I know I'm probably bringing up an old (and probably resolved) subject, but I was just hoping for a bit of clarification. Basically, with the new ruling for having spell-like abilities qualify as prerequisites for feats and such, does this imply that an alchemist can now use Arcane Strike?
For example, could an alchemist gain Arcane Strike if they had one of the following:
A race with access to spell-like abilities (tiefling, aasimar, etc)?
A character with the 'magical talent' trait?
From what I understand, Arcane strike can also be used by a rouge with the 'Minor Magic' talent correct? If such is the case, does this mean that both the rogue and the alchemist scale in damage with the Arcane Strike feat (since you need caster levels in order to increase the damage of Arcane Strike)? I'm assuming this is possible for an alchemist since they have 'caster levels', but I wasn't sure about the rogue. Thanks again.
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If they have access to a spell like ability that is arcane, the ruling would allow this. The alchemist still doesn't have caster levels though, as that is what prevents it from taking item creation feats.
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Indeed, if you have a SLA that counts as an arcane spell or even use magical talent trait to pick-up a 0 level arcane spell you would qualify to use arcane strike per the rules of the FAQ.
This happens to be why I think that FAQ is terrible, but that's another discussion.
Be careful though, because Magical Talent makes your caster level equal to only 1 if you don't have levels in a casting class. And so Arcane Strike wouldn't scale beyond a +1 with only Magical Talent. Racial Spell like abilities caster level scales with your character's HD and thus Arcane Strike would scale.
Minor Magic grants a 0 level spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list, and since it's arcane spell you would qualify for Arcane Strike. Because Minor Magic says your caster level is equal to Rogue level is scales.
Alechmist don't have a caster level and do nto cast spells, they do not qualify for arcane strike. However, they could qualify if they have racial SLA and it would then scale with HD.
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I actually just checked, and apparently the trait 'Touched by Divinity' gives you access to a 1st level domain spell with a CL equal to your character level so I suppose that works to.
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But that wouldn't let you qualify for Arcane Strike, as that's clearly a divinely origin'd spell...?
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What ever happened to your revamp of the core martial classes anyways, Duskblade?
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I actually just checked, and apparently the trait 'Touched by Divinity' gives you access to a 1st level domain spell with a CL equal to your character level so I suppose that works to.
Not quite. That would only work if the domain spell in question was an arcane spell. However, I believe that since were talking about a trait called, "Touched by Divinity" (which I cannot find on the PRD) it is referring to Cleric/Druid domains. As far as I know all spells on domains are divine spells, not arcane, even if they emulate arcane spells. Otherwise the spells would be subject to arcane spell failure chance when cast by the cleric or druid. So, no, I don't think Touched by Divinity will let you qualify because you will never pick up an arcane spell.
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And even better, bombs are weapons, and any feat that damage boosts weapons boosts bombs...
gnome pyromaniacs start with a spell like ability CL = character level +1 and a +1 level boost to bomb damage.
Your damage would go up 1 level sooner, nothing to get too excited about but it's not terrible.
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I actually just checked, and apparently the trait 'Touched by Divinity' gives you access to a 1st level domain spell with a CL equal to your character level so I suppose that works to.Not quite. That would only work if the domain spell in question was an arcane spell. However, I believe that since were talking about a trait called, "Touched by Divinity" (which I cannot find on the PRD) it is referring to Cleric/Druid domains. As far as I know all spells on domains are divine spells, not arcane, even if they emulate arcane spells. Otherwise the spells would be subject to arcane spell failure chance when cast by the cleric or druid. So, no, I don't think Touched by Divinity will let you qualify because you will never pick up an arcane spell.
When a spell is being cast from a divine spellcasting class's spell slot, it becomes divine. This has always been the case: the nature of the class doing the casting determines whether it's arcane/divine. However, an SLA isn't being cast by the class, it's being cast independently of that. Per the FAQ, an SLA's divine/arcane designation uses the class hierarchy that starts with sorc/wizard.
So casting burning hands is always going to be arcane, unless you're casting it with a divine spell slot.
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Your damage would go up 1 level sooner, nothing to get too excited about but it's not terrible.And even better, bombs are weapons, and any feat that damage boosts weapons boosts bombs...
gnome pyromaniacs start with a spell like ability CL = character level +1 and a +1 level boost to bomb damage.
Pyromaniac:Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and when determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage (this ability does not give gnomes early access to level-based powers, only affecting the powers they could use without this ability).
Gnomes with Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, produce flame. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level; the DCs are Charisma-based. This racial trait replaces the gnome magic and illusion resistance racial traits.The caster level is equal to the character level of the gnome ([ suppose, as we don't have a class called "gnome" :P ), the spells are a mix of arcane and divine (druidical) spells, so they can be assumed to be arcane SLA and qualify him for arcane strike at Character level.
Not at Character level+1 as he is not using a spell with the fire descriptor when using arcane strike.
He will get the damage output of an alchemist 1 level higher when using an alchemist bombs that deal fire damage.
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Your damage would go up 1 level sooner, nothing to get too excited about but it's not terrible.And even better, bombs are weapons, and any feat that damage boosts weapons boosts bombs...
gnome pyromaniacs start with a spell like ability CL = character level +1 and a +1 level boost to bomb damage.
He will get the damage output of an alchemist 1 level higher when using an alchemist bombs that deal fire damage.
Which is what I said, FLite was talking specifically about bomb damage so that's all I bothered to mention.
I actually just checked, and apparently the trait 'Touched by Divinity' gives you access to a 1st level domain spell with a CL equal to your character level so I suppose that works to.Not quite. That would only work if the domain spell in question was an arcane spell. However, I believe that since were talking about a trait called, "Touched by Divinity" (which I cannot find on the PRD) it is referring to Cleric/Druid domains. As far as I know all spells on domains are divine spells, not arcane, even if they emulate arcane spells. Otherwise the spells would be subject to arcane spell failure chance when cast by the cleric or druid. So, no, I don't think Touched by Divinity will let you qualify because you will never pick up an arcane spell.When a spell is being cast from a divine spellcasting class's spell slot, it becomes divine. This has always been the case: the nature of the class doing the casting determines whether it's arcane/divine. However, an SLA isn't being cast by the class, it's being cast independently of that. Per the FAQ, an SLA's divine/arcane designation uses the class hierarchy that starts with sorc/wizard.
So casting burning hands is always going to be arcane, unless you're casting it with a divine spell slot.
Woah...I think you're right but that is a damned wierd interaction.
You get to pick a spell from a domain, the domain spells are all divine for casters. But becasue you cast the domain spell as a spell like ability you then refer to the FAQ which says you count wizard/sorcerer for determining if it's arcane or divine. Which means any spell that appears on both wizard/sorcerer list and cleric/druid lists will become a arcane SLA. That's weird. Totally counter intuitive to me, and more reason why I hate that FAQ.
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To me, it's more like domains are weird for making arcane spells divine in the first place. Making it an SLA actually puts it back where it started all along. It's not like it's taking bless or divine favor and making it arcane, it's taking a spell like burning hands that was already arcane before the domain got a hold of it, and restoring its original arcane-ness.
Makes total sense to me, and I personally wouldn't want it any other way.
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You know, some deities have the magic domain, with the subdomain of "arcane". Just sayin'. ;)
Of the main Golarion deities, whom besides Nethys?
(Also, I'm at work so I can't look at most links right now).
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If they have access to a spell like ability that is arcane, the ruling would allow this. The alchemist still doesn't have caster levels though, as that is what prevents it from taking item creation feats.
Actually, arcane strike never specifies that you have to use the caster level of the qualifying spell ablity as the caster level for the damage bonus. By RAW, you could have an arcane SLA, then use your divine caster level for the damage bonus.
AND
Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
The alchemist magic is considered arcane and they do have a caster level, even though they do not actually cast spells.
By RAW, an alchemist with Magical Knack would qualify for Arcane Strike, and they would be able to use it at their alchemist level for the Arcane Strike damage modifier.
By RAI, it is a little too munchkin for my tastes, and makes the TWF beastmorph vivisectionist even more broken.
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Charender, I believe that that bit about caster level only applies for purposes of his extracts. Because there was an FAQ stating they don't have a caster level for the purpose of crafting items, it would seem in general they don't have a caster level except for effects related to their extracts.
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Charender, I believe that that bit about caster level only applies for purposes of his extracts. Because there was an FAQ stating they don't have a caster level for the purpose of crafting items, it would seem in general they don't have a caster level except for effects related to their extracts.
Interesting, RAW, you are correct, although in the FAQ, it appears they are going to change that because it goes against RAI.
All of which makes the RAW even sillier because by RAW a druid with an arcane SLA can get Arcane Strike and use their divine caster level for the damage bonus.
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So casting burning hands is always going to be arcane, unless you're casting it with a divine spell slot.
Along the same lines, spells gained from a domain dont count for spell completion items as they arent on your spell list
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All of which makes the RAW even sillier because by RAW a druid with an arcane SLA can get Arcane Strike and use their divine caster level for the damage bonus.
The developers assumed people would use some form of common sense when applying the rules.. unfortunately that does not appear to happen most of the time on the rules forum.
The ruling about SLAs gave an example of needing a specific spell, not a general "arcane spells". People are taking the ruling a little out of the scope of the question that was asked. Also the arcane strike says "spells" not spell, so technically if someone could only SLA a single arcane spell they couldnt qualify for it since they can cant cast arcane "spells" only and arcane "spell"It is pretty clear what the feat was intended to require and people are just trying to make a loophole because of an answer to specific case regarding access to a specific spell to qualify for something.
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Your damage would go up 1 level sooner, nothing to get too excited about but it's not terrible.And even better, bombs are weapons, and any feat that damage boosts weapons boosts bombs...
gnome pyromaniacs start with a spell like ability CL = character level +1 and a +1 level boost to bomb damage.
Pyromaniac:Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and when determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage (this ability does not give gnomes early access to level-based powers, only affecting the powers they could use without this ability).
Gnomes with Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, produce flame. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level; the DCs are Charisma-based. This racial trait replaces the gnome magic and illusion resistance racial traits.The caster level is equal to the character level of the gnome ([ suppose, as we don't have a class called "gnome" :P ), the spells are a mix of arcane and divine (druidical) spells, so they can be assumed to be arcane SLA and qualify him for arcane strike at Character level.
Not at Character level+1 as he is not using a spell with the fire descriptor when using arcane strike.
He will get the damage output of an alchemist 1 level higher when using an alchemist bombs that deal fire damage.
Yes, but the gnome *is* using a spell with the fire descriptor when he uses his "Produce Flame" SLA, so his Produce Flame Caster level is total level + 1, So for arcane strike purposes, he possesses a caster level = character level +1
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All of which makes the RAW even sillier because by RAW a druid with an arcane SLA can get Arcane Strike and use their divine caster level for the damage bonus.The developers assumed people would use some form of common sense when applying the rules.. unfortunately that does not appear to happen most of the time on the rules forum.
The ruling about SLAs gave an example of needing a specific spell, not a general "arcane spells". People are taking the ruling a little out of the scope of the question that was asked. Also the arcane strike says "spells" not spell, so technically if someone could only SLA a single arcane spell they couldnt qualify for it since they can cant cast arcane "spells" only and arcane "spell"
It is pretty clear what the feat was intended to require and people are just trying to make a loophole because of an answer to specific case regarding access to a specific spell to qualify for something.
Except didn't the designers say that the specific example they were going to use for SLA = arcane spell was a rogue with magical talent qualifying for Arcane Strike?
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All of which makes the RAW even sillier because by RAW a druid with an arcane SLA can get Arcane Strike and use their divine caster level for the damage bonus.The developers assumed people would use some form of common sense when applying the rules.. unfortunately that does not appear to happen most of the time on the rules forum.
The ruling about SLAs gave an example of needing a specific spell, not a general "arcane spells". People are taking the ruling a little out of the scope of the question that was asked. Also the arcane strike says "spells" not spell, so technically if someone could only SLA a single arcane spell they couldnt qualify for it since they can cant cast arcane "spells" only and arcane "spell"
It is pretty clear what the feat was intended to require and people are just trying to make a loophole because of an answer to specific case regarding access to a specific spell to qualify for something.
The design team does not consider a prerequisite or requirement of "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells" to literally mean "ability to cast at least two or more 1st-level arcane spells."
Being able to cast one spell of that type and level meets the prerequisite or requirement (if the prerequisite or requirement was intended to mean "two or more," it would say that, or use language like "at least two").
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Yes, but the gnome *is* using a spell with the fire descriptor when he uses his "Produce Flame" SLA, so his Produce Flame Caster level is total level + 1, So for arcane strike purposes, he possesses a caster level = character level +1Your damage would go up 1 level sooner, nothing to get too excited about but it's not terrible.And even better, bombs are weapons, and any feat that damage boosts weapons boosts bombs...
gnome pyromaniacs start with a spell like ability CL = character level +1 and a +1 level boost to bomb damage.
Pyromaniac:Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and when determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage (this ability does not give gnomes early access to level-based powers, only affecting the powers they could use without this ability).
Gnomes with Charisma of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, produce flame. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level; the DCs are Charisma-based. This racial trait replaces the gnome magic and illusion resistance racial traits.The caster level is equal to the character level of the gnome ([ suppose, as we don't have a class called "gnome" :P ), the spells are a mix of arcane and divine (druidical) spells, so they can be assumed to be arcane SLA and qualify him for arcane strike at Character level.
Not at Character level+1 as he is not using a spell with the fire descriptor when using arcane strike.
He will get the damage output of an alchemist 1 level higher when using an alchemist bombs that deal fire damage.
No, he is not using a spell when activating arcane strike, even if it cast a spell with the fire descriptor in the same round.
The + 1 level is a temporary bonus that apply only to the casting of that particular spell.|
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Hmm. Our hypothetical gnome alchemist has a caster level for racial SLAs and can cast extracts. Does this mean he can take crafting feats qualified by his racial SLAs and use his extracts to craft items?
For the item that require you to have a memorize/know spell when making them (Spell Completion and Spell Trigger like scroll and wands) I don't think so, the extracts aren't memorized or know spells (potions are a explicit exception for the alchemist).
When making other items he can take +5 like every other class. Again extracts aren't spells, so RAW they don't seem to fulfill the prerequisite.
That said I think that almost any GM that allow item crafting will allow you to use alchemical extracts to fulfill the requirements of items that aren't Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items.
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The developers assumed people would use some form of common sense when applying the rules.. unfortunately that does not appear to happen most of the time on the rules forum.
...
It is pretty clear what the feat was intended to require and people are just trying to make a loophole because of an answer to specific case regarding access to a specific spell to qualify for something.
You heard it here first: the Pathfinder Design Team lacks common sense and is exploiting a loophole!
;)
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Meh, I've just been wanting to make an alchemist with Arcane Strike for a VERY long time. Still crossing my fingers and hoping that alchemists eventually get caster levels :)
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The developers assumed people would use some form of common sense when applying the rules.. unfortunately that does not appear to happen most of the time on the rules forum.
...
It is pretty clear what the feat was intended to require and people are just trying to make a loophole because of an answer to specific case regarding access to a specific spell to qualify for something.You heard it here first: the Pathfinder Design Team lacks common sense and is exploiting a loophole!
;)
Second, Jiggy, second. I was ahead of you by 4 posts
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Hmm. Our hypothetical gnome alchemist has a caster level for racial SLAs and can cast extracts. Does this mean he can take crafting feats qualified by his racial SLAs and use his extracts to craft items?
By the RAW, no.
The alchemist's ability to use their extracts as spell components when brewing potions is a specific exception that is made for the alchemist and only applies to brewing potions. The general rule is that extracts are not spells, and thus an alchemist cannot use extracts as spell components when crafting anything other than potions.
As an interesting aside, it would seem that a racial SLA with scaling caster level is an easy and viable way to bypass the need for the master craftsman feat. A tiefling rogue would be able to craft arms and armor better than a human fighter with master craftsman.
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I actually meant his post as where we heard first that the designers are going against common sense and exploiting a loophole. :)
I had read some of his early stuff where he was saying SLAs are not spells, but looks like they did a 180 and now SLAs are spells...
So to take this a step farther, if I have UMD and a scroll of magic missile that means I can qualify for Arcane Strike since I can cast an arcane spell?
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have a question.
People seem sure that a gnome of any class would qualify for the Arcane Strike feat due to getting SLAs from the Gnome Magic racial trait. However, Gnome Magic states:
"The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level."
That would seem to indicate that the effects themselves, rather than the gnome, have caster levels.
If this were true, the gnome wouldn't qualify for Arcane Strike. His Gnome Magic SLAs might, but SLAs don't get feats.
Right?
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have a question.
People seem sure that a gnome of any class would qualify for the Arcane Strike feat due to getting SLAs from the Gnome Magic racial trait. However, Gnome Magic states:
"The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level."
That would seem to indicate that the effects themselves, rather than the gnome, have caster levels.
If this were true, the gnome wouldn't qualify for Arcane Strike. His Gnome Magic SLAs might, but SLAs don't get feats.
Right?
That's what the FAQ about SLAs talked about. Since the SLAs have a caster level then the gnome has an effective caster level for feats.
Also, all SLAs are assumed to be arcane unless noted otherwise. Even divine spell SLAs.
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"The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level."That would seem to indicate that the effects themselves, rather than the gnome, have caster levels.
If this were true, the gnome wouldn't qualify for Arcane Strike. His Gnome Magic SLAs might, but SLAs don't get feats.
Right?
Wrong, you're inventing distinctions that are not there. Even if we go with your interpretation, the FAQ on SLAs brings the CL home to the Gnome.
Also, all SLAs are assumed to be arcane unless noted otherwise. Even divine spell SLAs.
That's not what the FAQs sat. Current state of the rules is that SLAs granted by a casting class are the same flavor as the class, then you go through the wizard/cleric/bard/druid hierarchy from the Bestiary definition of SLA, and if it's still unresolved, it's arcane (unless there's a good reason it should be divine). There was a period of time where the hierarchy was used to determine spell level and version, but anything on an arcane list was arcane, and that produced silly results.
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The FAQ cited by Pupsocket:
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
For spell-like abiities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.
Edit 7/15/13: Wording changed match the precedent in the universal monster rules for spell-like abilities.
Edit 9/23/13: Wording updated to clarify racial/type SLAs vs. class SLAs.
It is part of the CRB FAQs.
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So -- I'm just making sure here -- it is the OFFICIAL ruling of the Paizo team that a gnome alchemist should be able to qualify for the Arcane Strike feat, using his alchemist (or other class) level as his caster level for purposes of the Arcane Strike feat. This is because of the Gnome Magic racial trait, which grants several cantrips as SLAs (or, alternatively, the Pyromaniac alternate gnome racial trait). Correct?
Of course I would assume that a gnome with insufficient charisma to have the SLAs granted by Gnome Magic or Pyromaniac would be unable to use those racials to qualify for Arcane Strike.
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Holy necromancy batman
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bombs and adding arcane strike .. with pointblank means their splash minimal damage gets a big boost compared .
so i realy hope the gnome pyromaniac gets the boost ..
If they haven't by now, you know, 5 years later, then they probably never will...
