our individual strikes don't hit as hard, the sheer number of our attacks more than makes up for that (especially when combined with the right items). Now, for items, here are a few of them that I would recommend... +1 Brawling armor (any light armor will do, but you should typically choose something that can hold your Dex. I basically go with Haramaki personally) - For a mere 4,153 gp, you can get a powerful +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes, which is obviously very powerful. +3 Courageous Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists (yea, i know, late game item...but you can still buy a Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists for fairly cheap) - Basically when you rage, you get a +5 enchancement bonus to all your unarmed strikes and natural attacks (which helps to overcome DR...and don't you DARE say that it doesn't...lol), and you also get huge boosts from your moral bonuses as well. Monk's Robes - I won't lie, this item is kinda optional. I mean, upgrading your 1d3 to a 1d8 is pretty sweet, but variable damage really isn't all that important. Still, if you have the spare gold, I'd probably buy it. Ring of Rat Fangs - You need all the natural attacks you can get, and while I realize that you could probably just take the Animal Fury rage power, buying the item (in my opinion) seems a lot more convenient since it frees up room for other rage power options at lower levels. Ring of Evasion - Your Dex should be huge (especially from Superstition), so you should almost NEVER fail a reflex save. Now, as far as the build is concerned, your initial 5 levels will start out somewhat basic. Essentially, you wanna go ahead and grab a two-handed weapon level 1 (probably with some spears for good ranged attacks as well). When you reach level 2 and obtain your claw attacks, you can basically just drop your two-handed weapon and fight with your claws whenever you rage. By level 3, you can continue to use your two-handed weapon, but now you have the option of adding your 'unarmed strikes' with your claws whenever you activate rage. By level 5, you should be strictly sticking to your unarmed strikes from this point onward. The reason I like this build so much is because nothing is wasted: every aspect of the barbarian's rage powers are used to the fullest with this sort of setup, and ironically enough, it actually proves to be very effective. The best part though is that with the Superstition bonus, combined with the favored class option, Courageous bonus, and Ghost Rager power...well...you basically almost become immune to casters: You will almost never fail a save, and I'm fairly certain that a caster will never hit your touch AC either. Anyway, I hope this post was insightful, and feel free to leave comments if you like. Thanks again for reading, and take care :)
Glad we're still finding humor in this ;)
To my knowledge, the best 'unarmed striker' in the game is probably the Barbarian (maybe summoner synthesist...and alchemist also has a chance of competing as well). A barbarian has his rage, raging brutality (which is purely sick), gets natural attacks through rage powers, gets better saves then the fighter (and arguably better saves then the monk if built correctly), AND has pounce.
Just figured I'd help to point out a neat little trick for the lonely barbarians out there. Now, to start things off, you'll need to get these properties on your weapon: Furious + Courageous After that, get the weapon's 'enhancement bonus' to a +4 (which would be +6 when you rage). Now, according to Courageous, half of your weapons enhancement bonus gets added on to all of your moral bonuses. Therefore, since Rage (and the Superstition rage power), all give moral bonuses...this is basically what you're looking at: An additional +3 moral bonus to Strength, Constitution, and saves vs. spells (or just a +3 moral bonus to Will saves if you don't have Superstitious). And then, if you REALLY wanna abuse your weapon, get the Desperate Battler feat. Desperate Battler - When no ally is within 10 feet of you and you are not receiving benefits from the aid another action, you gain a +1 morale bonus on melee attack and damage rolls. Your weapon would thus give you an additional +3 moral bonus to your attack and damage rolls (equaling a +4 moral bonus to hit and damage just from this single feat). pretty cool no? ;)
Headband of Ariel Agility +6 (81,000gp) - it's pretty expensive, but it does give you constant fly (which compared to Wings of Flying at 54,000, this is actually a pretty decent buy). Cap of the Free Thinker (12,000 gp) - note sure if this was mentioned yet, but rolling twice for saves is always good (and anything that calls for a will save is more than likely mind-effecting). Headband of Fortune's Favor (7,700gp) - Adds a constant luck bonus to saves (never really a bad investment). Gauntlets of Skill at Arms (30,000gp) - not sure if this is worth it, but these gauntlets do two things: 1) gives you exotic weapon proficiency for elven weapons, or 2) give you a constant competence bonus to hit and damage. Cloak of Fangs (2,800gp) - grants a resistance bonus and a nice extra attack. (probably not worth the price, but still not terrible)
Alrighty, after looking over the fighter, I realized that making an unarmed striker would actually be very fun and easy. However, out of all the archetypes that I could choose from, the Lore Warden stood out the most. Why? Because the benefits are absolutely amazing! 1) Your CMB and CMD get outrageously high.
My basic gear will look something like this... Monk's Robe
As you can see, I'm sort of optimizing for damage, and my feats will also be going into Two-weapon fighting and unarmed strikes. I've considered taking Combat Reflexes combined with Viscous Stomp and Greater Trip (provoking 2 attacks of opportunity on a successful trip, which is just plane nuts). I also want to add as many natural attacks to this build as possible (which is one reason why I haven't decided on the race yet). Also, I'm looking for any items (aside from headband of intelligence of course) or feats that can give me more skill points or benefit my knowledge rolls. And finally, if someone has a link to a Lore Warden guide or something, that would be great. :) Any help is always appreciated, and thanks again.
Okay, after looking through the threads, I decided to go ahead and figure out if Wisdom should even be considered as an essential Monk Stat. Now, in order to start this off, we first need to consider what all that the Wisdom stat provides to the monk (excluding bonuses to skills and increases to Will saves of course). In addition, I will also explore the pros and cons of wearing armor. Therefore, let us begin... When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. Okay, so if you wear armor or use a shield, this is what you lose: 1) Wisdom to AC and the bonus AC gained through level progression. (This isn't really a problem for several reasons: a) In the long run, AC won't really matter. b) if you wear armor or use a shield, you can EASILY make up for this loss of AC. and c) armor and shields can provide you with many more benefits, but we'll get to that in a bit). 2) Fast Movement. (This ability is actually useful, but in the long run, not really an issue. If you want more speed, Boots of Striding and Springing, anything that lets you fly, or even the haste spell can all compensate for this loss) 3) Flurry of Blows. (Basically a weird version of TWF with some bonuses to hit. Again, this is not really an issue, depending upon how you are building your monk. With the right feats, the loss of this ability can be easily replaced) Okay, so now we have established what you lose by wearing armor, lets try and understand what you GAIN by it instead. Of course, before you ask, I realize that a monk is not proficient with any sort of armor. However, when you really think about it, the lack of proficiency is only detrimental IF the armor has an armor check penalty. Therefore, if you eliminate the armor check penalty, there are NO penalties for wearing armor (aside from the ones mentioned above). Now, the obvious question is this: how do you reduce or eliminate armor check penalties? Well, here is just a small list of possibilities that I was able to find... 1) The 'Comfort' armor property (+5,000 gp) - reduces ACP by 1. 2) Mithral Armor - reduces ACP by 3 (and raise Max Dex of armor by 2). 3) Armor Expert trait - reduces ACP by 1 I'm sure there are other methods as well, but the monk should have access to all of the mentioned abilities above, which essentially totals to a -4 for the armor check penalty. In addition, Mithral also makes any medium armor made of metal count as 'light' armor. Thus, at the end of the day, we can conclude this... A monk is perfectly capable of wearing medium mithral armor without incurring any penalty to attacks, skills, speed, etc, so long as he can reduce the armor check penalty to zero. Surprisingly enough, almost all medium armor can be reduced to 0 armor check penalty using the above mentioned methods. However, I'm sure someone is going to say "what if I have a high dexterity? Won't I miss out on increasing my AC through dexterity if I wear armor?" To that I say...take a look at Celestial Armor: max dex of +8 with a -2 armor check penalty. Just slap on your armor expert trait with the comfort property (or arguably just make it mithral) and presto! Your armor will afford you all the Dex you need. Then again, if you are STILL able to get your dexterity higher than that, just get a haramaki and call it a day. Anyways, now that we have established the use for armor, let us take a look at a monk who uses shields. As before, the same restrictions apply, so if you reduce the ACP to zero, you take no penalty. With shields, this is actually very easy - just make them all mithral. Doing so allows a monk to wield ANY shield (except tower shields) without a problem. Now, some of you might be thinking: "how can I two-weapon fight with a shield in my hand?" The answer is easy - if you're using unarmed strikes, just use your feet. This allows you to wield a buckler or a shield in your hand without penalty while still utilizing two-weapon fighting. Pretty neat trick right? ;) The next step in this process is figuring out what type of properties to put on your armor/shield (which is very important considering that you gave up quiet a bit to get this stuff in the first place). For shields, I seriously recommend getting Heavy Fortification (honestly, there really isn't any other property that is better than this...75% chance to ignore crits and sneak attacks is just too good). As for armor, just get the 'brawling' property and then customize your armor in any way you like (honestly, there aren't that many useful '+' properties in pathfinder in my opinion, but if you have access to the magic item compendium from 3.5, there are a lot of good options there). With the inclusion of enhancement bonuses, combined with a high enough dex, your AC should be relatively equal (if not higher) then the AC granted by a Wisdom based monk with no armor (of course, bracers of armor can change that). Still, lets take a moment and look at some math... +7 AC from wisdom (36,000 gp from wisdom headband) +7 AC from dexterity (36,000 gp from dex belt) and +8 AC from bracers (64,000 gp) = 22 AC then we have... +9 armor (22,400 gp from Celestial Chainmail) +7 AC from dexterity (36,000 gp from dex belt) + 6 shield (25,000 gp for enhancement bonus) = 22 AC Statistically, it is actually CHEAPER to increase your AC through armor. Again, this is all assuming that you actually care about your AC to begin with, because as we all know, AC kinda becomes less important as you progress in level. However, given the benefits that armor and shields can give you, I would still say that Monk AC is kinda sub-par. At this point, I would now make the argument that Wisdom should also be considered a 'dump stat' for the monk, and my reason for saying this is simple: the only thing that wisdom controls (aside from the Monk AC) is the effectiveness of your stunning fist, quivering palm, and the amount of Ki points in your Ki Pool (there are a few other things too, but the mentioned abilities are primarily the main the ones). I would first like to point out that there are many archetypes that eliminate these abilities to begin with (in fact, there are even some archetypes that eliminate flurry, fast movement, and monk AC as well). However, even so, there are still a few things that you need to keep in mind... 1) You will still get Ki points based on your monk level (granted, it's not a lot, but to be honest, it really wasn't a whole lot to begin with anyway...and their are archetypes that let you regain Ki in a lot of easy ways) 2) i have rarely seen ANYONE use quivering palm to begin with, and while it is a neat 'death attack', its usefulness is somewhat limited (in my opinion). 3) Stunning fist is limited in its uses per day, and is mainly used to disable things with a low fortitude save. It's not a bad ability, and it does have uses, but I wouldn't consider it a vital skill. Therefore, if your goal is to make the 'unarmed monk' who basically beats face all day, then wisdom really should be dropped as a dump stat. In fact, if you decide to go ahead and wear armor, you could even make a monk who is basically a fighter (not sure why you would go this route and not just go fighter, but meh, to each his own). Then again, if you wanted to just go straight fighter, you could always just use this combination... Brawling armor + Monk's Robes + weapon training (natural) + all those crazy feats that increase damage = .....yea...a fighter is hands down a better unarmed striker than the monk. I suppose this just means that people should really just look at the monk as a supportive class if nothing else. If you take it for the 'unarmed strike damage'....well, you're just gonna get outdone. I guess the roll of the monk is to provide some sort of 'martial class battlefield control' where you focus on particular targets and disable them....but as I said, if you're looking for raw damage, just go fighter. Either way, having a monk with armor is perfectly viable, and in the end, you don't lose anything all that important (especially when you eliminate some of those abilities by using various archetypes). Anyway, I hope this post was able to help. Take care everyone, and thanks again for reading. :)
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