Crozekiel's page

So wait, you are saying that "treated as medium armor" with absolutely zero examples of when it isn't treated as medium armor, is completely different from "treated as medium armor in all ways"? Making a statement and not having any exceptions implies the "in all ways".

Also, the order the armor actually gets made doesn't actually effect the order you apply stats, unless the magic applied to it would remove the effects of the material. There is no evidence of this. They have not given us the effects of the magic enhancement of Celestial Plate or Celestial Armor and stated "it changes armor into x no matter what it originally was". They have given us 2 final products and what their stats are. I agree that isn't enough information to extrapolate the enhancement out and apply it to different armors like half plate or a breast plate, however, they also didn't tell us that the enhancement ignores what it was made out of and always turns into the same thing. Also, trying to claim that it doesn't work "because you don't build it in that order" would also not allow you to make mithral full plate at all, since you don't start with steel full plate and transmute it to mithral... Your own post stating the order you "make the armor in" starts with steel full plate then you add mithral. That isn't how it is actually crafted, just how you determine the stats, because you apply the modifiers to the stats. With Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate, you are given a set of stats that you can then apply modifiers too. You even admit you could make adamantine Celestial Plate, so the order of operations obviously doesn't matter...

The problem here seems to be whether you can gain the benefits of Mithral on top of the benefits of Celestial, not whether you can make it. Most people saying no, seem to be saying more because its a bit of a broken combination and they don't believe that to be intended rather than the rules stating that it isn't allowed, usually just reverting to the stacking rules (which don't really address this issue). If its a stacking issue, where is the line drawn? Can you not use any effect that alters the things mithral already alters? There really isn't a rule that states an magical effect can't effect an item because it already has a physical effect that is similar. If you halve something's weight and make it easier to use, and then had a way to halve it again, would it not become even easier to use?

As for trying to sweep the problem under the rug by saying "this isn't a pathfinder item", what about Celestial Armor which was printed in pathfinder books? Are you saying we can Mithral Celestial Armor?

Yes, there are assumptions being made on both sides, which is something all the nay-sayers seem to be forgetting. You can't say it breaks any rules without making assumptions as to what it is because we don't have enough information. You can't assume exactly what the magical effect does based on 2 examples of finished products. (i exclude the shield because it has extra effects and has more spell requirements to craft).

P.S. I am very curious to hear whether you all think Celestial ARMOR can be mithral or not... And you can't default back to "well it doesn't matter because its a 3.5 item" since its paizo published in a pathfinder book...

You guys keep bringing up the "order of operations" for making magic armor, but that only matters if you are operating under the assumption that celestial armor physically changes the base material into something new via some sort of transmutation magic. The fact that you make it out of mithral first, then apply magic to it, does not effect how you determine the stats. The armor with the stats is Celestial Plate, then you apply the mithral modifiers to it. That is how adding mithral to something works. You start with the stats for the item you have, then apply mithral to it. Making mundane mithral full plate, you don't craft steel plate then mithralize it, but when determining the stats, you start with full plate, then add mithral modifiers... One item has stats, the other has modifiers to those stats. You can rule it how you like in your home games, but you can't claim the rules are crystal clear against this working.

First, that isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is getting heavy armor down to light armor.

Second, the reason people aren't flagging the OP is that 95% of the people in the thread know the answer: its a custom magic item, ask your GM.

First, how is that the biggest problem? 10ft faster move speed is more important than getting 9 AC from armor with no penalties for not being proficient with it? Especially considering the proficiency requires 2 feats, since no matter how you slice it, you need medium armor proficiency to use it without penalty. So, are you saying that you can't Mithral Celestial Plate, but you CAN Celestial Armor because one starts as heavy armor and dropping down to light is too much of a drop? So 10ft of faster movement is a much bigger concern than bypassing 2 feats? Honestly, everyone seems to have a hang up about the terms "heavy armor" turning into "light armor" and aren't actually looking at what you get from it...

Second, "ask your GM" isn't an answer if someone is wondering what to do in a game they are running. That is a very poor bandaid to cover the rules not being very clear. Sure, it works fine if the person asking is playing in a campaign, but the answer doesn't work at all if they are running the game. I don't know why everyone seems to assume everyone asking a question or looking for an answer in the rules forum must be a player (and honestly, many seem to think they are idiots that can't read, simply because they don't already agree with them).

Also, a very similar problem comes from applying Mithral to Celestial Armor, which is in published pathfinder materials, and the 2 are very closely related, and giving an answer to one would very likely answer the other.

The quote is from Special Materials section. First paragraph.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials

Celestial (imbued gold/silver) is a different material than mithral. Full stop. Done.

Mitrhral is only lighter and more nimble in comparison to steel, not different materials, different materials have different attributes and you can only get one property.

Funny, I don't see "Celestial (imbued gold/silver)" on the special materials page...

Also, I have to agree that there are definitely RAW to support this working... Think of it like this:
You have 2 blocks of metal, 1 ft along each side. One weighs 40 lbs, the other weighs 20 lbs. You have a spell that makes a block of metal super shiny, and cuts its weight in half. If you cast the spell on both blocks of metal, one is now 20 lbs and the other is 10 lbs. That logic could be applied to the armor in question, and would be allowed under the rules.

There are obviously differing opinions on how the rules were intended. I don't see how saying that the rules allows this is a logical fallacy, as someone mentioned above, at all. Do you need GM approval? Yes, just like with any other custom magic item. That doesn't mean you can just tell someone that is asking if this is supported in the rules that they are RAW "up to GM". What if the person asking IS the GM? Honestly, the best reason I have seen for why it shouldn't work is simply that it is too powerful / cheap. Just because its a broken rule, doesn't mean it isn't there, and unless they come out and specifically say SOMETHING, you can't say that it breaks the RAW. It may not be RAI, but until they tell us, we can't know that.

Both sides of the argument are making some sort of assumption to come to their conclusion. At the moment, the only thing close to an authority on the subject has stated that Celestial gets its properties from magic and NOT the material. That means the material could be changed to get more benefit. This is the assumption marshmallow (i think, i don't want to put words in their mouth) is using to say that RAW supports light celestial full plate.