Shieldmarshal

Coinspinner's Song's page

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vikingson wrote:
Fitzwalrus wrote:
.....they may be sorted out....

They are not. Very little info on that, even on Admiral Thrune.

The fate and coordination of the NPCs relevant in several parts of the plot is not really all that.... superior. In fact, given Harrigan's resources in AP-V, it seems like a small miracle that he cannot find a way to slip out of Druvalia's clutches.

Sorry to revive a 10 year old comment. But I love the idea, and I'm trying to figure out how you would prepare for the PCs vs. Plugg fight with these details.

Wouldn't Plug then offer up this HUGE secret to spare his life?

Even without proof, that seems way too early to drop that Harrigan is working with Cheliax. And becomes it literally comes out of left field, it's something the PCs would be apt to believe!

I'm trying to write a Harrigan redemption plot into this to keep it fresh for myself (3rd time running it now). I've always been bothered by his capture and so far never really needed to explain anything, but this just seems like it would add even more into needing to fill in all those details to know what exactly to say to the players.


*Khan* wrote:

I think it is really great !

But l think you should let all the players write up a few names on contacts (2-3 friends and 1 enemy) they have from their background storry to draw on.
So skip that part of the trait and make it avaible for all the players.

That makes much more sense. Especially with this campaign! Thank you so much. We ended up tweaking the trait a bit too, because I wanted to incorporate more of her backstory. I'm not exactly sure how to word the last part, so I'll place it here for comments.

Port Pauper: Orphaned at a young age, you grew up on the docks in Port Peril, and have worked every job the Shackles has to offer. Dealing with swindling merchants, shady pirates, and corrupt guards, has taught you how to deal with a multitude of miscreants and to always keep looking over your shoulder. As such you gain a +1 trait bonus to Will saves. Finally, the last few years you have spent salvaging shipwrecks and so you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to all skill checks associated with sunken ships, and all non-naturally occurring objects underwater.
You stopped into the Formidably Maid to have a quick drink after work and got to chatting with a few patrons there that you had met on the dock earlier that day. You indulged a bit too much and woke up in the cargo hold of a ship. Well, not your first time... I guess you’ll see if this was your own doing or someone else’s.

The change is moving the +1 from Diplomacy checks on docks and shipyards (something she's already really good at anyway as a Sorcerer), to something to help with exploration of sunken ships, as well as the grates, chests, cages, and traps in the grindylow and sahaugin caverns. There's not much in traits or feats for that matter that apply to salvage divers, so here we go.

My thought process is that a lot of the story plot points happen with these underwater checks, and so a little bonus here and there should lead to a bit more discovery.


Hello all!

So I am getting ready to run this a second time (first time made it through the first 3 books before it petered out). This group is just finishing Wrath of the Righteous (Of which I was a player), so I feel good about us actually finishing this AP, which I am excited about.

So on to the reason I'm posting.

I have a player who's going with the cross blooded sorcerer (aquatic) and elemental (water). Which allows her to make any element spell a water type spell, and then treat it as +1 caster level. Super clever! Thematically element water and aquatic are pretty close together, so the drawback of -2 to will saves seems a bit harsh, but such is life. I agreed that we could do something to make it a little easier. I was looking at the Peg Leg campaign trait that gives you a +1 to Fortitude saves, and a +1 to damage rolls against aquatic animals and so I thought about just creating my own campaign trait for her. So here we go:

Port Pauper: Orphaned at a young age, you grew up on the docks in Port Peril, and have worked every job from loading cargo to salvaging shipwrecks. Dealing with swindling merchants, shady pirates, and corrupt guards, has taught you how to deal with a multitude of miscreants, and as such you gain a +1 trait bonus to Charisma-based checks while you are on the docks or the shipyards of any port city, and the years of looking over your shoulder has also sharpened your wits and as such you gain a +1 trait bonus to Will saves. Because of the shear amount of comings and goings, you also "know a guy/gal" and gain 1 friendly contact that that can be named at any time and that can be in any port you are currently in.
You stopped into the Formidably Maid to have a quick drink after work and got to chatting with a few patrons there that you had met on the dock earlier that day. You indulged a bit too much and woke up in the cargo hold of a ship. Well, not your first time... I guess you’ll see if this was your own doing or someone else’s.

So, the breakdown of the three abilities compared to Peg Leg.

1) +1 to Will saves. Equal to +1 to Fortitude saves for Peg Leg.
2) +1 to Charisma-based checks on the docks or in shipyard's. Very situational. So much in fact that it won't even be used in the first book. My opinion is that this is far more situational than the +1 to damage against aquatic animals you get with Peg Leg, so add on another small benefit to balance it.
3) The "I know a guy/gal". Basically the Han Solo plot device. It's tough to value this, but having it be a one off, I'm thinking the three abilities here are on par with Peg Leg, or any other S&S campaign trait.

She loves it, and it fit's her backstory better than any of the other campaign traits do. But I told her it's not in stone yet. Still checking for balance.

Because it's a trait bonus on the Charisma checks, it keeps her from stacking any other charisma based traits, which I like. So a big part becomes meaningless if she picks up a +1 to diplomacy or something from another trait. It also keeps her from adding a +1 to will saves from any other trait.

What do you guys think? OP, right on, or UP vs. other S&S campaign traits?


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Great Item(s). My only thing would be that each is an actual piece of eight. They were called that because the were 1/8 of a coin, like a little pie wedge. Often sailors would tie it into their hair or wear it as an earring as it would typically be enough to cover burial costs. But that keeps it as real to what a piece of eight is as possible.


JonathonWilder wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:

@JonathanWilder - I wouldn't suggest the change to the player, though. A mouse wizard is awesome but with flaws that are challenging and fun to overcome - the sorcerer you suggested just feels good with no drawbacks, which are half the fun of earning your way to awesomeness.

Edit - I dunno, I always liked Raistlin more than Elminster. Raistlin was amazing but flawed, Elminster was a glorified Mary Sue.

There would be challenges, as you cannot ignore the Strength of 1, and I am sure the DM would want to the humanoid familiar. From what I see from Noble Wild it doesn't invalidate the challenges or necessarily distract from the roleplaying possibilities.

For example, how serious would other talk a talking mouse, calling the human with them their familiar and saying they can use magic? Many I feel would laugh for even mock, more what if the mouse character get separated from their familiar/companion? It would limit their travelling ability unless they have a spell ready such as Fly or some other movement related spell.

Also I admit Sorcerer was a personal choice, not having to worry about a spellbook very much being a benefit of the innate challenges of a wizard. Sure their familiar choice carry the spellbook for them but having to spend the time writing in it and the consideration of how large the writing has to be... it would be something some players may not want to deal with.

Really a Arcane Blooded Sorcerer is the easiest choice but not automatically the best choice. I was merely considering the fact that a combat mouse would be next to impossibly, especially with the Strength of 1 and Diminutive size thus nearly requiring a spellcasting race of some sort.

The Noble Wild book merely helps make certain details of Pathfinder mechanics easier to work with or more importantly allow more ideas to be possible, not negates the challenges that would need to be faced.

I'm picturing the mouse writing in his spell book in the language of the squirrels from The Emperors' New Groove. "Squeak, Squeak, Squeakers, Squeakity Squeak Squeaking Squeak."


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MrCharisma wrote:

I like them.

This isn't a new thing, but this campaign sounds like a good place for a set of DUNGEON RINGS.

Yes! I have thought of that being a drop in here as well! Sounds like a second book drop kind of item.

Here is what I have for the first book item set (that could change though).

Western Adventure Book 1 Treasure.


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I haven't had a chance to follow up on all the great new posts yet today, but had an idea for a couple items for the first few levels.

After surviving level 1 (initial idea is they can't leave the town until they solve a recent murder, as they are implicated as well, and they have their weapons taken away until they prove their innocence). The party is sent to track down the orchestrator of the murder and are deputized by the sheriff (aka Young Guns, sort of)

Anyway I came up with a cool idea for four deputy badges, i think. Though it seems like it could do a touch more. Keep in mind that they will be getting these at the start of level 2.

Deputy badge

Slotless

Each badge grants a +1 inherent bonus to Ride skill checks as well as a +1 inherent bonus to one of the four categories.

Diplomacy
Bluff
Intimidate
Sense Motive

The party chooses which badge to give each member.

Of course the sheriff himself has one that is +2 to Ride checks and +1 to each of the four above skills, possibly given to the party when they return from their quest, or tie it into when they clear out an outlaw town and set up their own rule of law.

And the second item

Bardic Phonograph

I have not built a bard before, but the thought of being able to put bardic performance or inspire courage on a phonograph that takes a full round action to activate but then plays for 1-3 minutes sounds pretty darn cool. Not sure what else you could get it to do, but it sure fits with the western timeline.


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I am also having trouble coming up with monster encounters (Custom ones of course). Of course there are the normal desert dwellers (snakes, lizards, scorpions, coyotes/wolves, Cactuses, etc. There are a bunch within the desert terrain. Oh, and in the ghost town, of course, G...G...G...G...Ghostsssss!) and NPCs are of course great, but does anyone have some good ideas for non humanoid custom encounters? Pathfinder AP's do a really job with custom monsters, so I would like to come up with a few that fit within the story.

I did come up up with mimic water barrels or watering troths, but was thinking more like new creatures or humanoid races that live in the gold mine caves and that's why they have been abandoned (Have the PCs exploring it and clearing it out early in the campaign, only to find out later on that that helped the land barons make more money to finance their genocide).

Swarms and stampeding animal herds for sure. Though that already exists somewhat.

P.S. I was also thinking this would be a good campaign to have an abnormal amount of cursed items (amateur magic item crafters trying to make a quick buck)

Just some more random thoughts.


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MrCharisma wrote:
Thanks guys I'm glad you liked the duel idea (I just thought it up last night, so i'm sure there are some tweaks needed). I do think the "cheater" idea needs work.

I'm busy writing, so please don't stop the ideas as they come to you.

MrCharisma wrote:
Regarding extra damage for firearms: Once you get past about 5th level the lack of damage starts to be really noticable. Without adding STR/DEX to damage firearms and crossbows see almost no use. Adding damage per level is a way around it without having to get too rules-heavy. Having said that, 1/2 level damage is probably too much, 1/3 or even 1/4 is probably better (I' thinking 1/3 now but I haven't tested it).

Would that be a rule in the campaign or maybe an optional favored class bonus that all levels could take (I kind of love this idea)? I figured there would be enough party members proficient with firearms and enough firearm drops, as well as crafters that can make magical firearms that it might curb this for quite a few levels, but 1/2 level to damage if you take it as a favored class bonus seems fun. Make it so you can use it with quite a few classes and races, but not gunslinger? Maybe even tie it into the campaign traits where if you take the campaign trait that give you a stripped gunsmithing ability, you also get a choice to take the favored class bonus of 1/2 of your favored class level added to damage (rounded down).

MrCharisma wrote:
I'm super interested to see what else comes up in this thread, but I' short for time now so I'l check back in later.

So am I. I have been organizing these ideas off and on all day.


Andostre wrote:
Coinspinner's Song wrote:
Yeah, there is a Pistol of the Infinite Sky that does that (Skull & Shackles drop I think). You can get the reload portion of that through a few feats pretty easily, but creating an actual +3 weapon enhancement that does it would be cool too. Does +3 sound about right price-wise?
Maybe? Weighing magic items has never been my strong point. The weapon effect I was thinking about is Shadowshooting, which is a +1 effect. Take away the uncertainty of shadow magic and remove the misfire chance or normal weapons, and I'd probably go with +2.

That sounds like a good compromise. I could work that in pretty easily.

Coinspinner's Song wrote:
Andostre wrote:
Does your galloping saddle provide the STR bonus to the mount or to the rider?

The mule back cords portion goes to the mount.

The 10 minute STR or DEX bonus goes to the rider as written (or should it be mount as well?)

I was thinking about all the movies when a rider hangs off his saddle while shooting at a full gallop.

I can see that. I just couldn't tell because I could see it going both ways. I think that the STR bonus would help the rider and/or the mount more in melee combat, which seems less like it would apply to your AP. Looking through the PRD, most of the magic saddles I just glanced at provide some sort of effect to both mount and rider, even if it's not the same effect.

I thought both makes the most sense. Plus there will be a few new species of horses for the campaign too, because you know, horses!

Andostre wrote:

Perhaps a rule for missed ranged attacks hitting someone else nearby? Like if you miss bad enough, you roll for how off target the shot lands a la the splash damage rules.

Coinspinner's Song wrote:
Perhaps this could be fixed by extending the penalty that already exists for firing into melee to include firing while mounted and involved in a chase? That way Precise Shot takes care of this without adding anything additionally?
It's probably more trouble than it's worth, but I'm just thinking of all of the scenes in a shootout where a guy is shot at, and the only reason he...

I'll play around with this idea some more, but I like the feel of the Feat taking care of it, considering it's built already similar to that.


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Set wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

Duel at High Noon!

Yes! There must be a showdown / climactic gunfight at some point, although, with a group of heroes, a showdown at the OK corral / save the town from the bandits aka Magnificent Seven might be a better fit.

That is for sure the best fit. Writing it is going to be pretty fun.

Set wrote:

Other tropes;

Fight in an abandoned mine, with cave-ins and natural hazards. It needs to be blown up at the end, with the winners just running clear in time as it explodes behind them!

I was thinking about a reverse dungeon crawl in an abandoned mine. Having somehow fallen it to it, or forced to take refuge in it. Perhaps even a small mine cart chase winding it's way deeper. Then having cave ins happening while they are trying to make it back out, having to make decisions on fighting monsters and looting treasure as they go.

Set wrote:

Fight in the saloon, possibly unarmed?

Chase-scene on horseback!

Absolutely yes to both of these!

Set wrote:
Something to do with the natives. (Perhaps some raids by the true enemy have been staged to look like they were committed by the natives, so that the locals waste time and energy fighting the wrong people, and even inviting the assistance of the *real* bad guys in 'protecting' them from these 'savages.' The party has to uncover the truth and convince the locals to restore their previous 'live and let live,' or even trading partners, relationship with the natives and rally together against the sinister forces looking to take over.)

I'm thinking this should be the overall arc of the campaign. Eventually restoring the natives right to their land and making a stand against the colonists pushing West. Or is this too heavy handed? I think a lot of people would like to go toe to toe with the government when its all said and done. Especially finding out that lots of towns and people like working alongside the Natives, and it's only an organization of corrupt land-owners pushing their way west at any cost.


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Andostre wrote:

Items

There's a unique magic weapon or a magic weapon property that allows a gun to shoot shadow-magic bullets that reform on their own (so that you don't need to reload). Maybe something more setting appropriate? It is a trope that some six-shooters in the older movies never seem to run out of bullets.

Yeah, there is a Pistol of the Infinite Sky that does that (Skull & Shackles drop I think). You can get the reload portion of that through a few feats pretty easily, but creating an actual +3 weapon enhancement that does it would be cool too. Does +3 sound about right price-wise?

Andostre wrote:
Does your galloping saddle provide the STR bonus to the mount or to the rider?

The mule back cords portion goes to the mount.

The 10 minute STR or DEX bonus goes to the rider as written (or should it be mount as well?)

I was thinking about all the movies when a rider hangs off his saddle while shooting at a full gallop.

Andostre wrote:

Tropes

A high noon showdown with wands!

Nice! I'll try to figure out how to get that to happen

Andostre wrote:

You'll need some sort of Native American analog. Don't choose a humanoid race that's evil, such as orcs or hobgoblins, but they should be more exotic than elves. Just having them be "different" humans could work, but it might be more fun to hit up the race builder. Lizardfolk could work, but they're swamp-themed. Suli are Janni-influenced, which are from the desert...

If you want historical accuracy, maybe analogs for Chinese and Mexicans.

One of the main villains could be the head of a mining company, forcibly taking over land for their own purposes.

That was exactly what I was going for. A new Playable Race that ends up being forced off their land, and the overall arc is to take the fight back to those that are forcing them off their land. I think I'll make them a sub race of Suli. That makes the most sense and still makes them feel Pathfinderish.

Andostre wrote:

Rule Additions

Chases - check out these chase rules.

That's super cool. I was playing around with putting initiative into movement as well, and this would allow for that. Very neat Idea. Gonna have to look at this very closely.

Andostre wrote:
Perhaps a rule for missed ranged attacks hitting someone else nearby? Like if you miss bad enough, you roll for how off target the shot lands a la the splash damage rules.

Perhaps this could be fixed by extending the penalty that already exists for firing into melee to include firing while mounted and involved in a chase? That way Precise Shot takes care of this without adding anything additionally?

Andostre wrote:
Kudos to MrCharisma for his duel rules. I especially like the Secret Number being a bonus to initiative but a penalty to attack.

Yes. Totally going with this idea. Gonna playtest it soon.


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MrCharisma wrote:

Ok here's some thoughts on some rules:

- Firearms are martial weapons (you probably already have this).

I have been toying around with a few ideas actually.

1) Firearms are martial weapons.

2) Bonus Feat at level 1 where you can choose (Amateur Gunslinger, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), or Gunsmithing)

3) Campaign traits where each one provides either a stripped down version of the feat above, or the full feat itself.

What I am trying to do is open up class choices, while still making the gunslinger attractive. I figured with this campaign gunslingers would be like Jedi's are to a Star Wars rpg - Every one wants to take them. So if i part out the abilities of the gunslinger into other classes as a bonus, it makes them more attractive knowing they can get a bit of gunslinger flavor early, and then always multi-class later on if needed, or just slowly add it through feat progression. Or. at the very minimum, still be proficient with the firearms they come across.

So as an example;

Trait 1

Choose one type of one-handed firearm. You are proficient with that firearm. You also gain the gunsmith feat with these changes. All costs of firearms other than your chosen firearm are crafted for 2/3 of the price instead of 1/2, and non-alchemical ammunition is crafted at 20% instead of 10% of the market price.

Trait 2

Choose one type of two-handed firearm. You are proficient with that firearm. You also gain the gunsmith feat with these changes. All costs of firearms other than your chosen firearm are crafted for 2/3 of the price instead of 1/2, and non-alchemical ammunition is crafted at 20% instead of 10% of the market price.

Would this work, or should it be more inclusive?

MrCharisma wrote:
Firearms add 1/2 your character level (rounding down) to the damage dealt. This lets them stay relevant past the early levels without needing everyone tk go gunslinger. DEX to Damage is still somethjng specific to the gunslinger and DEX based characters still have the edge since it helps their To-Hit roll.

I was thinking about this problem specifically, how do you make them attractive for others. I think by just giving them the ability to use them (through campaign traits) it might be enough because they are still a touch attack. Do you think there needs to be any other added bonus?

MrCharisma wrote:

DUELS:

Two characters stand waiting a trigger (The clock bell/someone yells "draw"/etc), this is readying an action. Since everyone is readying an action that means they've all acted, so no surprise round and nobody is flat-footed.

After the trigger there will be a "Special Round" where each character gets only a standard action, but can draw their pistol as a free action (characters with the Quick-Draw feat get a +4 bonus on their Initiative)

The duelists each secretly write down a number (called from now on their "Secret Number"). The Secret Number is added to their initiative score. Both players then reveal their numbers and roll for initiative.

The first round for both combatants is only a standard action (because they readied an action). During this "Special Round" they take a penalty to their attack roll equal to their Secret Number. Also during this "Special Round" if their attack roll succeeds they automatically score a critical threat, and automatically confirm (meaning in most cases they deal ×4 damage).

Once both duelists have had their "Special Round" play returns to normal, and (assuming they're both still alive) a regular shoot-out ensues.

If a character wishes to fire before the trigger (darstardly cheater!) they can make a bluff check opposed by their opponent's sense motive. A character with the Quick Draw feat receives a +4 to their bluff check to deceive their opponent, or to their sense motive check to avoid being deceived. However if they cheat they do not get the automatic critical threat or critical confirmation.

If the cheater succeeds on their...

This is pretty neat. I'm going to use this on a quick one shot and see how it plays out. I'll keep you posted. [Obviously inspired by "The Quick and the Dead"]


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MrCharisma wrote:
Bank robbery!

Most definitely including that!

MrCharisma wrote:
Magnificent Seven style last stand!

I was thinking of having books 3 and 4 be more dark (all hope is lost kind of feeing) If that works, then this will fit into one of those books for sure.

MrCharisma wrote:
Prison Break!

Thinking about having that in the first part of the adventure (Book 1)

MrCharisma wrote:
Duel at High Noon!

Lot's of this if possible. If I can get a good way to pull it off. I like your idea below.

MrCharisma wrote:
Western society was set in an era of civilizing the wild places, so Abadar would probably play a big part (and probably Ersatil as his antithesis). You could have the magic train be a new thing, and the railroad company is improving the lives of the people in major cities, but it's doing it at the cost of those on the frontier.

That's really interesting. Is there any part of Golarion that could be used as the setting?

MrCharisma wrote:
Some items: Silver spurs, Quickdraw holster (maybe 1/day or something), Named bullet (that one might actually exist already), Gambler's gloves.

Named bullet is a deed Gunslinger's get already.

I love gambler's gloves (They would also have to be invisible because no one would play with you if you're wearing gloves)

Quickdraw holster is cool, maybe combined with the abilities of a scabbard of many things?

Silver spurs for a bonus to handle animal, and intimidate?

MrCharisma wrote:
Speaking of gambling, you could have a game of chance with a very special deck (of many things).

I love the idea of creating a new deck of many things that fits into this campaign. Perhaps held and used by a higher end boss.


Lanathar wrote:

I would like to try and do something with the Influence rules in my game but I am having a very difficult time working out how you are supposed to balance them out

I have read the rules as well as several PFS scenarios and the parts from War for The Crown the contain Influence (at least in the first two books)

I still have no idea how to design them from scratch. There seems to be a range of influence DCs that vary from low to high depending on how common the skill is (diplomacy being hardest and some obscure skills sometimes being as much as 10 lower)

They are also broken up by events that often add further outcomes which is an extra layer of confusion but probably necessary unless your players really like role play and skill challenges

To outline my main areas of confusion:

- how it is decided and balanced how many successful influence checks are required

- keyed off of this : how many influence attempts are allowed as part of the occasion (ball, gala, dinner etc)

Has anyone designed any of these or does anyone have any tips?
Alternatively are there any particularly responsive paizo writers who are involved in creating any of these who might be good to try and reach out to in a direct message (even as a long shot?)

Thanks

Look at Skull & Shackles.

Skull & Shackles Minor Spoiler:
The first part of the campaign is all about influencing NPC's, done really well I might say.


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I'm starting to write an old west flavored adventure path. Just like the actual adventure paths, I am looking for ideas of cool NPCs, side quests, overall quests, settings (this may be the hardest), cool items (5-6 per book), etc.

So far I have written a few ideas down, and started working on some magic items, but I thought I would throw this out there to see if there are any particular tropes that you all would like to see.

This is obviously going to be taking place in the future(ish) of Golarion, firearm friendly of course, and I have been trying to come up with some NPCs that really have merged black powder and magic together.

Ideas I have so far - (I am horrible at naming these things by the way)

Items

The Smoking Gun (A Pistol that smokes more than the average firearm adding to concealment each time it is fired, providing the wielder does not move.

Wagon of Holding (A Wagon that you can use to set up a traveling blacksmith, Alchemist lab, etc.)

Galloping Saddle (A military saddle that provides its normal bonus as well as a +4 to strength or dex for 10 minutes (non-consecutive) a day. It also provides the benefit of mule back cords.

Masquerading Masks - (Act as disguise self as well as charm person)

Tropes

I have an idea for a magical train build for a Great Train Robbery moment.

The Big Card Game (used to get status among the higher ups)

A Ghost Town (Because, of course!)

Inventions (Nothing concrete, but definitely wanting to include something here)

A Bounty Hunter chasing the Party (Complete with updated Wanted posters as they go town to town)

Rule Additions

Different types of horses (Possibly a new feat or campaign trait to add a watered down animal companion to your character)

Mounted Chasing Combat (Looking for simplifying it, and getting it to be somewhat doable)

Wanted Level, similar to Infamy (Not necessarily because you're evil. Think corrupt governments)

Before I fill up a page, I'll throw it out to you guys.

Thoughts?


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I converted it to an Adobe Illustrator editable PDF file.

Hope this works.

Editable Letter of Marque.


Meirril wrote:

If you are trying to make money through crafting in Pathfinder...well. Honestly you shouldn't. That breaks the game.

But if you want to anyways, see if the GM is ok with you selling a keg of black powder. Costs you 100gp to make, sells for 500gp (1/2 value), for a profit of 400gp per day.

Not quite as broken is using the downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign to earn Magic Resources. Generally you can make 1 or 2 per day, and you spend 50gp to get 100gp worth of 'stuff' to make magic with. Basically you double your money slowly this way. Not as efficient as selling black powder but it is something anyone can do and a bit more fair.

The Howard Stark comment was more about being the one that spreads guns through Golarion. :)

I was just going to ask if I could do that every week or so. Considering I won't be needing any weapon drops, I figure it shouldn't be that tough. I am 100% ok with staying at the wealth per level (I did all the math based on that anyway). Of course I wouldn't say no to better armor, a belt of DEX, or any headband that comes my way.


Wonderstell wrote:

Re: Spark of Creation

When crafting items, the amount of GP used in raw materials is called "Cost".

When buying items, the amount of GP they are worth is called "Price".

So since Spark of Creation lowers the *Cost*, you'd first divide the *Price* by two and then multiply the result by 0.95.

Coinspinner's Song wrote:
Spark of Creation trait or Hedge Magician trait. I love more flavorful traits, but it's hard to pass up one that can save thousands of gold over time.

Assuming you speed up the crafting time by increasing the DC by 5, you'd save 50 GP per day spent crafting.

If we compare this to a Profession check of 30, which would you give you little over 2 GP per day, we see the true worth of this trait.

It allows you to earn a considerate amount of money by crafting, which you can make use of during downtime.

Ahhh. That above portion makes the most sense. Ok, so 5% off the cost. Still not bad.

And yes, this is definitely one of the traits that leads to a Howard Stark build in Pathfinder.


OmniMage wrote:

You want to avoid mundane crafting at all costs. Its good at low levels when you can possibly complete a project in week (or a few), but at later levels its slow. You need 20 squared to get a productivity rating of 40 gp a week. 32 squared gets you 100 gp per week. Crafting magic items or crafting firearms with the gunsmithing feat gets you 1000 gp *per day* (not per week). Mundane crafting is ridiculously slow. You will make far more money by adventuring than you will save by mundane crafting.

Spark of Creation? Sure, why not. It will reduce costs, not time to craft.

A question of my own. Do you need to make firearm masterwork in order to enchant them? Its kinda not mentioned. Plus its 300 gp to make any other weapon masterwork, and firearms are often priced in the range of 1000s of gp, so it feels kinda redundant. If you have to make it masterwork, do you have to do so with mundane crafting or can you use the gunsmithing feat?

The Gunsmithing Feat allows you to make a normal firearm masterwork in 1 day for 300 gp. Another very cool ability built into the Feat/Class.

And in a weird way, Spark of Creation can save you time, once it starts saving you thousands of gold. (Of course only a day or two, but heck, it's something).


Wonderstell wrote:

url=https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42c8f?How-does-Master-Craftsman-works#2]He re's a recent explanation of magic weapon crafting I wrote up.[/url] It should be helpful.

Main takeaway are that you can circumvent any requirement by increasing the DC by 5 (except having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat), so you don't have to wait until level fifteen to craft a +5 magic weapon. As long as your craft check is high enough.
And you don't need to supply the spells if you increase the check by 5.

In your example of Barry the Dwarf. The first time he goes to craft it, isn't he also needing to add 5 to the DC check because he is not a level 10 caster? But if he had 10 skill ranks in his Craft (weapons) skill, he would't have to add an extra 5 to the check because the Feat Master Craftsman lets him substitute the skill ranks he has in craft (Weapons) for his caster level, giving him a 10, so he then meets that requirement?


Lelomenia wrote:
You can just add one ability, I’m not sure what the DC is, I would say the DC is for the full item, not just the specific upgrade. Which is harsh when each upgrade has prereqs you are missing, sorry. There’s also disagreement about where the 5% comes in; you are showing crafting costing 45% of market (100-50-5), he has it at 47.5% (50%*95%). I have not seen clarifications on either of those, which is why I didn’t respond to those questions specifically.

But if I gather those prereqs over time through wands or scrolls, I can chip away at the high DC's correct? Starting with the cheapest ones of course. I still would like to see where this is in writing, so I can reference it later. Thanks again.

Also the Spark of Creation text reads

Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Craft checks, and the cost of creating magic items is reduced by 5%.

The way I read it (And of course I could be wrong) is: the cost is reduced by 5%. So normally the cost is 50% of the item. this reduces it 5%, to 45% of the item. It seems like Pathfinder wouldn't add something that requires crazy math, when they can just bump down your cost by 5%. Also the word "the" instead of "your" seems to imply that the overall cost goes down 5% rather than "your" cost which would be post 50% discount. Any thoughts?


Meirril wrote:
1) You don't want to use craft(firearms) to make a gun. The DC for an exotic weapon is 18. The DC for the Mastercrafted portion is 20. The amount of progress you make each week on a success is your roll x the DC in silver. Once you've covered the entire cost of the item, you're finished. We're talking about 40-80ish gp per week in progress. For that 4,300gp revolver you described it would take you 5-10 months to finish it. Using Gunsmithing you'd be done in 5 days with no rolls.

Makes perfect sense. Thank you.

Meirril wrote:
2) If you have an assistant that can provide a prerequisite, or you have items that you can use to take place of the spell being cast that meets the prerequisite. But you have to provide 1 copy of the spell per day of enchanting. So if you use a wand to take care of a prerequisite for an item you are making that takes 3 days, that means 3 charges get used from the wand. Or you hire an assistant for 3 days. Or you use 3 scrolls.

Got it. I included that above, but also raised the DC, now I see I only have to do one or the other. Using a wand is of course use magic device, but to read a scroll would it be Spellcraft, or could you also use - use magic device to read a scroll?

Meirril wrote:
Some items require the spell prerequisite to be met. Fortunately Arms and Armor aren't one of them. You can skip any prerequisite for +5 to the DC (other than the feat Craft Arms and Armor). Make sure you calculate what the required caster level is for the weapon you are making/upgrading. If it exceeds your ranks in craft(firearm) you'll need to +5DC to skip that prerequisite too.

So far, I stayed at them minimum level needed to craft at each stage to avoid that plus 5 DC, but now I know that I can actually do it earlier, if I can pass the check with a take 10, thank you.

Meirril wrote:
3) Additional cost. Instead of using a scroll or wand, it is cheaper to hire a NPC caster. But its even cheaper to raise the DC 5 and skip it.

Got it.

Meirril wrote:
4) Figure out the total bonus of the weapon (enhancement + special abilities, no more than +5 in each). The DC is either (bonus x 3) or (the highest DC of the Special abilites you are trying to add), which ever one is greater.

Didn't know the first part of that. Now it makes perfect sense. (Why can't they just write the darn book this way?)

Meirril wrote:
If you are adding an ability to an existing magic weapon, it is the same DC as making a new weapon. But you only need to pay the difference: (total creation cost) - (existing weapons creation cost). Also the time to enchant is based on the difference in Market Price between the two weapons.

Ok, now here is where I am confused. The way I read it, the CL would be the same as if you were making it from scratch, but the DC of the check would be just for the new part you are adding. I take it that is not correct? If you craft a +1 flaming longsword and you want to bump it to a +2 flaming longsword down the line, you still need to cast fireball on it during the time you are working on it? That doesn't seem right. It seems like you already "paid the cost" through an already existing plus 5 to the DC, or through costs for the spells. Is there any reference to this that I am missing in any of the books?

Meirril wrote:
5) Not sure how you got a 5% discount in making magic...

Spark of Creation trait or Hedge Magician trait. I love more flavorful traits, but it's hard to pass up one that can save thousands of gold over time.


Lelomenia wrote:

(1) master craftsman only allows you to meet prereqs for the craft magic arms and armor feat, which you would need to enchant a firearm. A key thing to understand here is that there are three completely different crafting systems involved in your first post: conventional crafting, which is what hero labs calculates as 1/3 market price, master craftsman, which allows a magic crafting feat that operates on a 1/2 market price basis, and the gunsmithing feat, which also operates on a 1/2 market price basis. You don’t want to use conventional crafting, because it takes forever. So ignore the 1/3 stuff.

(2) just add 5 to your check for each missing prereq.

(3) see 2.

Awesome. I am quickly learning that the Gunsmithing Feat is super important.

Do I have to add 5 to the check for a missing requirement I already added to the weapon prior?

For example let's say I have a +1 Tickling, Sneeze-inducing Feather

I craft the feather the first time, it costs 4000 gp normal, so I pay 2000 gp based on a Feat that overrides the 1/3 cost and time requirement, to 1/2 cost at 1000 gp a day.

Then I masterwork it for 300 gp, based on the same Feat.

Then I add Tickling to it, I add 5 to the DC because I don't have the spell requirement to add Tickling.

Later on I add Sneeze-inducing and add 5 to the check because I don't have the requirement to add sneeze-inducing. Do I also add another 5 to the check for not having the requirement for Tickling? Even though that is part of the gun now, and I already "paid it's cost" by increasing the DC the first time?


Wonderstell wrote:


2-5)

Here's a recent explanation of magic weapon crafting I wrote up. It should be helpful.

Main takeaway are that you can circumvent any requirement by increasing the DC by 5 (except having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat), so you don't have to wait until level fifteen to craft a +5 magic weapon. As long as your craft check is high enough.
And you don't need to supply the spells if you increase the check by 5.

Ok. Cool. I figured that was the case with using Craft (Firearm), so the Gunsmithing Feat is super cool. And thanks for the guide. That's Awesome!

Wonderstell wrote:


Also, I'm not sure how you've reached your estimated crafting costs, but I don't think they are correct. Here's a breakdown on special abilities and enhancement bonus.

For example, the [+1 Reliable Distance Lucky Seeking Revolver] would have a total Weapon Bonus of +5. Which means the market price is 50,000 gp, and your crafting cost is 25,000 gp. Spark of Creation would lower that to 23750 gp.

This was by just adding one enhancement at a time as I gained the level to be able to do so. So the above example, I am starting from an already crafted +1 Reliable, Distance, Lucky Revolver, and I'm just adding seeking. Which I believe I can do, correct?


Ok. Numerous questions after a lot of reading and digging. I'm going to number them for easiness. But here is some background. I posted recently about a gunslinger build and trying to figure out the Feat tree for what I want to do and I got a lot of great responses. Thank you all!

I got the build done for the most part and so I started thinking about crafting my own guns, evolving and upgrading them as I go. So I figured a plan to get Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor as feats at just about the right time in game, but I am trying to figure out both costs in gold, required materials, and DC's of checks.

Also, I have Hero Lab and that is confusing me even more when it comes to crafting.

I also added the Spark of Creation trait to get the +1 and the 5% discount. So here we go.

1) In Hero Lab I added a Masterwork Revolver and then clicked the craft button and it went from 4300gp to 1433gp, 3sp, and 3cp. I am assuming that it is just defaulting to the 1/3 price for crafting items, instead of the 1/2 price that the Gunslinger trait gives you. But that got me thinking can I use the Master Craftsman Feat with Craft (Firearms) to make a revolver at 1/3 of the price instead of 1/2 the price for the Gunsmith Feat? And if so, does that then make it a DC check instead of being able to do it with no DC check? And if it does require a DC check, what would it be?

Moving on to magical crafting...

2) If I don't have the required spell as a caster (which I won't because I'm not taking a caster class), I see three options (I think). 1) Add 5 to the DC of the check. 2) Buy the number of spells and cast them myself (which I can do with a use magical device skill check or spell craft skill check correct?), Or 3) I need to do both - Add 5 to the check and buy the number of spells needed.

3) If I do need to have the spells, is that part of the cost of the crafting, or is that in addition to the crafting costs? I'm assuming the latter but I wanted to make sure.

4) How do I calculate the DC of the check? I listed a few examples and want to see if my math is correct. I am planning on adding one enhancement at a time at higher levels.

5) How do I calculate the cost? I got the 5% discount on the base crafting cost, and I'm assuming I don't get the 5% off of the Spell as that is an in game purchase between me and an NPC.

[+1 Distance Revolver #1 (Level 6)] (actually crafting it at level 7, but level 6 is the minimum to create it correct? Adding both +1 & Distance
DC = Base 5 + Distance 6 + No Spell 5 = 16 (I calculated it with both the cost of the spell and the increased 5 to DC, to play it safe for now)
3600g + (2 x 180gp) = 3960gp (with the 5% discount)

[+1 Training, Distance Revolver #2 (Level 9)] with the Feat Improved Critical which I won't have. (This is to add training to the previous one)
DC = Base 5 + Training 3 + No Feat 5 + No Spell 5 = 18
4500gp + (3 x 30gp) = 4590 gp

[+1 Reliable Distance Lucky Seeking Revolver #1 (Level 15)] Adding just Seeking to it.
DC = Base 5 + Seeking 12 + No Spell 5 = 22
8100gp + (7 x 720gp) = 13,140 gp

I think that's it for now. But I would love to see if I am on the right track.


Errant Inlad wrote:

As far as crafting goes, either a caster will need to provide the spell components or you'll need to increase the DC. So yes, you've got the right idea. However, by picking up the Magical Talent trait you can gain the ability to cast a single cantrip, such as mending. This would allow you to create a Reliable pistol without increasing the DC by 5 for the missing prerequisite. I'm uncertain if it's worth a trait, but it's an option.

I added Hedge magician as a trait, that way crafting the guns at later levels saves thousands of gold. Especially if I end up creating two sets - one for feats, and another for abilities after I learn those feats later on.


I also want to say thank you to everyone on here who takes time out of their day to help people like me with these builds.


Errant Inlad wrote:
Coinspinner's Song wrote:
Meirril wrote:
...but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire...
....I could be missing something, but why do I need to have two feats worth of Point Blank Shot...

I suspect this is a typo, and that Meirril intended to say Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. You can't take Point Blank Shot more than once.

As far as crafting goes, either a caster will need to provide the spell components or you'll need to increase the DC. So yes, you've got the right idea. However, by picking up the Magical Talent trait you can gain the ability to cast a single cantrip, such as mending. This would allow you to create a Reliable pistol without increasing the DC by 5 for the missing prerequisite. I'm uncertain if it's worth a trait, but it's an option.

The Training enchantment has some fuzzy rules though. I'm not sure if you can increase the DC to ignore the special combat feat prerequisite or not.

Getting all those feats is going to be a challenge, no matter what you do. I was messing around with a progression earlier, but forgot to include crafting feats. My first draft was built with the assumption of taking Trench Fighter, and goes as so:
** spoiler omitted **

I set it up to to try and front load as many feats in as I could. Hopefully it will be a helpful framework for working in your crafting.

It did help a lot, thank you. I also found a couple work arounds, to get a few more earlier as well.

As far as the training enhancement goes, I'm still trying to figure out how to work that. Either I take the feat, craft the pistol, then retrain the feat, or see if there is an increase to the DC if I have all the prereqs of the feat but not the feat itself. In the below plan, I am assuming it's the latter, but if it's the former, the progression stays the same after I retrain.

I worked this progression out today, you might get a kick out of it :)
Feats are numbered

Human
(Level 1) Human Gunslinger 1
Mysterious Stranger / Maverick

(1) Exotic Weapon Profeciency (Firearms)
(2) Rapid Reload (Pistol)
(3) Point Blank Shot

(Level 2) Monk 1
Far Strike Monk

(4) Quick Draw
(5) Precise Shot

(Level 3) Fighter 1
Trench Fighter / Martial Master

(6) Rapid Shot
(7) Weapon Focus (Pistol)

(Level 4) Fighter 2

(8) Two Weapon Fighting (Craft a second pistol for 500 gp in a day with Gunsmithing)

(Level 5) Fighter 3 (This is where you get back Dex to Damage)

(9) Master Craftsman

(Level 6) Fighter 4

(10) Weapon Specialization (Pistol)

(Level 7) Gunslinger 2

(11) Craft Magical Arms & Armor
(12) [+1 Training Pistol 1] Improved Critical
(13) [+1 Training Pistol 1] Combat Reflexes

(Level 8) Gunslinger 3

(13) Dazzling Display
(14) [+1 Training Pistol 2] Gun Twirling
(15) [+1 Training Pistol 2] Deadly Aim

(Level 9) Gunslinger 4

(16) Snap Shot
(17) Point Blank Master
(Add Reliable to both guns)

(Level 10) Fighter 5

(18) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

(Level 11) Gunslinger 5

(19) Improved Snap Shot

(Level 12) Fighter 6

(20) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
(21) (Add Seeking to both guns) (Counts as Improved Precise Shot)

Somewhere down the line I was going to also add Distance to both. Or possibly sell what I have at around this level when I could pick up the rest of the feats on the guns, and start crafting new ones with: +1 or +2 and Lucky, Reliable, Seeking, & Distance. Possibly doing them one at a time when I can add each feat.


Meirril wrote:

I'd go pure gunslinger to 5th level. Firearms are great because you can hit touch AC in the first range increment. But in return for that they have a bunch of fiddly rules about ammo, ammo is expensive, and a secret nerf: its harder to add damage to a firearm than a bow. Bows have a way to add strength, and have a lot more feats that are bow only.

That dex bonus to damage you get a 5th level is a major boost. There isn't any feat that will add as much damage as this will without introducing a negative to hit that off sets the bonus.

I'm losing the Dex to Damage from Mysterious Stranger, but I have a way to pick it back up, even earlier, as a level 3 Fighter - Trench Fighter, If I go Gunslinger 1, then Fighter 3, which also gets my Feats going pretty quick as well. But I might also dip 1 level in Monk before that for two free Feats (Explained below. Although I hate losing the BAB progression, but... trade offs.)

Meirril wrote:

And Precise Shot is amazing. Without it you take a -4 to hit if the opponent is in melee combat. While not every opponent you have will be in melee combat, this is going to be regular enough that you had better have this feat.

And while Improved Precise Shot is a high on a lot of ranged builds, personally I favor the enchantment Seeking over it. Seeking not only does what the feat provides, it is also defeats Invisibility and other spells that cause miss chance (like Mirror Image). All of that for a +1.

That is amazing. It didn't even register on my radar when I was looking through weapon enhancements.

Meirril wrote:
The Training enchantment on the other hand...I don't really like it. Most feats have an efficiency of around 0 to +2 from the scale I introduced above. The effects that add 1d6 of damage are more efficient at 3.5 while a +1 bonus is +3 on that same efficiency scale (just like point blank shot).

I don't mind it because of the fact that it can be the first or second enhancement on the weapon (thus coming as early as 5th/6th level, and because it would be one at the end of a feat chain, and I could either retrain it with time and gold, or for free through the fighter class ability. I'm specifically thinking about Deadly Aim and Improved Critical (which can be added a bit later once the Two Weapon Fighting starts kicking in.

Meirril wrote:
But if you end up with a whole lot of cash and you still feel squeezed for feats by all means get training. Just remember you don't have these feats unless you are holding the guns in your hand. So don't put Quickdraw on them for instance.

Yeah, I won't do anything like that, :)


Meirril wrote:

I'm going to disagree a little on the feat order. While you eventually want Deadly Aim at low levels your opponents will tend to be low AC and relatively high dex. Rapid Reload is kind of a must, but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire before you pick up Deadly Aim.

Something you should figure out before 5th level is how your GM feels about Advanced Firearms. If you can use the advanced version of your preferred weapon you need to know before you select which firearm gets your dex to damage. Remember you can make it yourself for half cost.

As for other classes to mix with, stat wise your a bit limited. Sorcerer is a possibility, but it doesn't have enough synergy with gunslinger to make it really attractive. Oracle works much better, you could have a 'revelation' and take up being an old west style preacher. You could also take up being a 'singing cowboy' and invest in Bard levels. Or you could just start investing in Fighter. Trench Fighter is a gun-specific Fighter archetype but honestly you don't need it and the armor training is probably more beneficial. More importantly 4 levels of fighter opens up Point Blank Mastery.

Swashbuckler would also give you access to PBMastery but I'm not convinced that is a good idea. Though Panache and Grit combine for a single pool so it might not be a bad idea.

A more difficult build would be to dip into Magus: eldritch archer. This would give you ranged spell strike and your focus could be a firearm (or 2). This would definitely up your damage potential. Its too bad you can't go Eldritch Scion as well, but the 2 archetypes alter the same abilities in ways that aren't really compatible. This means sooner or later you'll want to get an item to raise your int.

I could be missing something, but why do I need to have two feats worth of Point Blank Shot. Is it just to counter the negatives to hit with the other feats? In other words, can it be avoided if there are other bonuses instead, such as a fighters weapon training, or the +1 from an enchanted weapon? I'm trying to find a way to get through these feats as quick as possible. Including enchanting the first pair of guns with training to add two feats that way, and possibly Martial Master for a move action feat right before battle begins. I'm thinking about starting with one level of Gunslinger (Maverick/Mysterious Stranger), then go Fighter (Martial Master) 2 before going back to Gunslinger 5, then Fighter 8.

By 8th level I should have 10 Feats (Including Weapon Proficiency, and Dazzling Display), plus enough wealth to craft 2 Firearms with Training on each for 2 other feats.

That's 12 feats by level 8.Any other way to get that chain going any earlier would help.


Errant Inlad wrote:

A pit fall in building a dual-wielding mysterious stranger is the archetypes removal of Quick Clear. When making multiple shots a round with cartridges, you're going to have a lot of misfires. Possibly more than the Strangers Fortune feature can mitigate. This creates a conflict between character flavor/concept and character mechanics. If you feel that Maverick gives you enough of the flavor you want, then Pistolero is a good substitute for Mysterious Stranger. If Mysterious Stranger is integral to your character concept, I might reconsider the dual wield route. I'm certain someone on the boards can show you the statistics for firearm miss fires when dual wielding, and that's worth looking up when making this choice.

If you stick with the dual wielding route, you might consider an Alchmemist dip for Vestigial Limb. Maverick/Guntwirling/Dual-wielding route is badass, but extremely resource intensive. Two levels of alchemist gets you dual wielding, plus Mutagen and a competence bonus to Craft Alchemy. Flavor wise, he'd be a third-rate alchemist who up charges fools for low level extracts and peddles useless snake oils and placebo's.

As far as fighter levels go, there's a couple archetypes worth considering. Cad adds character flavor and Weapon Master get's early access Weapon Training. Trench Fighter get's Dex to firearm damage rolls, which can build on a musket wielding Mysterious Stranger.

I'm brainstorming some other concepts, so I'll be back with more. I hope this was helpful, and that you find a way to make your concept come to life :)

I really love the Charisma based Deeds and Grit that I get from Mysterious Stranger. And the two Archetypes flavor together really well. I am very nervous about the misfire's, and really wish that I could keep Quick Clear. The Gunlover trait, if I can get it allowed, should take care of that a bit though. Are there any other ways to get something like Quick Clear, lessen the misfire to zero or find a work around? I know mending would make it 10 minutes instead of 1 hour, but even something that could make it a full round action or less would be optimal. I suppose with quick draw at later levels I could just have a few revolvers or pistols tucked away as guns misfire. Maybe not as Magical, but still plenty flavorful. Thank you so much for all the ideas. I really like the Alchemist Idea, especially the flavor of him just being a giant con man in every way possible,

You seem like you know your stuff really well. Can you chime in on my idea of crafting my own magical Firearms, like I outlined above. Does that work that way?


Meirril wrote:
Errant Inlad wrote:
Meirril wrote:

I'm going to disagree a little on the feat order. While you eventually want Deadly Aim at low levels your opponents will tend to be low AC and relatively high dex. Rapid Reload is kind of a must, but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire before you pick up Deadly Aim.

Something you should figure out before 5th level is how your GM feels about Advanced Firearms. If you can use the advanced version of your preferred weapon you need to know before you select which firearm gets your dex to damage. Remember you can make it yourself for half cost.
A

At low levels, he won't have the funds for a massive number of alchemical cartridges. Without free action reloads, Rapid Shot is useless. Deadly Aim is a good damage boost that doesn't depend on cartridge consumption. Granted Point Blank Shot is only 1 less damage a round, with an accuracy boost at the only range that matters. Perhaps Rapid Reload/Point Blank Shot would be more optimal at first level.

Rapid Reload is something every gunslinger needs at low levels because using standard actions to reload sucks. If you don't feel like making cartridges you can save a few silver and not raise the misfire chance to reload as a move action. Personally I think its worth the extra cost to be able to fire and move.

If OP follows the order I suggested to buy feats in he won't have Rapid Fire before 4th level. I think he can afford to make a bit more ammo by then. Though if its really a concern he can take Deadly Aim before taking Rapid Fire the next level.

If the OP is really worried about money for ammo, see if the GM is ok with you selling a keg of powder once between adventures. That is 400gp in profit.

Yeah, Rapid Reload is a for sure. I'm thinking about Steadfast Personality, and then when will save catches up, retraining that to a combat feat another PC has. One in the same feat progression as what I am going for (Point Blank Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc.) As long as there is one other ranged character, I'm sure I can find an overlapping feat that I can use to retrain. If not, I won't take it and just gut out the will saves for a few levels (Hey, Hero Points have to be used for something).

It's a house run campaign, so I think it would be ok to sell some black powder every so often to pay for alchemical rounds, as long as I don't break the wealth by level, I should be ok.

I found a cool feat progression on another thread Here Trying to figure out the class levels (Where to dip into Fighter and for how long) to accomplish basically this idea:

Two Pistols (or revolvers if I can retrain enough weapon specific feats). Crafted by me (slowly adding bonuses as I can). Firing as much damage and as many times as I can a round (I usually don't look to end game mechanics, but just can't help myself with this class. It just seems so fun to look ahead)

In no particular order, I see this as the Feat list;

Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Snap Shot
Point Blank Master
Deadly Aim
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
Gun Twirling

And for Crafting as I go, these Feats:

(Do I need to still have a spell caster put spells on the weapons, or can I read them from a scroll spell and/or increase the DC of the check?)

Master Craftsman - Craft (Firearms)
Craft Magical Arms & Armor

Eventually ending up with:

(2) +1 - Lucky, Reliable, Distance, Pistols or Revolvers

The overall build is looking like:

Gunslinger 12/Fighter 8, with two more Feats to add (Armor Related?)

Swapping out my original Dex and Charisma from before, and Possibly taking the Gunlover Trait (It's 3rd party, so I might not be able to).

I would love to hear if this seems like a decent plan, and in what order I should class dip and add feats. This will be my first character that is feat heavy with an end game in mind (Lot's of feat trees).


juantamad wrote:
This feat can help with your Will saves. It doesn't cover everything, but comes close. I'd replace it with Extra Grit.

Thank you! I think that's perfect for what I'm looking for to get out of the first few levels.


Dajur wrote:
Multiclassing Mysterious Stranger with the Paladin Divine Hunter archetype works pretty well. It may not fit with the character you are building, but you might be able to make it work.

Not a bad idea. I was thinking of dipping into fighter to quicken up the feat progression, but this guy is no Paladin. Might have to figure out anther way to go.


Errant Inlad wrote:

Have you thought about swapping your charisma and dexterity scores? You are a front line ranged character without Nimble, you're gonna need the AC. Without quick clear, you likely won't be burning through grit too quickly. I actually would forget extra grit as well. Firearms are feat intensive. You shoot on touch AC, so any accuracy you can trade for damage is a good deal. A good basic feat progression would be as so: Lvl 1 Deadly Aim, Human Feat Rapid Reload, 3rd lvl Point Blank Shot, 4th lvl Precise Shot, 5th level Rapid Shot.

After 5th level, the Gunslinger has few features left to gain. Consider multi classing. The Gun Chemist, the Fermenter or the Mixologist Alchemist could both be lovely additions to your concept.

The Mysterious Strangers Lucky class feature basically requires you to take Fates Favored as a trait. Maybe considered replacing Never Stop Shooting or Iron Liver? Could go all in and switch to a Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoo. Take Shamans Apprentice too for free Endurance, and you open up easy access to Diehard.

That's all I've got, my friend. Your concept sounds fantastic. Have fun with your character :)

The swap of DEX and CHA is a good idea, thanks! I guess I kept thinking I would need the Grit more than the AC.

I'm imagining that he's hampered to needing to drink before a fight to basically reduce parts of his drawback (Liquid Courage). That's why I love Iron Liver and Fortified Drinker. I could put off the above Feat progression by 2 levels, by removing extra Grit and taking Additional Traits, that way I could still add Fate's Favored, and something else useful, any ideas? (We can't have more than 1 trait from each type)

Doing the above two would now take my Grit pool down to just 3 however. Of course, if I add armor expert for the trait and remove Never Stop Shooting, I can keep my DEX and CHA where they are, and then be back up to 4 for the Grit pool, plus be able to take better armor.


Looking for advice on items and feats past the first level. I really like the idea of a drinking, smoking, lying, cheating, cowardly, but also charming, and secretly brave gunslinger. (Think Mel Gibson's Maverick Character). I don't care about min/maxing, just having fun and role playing the heck out of him. However, that being said, I also don't want to gimp him and have him ending up useless after a certain point.

I looked online but haven't seen this combo talked about, so I thought I would reach out to you all.

Specifically is there any way to increase his will saves until his luck bonus starts kicking in?

This is what I'm starting with:

Marcus "Dusty" Riggs

Human Mysterious Stranger/Maverick Gunslinger 1

Rolled Stats
STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 11
CHA: 18 (Human Racial Bonus Applied)

Feats:
Extra Grit
Rapid Reload: Pistol

Traits:
Fortified Drinker
Iron Liver
Never Stop Shooting

Drawback:
Cowardly

Favored Class Bonus (1) - Skill Point

Starting Gear:

(4) Alchemical cartridge (paper) 24gp (50% Reduction for crafting before campaign begins)
(12) Firearm Bullet 1gp 2sp (90% Reduction for crafting before campaign begins)
(1) Pistol Free
(1) Terbutje, steel 20gp
(1) Leather Armor 10gp
(1) Animal-repellant sack 1gp
(1) Bachelor Snuff 1gp
(3) Belt pouches 3gp
(1) Canteen 2gp
(1) Cards 1sp
(1) Coffee Pot 3gp
(2) Coffee, Mwangi 6cp
(1) Dice 1sp
(1) Bag of Fake Coins (25) 5gp
(1) Filter Scarf 5gp
(1) Flint & Steel 1gp
(1) Gunsmith’s Kit 15gp
(1) Hat 2sp
(1) Hip Flask 1gp
(1) Inside pocket 4gp
(1) Insulated flask 2sp
(2) Jungle Coffee 6cp
(2) Leechwort 6gp
(1) Loaded Dice 10gp
(1) Marked Cards 1gp
(1) Oldlaw Whiskey (per bottle) 20gp
(5) Paper 2gp
(1) Pickpocket’s Outfit Free
(1) Poncho 5sp
(1) Powder Horn 3gp
(1) Reagent Black Powder 10gp
(1) Snuffbox Tin 5gp
(1) Tindertwig 1gp
(1) Tobacco 1gp
(1) Wolfsbane 5sp
(1) Wrist Sheath 1gp


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*Khan* wrote:

Wow, looks like handwriting or did you print it?

If you have files with the map and letter, could you share it?

Sure. I used adobe illustrator. The lettering is printed, but I threw a couple layers on the text to make it look like an old printing press. The map was done all free hand. I kind of wish I would have printed it, but I don't have a large format printer.

I am not sure how to attach files to this message. I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate through forums.


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One year into the campaign and my group finished book 2, "Raiders of the Fever Sea." Now they are off to Port Peril to get their Letter of Marque.

When I finished book 1 I made them a map so they could take to the Shackles in search of treasure and glory. They have loved it, and I keep sneaking it back every few session and aging it and burning it to make it worn as the game progresses.

Here is the Map

Shackles Map

So now I went and made a Letter of Marque to begin book 3. I hope my players appreciate it as much as I do. It was super fun to make and if anyone wants to know the steps I;ll list them out for you.

Letter of Marque

Of course it started as this:

Letter of Marque1
Letter of Marque2
Letter of Marque3


Ok, so first some basics.

1) I'm a new DM, and back at playing tabletops from a 20 year break.

2) I thought it would be fun to play through an already made adventure (which it has been).

3) I am already changing some things in the adventure, mainly minor things, and my players are all mostly new to tabletop games as well, but we're all having a blast.

4) We have had some near TPK's and I have had to fudge some rolls, frankly even with just the encounters in the book. I had a previous GM (remember; 20 years ago) that would give us anything we wanted, and it ended up not being very fun. So I followed the book for all the magical items (if they found them) and then for the sandbox portion I used what the encounters suggested and used a random item generator.

So far, it seems to have left them a bit underpowered and while they're still having fun and the encounters are challenging, our battles are taking forever because no one wants to make a wrong move with their actions. It also might be because I nailed them with the "This is a skill heavy adventure" pretty hard (which it is), and so the roleplaying portion has been awesome to run, and they are doing quite well on that, but it may have sacrificed more combat readiness than I previously thought.

So... I decided to make some awesome items/weapons they can each have, that should take them through the whole adventure and become family heirlooms.

Let me know if I am going way overboard. They were fun to make, thematic, and I put them on adventures gathering materials in order for them to be gifts from a "Hermit" they met at a small fishing village.

(I also have no idea how to price these things, so I told them they are invaluable and cannot be sold or traded)

Now on to the MEAT

Character 1 - Human Hunter 3/Fighter 2

Quest

A piece of wood from the Strongest Tree (She knows that the strongest trees are those that survive on the islands near the Eye of Abendego)

7 Feathers from the following birds:

The Wisest, (Obviously an Owl)
The Most Intelligent, (Can be multiple ones, but they are traveling with a talking parrot, so..)
The Most Loyal, (There is a Witch in the group with a Raven animal companion, very loyal)
The Toughest Bird (Can be any, waiting to see what she chooses)
A Reborn Bird (A Pheonix, obviously)
The Prettiest (Peacock, toucan, or parrot)
The Oldest (They have found "The Lost Messenger" side quest and I have dated the bird to 100 years old just for fun, she can unscrew one of the feathers if she tries)

and a barb from the greatest evil she faced (currently a Manticore spike that she's harvested from their narrow victory over it)

When she presents the feathers I'm going to have her make two piles. One with 4 feathers, one with 2 feathers, and one to throw away.

The Item

Hunter's Barette

Gust of Wind Spell 1x a day (From the piece of wood)

And then 4 of these enhancements added to it:

+2 Wisdom Enhancement Bonus (From the wisest bird)
Nerfed stats from the Treasure Hunter's Goggles (from the most intelligent bird)
Barkskin Spell 1x a day (from the toughest bird)
Darting Retrieval Feat (from the Most loyal bird)
1 auto-use of reincarnate spell (from the reborn bird)
+2 to all Charisma based skill checks (from the prettiest bird)
Protective Spirit spell 1x a day (from the oldest bird)

One will be burned up, and then her smaller pile of two feathers, I am going to make an
amulet for her Gorilla Animal Companion

Character 2 - Sylph Investigator 5

Quest

Deep Water Platinum (This stuff is in the adventure at certain points)
A Masterwork Rapier
A small alive Octopus
Wind from the Eye of Abendego
And then 50 of his inspiration points. These must be given to the rapier every morning (a little meta-gaming but he gets it. Basically he has to choose how many inspiration points to ditch every morning, until he gets to 50)

The Item

"CLICK"

a +1 Called, Inspired, Countering, Keen Rapier with the Legend Lore spell once per week, that glows gold (C.L.I.C.K. = a synonym for insight, intuitiveness)

We're big Star Wars nerds, so it definitely has a lightsaber feel.

Character 3 - Half Elf Swashbuckler 4/Oracle 1

Quest

Deep Water Platinum
Sand from 20 islands
7 drops of a drink bought for you after recounting your tales (Basically 7 successful Infamy checks, as it is assumed afterwords that someone would buy you a drink)

The Item

The Swanky Scabbard

+2 Charisma Enhancement Bonus
The stats from the Scabbard of many blades plus
Tap Inner Beauty Spell 1x a day
Disguise Self Spell 1 x a day

Character 3 - Undine Witch 5 (The Captain)

Quest

50 pages of Fine Noble Parchment (25 from Tidewater Rock, 25 she has to buy)
The Blood of a dozen evils
The stories of a dozen Captains (basically meeting 12 non hostile captains and engaging with them)

The Item

Captain Grimm's Log

+2 Intelligence Enhancement Bonus
Detect Expertise Feat
The stats of Book of Extended Summoning
and this part of the stats of the Corset of Dire Witchcraft "If the wearer is a witch, each day when she communes with her familiar to prepare spells, she may enhance one hex she knows, increasing its caster level by +2 for 24 hours. This enhancement ends if the corset is removed or if she uses it to enhance a different hex."

In order for the Book to work, she has to create nursery rhythms that she speaks while she casts Summoning spells, uses her Detect Expertise Feat, and the Hex she uses to enhance.

The first one was given to her:

Monster, monster, under my bed
come out to play and make them dead

It also contains a key filled with blood ink to open it, than when worn around the neck, acts as an amulet of natural protection (+2 to AC)

Anyway, there you go,

Let me know if I am completely overpowering them. or destroying the game, or if they are fun and you have any suggestions for some changes/fixes. Any feedback would be good.

The quest has taken them from level 4 to almost level 6 and they are about 3/4 of the way through it. They are trying to figure out a way to get to the Eye of Abendego safely, and back to the "Hermit" (17th level Oracle)

Thanks for reading


Here is my idea for a couple cards to help move through a location quietly.

They give you a great bonus when you come across a monster, but do take up a spot in your hand for non monster explorations.

Boots of Lightest Step

Card Type: Item

Card Traits: Accessory, Magic, Finesse, Stealth

Check to Acquire: Stealth, Survival 6 or Intelligence 8

Power:

You may display this card before you explore on your turn. If you
encounter a monster on this exploration, discard this card and draw two
cards from your deck; if you did not, return this card to your hand.

Discard this card to succeed at a Stealth check for any character at your
location.

Recharge this card to examine the top card of your location deck; if it is
a boon, you may immediately encounter it.

Silence

Card Type: Spell

Card Traits: Magic, Arcane, Finesse, Stealth

Check to Acquire: Intelligence, Arcane 7

Power:

You may display this card before you explore on your turn. If you
encounter a monster on this exploration, discard this card and draw two
cards from your deck; if you did not, return this card to your hand.

Discard this card to succeed at a Stealth check for any character at your
location.

After playing this card, if you do not have the Arcane skill, banish it;
otherwise, you may succeed at a Arcane 9 check to recharge this card
instead of discarding it.

(Not sure what Adventure Deck Level these would be, I was thinking 1, but let me know if they are too good for that)

Here are the card images

http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2277648.jpg