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You only need to be intelligent enough and to be disciplined enough to put the required effort and work... so, if a kid is book smart and learns quickly, and they are hard working, they probably can be trained to be a wizard...


Matthew Jaluvka wrote:
Going by the pattern, it would be a level 21 item, and therefore couldn't be crafted by a PC, since the first requirement is that the item is your level or lower.

That's the reason why I asked if making a wand that can cast a level 9 spell every week or every month would be balanced... A Magic Wand that casts a level 9 spell every day would be a level 21 magic item, but maybe one that casts that same spell every week or every month could be created as a level 20 item...


I wonder... could you balance a level 10 spell Magic Wand by making it cast its spell less frequently? Like, a Magic Wand that can cast Gate 1/week, or even 1/month?


Claxon wrote:

One thing that has bothered me with PF2 in the contraction of what magic could do. Not in combat, but for non-combat related things. Interplanar communication was hard, but possible in PF1.

But PF2 magic has changed so much that those kinds of things simply aren't reasonable, and have significantly changed the possible narratives.

:(

Yeah, something Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e have in common is that they remove fun options in order to avoid abuse... like, in D&D 5e the Demiplane spell has become little more than a large closet, and you can create only one Simulacrum and only of an Humanoid or Beast, while in Pathfinder 2e they have made Demiplane and Simulacrum and Teleport and Plane Shift WAY less efficient and practical...

I understand why they have done that, but it feels like the Fun Police is punishing you for trying to have fun... like, "NO! You can't be a real mage and reshape reality! You will play as a murderhobo who travels the country by foot and explores dungeons!"


Claxon wrote:
Dagnew wrote:


Taking into account that the basic Demiplane is the size of a large house, so it is more like a safe house rather than a country you live in (hence, you won't live there for longs periods of time.. too boring and claustrophobic)... well, isn't it a lot of hassle?
Considering that if I didn't have to go to work 2 days a week and go to the grocery I've pretty much only spent time at my house for the last 2 years or so due to Covid. I think you're idea that living there for long periods of time being untenable just isn't true. Or at least not true for all people.

I dunno... can a demiplane have a fake sun and sky? Because being trapped inside a cave with artificial light only for long periods of time would stress almost anybody...

Also, as other people have said, no TV, internet, phone...etc., would make it even more difficult...

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Depends--does the demiplane have wifi?
You're a wizard, so it probably has the equivalent (although it does take some effort). Your standard low level communication spells wont work across planar boundaries but I'm sure there is something that does.
Technically, you could be a Barbarian with a legendary grasp of theology and your three warrior pals, each schooled in another aspect of the supernatural. Perhaps a monk who has studied ancient mysteries, a ranger, and of course a fighter with a grasp for arcanism. Mind you, doing this would be rather impractical as you would be trapped on the demiplane for the next week as you create a standing portal back to the location of your choice, or failing that simply learn the advanced spell craft needed to cast a Plane Shift.

Are there rules to craft permanent portals as magic items? I have found none. Even the Cubic Gate has been removed from Pathfinder 2e...


Besides the risk of getting your key stolen and losing access to your Demiplane forever (unless you use Wish to imitate Plane Shift) and how difficult to beat are the rolls to create it (again, unless you use Wish to duplicate the ritual, or you just happen to have a team with the right skills), another issue I find is how messy is the transition back to the Prime Material Plane (or whatever plane you are adventuring in) from the Demiplane, unless you have access to the Gate spell...

I mean, if you use Plane Shift, you can end up to 500 miles off target (the average is 262.5 miles), and if you use Heightened Teleport to get from there to where you have to be, you still can land up to 5 miles off target...

Taking into account that the basic Demiplane is the size of a large house, so it is more like a safe house rather than a country you live in (hence, you won't live there for longs periods of time.. too boring and claustrophobic)... well, isn't it a lot of hassle?

Say you use it as a safe vault and you want to store there the bulky loot you got... you have to cast one spell to get there, and two other spells to return within a 5 miles radius of the starting point... which means you have to enter the dungeon or whatever again...

Besides characters with access to Wish and Gate, the only efficient use I can think of is to use it to store REALLY valuable stuff you won't need anytime soon, but you don't want ANYBODY to find, like your clone, which you have left there under the care of a team of Simulacra...


Thank for your answers. Sorry to not have told you so before, I was busy yesterday...


breithauptclan wrote:

Well, whether it is hidden in your mouth, in your pocket, in your armpit, or anywhere else - mechanically it is still going to be their Perception(search) against your Stealth(Conceal an Object).

The description for success/fail might change, but mechanically it is the same.

I guess so... but I think the searcher should have a penalty if the object is disguised as a tooth. I guess this is one of these times you have to either homebrew or roll on with some mechanics that don't make much sense...


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breithauptclan wrote:

Dagnew wrote:
How small can these keys be? Could a character create a tooth-shaped Demiplane key, then put the false tooth in their mouth to keep it safely hidden?
It doesn't really specify. I would allow it as a hmm... What's the right euphemism for 'flavor' here... personal game lore option.

I have doubts about it because it provides an obvious benefit beyond mere flavor: Thieves will have a hard time stealing it from you, and if you are captured, there is a very good chance nobody will notice the tooth and take it from you...


I have a couple questions about Demiplane keys...

Do we know if these keys register as magical to spells like Detect Magic?

How small can these keys be? Could a character create a tooth-shaped Demiplane key, then put the false tooth in their mouth to keep it safely hidden?


YuriP wrote:
How about mutual chars trust this only a question about their interests if they converge the alignment don't matter. Good chars could follow a ritual for good interests or to help the others, neutral chars could do also for their personal interests or just for money, evil chars could for each own interest too or for some evil dedication.
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
That said, you really shouldn't be worried about meeting the requisite number of friends if you're actually a nice person. Most teams would gladly assist in a commune spell that aids their quest, even if it's the neutral good cleric getting help from the lawful evil assassin. The only times you should be having an issue is if you're, say, trying to make yourself a horde of undead or other similar thing.

As I said, characters of opposing alignments will work together to defeat a common foe or fix a problem that affects them all… but, what if you have a selfish goal that the others will probable not approve of? Would you help somebody who may become an enemy in the future to create a Clone and put it in a safe Demiplane, attended by Simulacrums…?

What if you DO want to create a horde of undead…?

There should be a way to play that kind of stories…

WWHsmackdown wrote:
I like rituals feeling ritualistic. You need multiple people to help do the hudo that you do. I'm reading Plague War, a 40k book, and having a greater demon hop skip from one planet to another took a couple hundred people chanting in a circle. 4 buddies helping each other out is a fairly small ask, in comparison.

And I am okay with that… but in most of these stories you have one actual high level sorcerer or priest or warlock or whatever and a bunch of low level minions assisting the caster.

In Pathfinder 2e you need a group of high levelled characters to make sure that everything goes right when casting a high level ritual. If you hire run-of-the-mill NPCs or even summon extraplanar assistants (like, you use NPCs to cast Planar Ally, then use 10 level summoned creatures to cast Planar Binding and call 12 level extraplanar beings who will help you cast Create Demiplane or Clone) there is still a high chance they will Critically Fail and ruin everthing…

Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Even in these cases, or in events where you need a skill your party can't supply, if you befriend npcs, you should have a library of people who might help you.

Very few NPCs you know and befriend at the level you become able to safely pass the primary check can’t guarantee they won’t critically fail the secondary check.

Lucas Yew wrote:
Erm, aren't Wish and its cross tradition sibling spells capable of copying the effects of Ritual "spells" with 2 actions...?

Yep. And you need to be a level 19 full caster able to cast 10 level spells in order to do that. Everybody else needs to perform the Ritual…

But I guess casters could buy Wish or Miracle scrolls to duplicate high level rituals (how the hell is 10th level scroll common…?!).

Perpdepog wrote:
The other thing to consider when performing a ritual, if that ritual is able to be performed by one person, and takes as much time as it does, what does the rest of the party do? Having rituals require multiple casters both supports the most common aspects of ritual performance and also allows the rest of the party to be engaged in whatever ritual is being cast rather than having to sit on their hands or require the GM to split them up into different activities.

I don’t see a problem there. You can cast the Rituals during downtime in between adventures.


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I get why Paizo has made Rituals be the way they are: They allow non-spellcasters to warp reality too, and they allow spontaneous spellcasters to use them without having to waste one of their precious known spell slots into a spell that isn't of use during combat and is better used during downtime...

But non-spellcasters are usually just helping with one of the secondary checks, so they don't feel like they are the ones doing the reality warping, and while spontaneous casters don't have to learn the spells, they need the help of the whole team to cast the Rituals, so I am not sure that's a good trade...

Also, the Rituals as they are now kinda enforce the narrative of a group of four friends who trust each other and are always willing to help each other... what if you are playing an awkward alliance between a fanatic LG priest, a paranoid, ambitious LE necromancer and a crazy CN gnome sorcerer? while they may work together to defeat a common enemy, would they trust and help each other in their personal pet project? Would the necromancer trust the others to help him create a Demiplane and store there his Clone? Would the priest trust the others to do anything unless its absolutely necessary...?

I think the Rituals should be more flexible: They should start with a high DC, and casting time, gold cost and number of helpers should be ways to reduce it (similar to D&D 3.5 Epic Magic). So if you have time to waste and a lot of gold, you can do the ritual alone, but, if you are in a hurry, and you lack the resources, you can recruit helpers...

What do you think...?


This question probably has been asked and answered somewhere in the forum long ago, but I can't find it, so there I go:

Can you use Improved Knockdown while wielding a second weapon or a shield in your off hand? I mean, you don't have to make the Trip check, but, on the other hand, the text of the feat doesn't explicitly say that you don't need a free hand (or a two handed weapon).

I am not sure if the intention behind the feat is:

"You don't need to trip your opponent; if you hit them, they fall..."

"You do make a trip action, but if you hit your foe, the trip action succeeds without the need to make a roll..."


Ravingdork wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
This is also probably why the ritual is Rare instead of just Uncommon. ... the description and rules for it are very vague and require a lot of interpretation and adjudication from the GM and the rest of the table.

Doesn't seem all that vague to me. It literally points you to a table where you get your values.

A simulacrum will pretty much always have the following stats:

SIMULACRUM - CREATURE 4
[RARE], [MINION]; other traits as determined by base creature
Perception +11
Languages as base creature, limited by ritualist's knowledge
Skills as base creature, but modifiers are all +10, and Deception uses a unique modifier when determining base creature likeness
Str +3, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +3, Wis +3, Cha +3
AC 20; Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +11
HP 57-63
Speed as base creature
Melee as base creature +12, Damage as base creature
Ranged as melee above
Special Abilities none

A special ability would be just about anything found here, as well as any similar ability the GM adjudicates.

Why adding "skills as base creature", if all its rolls are made with a +10 modifiers...? Do you mean that it should be considered as trained in the same skills as the base creature...?


Aw3som3-117 wrote:

First of all, I'd just like to point out that the main purpose of simulacrum is to perfectly replicate someone and to deceive, so those other interactions shouldn't really be as important. With that in mind, I'm not surprised Paizo didn't mention the exact details of how all that works, since as long as it can convince others that it's doing them, like how the dragon's breath appears to work but everyone crit succeeds, it's done its job.

With that out of the way, how I would personally run it is as follows:
1. As a general rule I'd take a 4th level creature with similar features as the target and use it as a base for the stats of the simulacrum, ignoring anything past its resistances and weaknesses in the first section, and its standard attack actions in the main body of the stat-block. This is in no way clearly how it's done, so expect quite a bit of table variation on this.
2. A simulacrum is a 4th level creature, so no, it can't use the exact statistics of anything from the statblock of a wyvern, regardless of whether it's a special ability or not. Though, it can certainly appear to use them. If it could use the base stats for the target's attacks, then that means a small group getting their hands on a single drop of blood from a powerful creature on the black market or something instantly becomes insanely powerful.
3. I would allow a simulacrum to function as a flying mount, since flight isn't listed as an ability or action, but rather as a movement option. That being said, this is definitely an "ask the GM" kind of thing, since flight early on can really change how a campaign plays out, so there are definitely reasons to say it doesn't work.
4. For most of the other questions (proficiencies, cooking, etc.), it's going to depend on how exactly the GM decides its stat-block. See #1 for how I personally would do it.

Thank you.

But let focus on 4th or lower level creatures, which can be copied without changing their level...

For example:

A NPC Dancer.
A NPC Barkeep.
A NPC Farmer.
A NPC Librarian.
A NPC Inkeeper.
A NPC Mage for Hire.
A NPC Navigator.
A Drow Rogue.

Technically speaking, you only remove "special abilities" and leave everything else...

I guess their special abilities may be:

The Dancer's Fascinating Dance.
The Barkeep's Bar Brawler and Barkeep's Advice.
The Inkeeper's Font of Gossip.
The Librarian's Methodical Research.
The Mage for Hire's Spellcasting.
The Navigator's Chart a Course and Navigator's Edge.
The Drow Rogue's Nimble Dodge, Innate Spells, Sneak Attack and Quick Draw.

What they could do:

Basic melee and ranged attacks.
Acrobatics, Athletic, Arcana, Deception, Diplomacy, Lore, Nature, Perfomance, Society, Stealth, Survival and Thievery checks.

Do you think this is right...?

Aw3som3-117 wrote:


5. It wouldn't be able to be your assistant in rituals, as it has the minion trait without something like independent familiar, so you couldn't both focus on the ritual all...

Really? I thought that rule only applied to combat... I mean, if you can't order the Simulacrum something like "pretend you are the count's maid and learn everything you can", or "feed and care the horses while I am out" then what is it good for...? Not good for combat, can't be a spy, can't be a servant... its only use would be to be sent ahead as decoy if you suspect an ambush, and even then you would have to stay a few meters behind to give verbal orders every 6 seconds...


The text of the ritual says that a Simulacrum lack "special abilities", but I can't find a strict definition of what a "special ability" is...

They give the example of a Dragon Simulacrum, whose breath attack is a mere illusion with no effect...

But, what about a Wyvern's venom? It is listed as merely part of the damage of their stinger attack...

Do their claws and fangs work normally?

What about flight? Can you use a Simulacrum as flying mount?

What about proficiencies? Can a Simulacrum use a bow or swing a sword just like the original?

Can they cook or craft?

Can they make skill checks? Like, if you are doing a ritual, can you use a group of Simulacrum as assistants, and have them make the secondary Nature, Arcane, Occultism, Religion...etc., checks...?

Thank you in advance.


Claxon wrote:
I feel like the only reason to complain is if you were one of those people who really relished in living in the grey area while being labeled as a paladin.

Hardly so...

Let say your Champion fights and defeats the warchief of the the orcish horde that is the main foe in the adventure.

The orc surrenders and asks for mercy.

Sanserae demands that you give him a chance to redeem himself.
Torag demands that you slay him.
Apsu demands grant him mercy once, but afterwards, if he doesn't redeem himself, it is your duty to hunt and kill him.

All three are perfectly valid choices for a Paladin, but if you don't do as your deity says, you are committing anathema, and you are screwed... I feel like your choices are being taken from you...

Malk_Content wrote:
I'll also say if you want slot of the flavour of a Champion, but for some reason that doesn't include being a righteous paragon of your deity and cause, fighter with an archetype probably does the job. For example Blessed One or Cavalier.

But, are these practical choices? I have heard there are plenty of traps in Pathfinder 2e that create very suboptimal characters...


I am new to Pathfinder 2e, and I have been mostly checking the core material to see if it is worth switching to.

Something that has striken me is how strictly defined is the expected behaviour of Champions... when you layer the need to keep your alignment, to follow your Cause, Tenets, Edicts and avoid the Anathemas, it feels like a straightjacket...

Am I right, or am I overreacting?

Besides that, which deity do you think would allow most freedom to your typical LG adventurer who wanders around taking quests and bounties to kill evil creatures...?

Erastil seem okay if you plan to stay at your home village, being a decent person and protecting your neighbors, but he will probably get pissed if you leave to pursue adventure, wealth and fame...

Torag is similar to Erastil, with more focus on killing the enemies of your people.

Iomedae seem to expect her followers to be more "knightly" than other paladins, accepting duels and such. She also expects them to be temperate, which is kinda vague... where is the limit? are you expected to fast? can you wear flashy clothes? drink wine? own a fancy manse...?

Sanserae seems quite easy to follow at first glance... protecting your allies and healing the sick is something a decent person would want to do anyways... but she also demands that you destroy evil AND forgive repentant creatures... that may be hard to balance...

Irori demands that you perfect yourself, which is kind of a given to most PCs (they are becoming stronger all the time...), but you also have to help others perfect themselves, which can be a bother (am I required to take disciples...?), and you have to maintain self-control, which is kind a vague... where is the line? how ascetic are you expected to be?

Apsu seems easy to follow for a regular PC... you are expected to "Seek and destroy evil, travel the world, help others fend for themselves" and avoid to "Fail to pursue a foe who has betrayed your mercy, attack a creature without certainty of wrongdoing..."

Most LG PCs would do all of that anyways... but Apsu probably accepts few non-dragons as Champions...

Kurgess seems okay, but he is a bit too focused on athletic competition...

Horus and Ra seem to focus mostly on leaders.

Anubis seems to focus mostly on fighting undead.

Osiris seems to focus on agriculture and burials.

Thoth focus on knowledge and research.

Wadjet, much like Erastil and Torag, seems focused on the protection of your community, which may be hard for a traveling paladin...

Isis looks great... heal the sick? use magic to help the needy? don't be an a$!~%~#? Yeah, can do that...

Ma'at don't look too hard either... be honest and destroy monsters... the first part wouldn't be too hard, and PCs do the second for a living anyways...

Trudd seems easy to follow for your average PC... Using your power to help others weaker than yourself? That's basically the job description of a LG adventurer! However, Trudd is a dwarven god, and I don't know if he accepts non-dwarves...

Shizuru's dogma is kind of a mixed bag: protect nature, protect lovers, train everyday, be honourable... sort of like following the dogma of four different deities simultaneously...

Tsukiyou focuses mostly on helping the suffering ones... not a hard thing to do, but he probably expects his followers to spend a lot of time doing it...

I feel like Apsu, Isis, Ma'at and Trudd are probably the easiest to follow, but Apsu and Trudd are racial a gods (are they restricted...?).