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Crazy Tlabbar wrote:

Ooooo! What Skill Focus are you taking?

(hint:Bluff)
Tho if you feel strongly about it, or have a plan, there's also Acrobatics, Perception or Stealth.

I was thinking of Bluff actually, because it's the easiest way to guarantee a sneak attack. Although Acrobatics do have a lot of checks that might help me in combat.

But I am curious how skill focus works. It says that if i have more than 10 in a skill, it raises to +6. But does it mean that I have to put 7 points in a skill and it will be 13, because the +3 will trigger the raise, or will I need to push it to 10 to get the buff?

Skill bonus = [# ranks] + [charisma] + [class skill bonus] + [competence bonus] + [luck bonus] + ... etc.

Sooooooo

When you have 1 rank, 4 ranks, 9 ranks... then Skill Focus gives you a bonus of +3. So for level 2 (assuming you keep Bluff ranks maxed)...
Bluff = 2ranks + 2charisma + 3classSkill + 3skillFocus = +10
As soon as you put in that 10th rank, then the bonus from skill focus goes up to +6.
So at level 10 with max ranks...
Bluff = 10ranks + 2charisma + 3classSkill + 6skillFocus = +21

Ooooo! What Skill Focus are you taking?
(hint:Bluff)
Tho if you feel strongly about it, or have a plan, there's also Acrobatics, Perception or Stealth.

Ehhh... The character is established Half-Elf and she is already been RPed. I will not change her race or anything during already ongoing RP. I have not used Drow Magic yet, so perhaps my GM will allow me to tinker with it.

I intend to pick Offensive Defense at level 2 and Combat Expertise at level 3. Then Bomber at 4, Improved Feint at 5 and Fast Stealth at 6. Dodge at 7.

Although until I level up and am forced to make the decision, nothing is certain. I might just as well pick something utterly different on level 2, as I have a habit of doing :D

Yeah. I always do a 20 level build, but as the game goes on I realize that this or that choice doesn't work as well for this campaign. Take my Dwarven Ranger for example... we've spent so much time fighting undead, and so much time in the woods, than I completely threw out my initial plans for Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain, and adjusted my choices to meet the pressures of the campaign.

But it's still very useful to have a plan. It gives you direction, and makes you think about how feats and abilities and skills interact and play off each other. Then as the game progresses, you tweak the plan. It makes you wiser each time you lay out the 20 levels of choices, and learn from how the choices work when theyre implemented.

From level 10 onward you get Advanced Talents... a total of 6.
Here are my favorites.

Skill Mastery: 5 or more skills can take 10 under any strenuous circumstance. Suggestions = Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Stealth, Use Magic Device.
Opportunist: Best when paired with Combat Reflexes feat.
Fast Tumble
Familiar: If you took the minor & major magic talents, this is pretty nice. Especially since a familiar has all the same skill ranks (just ranks) of their master. This means your familiar is an incredibly capable trickster in its own right. If you pick a Rat, you also get +2 on Fortitude saves as well. If you pick a scorpion familiar, you get +2 initiative, and its poison DC increases as you level up.
Crippling Strike: If you already have them bleeding and you already boosted your AC with Offensive Defense, here is a third sneak attack type - strength damage

Oh! I forgot...

A different way to go is the Minor/Major magic route, which is great too.
Minor Magic: Favorite choices for spells are Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, or Spark
Major Magic: Great spell choices include Chill Touch, Color Spray, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Icicle Dagger, Jump, Obscuring Mist, Shadow Weapon, Shield, Stone Fist, True Strike, Unseen Servant, Vanish

The damaging spells (Chill Touch, Icicle Dagger, Shadow Weapon, Stone Fist) are all spells that work for more that one attack and also can be used to deliver sneak attack. Spells like Burning Hands and Magic Missile don't have attack rolls, and thus can't deliver sneak attacks. The motto here is: Don't make selections that neglect your class abilities, because then you're spreading yourself too thin.

I've always loved Bleeding Strike and Offensive Defense.

Bleeding Strike is fun because you can hit an opponent once and then just hide (bluff to distract, stealth behind cover) and wait for them to bleed out.
If you're in a big battle, use Bleeding Strike once on each enemy.
To stop the bleeding, the target is forced to use an action (their own or someone else's) to heal. So the target is left with the choice: more damage, or lose a turn? Either way it's good for you, bad for them. Many creatures don't even have that option (like animals, or most magical beasts) and are doomed to bleed out... doomed creature is doomed.

Offensive Defense is great because as long as you're delivering sneak attacks, you're harder (for your victim) to hit. It's basically a "duel dominance" talent, especially mixed with (you guessed it) Improved Feint! Each round just Feint and Sneak Attack, and your AC is higher.

Both of these don't replace your sneak attack damage; they just add more effects to it. So if you manage to get two sneak attacks off on an opponent in one round, one will be Offensive Defense, and the other will have Bleeding Strike.

So those are combat.

If I were to pick two more talents, I would probably go with Trap Spotter (trap auto-detection) and Fast Stealth (no penalty when using stealth at full speed). I really like Ledge Walker, but the more I think about it, it wouldn't get used often. Fast Stealth would be used all the time, both in and out of combat. As for traps, most traps happen because you forget to search for them. With Trap Spotter, you never have to remember; the GM has to :D

Then you get into the Advanced Talents... which is another post

Careful with Dirty Trick.
It uses Combat Maneuver Bonus, not a skill.
Rogues usually have bad CMB for their level.
You may find yourself using a maneuver that almost never works and that can get frustrating.

For bombs, note that the Bomber talent is from the Pathfinder Player Companion: Ranged Tactics Toolbox Paperback. Not sure if that's allowed by your GM.

You also don't need any special feats to use a Smoke Pellet (LINK). They're 25gp apiece. If you get a +10 bonus on Craft Alchemy (or +8 bonus and masterwork alchemist tools) you can make your own for half price. Other items you can use/make include thunderstones and flash powder, to create the sort of results you're looking for.

Ironically, though, if you want to "smoke bomb escape"... well Bluff lets you get similar results that for free, at will, as per the Stealth skill
"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you."

I like to think of that as doing something subtle, like looking over someone's shoulder in a way that they think something's behind them. They glance, see nothing is there, and then when they look back at you, you've suddenly vanished!
Little mind games like that.

Yeah Weapon Focus isn't worth the +1 to hit.
Weapon Focus as a gateway drug to better feats is worthwhile.

Here's a hint: Go HERE and use CTRL+F to search the page for "weapon foc" to see all the feats that Weapon Focus is the prerequisite for.

Once you do that, you've don't your first "search for optimal feat path options"
You'll find that most of those Weapon-Focus feats are pretty sub-par for a Rogue (way better for Fighters), which means that as you level up, those feats will become more and more like dead weight.

This is why some of us are pushing so hard for Improved Feint.
- it doesn't use your base attack bonus ("BAB"), and thus doesn't suffer a -1 to -5 penalty compared to warrior types (who have higher BAB).
- it uses your Bluff skill, which is an incredibly useful skill for Rogues; it makes something very useful even more useful. Thus if you focus on your Bluff skill, your Feint combat maneuver benefits too (great investment). Taking Skill Focus - Bluff gives you +3 to bluff (and thus to feint)... +6 when you have 10 or more ranks. At level 20, you'll have (20ranks +3class +6feat) +29+CHA to bluff (and feint). Add some lesser items... a circlet or persuasion and a headband of +2 CHA and total bonus is +35.
Read this and look at the DC, then look at monster in the bestiary... your feint will work far more often than not. At level 20, you'll have a 75% chance to feint a Balor, and a 65% or higher to feint a Pit Fiend or ancient Red Dragon. Or take Skill Mastery [bluff] and feint 100% of the time because you can always take 10.
- it allows you to use your sneak attack (your most notable class ability in combat) more often and in more situations.
- it denies enemies their dexterity which makes you hit more often. If the target's DEX bonus is +3, then a successful feint is worth three times Weapon Focus for that attack.

See how all that makes it almost EXPONENTIAL in value? Whereas Weapon Focus is more linear... and its value (relative to everything else) diminishes the more you level up. When bonuses from spells and effects regularly become +4 or more (around level 11+) then Weapon Focus will be less relevant.

Some tips about teamwork and Rogues.

• As I mentioned multiple times, flankity flank flank. Ideally, the more tanky party member positions themselves in harms way ("behind enemy lines").
• Stunned, dex-denied, and blinded foes are your favorite prey. Talk to your casters about making regular use of spells like Grease, Widened Grease, Color Spray, Heightened Color Spray, Widened Color Spray, Blindness/Deafness, Bouncing Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Widened Glitterdust, Heightened Glitterdust... you get the idea. They may not "GET DA KILLZ" but when the enemy is blind and/or stumbling around, they can be easily wiped out in 1-2 rounds and your entire party is unharmed. Even the fighter types will enjoy all the low-risk targets to power attack and deliver combat maneuvers on. That's the ultimate victory you should be looking for as a group.
• Monks are good combat buddies for the Rogue. They're even more nimble than you (so they can flank), and they can stun enemies, making them irresistible for "field surgery." I guess two wrongs can make a right...?
• Make sure that you're not the only stealther in the group. A party Monk, Ranger, Bard or stealth-capable caster should be able to be your scouting partner. In a perfect world, your Barbarian took the Highlander trait and has stealth ranks, and the party Fighter has a ring of invisibility, so the whole party can sneak, with you (the stealth specialist) a bit further ahead. Distance gives perception penalties, so if the group keeps pace (stealthily) at 100' back, the DC to notice them is 10 higher... functionally equivalent to +10 stealth.
• Wands and low level scrolls are great for a Rogue to have around. If your party has a crafter of these, get a good trade relationship and wish list going. It's in the crafter's best interests to help you be stronger, because ROI (return on investment) is measured in party effectiveness, not personal glory. For example if you had a steady supply of scrolls of Grease, then you can help the wizard out by adding a bit of extra battlefield control. Or you could do a "1-2 combo" where you use a scroll of Flaming Sphere and in the same round the Wizard casts Pyrotechnics using that sphere as fuel.

A little rant about Two-Weapon Fighting: ITS A TRAP

The notion of doing lots of attacks sounds all wonderful, but for the feat cost, and the demanding requirements (very high Dex) at high level, you have to think about what it takes to use TWF.

Full Round action.

This means you're standing there, fighting like a warrior type. Do you really want to be doing that? As a Rogue? How often will you be doing that while you are able to deliver multiple sneak attacks (which is the whole draw for the feat chain)?

The most common use for the full attack is when you flank with a buddy... except the majority of your flank buddies are warriors who are less mobile than you. This means that it's usually up to you, the more fragile one, to acrobatic your way to flanking position... where you are exposed, and possibly surrounded by the enemy, while you wait for next round to stand there again to do your full attack. And for this you burned up feats so you can hit 1-3 times more (assuming you even need those attacks to get the kill)? Remember that the round you tumbled in for a flank, you probably delivered a sneak attack already, and also your flank buddy got a hit (or did a full attack). How crucial are those 1-3 extra attacks at this point? Enough to burn 1-3 feats (30% feat expense) for?

Two-weapon fighting is a trap for Rogues.
Use your trap-finding skill and see it for what it is.

I need to plan ahead a little... As there are lots of feats I need to take...

1. Weapon Focus Shortsword
2. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Iron Will (I have 10 Wis)
5. Improved Feint
6. Great Fortitude

That about right order?

As for talents, I will try the Bomber path. I like it and with 14 Int I get three bombs oer day. Should be enough. Grab a Smoke Bomb and Blinding Bomb fir sure. Fast Stealth sounds good, fir both combat and story use.

• Improved Feint (link) requires Combat Expertise
• Mobility is pretty much redundant when you have maximum Acrobatics (just tumble around your foes)
• Don't blow all your feats covering your weaknesses or you'll end up truly mediocre. Instead, focus on amplifying your strengths, and making them multi-purpose (so you don't become a 1-trick pony)

Let me provide an alternative list:
1. Combat Expertise
2. Improved Feint
3. Skill Focus - Bluff (make your feint all the more effective)
4. Combat Reflexes
5. Quickdraw
6. Greater Feint

This whole set will make you more flexible in combat, able to deliver sneak attacks under more circumstances: Feint+Attack combo, Deliver more attacks of opportunity, quickdraw+fullAttack.
Skill Focus will amplify the Bluff skill in all its wonderful uses (really, really read that skill closely).
Combat Expertise is not just a prerequisite. It will also let you do some "AC tanking," keeping an enemy at bay, to buy a round or two. Or if you have a "guaranteed hit" use this to make you better protected until next round. For example, against a low-AC target, you can use this on your opening surprise attack and you're better able to handle the counter-attack.
Quickdraw is not only fun for style, but also great for switching between melee and thrown (as per my previous post), and also it lets you full-attack with thrown weapons at level 9+. For example against a stunned target, you can throw a bunch of darts and deliver multiple Sneak Attacks without even being in melee.

Some more "mean tricks" you might want to think about is...
- Improved Unarmed Strike, which lets you deliver sneak attack even when unarmed, and also qualifies you for...
- Stunning Fist. Stunned foes are easy prey for sneak attack, and they drop held items to boot. But Stunned Foes are also easy prey for...
- Dastardly Finish, which lets you do a coupe de grace against stunned or cowering targets. Yes, the holy grail of sneak attacks, where they Fort save-or-die against your sneak attack damage. How fun!

By the way, click my name and you'll see my profile which includes a build I used a few years back. This build was very very fun to play because it was dynamic and took advantage of multiple opportunities.

For UMD, always have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, so you can heal the party between fights. Other level 1 spells which make your life easier include: Disguise Self, Grease, Silent Image, Shield, Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat. There are more, but this is a good place to start. Spells that do energy damage are also fun.

A wand of Acid Splash lets you do acid damage as a ranged touch attack within 25', and it ignores SR. Speaking of ranged combat...

For ranged combat, remember that you can use Sneak Attack (against any targets denied DEX vs. you) within 30' only. That said, I suggest always having some thrown weapons like Darts. If you rely on a bow, you will find many situations where you have to do the following:

• Put away your melee weapon
• Draw your bow
• Load and fire

Keep your Acrobatics high, so you can get around enemies and achieve Flank more often. Talk to your fellow players about how it's good for everyone if you work together to achieve flank (both in terms of the +2 bonus, and in terms of more dead opponents in less time, which reduces overall party risk).

If your campaign is a real one, where information is useful, keep a sap on hand so you can take prisoners for interrogation (mingled with your sneak attack, of course). Another word for the sap is "diplomacy stage 2"

Bluff is the best skill ever. Bluff to feint in combat, bluff to negotiate prices, bluff to distract people so you can achieve stealth, bluff to lie your way past security, bluff to communicate to party members secretly in the middle of a conversation... bluff is awesome. Oh and Feint lets you sneak attack anyone who "can't be caught flatfooted" because a Feint simply denies the target their Dex bonus. You might seriously want to consider Improved Feint.

I have a fondness for Bluff, simply because it's very multipurpose:

Firstly, I'd like to point out that this is OOC for me.

Just a few questions for the rogue players out there.

The feats would look like

REQUIRED: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Skill Focus - Bluff, Improved Initiative

OPTIONAL: Any feat with the word "feint" in it

Improved init is a must, simply because winning initiative means flat footed enemies on round 1.

For Talents, pick at least one to make your SA do something in addition to damage, like boost your AC or inflict bleeding. If you pick multiple, think about full attack SA and how you can mix the SA-tweakers. Other tasty talents are Fast Sneak and Favored Terrain is awesome for certain terrain-centered campaigns (like the underdark campaign I'm playing), which opens up Hide in Plain Sight at level 10+.

=======

Personally, I picked Improved Unarmed Strike simply because...
- I like the flavor of being able to kill people with SA when I appear unarmed and defenseless.
- When BAB reached +8 I can take Stunning Fist, and my GM interprets the feat so that the stun lasts exactly 1 round from the point it's delivered... so AoO stun, SA-full-attack.
- If I want I can take combat styles. I was thinking Snake Style chain since it lets you make a Sense Motive check (I have max ranks) to replace AC sometimes. Plus you get extra attacks out of nowhere which is stellar when flanking.

YMMV on that idea. It's not exactly optimal when I have a shortsword +2 of subtlety and another PC is my personal slave and a Hobgob Monk who knows to ALWAYS flank with me (else get the requisite beating later).

See this last post says it all: "I would like to improve the different TYPES of circumstances i can get a sneak attack off, even if its just one."

Your answer here is to take the Improved Feint path. It lets you deliver SA without flanking, and even if the enemy is looking you in the face and has Uncanny Dodge.

The other benefit of Improved Feint is that it requires a wonderful skill - Bluff. Bluff has combat and non-combat benefits, such as bluff-to-distract-to-hide, or canter-to-plan-ambush-while-chatting, plus the obvious feinting, and lying your face off. That said, Skill Focus - Bluff is a feat I selected, and have zero regrets for doing so. That +3 becomes +6 by level 10, and if you have stuff like a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 more) and Ring of Mind Shielding (Detect Lies? Sorry!), your chances of messing with everyone and their dog starts to outpace even the CR-relevant outsiders' abilities.

If all you care about is doing damage, then TWF seems the best route...
In my own experience, TWF is a waste.

How often are you able to do a full attack in a state where you can SA without getting butchered yourself? By mid level that becomes exceedingly difficult as you face more unflankables, uncrittables, superior numbers, and bigger & smarter & more mobile enemies. By mid level you've already wasted 2 or more feats on a TWF chain you never use.
It's a trap, and any Rogue should be able to detect traps.

A build should instead be focused on doing more than just damage with SA, so the attack action is more than just "I do damage". For example, I enjoy Bleeding Strike because it means that when I SA, I pressure a foe to get healing or to rush the fight to avoid bleeding to death. Deliver this and then escape, run behind full cover, hide and repeat, or look for flanking buddies. The point of bleeding strike is to deliver SA to as many enemies as possible, maxing your DoT effect for both damage and wasted enemy actions if they heal.

I also like Offensive Defense, because when you add Combat Expertise and have 3 ranks in Acrobatics (for higher AC when fighting defensively), you can be an AC tank in a pinch on the round you SA.

But enough about SA.
Another big thing about a Rogue is that they have zero excuse to not have UMD maxed; they have the ranks for it and it's a class skill. That said, when SA isn't an option, you should always have some wands and low level scrolls handy. Sure, you're no mage, but when you find yourself up against a Black Pudding, would you rather flank it for no purpose, or cook it with a wand of scorching ray, or use that scroll of Grease to help the fighter escape the grapple?

In my case, with our party's insane perception checks and knack for stealth, we tend to be able to pick our fights. As a master of disguise and deception, I leverage this advantage causing most socially capable foes to be caught off guard. That surprise opener gives a substantial edge, and it's because of skills. Even True Seeing doesn't help against that... only high perception or sense motive can beat it, which means most magic-dependent foes or brutes are ideal victims.

As a skill monkey a Rogue needs to think about how to exploit with what he has. Most powerful people rely on magic, and using skills can slip through the cracks of many counter-magical measures. Think like this and you'll have so much fun you'll forget that you're playing a weak class. Let's face it... a rogue is incredibly weak, so you have to make up for it with your playing style.

The wands I started with (as a level 4 with the wealth of nobility) were Obscuring Mist, Silent Image and Cure Light Wounds.
Since then I've acquired (from dead enemy casters) wands of Magic Circle vs. Evil, Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

The one I rarely use is Obscuring Mist, as we've rarely had to escape, and I have Deeper Darkness as an SLA at will.

CLW is obviously a staple. I'm near the end of the charges, and it's served me well for 5 levels now.

Silent Image has proven invaluable many times to create illusory objects or terrain for the group to hide within. I've also used it as a "projector" to go over complicated plans or accurately show the party the people or things I saw when scouting.

The MC vs Evil has seen alot of recent use, since we're facing a substantial amount of evil spellcasters and priestesses.

Fireball and Lightning Bolt are very useful when faced with combat situations where sneak attack isn't an option, and there are multiple foes.

The group cleric JUST took Scribe Scroll as a feat, and I've written up a scroll list request for her; I anticipate some level 1-2 scrolls coming my way after this latest mission is complete.

I'm not sure that this build actually mechanically works.

Stunning Fist from the srd:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn).

Because of that last entry there, just before your next turn, the opponent who was stunned on an aoo will no longer be stunned when you start your turn.

So which is it? One round, or until your next turn? These two terms, "1 round" and "until just before your next turn" are suddenly in conflict when the stun is delivered on an attack of opportunity.

What if the opponent you stun with an AoO acted just before you and you stun them when they provoke? Then the stun hardly is lasting one round.

I propose that the "just before" bit is so that the person delivering the stunning fist can't exploit one successful stun unfairly. For example, if that text wasn't there, many would be arguing that the stun lasts until AFTER their next turn, which is exploitation.

As a rogue, trust me we do not get overpowered.

Yes, yes, at level 7 I can bluff with bonuses ranging from +18 to +26, thus making the world my personal idiot to dupe and manipulate and feint and distract. I may SEEM overpowered in limited situations, but in general the party is actually quite balanced. Don't focus on one or two numbers, look at the whole character, strengths and weaknesses together.

Your player's day can easily be ruined with a single casting of Color Spray, for example.

Long time since updating...

Probably the reason this thread has fallen to neglect is because my team has become rather solid over the last few months; in combat, we've learned to become very complimentary, and started getting creative. For example, since I took Improved Unarmed Strike, my Monk slave and I are beginning to use the flank + nonlethal beatdown technique. This was exceptionally fun when, while protecting a caravan being hunted by mercenaries (which we hired... it's complicated) we subdued a Basilisk and used it as a "gift" for the pursuing scouts.

This leads me into more of the "combat and teamwork" theme: Developing as a team.

Bards are "good at skills". Rogues are not, they just get a bunch of skill points.

Tell that to the campaign I'm dominating with my outlandish Bluff skill.

Why bother with trapfinding? The Ranger can find them and the Alchemist can disarm them. I can help, if I feel like it. Actually, I'm about as good as they are. But why do it yourself when you can just delegate?

I am doing just fine, thanks. Members of the group are sighing and saying "Have Crazz do it." alot

Social Situation? "Have Crazz do it."
Sneaking and Scouting? "Have Crazz or Li'Neer or Kuruk (the ranger and monk) do it."
Perception? "Have Crazz or Li'Neer do it."
Sabotage or Counter-traps? "Have Crazz or Fuze (the Alchemist) do it."

Combat? Believe it or not, I'm doing just fine. I'm not racking up kills like the Alchemist is, and I'm a bit behind the Ranger, but I'm on par with the Monk and Cleric and Sorcerer. One thing is for sure; I'm the 2nd best defensive tank, next to the Monk. Hurray for Acrobatics and fighting defensively / full defense.

the issue I have is, other than SA (which I use for bleeding strike; love it), I'm so very nothing special.

As a bluff specialist, I can escape combat if need be as well.

Click my name.
I am a rogue who can do other things.

My focus is on the Bluff skill:
- bluff to distract, allowing you to hide in combat (and SA).
- bluff to feint, allowing a SA.
- bluff for social dominance as a con artist.
- bluff to deliver hidden messages, such as the order to "attack" without victims knowing until it's too late.

What book is skilled liar in?

LINK

Not in my game, but only because of how my DM does his thing.

Ask yourself, and/or your DM how viable it is. That's where you'll find the best answer. All we intertube-users can do is guess with partial information and relate to experiences which may be completely misleading to you.

TBH, it sounds like you're really excited about that talent, so I have a feeling you should just take it. When you ask if you should, and people say "no need, here's why" and you're reluctant to take their consultation, that says to me that you really want it, and (despite what you say) are looking for social backing to reinforce your choice. Kind of like when you can't decide, so you roll a die, and then you reject the roll because deep down, you wanted option B all along.

Not for me. My DM plays with reputation and rumors without having a mechanics to do it. This is likely because of a few things...

(1) We're nobles of high-ranked houses.
(2) We were all born under ominous conditions (our mothers all died during labor; all born at same time).
(3) We all have unusual colored eyes and a faint empathic bond (designed to make us work together better, instead of killing each other as Drow often do).
(4) Demonic servants of Lolth, even under direct command of a matron, refuse to raise a hand against us.
(5) We just finished infiltrating the grand central temple and assassinating a priestess of great renown.
(6) During said infiltration, a spiritual calamity struck the priesthood, culminating in a handmaiden of Lolth appearing in a chapel and slaughtering a hundred worshiper, while prophecizing the doom of the decadent Drow leadership at our hands.

So as you can see, it's pretty hard to not get a reputation in our home town.

As for manipulating that rep, all you need to do is Bluff and lie your face off about what the "truth behind the rumors" is. You can dismiss things, or add "missing information" (*cough*lie*cough*), either as yourself or by disguising yourself and pre-loading misinformation to the people you intend to talk to.

But it all depends on your DM and how "big" your party is. My DM loves influencing the social atmosphere through the consequences of PC actions. I mean if you save a town, or save a dozen orphans from a burning building, or murder a magistrate, you're big news.

The rumormonger ability is fun, and I've considered it as an advanced trait. But with how the game is currently going I see no need for it. By the time I can qualify for that trait (level 10), my Bluff check to lie will be +27 without gear... I can take 10 and get a 37 Bluff (10ranks +3class +5skilledLiar +3cha +6skillFocus), which is tough to beat. With my circlet of persuasion, that's a 40 Bluff without breaking a sweat. Rumors mean nothing when I can convince 90% of people of anything I want.

If you want a Rogue who is all about disguises and lying, consider the Spy archetype.

I am a hybrid of Spy and generic Rogue (click my name and see my current stats). Being a Drow, the Poison Use ability was redundant, so I was able to retain Trap Sense.

I'll have to say, choosing Skill Focus - Bluff was better than I expected. It synergized with the Skilled Liar ability, making my Bluff unbeatable. Bluff has become the center of my character, and rightfully so:

First, how many level 3 rogues actually have the feats to take skill focus(perception)? For a human rogue, that is a third of your feat selection. For any other rogue, that is half of your feat selection.

I agree with that, but I focused in Bluffing and it is worth it, believe me.

Goes up to +6 at level 10.

My only problem: A commoner can do the same 8'-(

On that note, why isn't the Rogue investing in a Wand/scroll/potion of Invis instead (IE using their mundaine NOT MAGIC skills to do something cool)?

Because I'm having fun with my Wands of Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Cure Light Wounds, and the Wands of Fireball and Lightning bolt we pilfered from dead mages (the sorcerer and alchemist get first pick, I get the extras... there are 4 wands of fireball in the party from loot).

But once again, A commoner (with trait for UMD as class skill) can do the same 8'-(

I've been watching my slave, a Hobgoblin who fights unarmed. He can stun people with a strike. That would be a fun trick to have. Now I notice that the poor loser is stunned only briefly, not long enough to follow up with a barrage while taking advantage of his condition.

(Stunning Fist only lasts 1 full round; just shy of your next turn)

However, if the opponent does something stupid and walks into a hit, then the chance comes up to deliver a barrage on the still-stunned victim.

(Use Stunning Fist on an AoO and it lasts past your next turn)

So if I train my reflexes to really take advantage of openings (Combat Reflexes) and learn this unarmed combat style and stunning maneuver, I can turn small openings into ones the size of a barn and tear my enemies apart (Stunning Fist on an AoO means full round SA next turn).

Well there's this group of defensive elite which train their reflexes to not only exploit nearby openings, but quickly shift about the battlefield to take advantage of openings from enemies two or more paces away (Combat Patrol). If I were to master this as well, I could effectively dominate an entire region, stunning anyone who gives an opening within a number of paces, and then annihilate them as they're still reeling.

============

FEATS (6): Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Patrol

RESULT: 10-15' radius of threatening squares, used to deliver Stunning Fist via AoO. Follow up with full round SA.

FINISHING TOUCHES: Take the Dastardly Finish feat to CDG stunned enemies (when not threatened). Or take Opportunist talent to deliver the stun, and you don't even need for your enemy to mess up.

============

Thoughts?

I'm evil. My group is evil. We get along just fine.

However, we are not normal Drow. We were all born with a special link, along with our odd-colored eyes. We can sense each other's presence, and feel each other's pain and pleasure to a small degree. We are each from separate houses, but all our mothers died giving birth to us, and we were all born on the same day, which I believe was a celestial event of some sort (eclipse or something). This link has brought our houses together to form a council, and also swept us together. This sort of "empathy" draws us to each other. Thus, we are evil to the core, but our connection prevents betrayal.

There were problems at first, especially with me. I like lying, which makes me untrustworthy, and I over-reach my grasp, talking back to priestesses and the like... which I do because I know my Matron adores me, and because I can lie and charm my way out of anything. I've killed prisoners out of turn as well (to save time), and taken slaves that my other party members want for themselves.

But things have become very smooth as of late. For all my lying, my comrades know I do it for their sake. For my hoarding the best slaves, I do so because the others have proven less capable masters (the Ranger has shown a love for torture, the Alchemist likes buffing them and sending them off to die, and the Priestess and Sorcerer seem uninterested for now). For all my arrogance and selfishness, I've fought for my comrades and helped them aplenty, and continue to do so. We've all proven our worth to each other.

As such, this "PVP" is simply non-existent.

There is some squick factor, for example, the priestess spent ten minutes detailing her vivisection of her brother (who failed us) as part of her sacrificing him to Lolth. We've had long discussions on how to "process" certain prisoners before interrogation: I wanted her eyes and feet removed, so she couldn't use sight to target, and thus use supernatural escape; feet so she couldn't get far. The others were more dramatic and less practical. I just left it up to them, and the Ranger got to write extensive emails to the DM on the piece-by-piece dismemberment and interrogation.

This addresses the squick factor to some degree, is that the group saves some of the nastier stuff for emails between games - read if interested, discard if not.

SUMMARY: Avoid PVP by giving the party reasons to work together. Evil can still have friends! Avoid squick factor by reserving it for offline, so it doesn't take up game time with uncomfortable details of evil deeds.

As for banality, I assure you, we are not nice people. We murder for convenience, toy with the lives of others, we torture, we've raped (mostly as part of an impersonation/infiltration into a rather nasty little bawdy house), and we relish in the suffering, death and deception of others. But all we do, we do with purpose. Every act we perform is for the sake of our mission at hand, our rise in power, and for the glory of Lolth.

As for the monk's accuracy, don't forget to flank! Increased movement speed makes it easier for you to get around to the other side of the enemy than it is for the rogue or fighter, and the flanking bonus cancels out the flurry penalty.

...and this is why the Hobgoblin Monk is my slave. I get the most benefit from having a flank-servant.

I own a slave. His name is Kuruk, and he is a Hobgoblin.
(He is another PC, run by the guy who sits next to me at the gaming table)
After we crushed his little war band and sorted out who was worth keeping, I decided Kuruk would be mine and mine alone. My fellow Drow Nobles are jealous, and continue to undermine my monopoly over Kuruk, but Kuruk knows who his master is, and he knows that I treat him well. I do so as insurance, so that he will remain obedient in my absence, and it has paid off: I have tactfully given him many opportunities to escape or rebel. But he does not. Likely because he knows I can hunt him down, and he's seen how swift I can be at siphoning blood from a person's throat.

Kuruk is also wise, likely resulting from his disciplined training at some Monastary of Fire he murmers about. He is wise because he knows that, if he escapes or rebels, he will be a "free" hobgoblin in Drow territory... which is another word for "pest". Drow will either kill him for sport, capture and torture him to death for sport, or enslave him... and most Drow are not as generous and manipulative to their slaves as I am (which may explain their short lifespans - such short-term thinking). Yes, I hope to keep my hand on Kuruk's leash for a long, long time... at least as long as he remains a useful tool of mine, anyway.

As for slavery in general, understand that there are 4 kinds of creature in the universe:

We've pilfered some wands of fireball and lightning bolt from wizards we've killed. I UMD some good uses of them now & again.

If the brute can't deliver damage as he is, and isn't even getting attacked, he should drop the shield and 2-hand his warhammer.

If the Oracle is healing, someone already messed up. Round 1 should be battlefield control or buff.

In fact, the alchemist should open up with BF control or buff, too, to delay his damage output while securing victory for the group. Then work with the brute to achieve flank.

The alchy is trying to "win" round 1, and this is his hubris. The group needs to be more patient. Use cover, use higher ground, that kind of thing.

Hello.
Been awhile since my last update. We're infiltrating arach-tinilith right now via a hidden entrance into the 50 floors of spectre-haunted catacombs. A few more things were learned.

The last fights were...
- a massive chasm with ettercaps (around 8) and an Ogre Spider.
- a large sized chaos beast, in a winding tunnel with a chasm.
- a bunch of spectres (we tricked them and ran).
- a huge sized spider-shaped construct with petrification breath.

Speaking as someone who has that trait, it can depend on the nature of the feint.

For example, when facing a skilled ghost-faced-killer (shadowdancer), I said "enough of this", looked over her shoulder at an imaginary comrade behind her and said "kill her". Thinking she was about to be flanked, she looked back to see nobody there, and then I was gone.

That is a feint which may or may not be a lie. I'm implying an enemy which isn't there, but not outright lying.

If instead I had said "You fight well. But you trust your minions too much - dispose of her!" that is more likely to be a lie.

It's a touchy thing, so I suggest (as DM) to come up with some hard and fast rules. Be kind to your Rogue, though. We have to work extra hard to deliver SA to one opponent, which is half the damage one fireball can deliver to many. [note: a fireball does 1d6/CL, or 1d6/2CL on a successful save; a SA does 1d6/2CL - so SA does same damage to 1 enemy, as a fireball does to many who make their saves]

To specify what I said earlier...

Sneak Attack

SA takes time and effort to set up, just so we can do less damage than an equal level warrior or blaster. Appalling!
Solution: Either make SA more worth taking the time to set up (more damage, more status effects), or to make it easier to set up (class abilities to make it easier to use stealth in combat). Or both.

SA should be +3d6 per 4 Rogue levels (+2d6@1,5,9,13,17 and +1d6@3,7,11,15,19).

Not Sneak Attack

The definitive Rogue abilities for combat include SA and ... well that's it. UMD is an everyone-has-it, and nickel & dime combat is something a commoner can do. This means the Rogue who can't SA for a combat is akin to an Expert NPC. Oh dear.
Solution: What else do we Rogues do in movies and stories? Fight dirty, screw with our enemies. This translates to maneuvers like Dirty Tricks, Steal, and similar. Give us Rogues a choice of combat style based on our favorite underhanded tactic! Not just feats, but also enough bonuses to make us rival a specialized warrior class (a la Cad Archetype) in that tactic. You know what this means (Full BAB for that maneuver, apply Dex to CMB for that maneuver).

At level 4, get Agile Maneuvers as a bonus feat.

What would make us Rogues more useful in combat is

Sneak Attack
SA takes time and effort to set up, just so we can do less damage than an equal level warrior or blaster. Appalling!
Solution: Either make SA more worth taking the time to set up (more damage, more status effects), or to make it easier to set up (class abilities to make it easier to use stealth in combat). Or both.

Not Sneak Attack
The definitive Rogue abilities for combat include SA and ... well that's it. UMD is an everyone-has-it, and nickel & dime combat is something a commoner can do. This means the Rogue who can't SA for a combat is akin to an Expert NPC. Oh dear.
Solution: What else do we Rogues do in movies and stories? Fight dirty, screw with our enemies. This translates to maneuvers like Dirty Tricks, Steal, and similar. Give us Rogues a choice of combat style based on our favorite underhanded tactic! Not just feats, but also enough bonuses to make us rival a specialized warrior class (a la Cad Archetype) in that tactic. You know what this means (Full BAB for that maneuver, apply Dex to CMB for that maneuver).

What do we Rogues need outside of combat?
Well we need something that our androgynous cousin, the Bard, can't take away from us with another accursed archetype. What that sounds like to me is some carefully engineered Rogue traits that cater to a particular Rogue concept. For example, if we want to be deeply connected to the underworld of organized crime, we need a trait which Rogues alone can have, and with prerequisites that prevent pretenders like Ranger and Bardic archetypes from being able to take.

I'm a Rogue.
My role is to be master of the streets of our town. I'm a con artist and swindler extraordinaire; a role which nobody else in my band is equipped or trained to handle. Would a Bard be able to do this? Yes, but who cares? The question is not "Is there something a Rogue is best at?" The question is what role does a Rogue fill.

Go ahead, click my name, see how I'm built.
All our exploits are in and around "The Menzo" - urban, intrigue, dungeon crawling, chaotic evil society. My companions are:

My latest lesson:

Rogues can tank against assassin types quite well, thanks to 3+ ranks in Acrobatics and Fighting Defensive/Full Defense actions. That, plus uncanny dodge, make a Rogue suddenly able to hold the line against 2 ganking bosses quite well!

Granted, a Barbarian also has U.D. but a Rogue is far more likely to have the acrobatics to crank that +3 or +6 into AC.

Did I just find a new pseudo-role for Rogues: counter-assassins?

Last Sunday was one big battle which took the lion's share of the game. There were four factions:

• The PCs; four Noble Drow (level 5) and a modified Hobgoblin Monk (level 4 slave; given racial tweaks to reach 22 points like the Drow; new player).
• The NPC slaves; three Ogres, 7 Orc Barbarians (level 2), and 4 Hobgoblin Warriors (level 1). These slaves were our spoils from last game, and we spent the first 2 hours of the session breaking them in.
• Enemy Drow; a Shadowdancer (I guess around 7th or 8th level), some other stealthy types, and too many warriors to count.
• Rival Drow; our priestess' sister sent a group of warriors to crush the enemies, and thus steal success from underneath us. Again, too many to count.

• I and my allies were summoned away. Only our alchemist and our newly broken slaves (including the Hobbo-monk) stayed behind at the warehouse. She (the alchemist) led the slaves in efforts to fortify the warehouse, as our base of operations.
• We nobles were brought before the party priestess' sister, and (gasp) our priestess who was miraculously brought back from death. The party watched as the fighter (her brother; whose player /ragequit last session) was sacrificed to Lolth for failing to protect his sister. Then I watched as the Ranger and Sorcerer were flayed within an inch of death for their part in the debacle last game. Having a massive bluff check, I got away with little more than a scratch. Our priestess' sister (another, higher ranking priestess) then mocked us, claiming she was going to do what we couldn't - she leaked the location of our warehouse to the enemy, and is sending troops to pincer them. "A shame for whoever you left behind at the warehouse, they're probably dead by now." We commandeered some steeds and blazed a trail to the battleground. The sorcerer (whose player wasn't there) separated from the group for some reason en route.
• The Monk managed to spot the stealthy enemies who got into the warehouse, and raised the alarm before being poisoned to sleep. The Alchemist managed to actually repel the invaders using Oil of Daylight, who were jumped by the Rival warriors as they were regrouping outside.
• The group arrived in the middle of a big fight, and we each did our own thing (which seems idiotic, but wait!). The ranger was still wounded and had CON damage from his flaying, but used his abilities with the lessons learned from last game to great effect, evading any chance of being attacked. I used SLAs and my Wand of Silent Image from a hidden location to mess with the conflict; I wanted to make sure nobody lived but us, and created all manner of mistrust and infighting. For example, we hit both the rivals and enemies with the same color of Faerie Fire, so in the magical darkness nobody knew who was who. Silent Image was used to create images of badly concealed Drow Sign on the glowing combatants, delivering messages of treachery and confusion. That kind of thing. The Alchemist and Hobbomonk made great use of their fodder, using them for battlefield control with wise placement, and minimizing risk by using them up first. The priestess mixed her powers beautifully by setting up zones of deeper darkness among the fights, and employing her negative channeling. It was cool to imagine a zone of pitch darkness appearing, then filling with the collective screams of her victims.

• You don't have to be together to use teamwork! Especially if your abilities are ranged ones and you're good communicators. This is how we beat the Shadowdancer leader; we separated, I found her, annoyed her, delayed her, hit her with faerie fire, and kept her from escaping until the group coalesced and crushed her.
• Buffs + Fodder = win. This is why Bards rock, and why Summoners rock, and why Druids rock, and why Conjurers rock, and why Clerics with thralls rock. There are too many class options which provide this tactic, so there's no excuse not to have it in your game.
• Being outnumbered can be good if you think, and take your time. Enemy cohesion can be broken up and then enemies can be used against each other. This usually results in fewer enemies, and weaker enemies. Exploit this whenever you can.
• The best way to win is to pick your fights! When I was facing that shadowdancer alone, I knew I couldn't win. So I messed with her, again and again. I made myself a nuisance she couldn't afford to ignore, and then alternated between fighting defensive and full defense until my allies arrived.

So you were pointing that a bard without archetype isn't as deceptive as an archetype made to enhance Bluff? Fascinating.

The fact is: any argument of the form "the bard needs magic to be as effective as the rogue with skills" is nonsense, except for the case of disable device in a Core-only game.

How very true: such an argument is nonsense. I wonder who was making such an argument. If you think it was me, then care to point out from where you extracted such ridiculous interpretation?

Weren't you berating gat less than an hour ago about flamebaiting?

Hypocracy is wonderful when paired with apathy; Just because I'm just as bad, it doesn't follow that I have to care about it. As an aside, the passive-aggressive style originally used in response to my posts implies that I need a brow-beating for arguing that Rogues are mechanically great, which is blatantly and directly untrue; Rogues are obviously, x1000, trumped by multiple classes, especially including archetypes. People inserting imagined thoughts of Rogue grandeur into my head, thus painting me an idiot, and then claiming glorious victory in stomping all over that imagined opinion, is juvenile, and awakens the equally juvenile, sadistic hypocrite in me.

Anticipating a quote regarding the meme "ORLY", I point out that it was a response to the statement that a Bard (not a bard archetype) is a better liar than my character without using magic. Nothing more, nothing less. Posting a link to the Skilled Liar ability which my character has still proved my point; the Bard (core) does not consistently out-lie a character with the Skilled Liar ability, all else being equal. In this case, a Rogue Core/Spy hybrid

Resorting to hyperbole doesn't change anything. Obviously there are many classes with skills. Sorry if I bored you into responding.

Re: Street Performer - cool... another class that's better than Rogue. How interesting and unique that is.

Meh. I get caught up in the labels, y'know, by thinking that an archaeologist bard is actually an archaeologist, or that a ranger is actually a ranger. It started with the Rogue idea popping into my head. Then the backstory quickly unfolded - his discovery of his look-alike, trading places, learning how to thrive in the streets as a burglar and con artist, betraying his mentors, dominating the filthy trash of the streets, and returning home to kill his look-alike and reclaim his place, now with a plethora of skills and a network of thugs at his beck and call. Like a Drow-twisted version of "the prince and the pauper" classic.

As for what I "could do", that ship has sailed. The game is well underway already. Further, I play to win, but not necessarily by having the best character. I optimize within the concept, instead of conceptualizing around the mechanics. Furthermore, I'm a stickler for continuity, so the idea of a ninja in Menzoberranzan just screams "op-farmer" to me. Call it a personal fault.

All of those stealth and manipulation skills are there for the bard, and many are better utilized by the bard.

A bard also deceives better not using magic, you know.

Quote:
[nonsense about bard and magic]
Protip: the alternative in Pathfinder isn't "having magic or having skills instead". The alternative is "having magic or having nothing instead".

ORLY?

I must agree with Cheapy on this one. Being a drow fundamentally changes tactics, behavior, and effects. We're just better than those lesser surface races, and "faerie" elves.

Being a weaker character class is less debilitating if you are a stronger race.

As a general statement, maybe. But when a Rogue is played well, it apparently does better than a Sorcerer, Priestess, Ranger and Fighter of the same race. Character class, it seems, isn't everything. This thread seems self indulgent in its exaggeration of just how "terrible" the Rogue is. I agree it is sub-optimal, and even replaceable.

To bring it further, note that if the DM introduced the game as a combat game or a dungeon crawler, or a heroic set of quests, I would have never picked a Rogue. More likely I'd have played a Wizard, simply because I've not played one in a long time. Or maybe a Druid, since I've never tried one.

But the game was introduced as "You are Noble Drow. This game is all about intrigue, manipulation, deception, and with a smattering of Underdark adventuring." Well a Rogue would fit perfectly into such a campaign. We're all evil liars, and Rogues are a fun way to do it.

Yes, yes, I hear a Bard can deceive even better. Using magic.
No, I don't care.
Magic is commonplace, and my kin are resistant. So many of us can identify a spell being cast, which requires more complications to obscure.
I prefer to simply bypass these facts by instead relying on sheer skill. Thus I do not have to rely as heavily on magic.
When I am disguised or hidden, I laugh when fools cast Dispel Magic or See the Invisible, assuming I'm as trite as the rest. Go ahead, waste your time, waste your power. When they can't get past my beautiful lies, they try to counteract or remove the Glibness effect which isn't there. They don't realize that I trick them all, evade them all, and eventually own them all as my pets, because I'm simply better than they are.

That's the concept I use for this - skill instead of magic. Especially since all Noble Drow can Dispel Magic 1/day. Especially since SR can ruin things, and most of the elite are casters who can identify spells being cast. If I really want to use magic, wands and scrolls are sufficient enough. See what I mean?

*Also. Is this a Pbp? I've been wanting to run/play in a drow campaign for years, but I simply can't find a group of players competent or interested enough to attempt it. Its a very different beast than your typical dungeon crawl.

Nope. We meet every 2nd Sunday and play for 6 hours.

The rogue doing well as a drow noble isn't a function of him being a rogue. It's due to him being a drow noble. Everything is a good choice as a drow noble.

Not when DD (level 3) is higher level than FF (level 2), so FF is completely useless in a DD effect.

and he's having fun, I thought he was claiming to be a major combat factor, but it's not the case. In a mostly-roleplaying high-stat group skills can be important, though he could do all listed and more as a bard-type or ranger-type. Those two generally being strictly superior is the argument against rogues being decent; but suboptimal does NOT mean 100% useless. You can still have a decent time with a mediocre character, especially when high ability scores blur the lines a bit.

+1

Unlike my Orc-brained allies (imagine ... A Drow charging an Ogre. Lolth must have been retching in Her web to see that), I don't try to be a glorious heroic combatant. I much more prefer to win slowly, quietly and without risk to myself. It's much more satisfying: Watching a sub-Drow fool run around, looking for me (the splendid person who cut and then tricked it) in vain, frantic, all while bleeding to death in his ignorant rage... it warms that cold little stone which passes for my heart.