Duke of Dosh's page

This seems like the best place to ask- can a Menhir Guardian Monk's claws benefit from 'Shifter's Edge'? I've got a feeling the answer is no, but it'd be a nice way to use Shifter's Edge

Duke of Dosh wrote:

Not to sound like an ass, but you do realize that neither his Hunter, nor his Druid, had any spells involved in it right? The only reason the Warrior (not Fighter) uses Scrolls is because there's no other way it'll work, and he wanted to show that even someone shapeshifting through a consumable item, with almost no class features, can perform at the same level as a Shifter.

No character in his comparisons (save the Warrior and his Scrolls) goes in pre-buffing, casting any spells, or consuming any potions
He, and the rest of us know this is a party-based game. That's painfully obvious. He's pointing out how horridly underwhelming the class is.

While I think the point still stands, the shifter is certainly underperforming, unless I'm reading his stats wrong the druid has cat's grace and barkskin, and the hunter has barkskin.

Ah, that's on me then. Though, I think the AC buffs could be removed, and the comparisons still work out

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but that fighter comparison might be the lamest one I've seen. It's lame for the scrolls, but it's also lame because in all of these scenarios we're fine buffing the class you're comparing the shifter too but never the shifter?

Half of these comparisons generally assume infinite time and preparation and ignore the fact that Pathfinder is inherently a team game. Can a fully buffed druid match or beat a Shifter in some kind of weird 1 combat death match? Sure. Feral Hunter? Sure. I'm sure we could build a Totem Skald that can do it too. But that's honestly pretty irrelevant in a lot of Pathfinder (caveat: your personal experiences may differ). You're almost never going it alone, have perfect knowledge, perfect prep, or anything of the sort.

There's like half a dozen ways to conceptualize a shape shifting warrior already. The one that didn't exist was the full-BAB one. I really don't know if this is all that great of a class, but I can absolutely see it being a totally reasonable fill if you've got a party of mostly casters or support and needs a front-liner who doesn't want to deal with spells. Expectations not met hand-waving aside, take a deep breath and at least try to remain objective.

Not to sound like an ass, but you do realize that neither his Hunter, nor his Druid, had any spells involved in it right? The only reason the Warrior (not Fighter) uses Scrolls is because there's no other way it'll work, and he wanted to show that even someone shapeshifting through a consumable item, with almost no class features, can perform at the same level as a Shifter.

Painful Bugger wrote:

I saw somewhere that someone wanted comparison builds between classes. Challenge accepted.

Thank you for your effort Painful Bugger. The comparison truly is painful!

Yeah, it is. Especially when you take into account that the Druid and Hunter can't use much of their spellcasting as he made them- even without it, they outstrip the Shifter quite thoroughly

Duke of Dosh wrote:

MrBear wrote:

To be fair, if we start comparing any full attack class to their caster equivalent we usually come up lacking. I don't know why shifter was expected to buck the trend.

Snark aside, the apparent lack of shifting options feels like the biggest weakness of the design, especially along side the limited availability of buff effects other classes get for free makes this feel bad. Trying to put an idea together and I keep coming back to "This feels like an inferior version of x." It never feels like it stands on its own.

The issue here is, if you compare a Druid or a Feral Hunter, shapeshifting combat wise (read: no spells taken into account) to a Shifter, they /still/ come out ahead. They get more options sooner, and they get better abilities faster. Feral Hunter and Druid get Pounce+Rake at Level 8 compared to a Shifter's 15.

It's partially why I did a dump wisdom stat Druid for comparison. Wild empathy, track, woodland stride, trackless step are kinda just tack on abilities. Most of the time you won't notice them or they never come up in play but nice flavor options to have. Defensive Instinct is okay I guess, maybe it's a good patch until Shifter gets wild armor + shield, it still makes the class rather MAD. I still say it should've had a scaling natural armor bonus or some other defensive ability.

When you get down to it both Aspects and Wildshape are one really complicated class ability that ultimately function like a limited version of a Cavalier's orders and depending on the form you're in you completely invalidate Shifter's claws until 13th level by the time the damage starts outpacing the base forms. So you end up with alot of essentially dead levels for this class. Nothing really amazing changing for several levels at a time unless you take a amazing feat combination.

I hadn't even realized that until you mentioned it, but yeah, dumping Wisdom makes it a really, really fair comparison.

To be fair, if we start comparing any full attack class to their caster equivalent we usually come up lacking. I don't know why shifter was expected to buck the trend.

Snark aside, the apparent lack of shifting options feels like the biggest weakness of the design, especially along side the limited availability of buff effects other classes get for free makes this feel bad. Trying to put an idea together and I keep coming back to "This feels like an inferior version of x." It never feels like it stands on its own.

The issue here is, if you compare a Druid or a Feral Hunter, shapeshifting combat wise (read: no spells taken into account) to a Shifter, they /still/ come out ahead. They get more options sooner, and they get better abilities faster. Feral Hunter and Druid get Pounce+Rake at Level 8 compared to a Shifter's 15.

Just took a quick look at the book; can someone please confirm I'm reading this right? i.e. can a 4th level shifter wildshape into a dire bear or dire tiger?

Yes, they can- albeit, in Tiger's case, limited. The Rakes don't come in to play until level 15. It definitely starts strong, but when you hit level 6, other options (as seen in Painful Bugger's posts) catch up, and by level 8, surpass it entirely.

Barring some easy to make and reasonable changes (such as Wild Shape being just like Druidic Wild Shape, but with Aspects providing a little 'extra), I'm not seeing how they're any better than anything else out there right now, and in many case are actually a downgrade.

Truth in Text: I'm not a 'crunch' sort of person, but I can get a 'feel' from a class and I haven't gotten that 'feel' from Shifter.

I can definitely agree here. It feels like it's lacking a core defining feature, you know? It feels like a mix of secondary and tertiary abilities, with nothing really giving it a defining feeling

The only place I've found it can do something particularly unique, is using Owl Aspect (Major) at level 8 to turn into a somewhat nasty hit-and-runner. But, there's other ways to do hit and run, I'm sure, and likely better ones

Duke of Dosh wrote:

And, completely left out of this comparison is some of the crazy spells Druid (and Hunter) gain access to. Putting those in'd probably imbalance things even further.

I'm no number god when it comes to Pathfinder, but I imagine taking Natural Spell, and then casting spells like Strong Jaw or Magic Fang/G. Magic Fang could widen that gap even further.

I completely forgot about Strong Jaw. Good lord that spell.

Duke of Dosh wrote:

Due to items like Bestial rags, a level 8 shifter should have three aspects to chose from and can pick the most beneficial minor aspect bonus.

A waste of 8000 gp in my opinion. Why should I spend such a large amount of money to feel like a complete class?

As for Rage and shifter wildshape you might as well multiclass Barbarian and never bother with Wolverine form. But at that point you might as well be a druid or feral hunter when multiclassing with Barbarian.

Oh, /yeah/. From what it looks like, dropping it on yourself's pretty much doubling the output from your dice, at minimum, average, and maximum.

Alchemaic wrote:

Inkfist wrote:

Yeah ignoring feats, and abilities like rage sure make things look like trap classes. By that standard barbarians and Fighters are utterly useless too...

What's currently being left off of the list for the Shifter in that comparison then? Bearing in mind it should probably be posted in the math thread.

Wolverine aspect notably gives rage and rage powers. He's also missing the feat for the extra scaling attack.

Due to items like Bestial rags, a level 8 shifter should have three aspects to chose from and can pick the most beneficial minor aspect bonus.

If we are comparing DPR shouldn't we be comparing the higher damage options? Tiger is a combat form yes, but it exchanges the damage and survivability of the wolverine for pounce, grab and an extra 10 feet of movement.

Seeing as the "Kineticist does less DPR than a commoner with a bow" did the rounds for a solid six months after release, shouldn't we be more honest in our comparisons and builds?

I imagine you were typing as he wrote up his own response, but he adressed an awful lot of this.

Inkfist wrote:

Yeah ignoring feats, and abilities like rage sure make things look like trap classes.

I haven't ignored them, Dire Wolverine form is the only one with rage abilities and even with Rage and rage powers you're still pretty limited. At most you get is two rage powers and sure that can get you pounce and another ability but only with the dire wolverine form, and only after something hits you. The druid and feral hunter are STILL doing more damage.

Bat form gives you great sensory abilities, hover, and flyby attack. But you only do at most a bite attack +1.5 your str modifier and the sensory abilities from BSIII are more then serviceable (and better at 8th level.)

Bear gives you improved natural attack (claw), hope you didn't take it already for tiger form already. Critical multiplier and awesome blow is clue but it's still not gonna be lots of damage compared to other classes unless you crit.

Bull form gives powerful charge, nothing else gives powerful charge. Good to see some scaling damage that's comparable to other classes. Honestly though a wooly rhino accomplishes much of what this form does already.

Deinonychus, spring attack is neat but you get it way too late to matter or build off it. Plus the druid and feral hunter can use all the natural attacks this form grants you already at 6th level. And why can't you use shifter claw damage on the foreclaws?

Falcon, neat scouting form but alas basic wildshape beats it out.

Frog, really gimicky. A druid could just wildshape into a crocodiles or shark or something else to accomplish her goals better then frog form.

Lizard, I don't know why anyone would take this.

Monkey, use it to wield large weapons I guess. Just get giant hide armor for a druid if you want to do that.

Mouse, you get evasion and improved evasion for a number of minutes per day and only if you activated it ahead of time. If you're not prepared for the time when you need the evasion then tough luck buddy. Not provoking attacks of opportunity is...

And, completely left out of this comparison is some of the crazy spells Druid (and Hunter) gain access to. Putting those in'd probably imbalance things even further.

I'm no number god when it comes to Pathfinder, but I imagine taking Natural Spell, and then casting spells like Strong Jaw or Magic Fang/G. Magic Fang could widen that gap even further.

Yeah ignoring feats, and abilities like rage sure make things look like trap classes. By that standard barbarians and Fighters are utterly useless too...

He did give them feats, actually. And, which ability(or, abilities) on Shifter did he ignore? It'd probably be easier to respond to if you clarified that a bit better.

Duke of Dosh wrote:

Inkfist wrote:

Painful bugger any reason why you didn't pump wisdom a bit more to qualify for the mutated form (Or something like that) feat at 7 giving you an extra scaling attack?

Looking at the feat again myself, I can imagine why not. The feat has a Wisdom requirement of 19. That seems like a great option for a Feral Hunter or a Druid, but a terrible one for a Shifter.

Oh I just was throwing something together and didn't give much thoughts to feats. I just thought of some stats a Shifter that's focuses on melee would choose and gave them to the druid.

BTW someone asked me to compare to Feral Hunter. Same stats and magic items up until 8th level.

25 point buy
Race: Half-orc
Base: Str 16(+3), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 12(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 7(-2)
Damage (min/avg/max)

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

Yikes. Well, at least I know where to turn for a Martial Shapeshifter from now on. I initially wrote off Feral Hunter for all the summoning-related stuff, so I feel pretty dumb now.

Except that he's going off a 25 point buy. starting with a 16, putting the +1 in it at four and grabbing a +2 headband for a few thousand gold seems a steal for more AC/Will saves/+ a full Bab scaling damage attack.

Yeah, it'd probably end up being pretty worthwhile. Shifter could grab it earlier, but I think the most it'd to is help them keep up with a Druid or a Shifter a little better. Once they got to level 9 (and grabbed it themselves) it'd fall back to the same gap as it is in his, I'd wager.

Painful bugger any reason why you didn't pump wisdom a bit more to qualify for the mutated form (Or something like that) feat at 7 giving you an extra scaling attack?

Looking at the feat again myself, I can imagine why not. The feat has a Wisdom requirement of 19. That seems like a great option for a Feral Hunter or a Druid, but a terrible one for a Shifter.

I saw somewhere that someone wanted comparison builds between classes. Challenge accepted. I'll compare the shifter to the druid, the class people have been comparing it too, at a few different levels where abilities come online. This is a quick throw together and I'm giving them the same feats, stats, magic items, and favored class bonus.

25 point buy
Race: Half-orc
Base: Str 16(+3), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 12(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 7(-2)
Damage (min/avg/max)

** spoiler omitted **

Yeah the Shifter is impressive with pounce right now but the druid is not far behind especially with his spellcasting and animal companion. Lets continue on to the next level.

** spoiler omitted **

Well this is interesting. They're about neck and neck...

Hey, I saw this one just a bit ago. It's really surprising how static the Shifter ends up looking. I got the idea it'd be like that from a once-over, but seeing it compared really hits the point home.

nighttree wrote:

My biggest question would be....given the level of disappointment in the Shifter....what are the current thoughts of the Dev's ? What's the current plan ?

I'm pretty sure they have to let more people do more than kick the tires before they have any usable data.

The shifter was designed for casual players..ie, not the ones that got a subscription already have the shifter and either stayed up all night with an excel spread sheet. I don't think they've seen the shifter yet, much less tried to use it.

I think it'd have been nice for it to have been outlined as a class for casual players, honestly. I think that could have gone a long way towards making people less dissapointed if they'd known not to expect much.

I don't really know what to think of the Shifter yet, but I suspect this book will be worth the pdf price at the very least based on the Animal/Vermin/Plant companions and familiars alone. I mean, that's an absolutely awesome list.

First off, there is, finally, an animal-companion compatible saber-tooth. I've been waiting for that for years. It's kind of a classic image in any prehistory-related adventure series, the barbarian hero and the Smilodon companion. Having Smilodons be relegated to out-of-reach Dire Animals when you could keep a Giganotosaurus as a pet always seemed really silly to me. Thylacoleo is a wonderful choice as well.

Also, Prionosuchus. What an excellent choice! We really need more palaeozoic creatures in this game.

Vermin Companions. I had always been really disappointed that all the vermin past the first Bestiary weren't companion compatible. And now, that problem is at least starting to be fixed.

All in all, I'll have to wait to see what I think of everything else, but overall, I'm really excited about the animals. Still waiting for an official Carnotaurus, though. Oh well, maybe Bestiary 7 will have one.

Yeah, the expanded companions list is definitely a welcome addition. I've been wanting to make a more prehistoric-themed kinda Ranger, and the Sabertooth sounds perfect for that.

A lot of us cheerfully pick up the flagship books as pdfs because *it's just $9.99*, or even less with a subscription. That's like half the cost of the other splatbooks, and yet you get all kinds of content. A hardcover can contain 100 pages of stuff that absolutely doesn't interest me, and I could still consider it a great deal if it has 188 pages of stuff that really does.

So... please... can we talk about the rest of the book for a little while?

Doug M.

Yeah, Shifter stuff probably could be spun off in to its own thread. I only dropped a comment in about the Shifter because it's what I'd been looking forward to, but the rest of the book deserves discussion too.

I get that you don’t like the result, but could you say it with less shouting? I like the writers and devs coming around to comment on things, and that’s kinda hostile.

There's no real shouting going on. I do think there's plenty of (rightfully) disappointed people, myself being one.

As far as things go, I expected the Shifter to be good at, well... shifting. Instead, it's a lackluster class that awkwardly tries to do things that other classes do better. It's got strictly inferior versions of abilities from other classes, along with a smattering of strangely-placed ones (Do they need trackless step? And, why put Wis to AC on a class with no other reasons to have high Wisdom?) Its main gimmicks, the claws, and the Animal Aspects, just aren't good. The natural attacks scale badly, and make poor use of its full BaB. The Animal Aspects themselves are really lackluster- niche bonuses such as Darkvision, bonuses to Acrobatics and Swimming, and ones that I feel would overlap ultimately (enhancement bonuses to Strength, Constitution, Dexterity). The fact that you only get five total by level 20, and that you're only ever capable of merging the Minor Aspects (to my knowledge), really just makes them seem bad. On top of all this, it's a Combat/Martial class... with nothing that really screams 'combat abilities'. It doesn't get Weapon Training, or Rage, or Bonus Feats, or a Combat Style, or Studied Target, or Favored Enemy, or anything that makes it hit harder, and hit better. Just the claws, which aren't even really that good (no innate piercing of DR/Magic? Really?)

I think the biggest thing for me that sold this as either a poorly put together(or lazy, take your pick) was the fact that once I finished reading it through, I went back over it to see if I missed anything. The class feels oddly empty, like it's missing a primary class feature, or a defining ability. It feels like they never went past adding secondary abilities. I mean;
Wild Shaping can't really be a Primary feature, can it? It comes online at level four, and is severely limited
It can't be Animal Aspects- their minor effects are too minor, and their major ones need a secondary class feature to be relevant
The claws aren't powerful enough to be a Primary class feature
And the rest are just QoL/Utility secondaries from other classes (Trackless Step, Track, Wild Empathy),

I rarely get excited for a book release, and I'd been looking forward to this one for ages, primarily because of this class right here. To have it be so poorly done, and to have it feel so half-baked, is just awful.
Well, at least I still have alternatives to scratch that Shapeshifting itch, like Moonscarred Barbarian, Feral Hunter, and Beast/Metamorph Alchemist.

EDIT: Credit where credit is due, though- I actually really like the idea of the forms growing in strength as you level up. Though some of them feel a little poor in this regard, there's enough strong ones that I think the idea was implemented pretty darn well, at least.

I'm really not the best at this,but here goes

For starters, bump skill points to 4+Int, and add skills like Acrobatics.
As for saves, I'm not sure. I feel like 2 good/1 bad wouldn't be out of line, but nothing really popped out at me
To get to the real meat and potatoes of it, I'd probably start with removing weapon Training, in favor of something like "Chosen Weapon" or "Favored Weapon". Starting at level 1, it'd grant a +2 to hit/damage, and increase at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. The main difference would be that you would be able to, with enough time (An hour?), change your favored weapon. You would be able to do this once a day at level 1, twice at 5, etc.
The second big idea I had was with weapon-specific feats. (Weapon Focus/Spec, Improved Crit, etc). At some level, the Unchained Fighter could maybe gain the ability to change the weapon to that of his favored weapon. I'm not sure when something like this would come online, or if there should be a limit on the number of feats you can swap a day, but I would say regardless of the limits it should take a full day to do so.
The third big idea/change would be to take Advanced Weapon/Armor training, and bake them right into the class. With the AWT, you could even take some of the unique abilities from archetypes of the original Fighter (Like Pole-arm Master's ability to attack adjacently) and place them in. These could be traded out too, at a rate of 1/day.
You'd still have your "main focus" which would be where your feats are spent, but it would allow you to switch between weapons somewhat effectively, and be the "Weapons Guy" to an extent