Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So what is your hurry anyway?
The LOOTZ MAN! Gotta go fast to beat everyone else to those choice resources on the perimeter of 'civilization'. Gotta beat the daily respawn rush! Also can't keep my bros waiting cause the found a sweet dungeon with more fat loots on the opposite side of the map.
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Coming from EVE where the only true "fast" travel was:
1) Get a faster warping ship (i.e. carry less stuff and learn to run faster)
2) Plot a shorter number of jumps and take risks by cuttitng through low & null sec space
3) Learn how to use a Jump Drive freighter or other Capital ship
4) Jump Bridge, like Jump Drive but on some sub-captial ships and can 'fling' non-jump drive ships of certain types.
Jump Drives being like Teleport of EVE, only you had land in LowSec (PvP open) space so ya had to have some friends on the other end spotting of trouble. Even then sometimes it took several "teleports" to go from one end of EVE to the other.
I never really saw people comparing that it took too long. The system they did have was an auto-pilot. Set it let it auto move you through High-Sec (safer) space, go take a bio (food, water, exercise, bathroom) break, come back and be where you needed to be.
That explained, "Faster" travel or automated travel would both be useful in the longer term. I'm less keen on the Devs stance on being attachable while in effectively Auto-Travel... it can and does happen in EVE but it often takes a specialized suicide ship(s plural when it came to dragging down larger freighter and battle ships classes) willing to get blown up by the Space Police to do it. Most of the time is was a fairly safe thing to set the auto-pilot when going form one side of EVE to the other and then just go AFK for a bit.
Goblin Squad Member
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1) Well i dont see the issue with 50 soldiers. I mean the big issue is taking on 50 soldiers, it doesnt matter if they are riding mounts, riding fast travel mounts, or walking. At the end of the day the issue is taking out 50 players, not their method of travel
The issue is that it hands too much power to major factions. If a major faction decides they really don't like you, they can easily harass you at any corner of the map, because it doesn't take them long to get there.
In Darkfall whenever a major battle happened half the sever showed up from all corners of the map. If you tick off Faction X enough it is guaranteed Faction X will show up in full force at all of your battles. This was because of their teleportation system.
It was common to control many small bases across the map rather than a single chunk of territory because you could easily get your forces to whatever city needed defense.
If it is instead a long and hard process to move troops from location to location politics are more local. The time needed to move troops means that it will be harder for factions to convince many of their members to go fight enemies in remote regions, and doing so will leave their own territory more defenseless. It means rather than seeing major factions claim prime territory in many locations they will set up nations that only cover a single area. That political outcasts can claim territory far from major nations and enjoy relative peace.
If fast travel allows me to quickly move an army anywhere on the map (Or to any general region.) in the time it takes to put together a raid in most theme parks then it will be just like Darkfall.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@andius
You are assuming that fast travel means, damn near instantaneous. If a horse allows you to cover say 15 miles while walking covers 10 miles, thats not that big of a difference, its a gain yes, but not that bad.
As to major factions hunting you down. They will do that regardless, only they will use teleport to move bunches of people around.
Also remember that fast travel will be scripted travel, so that it might not be the quickest way to get somewhere.
I do NOT want to see things as fast as wow flying. Horses are fine, because eventually there will be teleport or phantom steeds
I cannot see how adding mounts will cause the game to fail. It allows people to explore larger areas, get to other towns quicker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan's remarks on Fast Travel have left me with the impression that it could easily take 30 minutes to get from one side of the map to the other, and you have many opportunities to be kicked out of Fast Travel along the way by bandits hiding in Hideouts.
As to being able to "quickly move an army anywhere on the map", well, you're probably sick of hearing me suggest that there should be NPC armies that slowly move across the map, and that their presence should be mandatory in order to take out a Settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As to being able to "quickly move an army anywhere on the map", well, you're probably sick of hearing me suggest that there should be NPC armies that slowly move across the map, and that their presence should be mandatory in order to take out a Settlement.
I've heard you suggest it before but if you will recall what I said when we last debated this, I said that I don't want NPC's to be so important as to make player involvement meaningless, and you consented that was a good point.
It may take require NPCs to take a fort (I support this as well) but if Group A and their NPC army is fighting Group B and their NPC army, and a massive player army shows up to support player A that should still make a HUGE difference.
@leperkhan- Despite it's existence in the P&P I have argued against the inclusion of long range teleportation in the MMO the entire time for that very reason. Teleportation in PFO should be similar to cynosural fields in EVE. Short range, as in within a hex or maybe a 1-2 hex range, and with major training and costs involved. Anything else will drastically alter wars, trade, travel, etc. in a seriously negative fashion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simple easy vote here guys. This vote is for what system first. Being faster travel is a convenience, and pets are an integral part of several core classes, I am voting for pets. Familiars, ranger/druid companions, paladin's mount should all be pets. Let's vote on scrolls or arcane magic as first in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simple easy vote here guys. This vote is for what system first. Being faster travel is a convenience, and pets are an integral part of several core classes, I am voting for pets. Familiars, ranger/druid companions, paladin's mount should all be pets. Let's vote on scrolls or arcane magic as first in game.
Paladin's mounts would likely be both a pet and a mount, but I believe it takes a 5th level paladin to get a bound mount? Anyway it is not essential to paladins to have mounts from 1st level, and bound mounts will be useless until mounted combat is added anyway (And Lee has stated that mounts/fast travel do NOT come with mounted combat.)
I think this really enforces my point. The first big map expansion should either come with or be immediately proceeded by mounts and mounted combat.
I think the best way to do it would be to add mounts/mounted combat in the last patch before the map expansion. The map will feel really small when that is done, but if they announce the next patch is a map expansion then then this is actually a good thing. People will really feel the need for a map expansion at that point making the developers seem smart and on top of things.
If they can time it so this is also around the time people will be getting high enough in the paladin role to get bound mounts it will be REALLY well timed.
So I say release the best with pets, add mounts WITH mounted combat in several months after beta release/around the time people are hitting level 5 in their roles, and gradually add new gods in the from beta release to full release depending on the popularity of those gods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I say if you want fast travel get teleport spells, teleport gates and platforms, tree travel spells. Of course won't happen until characters can begin casting these spells, and eventually start making these devices.
Remember the world is starting small, so the need for mounts is very low to increase travel speeds to get from one side to the other side. When the map grows in size after release, then mounts may begin to become slightly important to speed up travel in a larger map. Eventually when the map becomes huge, I sure the magical means will be available, reducing the need for mounts. mounts would be for the medium distance travel, magic for far travel, just place walking would be sufficient for short distances.
In most TT RPGs I have played in, mounts was a very rare feature, simple because they too much a hassle to manage. Often they vanish, with pleasure of the GM.
I have played many wizards, druids and sorcerers, and almost all had a companion that helped in combats, tasks, etc. These companions are a virtual extension of the character, and a key feature of the class. So not having companions, one is basically "sorry you can't have a wizard, sorcerer, druid, and perhaps ranger during the early enrolment period."
Paladins, don't need their mounts as much as other classes with their companions, as often the parties would go into areas where the mounts could not be ridden (terrain, or low ceilings), or were stuck at the back of the party as a result of limited space and being large, thus not contributing to the battle.
As for gods, Just having the gods name to select is good enough. Don't need graphics and models for them right at the beginning, unless GW has a crazy notion of having the deities come visiting the players when they select a deity to follow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If and when teleportation is included in the game, I would like to see some restrictions imposed on it.
These could be something like (just throwing stuff):
- Settlements put down a law prohibiting teleportation into the settlement
- Limited distance or mildly exponential curve on [spell cost]/[distance]
- Limited weight allowed per spell or limited number of players
- Possibly requires more than one caster to cast (steps away from TT, yes)
- Rare spell to come by and is not 'copyable' by magic craft
- Only made possible with preset places of power or something
Also wilder:
Limited number of teleporters in the world, say n% of all the spell casters. Teleportation would be learned through a special ritual which gives you the ability and 'pops' out the longest teleporter, who would then need to re-ritualize himself to get the power back. ( Crazy idea. Don't do this :D)
Teleportation is all fine and good, but an excess of instant travel soon makes the world 'disappear' and streamlines it down to a collection of minigames: Teleport to place A and collect cool leather. Teleport to place B, cure the said leather.. etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree in one thing Andius, which is that when they release mounts, they should release them fully. Not just a speed buff and then mounted combat months or years later.
However, in a medieval setting, fantastic or not, I think that mounts should be a core feature of any game.
As I´ve said in the crowdforger poll, the more they lean towards a system like in the mount & blade game, the better. And the more they lean towards a WoW system (speed buff / cosmetic buff) the worst.
Again, I´d rather wait for the whole thing than have a speed buff to "feel" like I´m on a horse.
Mounted combat (proper is not so difficult, just look at the game that I mentioned above which has simple but realistic and awesome feeling mechanics) is a must whenever horses (or any mounting something feature) are available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again, I´d rather wait for the whole thing than have a speed buff to "feel" like I´m on a horse.
A bit off subject here but despite being the basis for my "mounts make small maps smaller" argument, Mortal Online REALLY got the feel of their mount system right.
Mounts had an endurance bar. Running a mount fast depleted it and running them slow refreshed it.
They had 4 speeds which I referred to as "walk, trot, canter, and gallop."
They lost stamina at a canter and lost it quickly at a gallop. Most horses except those with very low stamina slowly regained it at a trot, and quickly regained it at a walk. Running out your endurance bar forced you to a walk.
Tapping W sped your horse up a speed tapping S slowed it down a speed (IMO holding S rather than tapping it should have stopped a mount at any speed.)
It was the closest to riding a real horse I have ever come in a game. I thought it was REALLY cool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan's remarks on Fast Travel have left me with the impression that it could easily take 30 minutes to get from one side of the map to the other, and you have many opportunities to be kicked out of Fast Travel along the way by bandits hiding in Hideouts.
As to being able to "quickly move an army anywhere on the map", well, you're probably sick of hearing me suggest that there should be NPC armies that slowly move across the map, and that their presence should be mandatory in order to take out a Settlement.
If I understand you correctly you said that NPC Army will govern all places?
i think it can't be so. Because this contradicts to the conception.
The conception of persistent world determines that in the game there will be places which will be controlled by only players (like in eve online). And of course player will make war with each other.
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I feel a lot of enthusiasm and impatience about the wars. That's why i totally agree with the topicstarter.
Protection and construction of new buildings is getting a lot more complicated with Mounts system. In other side it is a big big plus to raiders, nomads and bandits.
Armies movement is the big part of wars. And that makes any game or simulation interesting and demanding to operations planning.
But game developers have another opinion. I wish to hear it.
I think that there must be a vote about that.
A vote about not just ideas, but realisations.
This vote will open all problems which mounts system will bring.
PS: did anyone hear about mount system in minecraft? and why?...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lack of ability to ride a horse in a fantasy game isn't immersion-breaking?
Remember mounts will be released. I belive one of the big points is if they get the pet system done first then they can have more than just generic fast travel. They can have combat mounts, but to do that they need to get a pet system first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If fast travel allows me to quickly move an army anywhere on the map (Or to any general region.) in the time it takes to put together a raid in most theme parks then it will be just like Darkfall.
This got me thinking about Transformers: Dark of the Moon, and the space bridge. I think it would be awesome to have a very high cost, long term construction of a magical gateway that can move an army or even a settlement across the map, once.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the impact of mounts is really going to depend on some of the details of implimentation...
The initial map size, travel speed, size of the player base, cost/upkeep for mounts and travel locations.
If the initial map size is fairly small compared to travel speed and the player population then mounts/fast travel could be hurtfull to the game.
If initial map size is large compared to player population and travel speed then it actualy could be important.
Mount Cost/Upkeep along with travel complications could make it an interesting strategic game-play element as well. How much is it worth to be able to move more quickly or project power more easly compared to devoting those economic resources toward other things...like better weaponry or improved infrastructure/economic base.
On the pet side, one thing to consider is that it's not just a couple classes that might get a pet...it's every joe blow that might be able to purchase a guard dog. That could be a negative in terms of upping the ante on combat power between the haves and have nots....and making combat more complicated (and probably harder to get right) by including AI in PvP battles.
I could see arguements go either way on both.
Personaly I voted for Gods for 2 reasons...
1) It easier to add either pets or mounts onto an already existing character then it is to add a new God onto one (especialy clerics and paladins)
2) It strikes me as an easier addition to add Gods, that's essentialy just expanded content into already existing systems. Either Mounts or Pets are brand new systems that will significantly effect game-play. I'd rather GoblinWorks get more hands on feel for how the basic game-play features are working among the live populace before adding on significant new systems that could effect them...this buys them more time to do so.
I really don't have a pony in the race or a dog in the fight though...so I'm not very invested in which one ends up winning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the map of the Crusader Road.
In general, fast travel in Pathfinder Online will not be instantaneous. Instead, characters that are using fast travel are assumed to be moving at a rate of up to five times normal speed (that is, 20 times real time). Traversing a hex at this rate requires less than a minute. During fast travel, you will not have to direct your character—it will simply move to the destination you've selected.
So yes with fast travel as GW outlines it you can cross the map in well under 30 minutes while semi-afk. With walking it would be huge though.
IMO it will trivialize the size of an absolutely massive map, if they even have that full map finished by the beginning of crowd-forging.
I think in regards to mounts, I think they should be excessible at any point in the game, however depending on what kind of mount it is, it should range from a good chunk of money to very expensive. In a sandbox MMO like this, it would just make sense to have mounts at any point. Maybe there could be different tiers of mounts, lowest ones are slower (and less expensive) than the higher tier ones (faster, expensive). As for pets, I'm hoping it will be a separate skill branch. I would like my ranger to not have a pet (although that might change eventually).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think in regards to mounts, I think they should be excessible at any point in the game, however depending on what kind of mount it is, it should range from a good chunk of money to very expensive. In a sandbox MMO like this, it would just make sense to have mounts at any point. Maybe there could be different tiers of mounts, lowest ones are slower (and less expensive) than the higher tier ones (faster, expensive). As for pets, I'm hoping it will be a separate skill branch. I would like my ranger to not have a pet (although that might change eventually).
This thread is in response to the 2nd Crowdforger which is currently on hold. If mounts are added early on then it will be to the neglect of pets and dieties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for mounts (and mounted combat), but I think mounts are rightly a subset of the pet system. Player-driven mounts and script-driven fast travel are very different things, from a game design perspective, though they may share art assets.
I'm highly skeptical of the value of ever adding a fast-travel system, as GW has presented it. If PvP can knock you off fast-travel, and that fast travel takes a predictable scripted path, all you've created is a system for delivering people into ambushes. Player-driven movement can adjust to go around possible chokepoints and bandit hotspots, which naturally requires a great deal of attention. Fast travel is only useful if it makes it possible to relax your attention a bit (step away to the bathroom, etc.), but if you did that in the proposed system, you're more likely to be paying coin for the privilege of getting ganked. Compared to that, training a bit of stealth and having an animal companion to help defend you would be much better options for safely stepping away from the computer for a couple minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius, my respect for you grows every day. I agree with your OP, and all the subsequent ones. Since I plan to play a Wizard, having a familiar would be very helpful (if they include the Witch class, it is essential), though GW may include a bonded item feature. However, I hold out hope that GW will move quickly to implement all three options.
I also wish that GW had explained things better on the poll, as I was not aware at the time that Pets meant familiars and animal companions. Pets, to me because of the MMO's I have played, are fluff. I think for many people this is the case, as you correctly point out, most of us haven't played sandbox games (I do play Eve, but they don't have a pet system, and SF space game isn't the same as a Fantasy game).
I also like the idea of including as many of the Pathfinder deities as possible, simply for the RP opportunities, especially if GW finds a way to make the gods a part of everyday life (not just for Clerics, Paladins and Inquisitors, and to a lesser extent Oracles). They seem to have something in mind given the Twice Marked add-on. Since i am basing my character in PO on my Kingmaker AP character (Elven Wizard, NG, follower of Nethys with a Mongoose familiar), I'd like to make him as close to the dice and paper PC as I can. Having the ability to worship Nethys, having a familiar and owning a mount all will be helpful, for different reasons.
Here's to hoping GW surprises us and finds a way to implement all three systems fairly quickly, or dare I hope, at full launch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mounts will eventually be introduced, but I can certainly see them not introducing riding mounts of any kind early on through the story (ie, moving purchasable mounts to the area takes time, all the rideable mounts in the area have already been purchased, and generally none are available). On top of that, riding will be a trainable skill (I presume) that will take some time to get to so they will be in no hurry to implement rideable mounts right out of the gate.
That said, I can see many immediate uses for various pack and cart animals doing a lot of the heavy lifting (still need to be able to train up for these though). Horses, oxen, mules, dogs, and any other domesticated creature willing to be yoked or harnessed.
Anything that makes the world smaller is generally bad. Huge worlds that allow teleportation to any other place makes it small. (If you disagree, remember any game where you couldn't wait to get a mount.....when you did you sure could ride faster, but you missed a lot afterwards you would otherwise have not missed. Then you wanted to teleport, and when that happened you barely needed your mmount, and rarely went anywhere if you couldn't teleport there.) Big teleport gates mean many players will simply loiter around the gate until something at the other end happens that would be interesting.
Keep the big world big. At some point, perhaps when the early land grab is over and there has been another year or two for the crowds to build up there will be more land available. Maybe then mounts could be introduced (hey, we had to breed and train new mounts and give tamers locally time to hone their skills and tame the wild things in this area of the River Kingdoms).
Big worlds require more foresight and planning, and you can stake out an area you like and turn it into your home if you choose. Then traveling to an entirely different region will really feel like you have packed up your old kit bag and moved on.
Hold off for a while on rideable mounts....bring them in later after all the other basic mechanics have had a long while to perfect. They will drastically change things so it needs to be done right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With Ryan coming from CCP they will in all likelihood have a test server to test all the incoming patches and updates. The live server for EVE is Tranquility and the test server is Singularity. All patches and updates are released in Singularity first to give the players a chance to test the game systems and the changes being brought in. The longer term players play on Singularity regularly because they not only want to know that the new tools and mechanics work properly, but they also want to know how they will work and how the changes will change gameplay in their "live" environment.
I would bet Andius is correct as stated above mounts will be introduced alongside a large land expansion. All the players serious about their Guild/Alliance/Kingdom will be on the test server well in advance to learn the mechanics and explored the new land area as much as possible. I know that's where I would be given the chance to explore early!
(I'd give it about two years or so unless the early population is huge.)