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Last game, my group made a fistful of mistakes. It cost us our Cleric (who got kil't) and our Fighter (who /rageQuit). The fight was well above our CR, but had glaring weaknesses that the entire party could easily exploit to make it 1-sided in our favor. Instead, some of us got all excited, threw caution and strategy to the wind, and made some costly tactical errors.
The fight wasn't plot important, but the Cleric was central to our mission, which is pretty much 75% of the DM's prep. That, plus the fact that the Cleric's death can be blamed on the bad judgement of others, led the DM to fluff-rescue the Cleric from oblivion. A consequence that even the Cleric's player doesn't like. We'll see how next game pans out.
So, that said, I figured that there are a few hard lessons to be learned. Alot of them are obvious. But then, if you've ever read Sun Tzu's Art of War, you'll find that common sense, or obvious things, can be profound not in and of themselves, but in their relationship to other ideas within the context; simple is often best.
So, let me begin with the "lessons learned" from last game. Please share and append your own one-liners, and some separated context is always nice too.
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I actually plan on doing a video series detailing this very thing. Here's a few pointers.
*Communicate. Communicate. Communicate.
*Stick to your plans. If one person deviates then the whole plan fails.
*Learn to improvise. Plans fail.
*Secret characters are characters that are not part of the group. Talk about your characters, boast, brag, whine, as long as you're giving information the group as a whole knows where your character stands, what they can do, and where you fit in the strategy.
*A dynamic entrance into a room with lots of explosions big men with swords and sudden flashes of light can demoralize weaker encounters before the fight even starts. This is the lesson of SWAT teams everywhere.
*The only hitpoint that matters in combat is the last one.
*Avoid symmetry. Symmetrical parties have easily exploited weaknesses.
*Whether or not you believe in roles it is important to the group to be diverse.
*The only hitpoint that matters in combat is the last one.This one could use more context. If you're not sure why, then try saying that to the party wizard when he's at 10 HP, helpless, and being threatened by a greataxe. His HP probably aren't gonna be the last of the encounter, but they are still going to matter to someone.
If he's helpless then those ten HP mean jack. Welcome to coup de grace land.
If he's helpless then those ten HP mean jack. Welcome to coup de grace land.Welcome to Missing The Point land. If death is an immanent possibility for him (or any ally) then his HP starts to matter very quickly. I only mentioned low HP for flavor.
I think your one-liner is better applied to enemies than allies, and should be reworded to reflect that. That's all I'm saying.
Give a terrible analogy get a terrible response. You applied conditions that have nothing to do with the HP total of the wizard in question and irrelevant to the statement.
It applies both ways. Anything with more than one HP can still full attack, cast, or any number of things that can make someones day very bad indeed.
It is also a generalized philosophy meaning that damage that pc's take is in fact inconsequential until it brings them to a point where they can no longer cause significant harm. Hence the only HP that matters is the last one in both cases.
*The only hitpoint that matters in combat is the last one.This one could use more context. If you're not sure why, then try saying that to the party wizard when he's at 10 HP, helpless, and being threatened by a greataxe. His HP probably aren't gonna be the last of the encounter, but they are still going to matter to someone.
TatkXT is right though. The last hitpoint is the only one that matters. So if you are risking that last one (by not having enough "buffer" HP to survive the next round), you're risking the most important hitpoint. If you're not risking that last hitpoint (b/c there's no way the next round of blows can take you down), then don't fret over your HP so much.
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I begin by saying I fully recognize and respect caution. It has a role to play in all things. However, in my experience, many more battles are lost and many opportunities squandered by meekness more than boldness. so...
There is no saving throw against confidence.
(In less quotable terms, this means that players should use declarative sentences instead of asking questions of the GM. If you have an awesome idea that requires a 30' wide chasm with a fallen tree across it, do not ask, "What do I see around me?" say "Esteban spins around, catching sight of an old oak leaning precariously over a muddy ravine. He runs up the sloping trunk, and his weight tears the last of its roots free, knocking it down over the chasm as he leaps and rolls to his feet on the far side. He turns as he draws his elven curveblade, smirking and beckoning the armored hellknights to follow.")
Your character cannot do anything you think it can't.
(never say what you can't do. The second you throw your hands in the air and say "I don't have any spells that will effect this demon!" or "I don't know how to use wands" you limit your character.)
Take control of the enemy's actions.
(You don't need dominate person to control an enemy. You just need to know what you want and what they want. Do you want them to walk through a door? Open a box? Call for the guards? Step onto a trap? Some basic creativity can turn bluff checks, minor illusions, ghost sounds, or just good battlefield positioning into a huge advantage. Every round you make the enemy do your job for you is a round in the right direction)
Know thine ally.
(Watch your friends. Pay attention on THEIR turns, not just yours. If you know their habits and strategies, you can choose your action with much greater care. If you know your druid is fond of fogging up the fights, then you know where to stand to either take advantage of or avoid the mist. If you know your rogue likes to use hes hat of disguise to impersonate enemies that split off from the group, lure one around a corner or through a door for her. Does your wizard like using summon spells? Give him some cover so he doesn't get hit while casting for a round. Barbarian with Great Cleave? Dimension Door her into a pack of enemies and watch a tear come to her eye.)
Terrain Mastery. It's not just for Horizon Walkers anymore.
(DR doesn't protect you from drowning. Spell resistance doesn't reduce falling damage. Even golems take a penalty for squeezing. Zombies can't use doorknobs. It can be hard at times, but try to remember that the world isn't actually made of blank 5' square grids. It's made of loose floorboards, chandeliers, fireplaces, steep hills, patches of poison ivy, loose boulders, apple carts, and the clouds of biting flies. Use the terrain to your advantage and to hinder your enemies at every juncture. stand on the bar to take high ground advantage while kicking a pewter stein into some mook's face. Move to the favorable places, force enemies into the bad ones. In conjuction with confidence, teamwork, and creativity, every fight can be epic.)
Thank you!
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I'm not one to let a good thread die so let me expand a bit.
*The only thing more dangerous then a group of optimized characters is a group of optimized characters utilizing their abilities synergistically to produce something truly terrifying. Some Examples:
~A Sohei monk mounted on a summoners quadruped eidolon.
~A bad touch cleric of chaos and madness paired with a save or die caster.
~An Archer Ranger paired with a battle field controller.
*The only skill you can't have too much of is Perception followed by Sense Motive.
*Healing is a group responsibility not a character responsibility. All can benefit form having everyone at 100%.
*Initiative sets the tone. A group with high initiative determines the tempo of the fight.
*Initiative means jack if you don't have good positioning from the start.
*The Drag, Reposition, and Bull Rush combat maneuvers work on friendlies as well as enemies. (though this might need some clarification)
It's somewhat relevant, but I've found a simple rule change has improved one of my groups attention span and general interest in combat (or separated the people who are actually interested from those playing on their iphone waiting to be told it's their turn). It's also increased the number of times people chime in with "wait a sec, I have something to help that", or in other words, it's improved teamwork.
Group initiative for the PC's. We rotate who rolls, either whoever is the most significant PC (like whoever started the scene or instigated combat), or we take turns around the table. Who ever rolls, we use their bonus and everyone goes on the same number. The GM does this for all the bad guys too (though usually uses the best one).
When it is the player's turn, they determine who goes and in what order. Often times the cleric, bard or summoner goes first, as they can provide a buff to everyone that round. Next, usually go the flankers, people who are in position to set up flanks for the people who really need them (for the rogues or our bigger damage dealers), sometimes they're superseded by someone dropping an aoe spell. After that goes the rest of us.
Once we're done, or the GM notices a moment of silence, the bad guys go. Once a bad guy starts his turn, if you weren't paying attention, you lose your action. This means the people who are interested in the game are usually pretty active about getting their turn in, we talk to each other about what we're doing, we coordinate... like a group of people who go into combat and rely on each other to stay alive. There's less waiting, if someone isn't ready or needs to look something up, someone else goes.
It's a rule that more naturally teaches and encourages the things you want people to learn about combat: attention, planning and detail.
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Good article. I'm going to suggest this to my group and see if they are receptive to this. Right now we do everything on our turn, including talking.
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Last Sunday was one big battle which took the lion's share of the game. There were four factions:
- The PCs; four Noble Drow (level 5) and a modified Hobgoblin Monk (level 4 slave; given racial tweaks to reach 22 points like the Drow; new player).
- The NPC slaves; three Ogres, 7 Orc Barbarians (level 2), and 4 Hobgoblin Warriors (level 1). These slaves were our spoils from last game, and we spent the first 2 hours of the session breaking them in.
- Enemy Drow; a Shadowdancer (I guess around 7th or 8th level), some other stealthy types, and too many warriors to count.
- Rival Drow; our priestess' sister sent a group of warriors to crush the enemies, and thus steal success from underneath us. Again, too many to count.
The timeline went thus:
- I and my allies were summoned away. Only our alchemist and our newly broken slaves (including the Hobbo-monk) stayed behind at the warehouse. She (the alchemist) led the slaves in efforts to fortify the warehouse, as our base of operations.
- We nobles were brought before the party priestess' sister, and (gasp) our priestess who was miraculously brought back from death. The party watched as the fighter (her brother; whose player /ragequit last session) was sacrificed to Lolth for failing to protect his sister. Then I watched as the Ranger and Sorcerer were flayed within an inch of death for their part in the debacle last game. Having a massive bluff check, I got away with little more than a scratch. Our priestess' sister (another, higher ranking priestess) then mocked us, claiming she was going to do what we couldn't - she leaked the location of our warehouse to the enemy, and is sending troops to pincer them. "A shame for whoever you left behind at the warehouse, they're probably dead by now." We commandeered some steeds and blazed a trail to the battleground. The sorcerer (whose player wasn't there) separated from the group for some reason en route.
- The Monk managed to spot the stealthy enemies who got into the warehouse, and raised the alarm before being poisoned to sleep. The Alchemist managed to actually repel the invaders using Oil of Daylight, who were jumped by the Rival warriors as they were regrouping outside.
- The group arrived in the middle of a big fight, and we each did our own thing (which seems idiotic, but wait!). The ranger was still wounded and had CON damage from his flaying, but used his abilities with the lessons learned from last game to great effect, evading any chance of being attacked. I used SLAs and my Wand of Silent Image from a hidden location to mess with the conflict; I wanted to make sure nobody lived but us, and created all manner of mistrust and infighting. For example, we hit both the rivals and enemies with the same color of Faerie Fire, so in the magical darkness nobody knew who was who. Silent Image was used to create images of badly concealed Drow Sign on the glowing combatants, delivering messages of treachery and confusion. That kind of thing. The Alchemist and Hobbomonk made great use of their fodder, using them for battlefield control with wise placement, and minimizing risk by using them up first. The priestess mixed her powers beautifully by setting up zones of deeper darkness among the fights, and employing her negative channeling. It was cool to imagine a zone of pitch darkness appearing, then filling with the collective screams of her victims.
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==LESSONS LEARNED==
- You don't have to be together to use teamwork! Especially if your abilities are ranged ones and you're good communicators. This is how we beat the Shadowdancer leader; we separated, I found her, annoyed her, delayed her, hit her with faerie fire, and kept her from escaping until the group coalesced and crushed her.
- Buffs + Fodder = win. This is why Bards rock, and why Summoners rock, and why Druids rock, and why Conjurers rock, and why Clerics with thralls rock. There are too many class options which provide this tactic, so there's no excuse not to have it in your game.
- Being outnumbered can be good if you think, and take your time. Enemy cohesion can be broken up and then enemies can be used against each other. This usually results in fewer enemies, and weaker enemies. Exploit this whenever you can.
- The best way to win is to pick your fights! When I was facing that shadowdancer alone, I knew I couldn't win. So I messed with her, again and again. I made myself a nuisance she couldn't afford to ignore, and then alternated between fighting defensive and full defense until my allies arrived.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
"Ma'am, I got there first with the most men."
or
"git thar fustest with the mostest."
Get to the battle first. With the most battle ready group will win every time. This takes two things. One scouting is the first thing that has to be done. You need to know what the terrain is, and what you’re fighting. Two control of movement on the battle field. Where you’re denying them movement or making your movement easy.
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My latest lesson:
Rogues can tank against assassin types quite well, thanks to 3+ ranks in Acrobatics and Fighting Defensive/Full Defense actions. That, plus uncanny dodge, make a Rogue suddenly able to hold the line against 2 ganking bosses quite well!
Granted, a Barbarian also has U.D. but a Rogue is far more likely to have the acrobatics to crank that +3 or +6 into AC.
Did I just find a new pseudo-role for Rogues: counter-assassins?
Some tips I've picked up over the years:
- A player should write down initiative and keep track of it publicly. It's critical to know who's action comes at what point in the round.
For example, a character knocked to -11 who will die at -12 need to be helped before their next turn, but who should do it? NOT the character who's other option was to finish off the boss monster before it's next action!
- Delay actions to get in the right order.
It doesn't matter if you go one initiative count before the enemy, or ten, so get your team in order first. This will frequently mean letting a melee character charge before blocking the path, holding off on entering melee until a spell has been placed, holding an action until an ally can get into a flanking position, etc.
- Focus fire!
Following on the previous statement "The only hit point that matters is the last one," don't spread out your damage between too many targets. If you take one out at a time, you stop that one from taking any more actions.
- Out is out.
If an enemy is asleep, paralyzed, blinded, or otherwise made ineffective, don't waste time on it until the active threats are addressed. I've seen too many rogues (or other characters) take a round to coup de grace a helpless opponent who would have been just as helpless three rounds later when the fight was over.
- Keep your allies informed.
I like to report HP totals as a fraction, 19/44 would be "Nineteen out of forty-four." If you're grappled, need aid, etc. it's good to let your friends know before it's too late.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Read your spells and abilities fully. You may find new ways to use them besides the obvious.
Fun example: create pit.
When the pit opens up, creatures in that 10x10 area get a reflex save to hop over into the nearest open space instead of falling in.
A creature who ends its turn adjacent to said pit will need to make a save (with a +2 bonus) or tumble in.
It's your turn. There's an orc who looks like they'll probably walk over to Squishy and attack. So you cast Create Pit under him. If he falls, fine. If he makes his save, he hops onto the edge of the pit. He then stands there safely until his turn, then waltzes on over to Squishy and attacks, as planned.
Suppose instead of casting, you ready an action to cast it if the orc becomes adjacent to Squishy. You wait for the orc's turn, and he moves over to Squishy. You cast. He makes his save, and hops into an open space. Except this time, it's his turn and he's used up a move action and he's adjacent to the pit. Now if he attacks, he'll end up having to make a second save!
But wait, Squishy's next to the pit too! No worries, he only has to save if he ends his turn there! He can just walk away!
So remember: two saves (when they only need to fail one) are better than one. Cast create pit via a readied action whenever possible!
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Hello.
Been awhile since my last update. We're infiltrating arach-tinilith right now via a hidden entrance into the 50 floors of spectre-haunted catacombs. A few more things were learned.
The last fights were...
- a massive chasm with ettercaps (around 8) and an Ogre Spider.
- a large sized chaos beast, in a winding tunnel with a chasm.
- a bunch of spectres (we tricked them and ran).
- a huge sized spider-shaped construct with petrification breath.
So, how about this?
My group (level 4) has a Feral Alchemist who does crazy damage, then gets focus fired and dropped. The rest of combat is a task for the Oracle to heal him enough to open his eyes each round. We also have a tanky Fighter (full plate, heavy shield, warhammer) who has AC 25 (the Alchy has 18). He fails to attract enough enemy attention, since his own damage is considerably lower. I'm playing a witch, and I do what I can in battlefield control and debuffs, but it's only so much. The 5th man is an an archer ranger, he 5ft steps every turn and rapidshots. He has a greatsword if enemies get too close, but his strength is definitely archery.
So, any suggestions for the alchemist staying alive? Holding back to attract less attention doesn't seem very fun.
Edit: Note he's a Vivisectionist, so no bombs. Otherwise it would've been a nice ranged option for him.
So, how about this?
My group (level 4) has a Feral Alchemist who does crazy damage, then gets focus fired and dropped. The rest of combat is a task for the Oracle to heal him enough to open his eyes each round. We also have a tanky Fighter (full plate, heavy shield, warhammer) who has AC 25 (the Alchy has 18). He fails to attract enough enemy attention, since his own damage is considerably lower. I'm playing a witch, and I do what I can in battlefield control and debuffs, but it's only so much. The 5th man is an an archer ranger, he 5ft steps every turn and rapidshots. He has a greatsword if enemies get too close, but his strength is definitely archery.
So, any suggestions for the alchemist staying alive? Holding back to attract less attention doesn't seem very fun.
Edit: Note he's a Vivisectionist, so no bombs. Otherwise it would've been a nice ranged option for him.
Better battlefield control. More discipline concerning movement.
Seriously it's time to learn how to divide and conquer.
I'm thinking the first action the alchemist does is either mutagen, or charge and attack.
This is wasteful.
His first action is to either A. Buff and move off to the side, back or around in such a way as he doesn't get charged/flanked/cut off and give the archer room to fire. or B. Double move in such a way as he doesn't get charged/flanked/cutoff and give the archer room to fire.
Let the heavy armor in first, Let them march up and start thunking people on the head. Wolverine can wait until collossus has people good and occupied before moving in and ripping people apart. Serve as the hamme to the fighters anvil.
On your end you should be trying to nullify key targets before they become a legitimate threat. This includes archers, spell casters, or low will save bruisers.
The fighter needs to put himself in a position where he can reach out and get in people's way as best as possible. The alchemist needs to be able to hold off and wait for the enemy to come to the fighter and the hop in while the fighter is being a helpful flank partner and wipe the other guy out before focus firing even becomes an issue. If you and the archer are doing there jobs well the only people that make it to the frontline to your alchemist and fighter are the ones who managed to survive a hail of arrows and spells.
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If the brute can't deliver damage as he is, and isn't even getting attacked, he should drop the shield and 2-hand his warhammer.
If the Oracle is healing, someone already messed up. Round 1 should be battlefield control or buff.
In fact, the alchemist should open up with BF control or buff, too, to delay his damage output while securing victory for the group. Then work with the brute to achieve flank.
The alchy is trying to "win" round 1, and this is his hubris. The group needs to be more patient. Use cover, use higher ground, that kind of thing.
I'm already opening with spells like Glitterdust or Web to delay melee or tie up the artillery (tangled up 4 archers/gunslingers for 3 rounds last combat, and forced them off their high ground to get a clear shot at us, and it was still a close fight), but I can't get all the targets at once (well, usually). Of course, I target Slumber onto enemies that I expect to have low Will, and the least allies around to wake them.
The Oracle is Lore, and picked most of his spells for out of combat social interaction or winning knowledge checks. The most useful thing he can do is heal, or cast Protection from Evil or Pilfering Hand to attempt a disarm. He usually gets to cast Command in the first few rounds as well, which can be nice.
The Alchemist can enlarge person, which often serves to just make him a more appropriate and easier to hit target. He also has Flame Breath, which is kinda poor, but I guess it's something. It's true that he doesn't maneuver to flanks too often, but he generally just doesn't need to with his claw/claw/bite. Probably wish he kept his bombs now, since the SA is overkill, and having a powerful ranged attack would've definitely helped him do something while staying out of trouble. If he waits for the armor, he misses out on that first round SA for winning init. An acceptable loss I guess, maybe he could open with a crossbow shot then drop it when the fighter gets in there. The main issue is though, even when the fighter is in there, he has no way to draw attacks to himself.
I'll suggest to the Fighter that he could 2hand it, but I imagine he's set on using a shield. We'll see. He took Step Up over Weapon Specialization at lvl4, so he's pretty good at harassing, at the cost of damage. Also easily tempted to break position. He also often has spells giving him trouble (not mental spells, but direct damage that's touch attack or reflex), so he's not without need for healing as well.
We haven't really been in situations where we get to set up the ambush, so much as we enter someone's domain, try to reason with them, resort to longsword diplomacy. Currently we're adventuring in wilderness, so we don't have any chokepoints to take advantage of.
I appreciate the advice, but the main thing I'm getting here is that the alchemist should be waiting to move in after the fighter. I don't see how this will help him avoid drawing attention once he does let it rip though.
If it helps, I'll link the sheets. There's not much we have in buffing.
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=24805 (Alchemist, his Str is 16 without mutagen)
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=24329 (Witch)
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=24895 (Oracle)
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=24319 (Fighter)
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=26399 (Ranger, not sure why it's unlisted, but he has a +1 enh on that bow now)
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Long time since updating...
Probably the reason this thread has fallen to neglect is because my team has become rather solid over the last few months; in combat, we've learned to become very complimentary, and started getting creative. For example, since I took Improved Unarmed Strike, my Monk slave and I are beginning to use the flank + nonlethal beatdown technique. This was exceptionally fun when, while protecting a caravan being hunted by mercenaries (which we hired... it's complicated) we subdued a Basilisk and used it as a "gift" for the pursuing scouts.
This leads me into more of the "combat and teamwork" theme: Developing as a team.