Dagnew's page

Dagnew wrote:

By the way, from what book is Bloodriosette?

In Hell's Bright Shadow.

Thank you very much!

I know about Mangvhune, but I still find it confusing. He needed to find the precise location of the Soul Anchor, bathed in its energies, then was killed in the city above.

I am not sure if Mangvhune needed to stay and die in the city above in order for the Soul Anchor to work... Barzillai Thrune intended to stay the rest of his life in the city near the Soul Anchor, but, in his case, he wanted to become a Genius Loci, and had left his heart behind in the Soul Anchor, so maybe Mangvhune could have left...?

And the way it is described, Mangvhune was sent to the Abyss without being judged by Pharasma... which is weird, because Pharasma is the one who chooses which plane the soul should go... did Mahathallah make it so the soul would authomatically be sent to the plane with the proper alignment...?

I just hoped there was some mention of the Soul Anchor that explains it better somewhere...

By the way, from what book is Bloodriosette?

I know that Barzillai Thrune engaged in powerful magics in order to become a Genius Loci after death, so what he does isn't an example of how Soul Anchors work naturally.

I know that Soul Anchors are supposed to allow a soul to keep its memories in the afterlife, but, how does that work...?

Do you have to die next to the Soul Anchor, or can you bind your soul to it with a ritual and leave, or, can somebody else perform the ritual after you die...?

Even if the soul keeps its memories after death, it still has to be judged by Pharasma before being sent to its destination in the Outer Planes, and when Pharasma notices it keeps its memories, she will at best erase them before ending it away, or at worst, punish it by leaving it stranded in the Boneyard forever...

So, does the Soul Anchor bypass Pharasma's judgement too? And if so... what happens to your soul? Does it leave the River of Souls and stay floating around in the Astral Plane? Or, does it get sent to an appropiately aligned Plane?

What do you think?

I will say that they're unlikely to drill down too deep on "what exactly happens to you when you die, and why" because getting players to think about "how to I make sure my character reincarnates" is the sort of gamesmanship they want to avoid.

Why? The players already know their characters' behaviour and faith influences which afterlife they are going the end into, and that's no problem... Knowing they have the option of joining a religion or philosophy and reincarnate without passing through the Outer Planes would change nothing...

Unless you are speaking of giving the players a way to reincarnate with their full memories, skills and powers... I think that is really advanced stuff that would require you to train during decades under a guru... it would be a fine long-term goal for a PC, but not something that would happen during play...

I wonder how Pathfinder Isekai anime would go...

Well, Earth exists in the Pathfinder setting; it's were the Osirion gods went after Nethys took over...

The reincarnator/isekai'ed person would probably be a nobody in Golarion... they wouldn't have any class levels, and, unlike typical isekai, where the people from the fantasy world usually are pathetically ignorant and need the reincarnator to explain them basic stuff (like how to boil water to purify it, how to make soap from oil or how to domesticate chickens to get their eggs...etc.), people in Golarion are quite smart and relatively advanced... I doubt any regular person could teach them anything important, unless the reincarnator were an engineer or something similar...

And even if the reincarnator were an engineer or doctor or scientist, they would have to compete with magic... too complex medical/surgical/pharmaceutical techniques would probably be seen as too impractical ("if it takes that much time and effort, why not just pay a cleric...?"), firearms would need to be MUCH better than a primitive arquebuss in order to compete with the power of monsters, spellcasters and people with class levels, other tech would need to be made cheap and easy to produce if it were to compete with magic...

I guess relatively cheap, simple to produce stuff like analogic radios, telegraphs, telephones, stoves, fans and washing machines could be produced cheaply and in great quantities, if you managed to create a source of electricity first... Electromagnetic, steam and explosion engines too could be of use...

But anyways... if you aren't an engineer or similar, forget about becoming important... you are just a curiosity at best...

EDIT: I think there was an isekai in which the protagonist doesn't have any special powers, but he is a handyman and locksmith, so he can make a living and eventually retrains as a rogue and joins a party as the guy in charge of fixing their equipment, opening locks and disabling traps.

It would all make more sense if it were confirmed that the Samsarans and similar races were a product of Manasaputra influence (as now, we only know that Twilight Pitris almost screwed the Samsarans, and the Manasaputra Kumaras had to intervene directly to save the Samsarans...).

Let say the Samsarans' souls are all disciples of the Manus who have advanced enough along the path of enlightenment that they have learned their own brand of spontaneous reincarnation (James Jacobs has confirmed that the Samsarans aren't reborn naturally... they suffer the effect of something similar to a spontaneous reincarnate spell every time they die, but they always come back as Samsarans, and they lose most of their memories)... then they could keep improving until becoming able to join the Manasaputras (I think the Samsarans wanted to become Manasaputras, at least at the beginning; becoming other kinds of lawful Outsiders was considered a failure, which the Twilight Pitris almost cause the Samsarans to fall into... Jame Jacob has confirmed that modern Samsarans have different goals now, though).

I think it would be easy to attribute the Esoteric Tradition and the Sangpotshi philosophy to Manasaputra influence; from the point of view of the Manasaputras, who have lived through several multiverses (even the Manus; many of them used to Twilight Pitris who failed the test to become Solar Pitris and were demonted back to basic Manu status) the time souls spend as petitioners or outsiders in the Outer Planes is ephemeral... everybody they meet has gone through the full cycle countless times during the Manasaputra's own lifetime... they have been Angels and Devils and Archons and Agathions and Demons and Fae and everything else... so the Manasaputras don't consider the next afterlife of mortals that important... they all have been everything and will be again, anyways...

BUT! What is important for the Manasaputras is that the mortals they are teaching either learn enough to take control of their own reincarnation process, Samsaran style, or they at least reincarnate back in the same world so they can keep teaching and influencing them...

The Manasaputras wouldn't care if the Multiverse's lifespan is shortened because of the people who choose reincarnation and never merge with the Outer Planes... yeah, the Maelstrom will swallow the Multiverse earlier... so what? It was going to happen anyway, the Manasaputras have gone through it many times... what they care is that more and more people escape the cycle and join them in the Positive Energy Plane, safely away from the cycle of creationg and destruction, until all the soul in the Multiverse become Manasaputras and live all together in the Positive Energy Plane...

If an explanation like that were given, then the system would make sense... but I am not even sure they will reintroduce the Manasaputras...

Reincarnation-based religions work in our own world because most of them claim that, if you accumulate good Karma, then you will be reborn in a place that offers even better chances to learn the correct religion, so you will have a good chance to purify your Karma even more... Being reborn as a member of the right...

Found a mistake I can't edit out... auto-correct hates me...

Pathfinder makes a distinction between soul and mind. Your memories (mind) might not carry over, but your soul does. That's where the changes and improvements can accumulate, and that could include a greater propensity towards pursuing enlightenment.

So, if you are say Lawful and religious, you will have a tendency to be so in you next life?

Still a dangerous gamble... you could be reborn in Cheliax, and end worshipping Asmodeus precisely because of your Lawful and religious tendencies...

There isn't really an indication that reincarnation is "spin the wheel and end up anywhere in the universe". Samsarans aren't generally carrying memories of other worlds, for example.

Yep, but Samsarans are special. They keep their memories, and are always reborn as Samsarans. We don't know what happens to the rest of the people who believe in reincarnation...

If people from Tian Xia get to be reborn in Tian Xia, that would make a difference... they would get the chance to receive the right kind of education and make the right choices (from a Sangpotshi point of view). It would be nice if they confirmed that reincarnating souls have some influence on where they will be born...

It's also possible we'll be hearing more about how reincarnation works in the upcoming Tian Xia books, since samsarans are going to be a playable ancestry in them.

I hope so...

Many people were very kind to answer my previous questions about immortality in the setting, so I feel encouraged to ask something more...

I know about Tian Xia religion, about the Esoteric Tradition and the Sangpotshi philosophy, the Samsarans, the Lake of Mortal Reflections and the Manasaputras.

But I don't know how all this fit with what we know about the Afterlife in the setting... I guess anybody can enter the Lake of Mortal Reflections in the Boneyard, but, if you aren't a Samsaran or a Manu, you will be reborn without memories of your previous incarnation, won't you?

It that is so... how does the whole Karma thing work? Or how can you move towards enlightenment across incarnations? I mean, a Tian Xia person enters the lake, is reincarnated as somebody in Irrisen... or in Akiton... or in a planet in another galaxy... and since they no longer learn about Sangpotshi, they no longer care about purifying their Karma, and they may end becoming petitioners in some Outer Plane, merging with it, and being absorbed back into the Maelstrom, that eventually the soul back as a complete tabula rasa...

So it seems to me that, unless you are a Samsaran, or you somehow manage to get everything right in your present incarnation and become a demigod or a Manu or whatever is your goal... any progress you make is lost when you die...

And if so... wouldn't it be better to try to secure a good afterlife in an Upper Plane rather than reincarnate? I mean, you will eventually reset and start again as an unaligned soul in the Positive Energy Plane, but the same will happen if you reincarnate, except you may screw it really badly in your next reincarnation and end spending a million years in Abbadon...

Reincarnation-based religions work in our own work because most of them claim that, if you accumulate good Karma, then you will be reborn in a place that offers even better chances to learn the correct religion, so you will have a good chance to purify your Karma even more... Being reborn as a member of the right religion is considered more beneficial than being rich or healthy or socially privileged, so the better Karma you have, the better chances to keep improving it during the next cycle... Also, these real-world religions claim that everybody reincarnates, you have no other choice, so you may as well endeavour to get good Karma to get a good reincarnation...

But I haven't seen anything suggesting that's the case in the Pathfinder setting... so, am I missing something?

I wonder how the whole process works...

Well, the Marut profile mentions stuff that is far less radical than the Sun Orchid Elixir as being enough to trigger their intervention... "Extraordinary but natural means of cheating death, like murdering an entire starving town to save oneself or foreseeing and avoiding one's death via divination, are sometimes also punished."

I understand that Baba Yaga or the Whispering Tyrant would be hard to beat, being on the "kill demigods" scale of power. And, if Artokus has a deal with the psychopomps, then the Inevitables would defer to their authority... but the level 12 Lich in the Bestiary, the guy from the River Kingdoms who keeps coming back thanks to Reincarnation or the Vraxeris guy who keeps cloning himself should have been targeted and erased long ago...

I guess the most rational answer would be to assume that the Marut's profile vastly exaggerates how easy would be to trigger their intervention....

EDIT: About Groetus, it seems that at least the Positive Energy Plane, the Cosmic Fire and the Manasaputras will survive the death of the present Multiverse...

But I find Manasaputras themselves to be kinda confusing... Manus are supposed to preach to both mortal and petitioners, encouraging them to reincarnate as mortals so they can, after many reincarnations, reach enlightenment and join the Manasaputras... but when a being reincarnates, they forget their past lives, so they would lose everything they learnt from the Manu... will the Manu seek the reincarnated sould to keep guiding them? Or maybe the reincarnating soul has the option of choosing to reincarnate as a Samsaran and keep everything they learnt...?

Thank you! I wasn't planning on playing an immortal, much less one that lives to watch the end of the universe... I was just confused by the fact that you can't throw a stone in Golarion without hitting an immortal or an undead, despite the existance of powerful groups explicitly dedicated to their extermination...

My question about Groetus wasn't so much about the survival of PCs, but about the survival of anybody else... The Pathfinder Setting is BIG, and I had trouble picturing Groetus having the power to erradicate the Elemental Planes, much less the Material Plane, or to defeat the Outer Gods.

After re-reading some of the sourcebooks, I am left with many doubts, so I decided to ask just in case somebody had answers...

1.-Is it possible to escape Inevitables using magic like Mind Blank, moving around a lot using Plane Shift and Teleport, and hiding in a Demiplane?

I mean, Inevitables don't seem to be that effective... There are MANY high profile NPCs who have been undead for very long, Artokus Kirran has been brewing Sun Orchid Elixir for almost three millennia and a half, and there are whole countries full of undead... it doesn't look like Maruts are very good at their job, so maybe it is easy to hide from them of fend them off...

2.-Pharasma and her church and minions loathe undead... but, what about people who prolong their mortal lives using magic like the Sun Orchid Elixir, Clone, Resurrection and Reincarnation? Will they try to stop them? I haven't read any mention of Pharasmites trying to eliminate non-undead immortals...

3.-Concordance of Rivals describes how the multiverse will end: When the last mortal dies, Groetus will descend on the Boneyard, destroy it, then move to the Material Plane and wipe it out... but, do we know how much will he destroy? What about the Inner Planes? Will they be destroyed and re-created? What about the Dark Tapestry? Most of the material plane belongs to the Dark Tapestry (star systems are like motes in a vast ocean of Void), and the Outer Gods probably can swat Groetus like a fly... Will Groetus visit all star systems one by one, leaving the Dark Tapestry alone...?

Thank you very much in advance to anybody who has any answer.

The lore also says that the reject elixirs are given to the failed bidders as a partial compensation because they don't get their money back from the bid. So presumably there isn't a "infinite" supply.

I was thinking of something the PCs can make by themselves, rather than something so closely related to the original Sun Orchid Elixir.

However, this should really mean that it shouldn't have a fixed price. It should still be rare and though there are more than 6 per year, it's probably not enough that anyone with 10,000 gp can get it. Although it is worth noting that PCs wouldn't have that kind of cash until between 14th and 15th level (in PF2).

And PCs wouldn't want spend all their wealth on this item (probably).

And you have competition from merchants and other wealthy people (presumably).

Rather than players buying it, I was thinking of using it as a plot device.

If adventurers can afford it, you should probably have an excuse or two why rich people don't just buy up the whole supply to live forever.

My take:
Sun Orchid Elixir Reject Item 18
Rare Alchemical Consumable 
Price 10,000 gp
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
The annual auction for the Sun Orchid Elixir only has six winners, but attracts many bids. As part of the exclusive auction's rules, the losers don't receive their money back. The process for creating the elixir is complicated, and often produces failed batches that do nothing to unwind the ravages of time, merely halting its progress for a little while. Thuvia provides these as consolations to the highest failed bidders, with the number fluctuating year by year. Some choose to drink them, taking even a handful of extra years, but many would rather recoup a small portion of their losses to live their remaining life in some degree of comfort.

Drinking a Sun Orchid Elixir Reject stops the aging process for 1d4 years. This number is rolled in secret, as there is no way of knowing how potent each reject vial is. The unreliability is part of what keeps the price low, because regular users find themselves needing to check themselves daily for subtle signs of aging or else buy a fresh supply every year from a constantly changing pool of suppliers. Most choose to save up to try for a true Sun Orchid Elixir instead.

Unlike Crafting most items, there is no recipe or formula for creating a Sun Orchid Elixir Reject.

I can think of several reasons rich people aren't living forever thanks to this elixir:

-The formula is Rare, only a few people know it, and they keep it in secret, for whatever reason (like fear of Inevitables...).
-Maybe the formula was discovered very recently, and its creator is hoarding it so they can keep selling it for a high price.
-Maybe a PC with the Inventor feat created it.
-Maybe you need to be a 20 level character to brew the elixir, so only a few people in Golarion can do it, and they can only produce a few vials every year.
-Maybe is actually cheaper to buy a single true Sun Orchid Elixir vial, rather than buy a Lesser Orchid Elixir every year (because it's the only way to make sure you aren't actually aging, since you don't know if the effect will last more than one year); let say the Lesser Sun Orchid Elixir costs 10,000 gp per vial... you would need 400,000 gp to stay young for 40 years.
-Maybe you need very expensive and rare ingredients to brew it.

The original Sun Orchid Elixir, as described in 2008 Pathfinder Chronicles Gazeteer, was like this:

"Sun Orchid Elixir
Magic can do a great deal to extend one’s life, but most of these paths lead to a perverted form of undeath or are simply so powerful as to be extremely rare. As such, the sun orchid elixir is a valuable commodity. Those who imbibe a draft of the potent brew cease to age for 1d4 years, with no apparent side effects. Not surprisingly, vanity-seekers go to nearly any length to acquire the elixir, resorting to bribery, extortion, and murder. To curtail such troubles, the use of the elixir is outlawed in Thuvia (with the notable exception of the formula’s creator). Anyone found breaking this law is executed, and foreigners who bring such troubles to Thuvian shores face exile and are banned from further purchases.
Each vial of the elixir requires six mature sun orchids to create and 1 month’s time to ferment, although the exact formula used is a state secret. The vials typically sell for about 20,000 gp each, with the sun orchids needed to brew them often commanding a bounty of 500 gp apiece."

Okay, this version is FAR weaker than the current one. I think it should be attainable for players.

So, if the original Sun Orchid Elixir were refluffed as a new Longevity Potion... what level should it be? And its price?

Thank you very much in advance.

You only need to be intelligent enough and to be disciplined enough to put the required effort and work... so, if a kid is book smart and learns quickly, and they are hard working, they probably can be trained to be a wizard...

Going by the pattern, it would be a level 21 item, and therefore couldn't be crafted by a PC, since the first requirement is that the item is your level or lower.

That's the reason why I asked if making a wand that can cast a level 9 spell every week or every month would be balanced... A Magic Wand that casts a level 9 spell every day would be a level 21 magic item, but maybe one that casts that same spell every week or every month could be created as a level 20 item...

I wonder... could you balance a level 10 spell Magic Wand by making it cast its spell less frequently? Like, a Magic Wand that can cast Gate 1/week, or even 1/month?

One thing that has bothered me with PF2 in the contraction of what magic could do. Not in combat, but for non-combat related things. Interplanar communication was hard, but possible in PF1.

But PF2 magic has changed so much that those kinds of things simply aren't reasonable, and have significantly changed the possible narratives.

:(

Yeah, something Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e have in common is that they remove fun options in order to avoid abuse... like, in D&D 5e the Demiplane spell has become little more than a large closet, and you can create only one Simulacrum and only of an Humanoid or Beast, while in Pathfinder 2e they have made Demiplane and Simulacrum and Teleport and Plane Shift WAY less efficient and practical...

I understand why they have done that, but it feels like the Fun Police is punishing you for trying to have fun... like, "NO! You can't be a real mage and reshape reality! You will play as a murderhobo who travels the country by foot and explores dungeons!"

Dagnew wrote:

Taking into account that the basic Demiplane is the size of a large house, so it is more like a safe house rather than a country you live in (hence, you won't live there for longs periods of time.. too boring and claustrophobic)... well, isn't it a lot of hassle?

Considering that if I didn't have to go to work 2 days a week and go to the grocery I've pretty much only spent time at my house for the last 2 years or so due to Covid. I think you're idea that living there for long periods of time being untenable just isn't true. Or at least not true for all people.

I dunno... can a demiplane have a fake sun and sky? Because being trapped inside a cave with artificial light only for long periods of time would stress almost anybody...

Also, as other people have said, no TV, internet, phone...etc., would make it even more difficult...

Claxon wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Depends--does the demiplane have wifi?

You're a wizard, so it probably has the equivalent (although it does take some effort). Your standard low level communication spells wont work across planar boundaries but I'm sure there is something that does.

Technically, you could be a Barbarian with a legendary grasp of theology and your three warrior pals, each schooled in another aspect of the supernatural. Perhaps a monk who has studied ancient mysteries, a ranger, and of course a fighter with a grasp for arcanism. Mind you, doing this would be rather impractical as you would be trapped on the demiplane for the next week as you create a standing portal back to the location of your choice, or failing that simply learn the advanced spell craft needed to cast a Plane Shift.

Are there rules to craft permanent portals as magic items? I have found none. Even the Cubic Gate has been removed from Pathfinder 2e...

Besides the risk of getting your key stolen and losing access to your Demiplane forever (unless you use Wish to imitate Plane Shift) and how difficult to beat are the rolls to create it (again, unless you use Wish to duplicate the ritual, or you just happen to have a team with the right skills), another issue I find is how messy is the transition back to the Prime Material Plane (or whatever plane you are adventuring in) from the Demiplane, unless you have access to the Gate spell...

I mean, if you use Plane Shift, you can end up to 500 miles off target (the average is 262.5 miles), and if you use Heightened Teleport to get from there to where you have to be, you still can land up to 5 miles off target...

Taking into account that the basic Demiplane is the size of a large house, so it is more like a safe house rather than a country you live in (hence, you won't live there for longs periods of time.. too boring and claustrophobic)... well, isn't it a lot of hassle?

Say you use it as a safe vault and you want to store there the bulky loot you got... you have to cast one spell to get there, and two other spells to return within a 5 miles radius of the starting point... which means you have to enter the dungeon or whatever again...

Besides characters with access to Wish and Gate, the only efficient use I can think of is to use it to store REALLY valuable stuff you won't need anytime soon, but you don't want ANYBODY to find, like your clone, which you have left there under the care of a team of Simulacra...

Thank for your answers. Sorry to not have told you so before, I was busy yesterday...

Well, whether it is hidden in your mouth, in your pocket, in your armpit, or anywhere else - mechanically it is still going to be their Perception(search) against your Stealth(Conceal an Object).

The description for success/fail might change, but mechanically it is the same.

I guess so... but I think the searcher should have a penalty if the object is disguised as a tooth. I guess this is one of these times you have to either homebrew or roll on with some mechanics that don't make much sense...

Dagnew wrote:

How small can these keys be? Could a character create a tooth-shaped Demiplane key, then put the false tooth in their mouth to keep it safely hidden?

It doesn't really specify. I would allow it as a hmm... What's the right euphemism for 'flavor' here... personal game lore option.

I have doubts about it because it provides an obvious benefit beyond mere flavor: Thieves will have a hard time stealing it from you, and if you are captured, there is a very good chance nobody will notice the tooth and take it from you...

I have a couple questions about Demiplane keys...

Do we know if these keys register as magical to spells like Detect Magic?

How small can these keys be? Could a character create a tooth-shaped Demiplane key, then put the false tooth in their mouth to keep it safely hidden?

How about mutual chars trust this only a question about their interests if they converge the alignment don't matter. Good chars could follow a ritual for good interests or to help the others, neutral chars could do also for their personal interests or just for money, evil chars could for each own interest too or for some evil dedication.

That said, you really shouldn't be worried about meeting the requisite number of friends if you're actually a nice person. Most teams would gladly assist in a commune spell that aids their quest, even if it's the neutral good cleric getting help from the lawful evil assassin. The only times you should be having an issue is if you're, say, trying to make yourself a horde of undead or other similar thing.

As I said, characters of opposing alignments will work together to defeat a common foe or fix a problem that affects them all… but, what if you have a selfish goal that the others will probable not approve of? Would you help somebody who may become an enemy in the future to create a Clone and put it in a safe Demiplane, attended by Simulacrums…?

What if you DO want to create a horde of undead…?

There should be a way to play that kind of stories…

I like rituals feeling ritualistic. You need multiple people to help do the hudo that you do. I'm reading Plague War, a 40k book, and having a greater demon hop skip from one planet to another took a couple hundred people chanting in a circle. 4 buddies helping each other out is a fairly small ask, in comparison.

And I am okay with that… but in most of these stories you have one actual high level sorcerer or priest or warlock or whatever and a bunch of low level minions assisting the caster.

In Pathfinder 2e you need a group of high levelled characters to make sure that everything goes right when casting a high level ritual. If you hire run-of-the-mill NPCs or even summon extraplanar assistants (like, you use NPCs to cast Planar Ally, then use 10 level summoned creatures to cast Planar Binding and call 12 level extraplanar beings who will help you cast Create Demiplane or Clone) there is still a high chance they will Critically Fail and ruin everthing…

Even in these cases, or in events where you need a skill your party can't supply, if you befriend npcs, you should have a library of people who might help you.

Very few NPCs you know and befriend at the level you become able to safely pass the primary check can’t guarantee they won’t critically fail the secondary check.

Erm, aren't Wish and its cross tradition sibling spells capable of copying the effects of Ritual "spells" with 2 actions...?

Yep. And you need to be a level 19 full caster able to cast 10 level spells in order to do that. Everybody else needs to perform the Ritual…

But I guess casters could buy Wish or Miracle scrolls to duplicate high level rituals (how the hell is 10th level scroll common…?!).

The other thing to consider when performing a ritual, if that ritual is able to be performed by one person, and takes as much time as it does, what does the rest of the party do? Having rituals require multiple casters both supports the most common aspects of ritual performance and also allows the rest of the party to be engaged in whatever ritual is being cast rather than having to sit on their hands or require the GM to split them up into different activities.

I don’t see a problem there. You can cast the Rituals during downtime in between adventures.

I get why Paizo has made Rituals be the way they are: They allow non-spellcasters to warp reality too, and they allow spontaneous spellcasters to use them without having to waste one of their precious known spell slots into a spell that isn't of use during combat and is better used during downtime...

But non-spellcasters are usually just helping with one of the secondary checks, so they don't feel like they are the ones doing the reality warping, and while spontaneous casters don't have to learn the spells, they need the help of the whole team to cast the Rituals, so I am not sure that's a good trade...

Also, the Rituals as they are now kinda enforce the narrative of a group of four friends who trust each other and are always willing to help each other... what if you are playing an awkward alliance between a fanatic LG priest, a paranoid, ambitious LE necromancer and a crazy CN gnome sorcerer? while they may work together to defeat a common enemy, would they trust and help each other in their personal pet project? Would the necromancer trust the others to help him create a Demiplane and store there his Clone? Would the priest trust the others to do anything unless its absolutely necessary...?

I think the Rituals should be more flexible: They should start with a high DC, and casting time, gold cost and number of helpers should be ways to reduce it (similar to D&D 3.5 Epic Magic). So if you have time to waste and a lot of gold, you can do the ritual alone, but, if you are in a hurry, and you lack the resources, you can recruit helpers...

What do you think...?

This question probably has been asked and answered somewhere in the forum long ago, but I can't find it, so there I go:

Can you use Improved Knockdown while wielding a second weapon or a shield in your off hand? I mean, you don't have to make the Trip check, but, on the other hand, the text of the feat doesn't explicitly say that you don't need a free hand (or a two handed weapon).

I am not sure if the intention behind the feat is:

"You don't need to trip your opponent; if you hit them, they fall..."

"You do make a trip action, but if you hit your foe, the trip action succeeds without the need to make a roll..."

breithauptclan wrote:

This is also probably why the ritual is Rare instead of just Uncommon. ... the description and rules for it are very vague and require a lot of interpretation and adjudication from the GM and the rest of the table.

Doesn't seem all that vague to me. It literally points you to a table where you get your values.

A simulacrum will pretty much always have the following stats:

SIMULACRUM - CREATURE 4
[RARE], [MINION]; other traits as determined by base creature
Perception +11
Languages as base creature, limited by ritualist's knowledge
Skills as base creature, but modifiers are all +10, and Deception uses a unique modifier when determining base creature likeness
Str +3, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +3, Wis +3, Cha +3
AC 20; Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +11
HP 57-63
Speed as base creature
Melee as base creature +12, Damage as base creature
Ranged as melee above
Special Abilities none

A special ability would be just about anything found here, as well as any similar ability the GM adjudicates.

Why adding "skills as base creature", if all its rolls are made with a +10 modifiers...? Do you mean that it should be considered as trained in the same skills as the base creature...?

First of all, I'd just like to point out that the main purpose of simulacrum is to perfectly replicate someone and to deceive, so those other interactions shouldn't really be as important. With that in mind, I'm not surprised Paizo didn't mention the exact details of how all that works, since as long as it can convince others that it's doing them, like how the dragon's breath appears to work but everyone crit succeeds, it's done its job.

With that out of the way, how I would personally run it is as follows:
1. As a general rule I'd take a 4th level creature with similar features as the target and use it as a base for the stats of the simulacrum, ignoring anything past its resistances and weaknesses in the first section, and its standard attack actions in the main body of the stat-block. This is in no way clearly how it's done, so expect quite a bit of table variation on this.
2. A simulacrum is a 4th level creature, so no, it can't use the exact statistics of anything from the statblock of a wyvern, regardless of whether it's a special ability or not. Though, it can certainly appear to use them. If it could use the base stats for the target's attacks, then that means a small group getting their hands on a single drop of blood from a powerful creature on the black market or something instantly becomes insanely powerful.
3. I would allow a simulacrum to function as a flying mount, since flight isn't listed as an ability or action, but rather as a movement option. That being said, this is definitely an "ask the GM" kind of thing, since flight early on can really change how a campaign plays out, so there are definitely reasons to say it doesn't work.
4. For most of the other questions (proficiencies, cooking, etc.), it's going to depend on how exactly the GM decides its stat-block. See #1 for how I personally would do it.

Thank you.

But let focus on 4th or lower level creatures, which can be copied without changing their level...

For example:

A NPC Dancer.
A NPC Barkeep.
A NPC Farmer.
A NPC Librarian.
A NPC Inkeeper.
A NPC Mage for Hire.
A NPC Navigator.
A Drow Rogue.

Technically speaking, you only remove "special abilities" and leave everything else...

I guess their special abilities may be:

The Dancer's Fascinating Dance.
The Barkeep's Bar Brawler and Barkeep's Advice.
The Inkeeper's Font of Gossip.
The Librarian's Methodical Research.
The Mage for Hire's Spellcasting.
The Navigator's Chart a Course and Navigator's Edge.
The Drow Rogue's Nimble Dodge, Innate Spells, Sneak Attack and Quick Draw.

What they could do:

Basic melee and ranged attacks.
Acrobatics, Athletic, Arcana, Deception, Diplomacy, Lore, Nature, Perfomance, Society, Stealth, Survival and Thievery checks.

Do you think this is right...?

5. It wouldn't be able to be your assistant in rituals, as it has the minion trait without something like independent familiar, so you couldn't both focus on the ritual all...

Really? I thought that rule only applied to combat... I mean, if you can't order the Simulacrum something like "pretend you are the count's maid and learn everything you can", or "feed and care the horses while I am out" then what is it good for...? Not good for combat, can't be a spy, can't be a servant... its only use would be to be sent ahead as decoy if you suspect an ambush, and even then you would have to stay a few meters behind to give verbal orders every 6 seconds...

The text of the ritual says that a Simulacrum lack "special abilities", but I can't find a strict definition of what a "special ability" is...

They give the example of a Dragon Simulacrum, whose breath attack is a mere illusion with no effect...

But, what about a Wyvern's venom? It is listed as merely part of the damage of their stinger attack...

Do their claws and fangs work normally?

What about flight? Can you use a Simulacrum as flying mount?

What about proficiencies? Can a Simulacrum use a bow or swing a sword just like the original?

Can they cook or craft?

Can they make skill checks? Like, if you are doing a ritual, can you use a group of Simulacrum as assistants, and have them make the secondary Nature, Arcane, Occultism, Religion...etc., checks...?

Thank you in advance.

I feel like the only reason to complain is if you were one of those people who really relished in living in the grey area while being labeled as a paladin.

Hardly so...

Let say your Champion fights and defeats the warchief of the the orcish horde that is the main foe in the adventure.

The orc surrenders and asks for mercy.

Sanserae demands that you give him a chance to redeem himself.
Torag demands that you slay him.
Apsu demands grant him mercy once, but afterwards, if he doesn't redeem himself, it is your duty to hunt and kill him.

All three are perfectly valid choices for a Paladin, but if you don't do as your deity says, you are committing anathema, and you are screwed... I feel like your choices are being taken from you...

I'll also say if you want slot of the flavour of a Champion, but for some reason that doesn't include being a righteous paragon of your deity and cause, fighter with an archetype probably does the job. For example Blessed One or Cavalier.

But, are these practical choices? I have heard there are plenty of traps in Pathfinder 2e that create very suboptimal characters...

I am new to Pathfinder 2e, and I have been mostly checking the core material to see if it is worth switching to.

Something that has striken me is how strictly defined is the expected behaviour of Champions... when you layer the need to keep your alignment, to follow your Cause, Tenets, Edicts and avoid the Anathemas, it feels like a straightjacket...

Am I right, or am I overreacting?

Besides that, which deity do you think would allow most freedom to your typical LG adventurer who wanders around taking quests and bounties to kill evil creatures...?

Erastil seem okay if you plan to stay at your home village, being a decent person and protecting your neighbors, but he will probably get pissed if you leave to pursue adventure, wealth and fame...

Torag is similar to Erastil, with more focus on killing the enemies of your people.

Iomedae seem to expect her followers to be more "knightly" than other paladins, accepting duels and such. She also expects them to be temperate, which is kinda vague... where is the limit? are you expected to fast? can you wear flashy clothes? drink wine? own a fancy manse...?

Sanserae seems quite easy to follow at first glance... protecting your allies and healing the sick is something a decent person would want to do anyways... but she also demands that you destroy evil AND forgive repentant creatures... that may be hard to balance...

Irori demands that you perfect yourself, which is kind of a given to most PCs (they are becoming stronger all the time...), but you also have to help others perfect themselves, which can be a bother (am I required to take disciples...?), and you have to maintain self-control, which is kind a vague... where is the line? how ascetic are you expected to be?

Apsu seems easy to follow for a regular PC... you are expected to "Seek and destroy evil, travel the world, help others fend for themselves" and avoid to "Fail to pursue a foe who has betrayed your mercy, attack a creature without certainty of wrongdoing..."

Most LG PCs would do all of that anyways... but Apsu probably accepts few non-dragons as Champions...

Kurgess seems okay, but he is a bit too focused on athletic competition...

Horus and Ra seem to focus mostly on leaders.

Anubis seems to focus mostly on fighting undead.

Osiris seems to focus on agriculture and burials.

Thoth focus on knowledge and research.

Wadjet, much like Erastil and Torag, seems focused on the protection of your community, which may be hard for a traveling paladin...

Isis looks great... heal the sick? use magic to help the needy? don't be an a$@!$@&? Yeah, can do that...

Ma'at don't look too hard either... be honest and destroy monsters... the first part wouldn't be too hard, and PCs do the second for a living anyways...

Trudd seems easy to follow for your average PC... Using your power to help others weaker than yourself? That's basically the job description of a LG adventurer! However, Trudd is a dwarven god, and I don't know if he accepts non-dwarves...

Shizuru's dogma is kind of a mixed bag: protect nature, protect lovers, train everyday, be honourable... sort of like following the dogma of four different deities simultaneously...

Tsukiyou focuses mostly on helping the suffering ones... not a hard thing to do, but he probably expects his followers to spend a lot of time doing it...

I feel like Apsu, Isis, Ma'at and Trudd are probably the easiest to follow, but Apsu and Trudd are racial a gods (are they restricted...?).