What happens when an eidolon enters an anti-magic field?


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Okay, this issue has come up in my current adventure path in Kingmaker, and I really need to find an answer.

Basically the argument boils down to this: does the eidolon 'wink' out of existence when it enters an antimagic field or not?

My argument is that it does not, because the eidolon is brought into existence using a 'ritual' with an instantaneous effect (I'm assuming the ritual MUST be a conjuration effect because u are literally 'summoning' a creature from another plane). Therefore, the eidolon follows the similar rules to a planar ally (basically a planar ally would NOT wink out of existence in an antimagic field because it is not tethered to the material plane by magic).

Furthermore, if you detect magic on the eidolon, from what I can tell...the eidolon would not register as a 'conjuration' effect (again, meaning that the eidolon is ACTUALLY there and not simply existing in that location because of a 'magical' effect). Therefore, if the eidolon doesn't register as 'magical' when u detect magic on it...how can it be effected by an 'anti-magic field' if there is NO MAGIC on the eidolon?

Keep in mind that like planar ally, eidolon's are not effected by dispel magic effects (which is essentially what antimagic field does). So, if the eidolon is immune to dispel magic effects...how can antimagic field work on it?

Yes, I know the eidolon is listed as being a 'summoned creature', but it would appear that it is a summoned creature that with 'no duration' (which would then mean that the 'summoning' of this summoned creature is an instantaneous effect...which would then imply that antimagic field CANNOT effect it).

Please, any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.


Antimagic Field wrote:
Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.

And...

Antimagic Field wrote:
Elementals, undead, and outsider are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field.

And...

Summoner Eidolon Ability wrote:
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform.

However...

Summoner Eidolon Ability wrote:
The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

So, it seems to me that reading the relevant abilities suggests that, although it is an Outsider, it is summoned, and as summoned creatures of any type wink out while inside an Antimagic Field (eventually to reappear when the effect goes away, if it goes away), the Eidolon would wink out when in the presence of an Antimagic Field, but will return when the Antimagic Field is no longer having an effect within that area. However, if the Field is immobile and permanent for whatever reason, you could always dismiss, and then summon your Eidolon again at a different location.

If you are a Synthesist Summoner, I would think that since the Eidolon is essentially linked to your form and position, you could move to outside of the Antimagic Field and the Eidolon would return to enveloping you as per the Synthesist ability for summoning it.

Unless there's some FAQ I am not aware of that negates this RAW reading.


Yes, I agree that summoned creatures do wink out...but that only applies to summoned creatures with a duration. Here is the relevant text...

Pathfinder SRD wrote:


ANTIMAGIC FIELD
School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.

Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature's spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field. Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Basically the eidolon is summoned into existence by a 'conjuration effect' and has an instanteous duration. Therefore, it is an except to the rule of being effected by the anti-magic field.

Also, as I stated before...if the eidolon doesn't even register as being magical (such as using detect magic on it), how can it even be effected by an anti-magic field?


Duskblade wrote:

Yes, I agree that summoned creatures do wink out...but that only applies to summoned creatures with a duration. Here is the relevant text...

Pathfinder SRD wrote:


ANTIMAGIC FIELD
School abjuration; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.

Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature's spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned

...

When it talks about effects of instantaneous conjurations, they are talking about certain conjuration effects...

Conjuration wrote:

Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Calling and Creation. Neither of which is the Eidolon.

Even though the Eidolon ability has this text which does use 'call', it does not use it in the specific meaning intended...

Eidolon wrote:
An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

It is still CLEARLY a summoned creature and treated as a summoned creature, not a 'called' creature.

Here are some examples of the 'instantaneous conjurations' that the Antimagic Field is mentioning in your bolded text.

Retrieve Item
It is a Calling effect. Such that if you retrieve an item with the spell and then enter an Antimagic Field, the called item is not whisked away back to its previous location. The calling is an instantaneous effect (though the spell effect allowing you to call it is 'permanent', that is different from the effect of you calling it to you, besides which it is assumed, I think, to be discharged when you have called it to you, but we're not dealing with that particular technicality here).

Wall of Iron
This is a Creation effect. So that although the generation of the Wall of Iron is magical, once the Wall of Iron has been Created it is no longer bound by magic and so an Antimagic Field does not dismiss it.

These are two excellent examples of Calling and Creation, two Conjurations which are instantaneous. There are more examples out there, but these are prime ones.

The Eidolon ability specifically goes out of its way to repeat that the Eidolon is ABSOLUTELY a 'summoned' creature, but gives specific restrictions to that property that other 'summoned' creatures would ordinarily be vulnerable to, such as "The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally." So while a Dispel Magic would dismiss a normal summoned creature, it does not dismiss an Eidolon because of this specific protection. Although Dismissal and Banishment will work normally.


Duskblade wrote:
Also, as I stated before...if the eidolon doesn't even register as being magical (such as using detect magic on it)...

How are you arriving at this conclusion, or is this just an assumption that you have made?


I understand the logic and agree with you to a point, but I'm afraid the issue still remains:

If the eidolon is not a 'magical effect', then how can anti-magic field effect it? Yes, while I realize that it is treated as summoned creature, it is NOT a summoned creature with a set duration. By that logic, the eidolon MUST have an instantaneous duration (which is understandable considering dispel magic doesn't work against it). Now, regardless of whether it is called, created, OR summoned...all of these effects are CONJURATION effects....

And as anti-magic field states:

The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

A summoned creature IS a conjuration effect...because we both agree you do summon it. The eidolon does NOT have a duration of any kind (it doesn't exist for hours per level/days per level/etc), which means that the process of 'summoning' the eidolon is instanteous.

Therefore, does it not stand to reason the eidolon is immune to antimagic field? From what I can tell, that seems to be the case.

Basically consider this:

If the eidolon DOESN'T register as magical...how can an anti-magic field effect it?

And if the eidolon DOES register as magical with a conjuration effect....then it is a conjuration effect WITHOUT a duration (thus it is immune to ant-magic field).


Nigrescence wrote:
Duskblade wrote:
Also, as I stated before...if the eidolon doesn't even register as being magical (such as using detect magic on it)...
How are you arriving at this conclusion, or is this just an assumption that you have made?

I see you have completely ignored my post here. Please, answer it.

I will also reiterate for you this text from Antimagic Field.

"Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field."

Again, read my post explaining all of the relevant portions and follow the logic. You are making completely unfounded assumptions and then using a parenthetical text explaining a non-related issue (which is overruled by the above quoted text anyway) to completely ignore EVERYTHING that the rules are saying.


Nigrescence wrote:
Duskblade wrote:
Also, as I stated before...if the eidolon doesn't even register as being magical (such as using detect magic on it)...
How are you arriving at this conclusion, or is this just an assumption that you have made?

Let me put it another way:

If the eidolon is magical, then it would be of the 'conjuration school'...and it is a conjuration effect with no duration...meaning anti-magic field doesn't work against it.

If the eidolon ISN'T magical...then anti-magic field can't effect it anyway because there is NO MAGIC to suppress.

The problem is that the 'ritual to summon an eidolon' doesn't exactly specify what kind of 'effect' it is (yes, we can assume it is a 'summoned effect'...but as you said..this is not specifically stated). Therefore, it stands to reason that the eidolon is either magical or it is NOT magical.

If it is NOT magical, anti-magic field doesn't work regardless of whether or not it is treated as a summoned creature. If it is magical, then it would have to be some sort of conjuration effect (and if it is a conjuration effect with no duration...it is therefore immune to antimagic field).

My point is that either way...regardless of whether the eidolon is magical or not...it would seem that in both cases it is immune to anti-magic field.


An eidolon doesn't actually die when it dies, instead it returns to its plane like a normal summoned creature. However it has an instantaneous duration like a called creature, and I'm sure if they intended it to be just a permanent summoning spell it would have text similar to the capstone ability for conjuration school wizards (that explicitly say the spell has a permanent duration).

An eidolon is neither 100% a summoned creature or 100% a called creature. It cannot be categorized so simply, because it is something else entirely. Reading some rules support one side while reading other rules support the other side, and if you take all of RAW into account then there is no logical answer for this question at all.

Long story short, it's a corner case that actually needs a real FAQ/official response. No matter how compelling one argument is, there is literal RAW to support the other side. It just needs to be covered explicitly because implicitly it's a nightmare. There have been at least 3 previous threads about this exact topic and they never end well.


Why don't you think the duration is a weaker form of concentration? Anytime the summoner "is unconscious, asleep, or killed" sounds like a weak form of concentration to me.

That is completely different than instantaneous or no duration.

I think it would disappear in an Anti-Magic field.


Nigrescence wrote:
Nigrescence wrote:
Duskblade wrote:
Also, as I stated before...if the eidolon doesn't even register as being magical (such as using detect magic on it)...
How are you arriving at this conclusion, or is this just an assumption that you have made?

I see you have completely ignored my post here. Please, answer it.

I will also reiterate for you this text from Antimagic Field.

"Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field."

Again, read my post explaining all of the relevant portions and follow the logic. You are making completely unfounded assumptions and then using a parenthetical text explaining a non-related issue (which is overruled by the above quoted text anyway) to completely ignore EVERYTHING that the rules are saying.

I am not ignoring anything that the rules are saying (if anything I am supporting them, but pointing out a contradiction).

Summoned creatures of any kind wink out of existence.

I agree. However...

The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

The problem with the ENTIRE issue is that from what I can tell...the eidolon qualifies for BOTH of these: it is a summoned creature that is brought into existence using a conjuration effect with an instantaneous duration. If this is the case, then the eidolon CANNOT be subject to an anti-magic field via the rules. This is NOT an unfounded assumption (nor is it an unrelated issue), so please stop calling it such.


Komoda wrote:

Why don't you think the duration is a weaker form of concentration? Anytime the summoner "is unconscious, asleep, or killed" sounds like a weak form of concentration to me.

That is completely different than instantaneous or no duration.

I think it would disappear in an Anti-Magic field.

The problem with that logic is that 'weaker concentration' does not equal 'actual concentration'. The definitions of all 'durations' are clearly spelled out: permanent, timed, concentration, and instanteous. The ability must fall under one of these cateregories if we are to assume the summoning and existence of the eidolon is a magical effect.

From what I can tell, of the four durations listed, the only one it could possibly be is instantaneous based on the description of how the eidolon is summoned.


Yup, both sides are right and wrong. It's a corner case and for once I'm actually vouching for official response (for all the good that will do).

If anybody ever does this in one of my games, I promptly have a spellcaster levitate a portable hole into a bag of holding and increase the radius by a hundred fold via DM shenanigans. Then I flip the table and go get another slice of pizza.


In no case does an instantaneous spell effect end when the caster falls asleep. How could "instantaneous" possibly be a good fit?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The duration isn't instantaneous. It's between permanent and concentration. There are other spells that aren't forever, like explosive runes. I don't understand why you're concluding it's instantaneous instead of permanent with special conditions.


Komoda wrote:
In no case does an instantaneous spell effect end when the caster falls asleep. How could "instantaneous" possibly be a good fit?

"Hey man, glad that my Cure Light Wounds was able to save your life! Alright, time to go to sleep..."

*urk*

"Hey, Billy just died."

"What did it?"

"That damn Cleric resting again."

On a more serious note, it seems that the duration of the SP effect is closer to "permanent until discharged" with the clarification of "effect ends if the caster is unconscious, asleep, or killed". There are several spells that exist with this kind of precedent for duration of permanent conditional.


Here are the options...

=======

Timed Durations

Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.

Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Permanent

The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

Concentration

The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.

=======

Now, the ritual that 'summons' the eidolon must have one of these duration effects (if we are to assume the eidolon is magical). From what we can tell, the 'casting time' of the ritual is one minute...and the duration isn't timed because its not based on rounds/days/hours per level...so timed is out.

The duration is not concentration because you don't have to keep concentrating on the 'ritual' to maintain the effect (u don't spend standard actions each round to keep the eidolon).

It can't be permanent because the eidolon is immune to dispel magic (and the effect of the ritual disappears if the eidolon is killed, etc).

However, upon the completetion of the ritual, the 'ritual' is complete and the eidolon arrives.

The 'ritual' itself is the thing with the duration...the eidolon is the 'result' of said ritual...and as I stated...

The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

The eidolon is that result.


Let me clear this up...

The eidolon is NOT spell.

The ritual is the 'effect/spell' that brings the eidolon into existence.

The ritual is NOT permanent.

The ritual has a casting time of 1 minute with NO timed duration.

The ritual brings the eidolon into existence which is an 'instantaneous effect'.

The ritual must be a conjuration effect.

The eidolon counts as a summoned creature.

If the eidolon is magical, then it is the result of a conjuration effect with an instantaneous duration.

If the eidolon is NOT magical, then the eidolon cannot be effected by an antimagic field DESPITE being a summoned creature (because there is no magic to begin with...and therefore there is nothing to suppress...which means that despite being a summoned creature...the eidolon WOULD NOT wink out of existence).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are other permanent effects immune to dispel magic, like bestow curse. Plus, it's still using the power of the summon ability. If it's still occupying that power, its magical influence must not be expended.


I will say it again: the eidolon is NOT a spell.

The eidolon does NOT have a permanent duration, a timed duration, and doesn't require concentration to maintain.

The eidolon is a summoned creature.

It is the 'result' of a conjuration effect with an 'instantaneous duration' created by the one minute ritual used to summon it.

If I am wrong with any this, don't just sit back and call these assumptions. Explain how I am wrong and please don't waste time mocking my conclusions.


I have already quoted the relevant rules texts, provided examples, explained the interactions, and where the Eidolon class feature sits relative to it all. I think you just chose to not read my post at all, instead spouting your malformed conclusions and protesting "prove me wrong" when it has already been done.

There is likely nothing I can add to this which I have not already said. You are devoted to your interpretation which defies nearly EVERYTHING that sits within the rules text, as I have quoted. You may persist in your delusion if you must, but don't pretend to think that anyone else might recognize your assumptions, already proven incorrect, are anything but incorrect assumptions.

So I'm just going to leave this thread until such time as you demonstrate an understanding of the rules text as has already been quoted and explained to you. I mean, otherwise, why would you even make this thread?


Antimagic areas affect a lot more than just spells, such as SLA and SU effects.

If it were an 'instantaneous' duration, it wouldn't disappear when the summoner slept. A wall of stone is has an instantaneous duration, a summoned eidolon does not.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I feel like we're talking past each other.

I disagree with your conclusion that it's instantaneous. The primary feature of instantaneous is you're done powering it once it comes into effect. One aspect is that you can't take it apart with a dispel. But the evidence that a summoner's abilities are ongoing magic (whether they radiate magic or not) is in their interaction with each other. It's still drawing battery, so it's not instantaneous.


My 2c is I think AMF suppresses the Eidolon, and think it comes down to these two rules passages:

Quote:
The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally.

I would rule that Antimagic Field should be treated like Dismissal/Banishment for this purpose, because it is SPECIFICALLY mentioning that it gets rid of Summoned Creatures, similar to Dismissal/Banishment's SPECIFIC function vs. Outsiders. While Dispel works fine vs. Summon spells, and so would AMF even without it's specific mentioning of Summoned creatures, it has no specific mention of them. Thus AMF is going beyond Dispel's functionality to include SPECIFIC anti-Summoned Creature functionality more akin To Dismissal/Banishment.

Likewise, I believe that Eidolons are not INSTANTANEOUS Conjuration effects (which would be exempted from AMF), but are fundamentally PERMANENT Conjuration effects (and should Detect as such), of course with some special limitations/modifications ("weak concentration", distance to Summoner). Their wording indicates that they are treated as ongoing Summoning effects (albeit with modifications to rules), which wouldn't be the case for INSTANTANEOUS Conjurations where there is no on-going Conjuration magic:

Quote:

Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action).

...That said, AMF has something working against it, and that is it's usual small radius of effect. It may very well be impossible to get Huge Eidolons fully within the radius (at least unless the Caster can enter the Eidolon's space and stay there). And AMF's final line reads:
Quote:
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

So the Eidolon can't threaten from the square(s) that is affected by AMF, but it still is fully in existence in the remainder of it's space outside AMF, and should be able to move outside AMF radius completely if it so wishes.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Quandary cited the right passage, but didn't bolded the most relevant part:

PRD wrote:
Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

The first bolded part is enough: "Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures" is clear enough. AMF make summoned creatures blink out and the eidolons are summoned creatures.

The second bolded passage reiterate that they are summoned creatures explaining that they have a special exemption that other summoned creatures lack.


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The quoted rules state that Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures and then provides a number of exceptions (none of those exceptions relate to AMF).

The rules for AMF state that summoned creatures go poof.

Ergo, Eidolons go poof in an AMF.

If you want to state that Eidolons are instantaneous you need to provide text that states they are. However, there is no text that states this and the non-instantaneous nature of the ability (poof when you go to sleep) is against you.

Instantaneous effects do not go poof when you fall unconscious. Once an instantaneous effect is created there is no magic leftover to go poof.
The fact that Eidolons go poof because you fell unconscious clearly indicates a non-instantaneous effect.

Summary: Eidolons are summoned, summoned creatures go poof in an AMF. There is no proof or even hint that Eidolons are in any way instantaneous conjurations.


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I agree. The ability for me to prove that the eidolon is an instantaneous conjuration effect just isn't there (I basically need a dev to state otherwise at this point because instantaneous duration effects cannot be dismissed...and I have no way proving that the ability to dismiss the eidolon is a separate effect that is just granted through the eidolon ability). I appreciate all the help guys, and thanks for your patience.


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It will disappear in an antimagic field.

The duration IS listed, in a convoluted way...

It is: until the Summoner goes to sleep.

If you are trying to argue that an antimagic effect WON'T make it wink out, you will need to prepare sources to quote to your GM that explicitly talk about Eidolons not being affected by it.

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Gauss wrote:
Summary: Eidolons are summoned, summoned creatures go poof in an AMF. There is no proof or even hint that Eidolons are in any way instantaneous conjurations.

+1

It would need to say Instantaneous to be Instantaneous. Instead it is permanent (without using the word) until unconscious, asleep, or killed.

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Removed some posts and their responses. Please be civil to each other—you can agree to disagree without being mean and insulting about. Please also keep in mind that tone is hard to read from text, and can cause misunderstandings on all sides of the conversation.


What is with the extreme negativity on these forums?
I mean there is so much that DOESN'T get deleted because it "plays within the rules", yet there is still so many moderations.
I don't think I've personally ever had a post moderated. Is it really that hard?
If you've made your point, and somebody disagrees or is just stupid, why not drop it instead of keeping the negative energy ball rolling?

anyhow...

OK, Mark Seifter on the Design Team answered this question in his Ask Mark Seifter thread:

Mark Seifter wrote:
Duskblade wrote:

Hey Mark, I have to ask: Does an eidolon function in an antimagic field? I apologize for bringing up this question if it has already been asked, but the issue has come up in my current adventure path and I'd really like to find an answer.

I've also posted this question on the forums:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sxsw?What-happens-when-an-eidolon-enters-an

In the thread I list my reasons as to why I believe the eidolon doesn't wink out of existence in an ant-magic field, but if you could help shed some light on the subject that would be great.

They are technically a summoned outsider, with no escape clause preventing antimagic field's normal effects on summoned creatures, so the strict rules interaction here is that an eidolon would wink out as per the spell. A rogue eidolon would be OK though.


Eidolons are summoned, they do not have a duration of instant, they have a duration of permanent.

Quote:
If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

This is not an instantaneous effect, it is a permanent effect. It goes away in an anti-magic field.


Would the eidolon (or any summoned monster, for that matter) have to have a significant potion of it's body covered by the AMF, or would just touching it work?


Kaouse wrote:
Would the eidolon (or any summoned monster, for that matter) have to have a significant potion of it's body covered by the AMF, or would just touching it work?

Interesting question.

We have always ran it that the PORTION of its body in the AMF is gone...

Makes for fun descriptions.


Do to the 5' cubed mechanics, I would say any assumption of partial connection would be a house rule.


Kaouse wrote:
Would the eidolon (or any summoned monster, for that matter) have to have a significant potion of it's body covered by the AMF, or would just touching it work?

I discussed that upthread, quoting the AMF rules explicitly covering that situation.

I wrote:

...That said, AMF has something working against it, and that is it's usual small radius of effect. It may very well be impossible to get Huge Eidolons fully within the radius (at least unless the Caster can enter the Eidolon's space and stay there). And AMF's final line reads:

The Rules wrote:
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.
So the Eidolon can't threaten from the square(s) that is affected by AMF, but it still is fully in existence in the remainder of it's space outside AMF, and should be able to move outside AMF radius completely if it so wishes.

Obviously if the Eidolon CAN fit into the AMF completely then it will be completely suppressed.

Note that if the Eidolon is not itself within the AMF, it may still try to attack squares within the AMF, but the attack will not have any effect due to wording of AMF:

Quote:
"An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. "

You would need to make a Knowledge(Arcana) check to be able to know the features of AMF exactly enough in order to predict that effect in that case... If you don't, you [Eidolon] may very well waste an action attacking into AMF.


Tindalen wrote:
Do to the 5' cubed mechanics, I would say any assumption of partial connection would be a house rule.

More like it's a house rule to ignore the last line of AMF. Obviously only relevant if Eidolon is 10' or larger, given 'snapping' of 5' grid, but 10'+ Eidolons are pretty f$&&ing common at levels when AMF is in play.


If you don't want your eidolon to go poof, give him spell resistance. Or use the cleric spell greater spell resistance.


Quandary wrote:
Tindalen wrote:
Do to the 5' cubed mechanics, I would say any assumption of partial connection would be a house rule.
More like it's a house rule to ignore the last line of AMF. Obviously only relevant if Eidolon is 10' or larger, given 'snapping' of 5' grid, but 10'+ Eidolons are pretty f%#$ing common at levels when AMF is in play.

You are correct here, I was making the assumption of partial coverage due to the spherical nature of the amf. If a 10' base eidolon interacts with the first five foot of a sphere of an amf.

The eidolon is 10'x10'x10,', if he steps 5' into the sphere, only a fraction of his bulk is in the amf.


Wow.

Using map squares to describe in game mechanics of EVERYTHING sounds weird.

"a portion of the monster ceases to exist, but it seems to be a portion that is up against an imaginary square..."

Which is odd, as AMF is a radius. Part of it should be missing, but it should be described using the spell, not squares.

Shadow Lodge

Pop! goes the eidolon.


alexd1976 wrote:

Wow.

Using map squares to describe in game mechanics of EVERYTHING sounds weird.

Well, look at how spell radiuses are defined:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/image/SpellAreas.jpg
Quote:
If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

And all this using the 2x diagonals = 3 squares rule, i.e. 2nd diagonal = 2 squares. (which rule reach weapons are exempted from)

It might vibe you wrong, but IMHO it just works better this way than otherwise,
and really it would be bizarre to apply true circles for this, but allow all the other grid-isms (diagonal rule being one).


Quandary wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Wow.

Using map squares to describe in game mechanics of EVERYTHING sounds weird.

Well, look at how spell radiuses are defined:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/image/SpellAreas.jpg
Quote:
If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

And all this using the 2x diagonals = 3 squares rule, i.e. 2nd diagonal = 2 squares. (which rule reach weapons are exempted from)

It might vibe you wrong, but IMHO it just works better this way than otherwise. Since every other mechanic works with squares/corners (determining from where you attack + can reach other creatures, determining what other creatures can reach + attack you, etc), to introduce incomplete/non-binary square AoE just complicates the game.

Using game mechanics, as written, describe someones path of travel while charging an opponent. Anything other than a straight line (map-wise) results in something like this:

"He ran ten feet forward, then five feet diagonally, then another ten feet in a straight line... it looked really odd, he should have just run straight at the guy!"

People adhere to the five foot square concept a bit too much...

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