All,
I love the style/motif of rogues, and I like their skills/mechanics, but I do not really enjoy the flavor of wielding two weapons. I also dont routinely like the flavor of two-handed weapon builds or bow builds, unless I am having a rare craving.
But mechanically, a rogue using a single one-handed weapon seems weak. And yet that is always how I envision my rogues.
Are there decent builds for this type of rogue? Would a build based on improved feint and vital strike and the improved sneak attacks (1s and 2s treated as 3s) be a good approach for closing a little of the gap?
Thanks!
You could go the dervish dance route.
One way to get the scimitar profeciency would be taking the swashbuckler archetype. That way you don't need high strength and get a benefit for having one hand free.
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If all you care about is doing damage, then TWF seems the best route...
In my own experience, TWF is a waste.
How often are you able to do a full attack in a state where you can SA without getting butchered yourself? By mid level that becomes exceedingly difficult as you face more unflankables, uncrittables, superior numbers, and bigger & smarter & more mobile enemies. By mid level you've already wasted 2 or more feats on a TWF chain you never use.
It's a trap, and any Rogue should be able to detect traps.
A build should instead be focused on doing more than just damage with SA, so the attack action is more than just "I do damage". For example, I enjoy Bleeding Strike because it means that when I SA, I pressure a foe to get healing or to rush the fight to avoid bleeding to death. Deliver this and then escape, run behind full cover, hide and repeat, or look for flanking buddies. The point of bleeding strike is to deliver SA to as many enemies as possible, maxing your DoT effect for both damage and wasted enemy actions if they heal.
I also like Offensive Defense, because when you add Combat Expertise and have 3 ranks in Acrobatics (for higher AC when fighting defensively), you can be an AC tank in a pinch on the round you SA.
But enough about SA.
Another big thing about a Rogue is that they have zero excuse to not have UMD maxed; they have the ranks for it and it's a class skill. That said, when SA isn't an option, you should always have some wands and low level scrolls handy. Sure, you're no mage, but when you find yourself up against a Black Pudding, would you rather flank it for no purpose, or cook it with a wand of scorching ray, or use that scroll of Grease to help the fighter escape the grapple?
In my case, with our party's insane perception checks and knack for stealth, we tend to be able to pick our fights. As a master of disguise and deception, I leverage this advantage causing most socially capable foes to be caught off guard. That surprise opener gives a substantial edge, and it's because of skills. Even True Seeing doesn't help against that... only high perception or sense motive can beat it, which means most magic-dependent foes or brutes are ideal victims.
As a skill monkey a Rogue needs to think about how to exploit with what he has. Most powerful people rely on magic, and using skills can slip through the cracks of many counter-magical measures. Think like this and you'll have so much fun you'll forget that you're playing a weak class. Let's face it... a rogue is incredibly weak, so you have to make up for it with your playing style.
I definitely dont view damage as my main things. To me, the main things are traps, locks, perception, stealth, sleight of hand, bluff, gather information. I just also want to be useful in a fight. From a roleplaying perspective, I like the idea of a single devastating hit, whether from stealth or when pretending to be friendly or in a straight up fight.
Your question then has no answer. One person's definition of viable is not going to match another.
I see this type of question on these boards all the time. The only person that can answer it is you and maybe your GM.
I know that doesn't help you but it's the truth.
To one person, a 3rd level rogue with a 14 str and a 16 dex fighting with a rapier for a total of +4 to hit and 1d6+2 damage (+2d6 on a sneak attack) would be totally viable.
To some on the boards it would be horrifyingly underpowered. To not take Weapon Finesse for the extra +1 would be sacrilege.
So really you're the only one that can answer your question.
Would the Knife Master archetype fit your concept?
What does knife master give up?
What fits my concept is 20 levels of rogue, or at least no spellcasting.
I am just wondering if a pure rogue with 1 weapon in 1 hand can be effective, and what feat/talent choices can make it the most effective on the occasions (stealth, solo, group fight) when I do have to stab someone. I am not interested in giving up trap finding or sneak attack dice.
If the answer is "it kinda sucks, but a vital strike build is the best approach" then thats fine. Or maybe a build that does str damage and maximized defenses and chance to hit is the way to go. Thats all i am looking for.
But i dont want to give up max sneak attack dice or skills/trapfinding. I am less concerned with how frequently per round i can get multiple sneak attacks off. I would like to improve the different TYPES of circumstances i can get a sneak attack off, even if its just one. And any other options that make that one strike nasty, the better.
Thanks!
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See this last post says it all: "I would like to improve the different TYPES of circumstances i can get a sneak attack off, even if its just one."
Your answer here is to take the Improved Feint path. It lets you deliver SA without flanking, and even if the enemy is looking you in the face and has Uncanny Dodge.
The other benefit of Improved Feint is that it requires a wonderful skill - Bluff. Bluff has combat and non-combat benefits, such as bluff-to-distract-to-hide, or canter-to-plan-ambush-while-chatting, plus the obvious feinting, and lying your face off. That said, Skill Focus - Bluff is a feat I selected, and have zero regrets for doing so. That +3 becomes +6 by level 10, and if you have stuff like a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 more) and Ring of Mind Shielding (Detect Lies? Sorry!), your chances of messing with everyone and their dog starts to outpace even the CR-relevant outsiders' abilities.
Spring attacking can also be a nice tactic.
Ultimately, I think rogue benefits a LOT from a level or two of multiclassing. Two levels of ranger, say, open up martial weapons, more BAB, better saves, more class skills, etc.
Cool. I definitely picture the character in my mind as being a guy who talks his way into and out of trouble. So bluff, improved feint, and skill focus bluff feel pretty good. I also like the idea of quick draw and improved initiative just for getting the drop on people at times.
Thanks for all responses!
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Take a look at the Halfling Opportunist prestige class from Halflings of Golarion, too. Obviously, you have to be a halfling, which would be a down side to some people.
But it's only a five level prc, only slows your sneak attack dice progression by one level, gives the very cool Exploitive Maneuver feature, and the capstone is that every Attack of Opportunity becomes a sneak attack!
I'm not quite there yet with my Halfling Opportunist - only up to level 3 in Pathfinder Society with that character - so I'm not sure how effective it really is. But the concept really looks cool, anyway.
You could also try going with the sap adept/sap master feat tree, getting a lot of bludgeoning/nonlethal damage for the "quick knock out" type of rogue. Sap is a light weapon, so it can be finessed.
Using Improved/Greater/Quick Dirty Trick could also be an alternative to feinting (using Dirty Trick to blind your opponent).
Depending upon the amount of magic items in your game, wands like shocking grasp, chill touch, and scorching ray might be options as well.
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The feats would look like
REQUIRED: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Skill Focus - Bluff, Improved Initiative
OPTIONAL: Any feat with the word "feint" in it
Improved init is a must, simply because winning initiative means flat footed enemies on round 1.
For Talents, pick at least one to make your SA do something in addition to damage, like boost your AC or inflict bleeding. If you pick multiple, think about full attack SA and how you can mix the SA-tweakers. Other tasty talents are Fast Sneak and Favored Terrain is awesome for certain terrain-centered campaigns (like the underdark campaign I'm playing), which opens up Hide in Plain Sight at level 10+.
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Personally, I picked Improved Unarmed Strike simply because...
- I like the flavor of being able to kill people with SA when I appear unarmed and defenseless.
- When BAB reached +8 I can take Stunning Fist, and my GM interprets the feat so that the stun lasts exactly 1 round from the point it's delivered... so AoO stun, SA-full-attack.
- If I want I can take combat styles. I was thinking Snake Style chain since it lets you make a Sense Motive check (I have max ranks) to replace AC sometimes. Plus you get extra attacks out of nowhere which is stellar when flanking.
YMMV on that idea. It's not exactly optimal when I have a shortsword +2 of subtlety and another PC is my personal slave and a Hobgob Monk who knows to ALWAYS flank with me (else get the requisite beating later).
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If you can get your hands on an Agile weapon, the dex build becomes very viable. You can pump your dex as high as they can pump their strength, and Sneak Attack makes up for the bonus damage they get from bigger weapons and two-handing; not only that, your main stat also boosts your AC and maneuverability. You might have to sink a feat or two into it, but IMO the skills make up for that.
PS: avoid the "replace 1s on sneak attack" talent at all costs! It's mathematically proven to be terrible.
Design Manager
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It might be best to get out of rogue after getting the low lying talents.
Duelist only loses 2 skill points/level, works with high int, and gives you crittable precision damage. You have rapier proficiency.
I actually had an elf Rogue/Duelist who maintained his usefulness as the party skill monkey over 16 levels of play and was neck and neck with the fighter for melee damage during much of it, though having an Agile weapon helped immensely there. He was also superior defensively, with better saves and the ability to shut down numerous attacks a round with Crane Wing and Parry.
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level 20 Half - Elf Rogue
-Stats (25 point)-
STR 27 =14 (+6 magic item)(+5 level)(+2 racial)
DEX 20 =14 (+6 magic item)
CON 20 =14 (+6 magic item)
INT 14 =14
WIS 10 =10
CHA 20 =14 (+6 magic item)
01 Skill Focus Intimidate, Skill Focus Bluff
02 Talent - Trap Spotter
03 Combat Reflexes
04 Talent - Combat Trick (Combat Expertise)
05 Improved Feint
06 Talent - Weapon Training
07 Dazzling Display
08 Talent - Strong Impression
09 Shatter Defenses
10 A Talent - Greater Feint
11 Sap Adept
12 A Talent - Improved Evasion
13 Sap Master
14 A Talent - Skill Mastery
15 Vital Strike
16
17 Improved Vital Strike
18
19 Toughness
20
-Method-
Against single targets use Feint as a move action to make the target denied its dex until ur next turn. When fighting multiple enimies perform an aoe intimidate as a full round action that makes all enemies flat footed to u for x rounds to get ur SA off. Have all ur damage be nonlethal to double down on ur SA damage and then perform cop de gras when targets are uncontentious our take them prisoner or w/e. Intimidates = d20+46 and Bluff = d20+38.
Thanks! I appreciate all the additional replies!
If you don't like the dervish dance idea you could as well dip monk and use flurry with one weapon and unarmed strikes. You still only use one weapon but you kick your opponents in addition to that. Very rogue like.