Friend wants to play a mouse, any rules for that?


Homebrew and House Rules


So he wants to play a mouse, not a rat.
Looking at the relative sizes of rats compared to mice (roughly 1/2 size) and that rats are tiny, I am thinking mice would be diminutive. The quick and dirty version of what I came up with is he plays a mouse whose statistics are derived from the Rat with the young template applied to it for an adult mouse.
The mouse would then be hit with the Awaken spell, then the statistics modified beyond that by taking PC levels.
The mouse would then apply the bonuses for having class levels

Rat
Size Tiny
HD 1d8
Str 2
Dex 15
Con 11
Int 2
Wis 13
Cha 2

Mouse (Young rat)
Size Fine
HD 1d8
Str 1
Dex 19
Con 7
Int 2
Wis 13
Cha 2

Awoken Mouse (Young rat)
Size Fine
HD 3d8
Str 1
Dex 19
Con 7
Int 3 - 18 (average 10 (3.5*3) or 12 (4*3))
Wis 13
Cha 3 - 5

Awoken Mouse Wizard (Young rat)
NPCs or animals with class levels gain the following bonuses to their ability scores, their choice where they are applied: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2
Size Fine (+3 ac, +3 to hit)
HD 3d8 + 1d6
Str 1 (+0)
Dex 21 (+2)
Con 11 (+4)
Int 8 - 23 (+4 (average 10+1(4HD) (3.5*3) or 12+1(4HD) (4*3)))
Wis 11 (-2)
Cha 5 - 7 (+2)

The alternative is to allow him to play a Nirvana petitioner.
Use 20 point buy (we are using point buy) to decide base attributes.
Change attributes with: -10 str, +6 dex, -2 con.
Apply petitioner template to the classless PC at this point.
+2 to Wisdom because of Nirvana petitioner.
Apply class as normal.

What do you guys think?


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dont know if this is helpful or not, but you do know that there is a game for that already right?

maybe you guy can concider playing that later?

if you abseloutly have to fit the square peg in the round hole then I guess making a custom race: Awoken Mouse with -10 str, +6 dex, -2 con and fine sized plus some racial bonuses to I dounno ... skittering? gnawing at hemp and cardboard? skulking and being disease-ridden? -as you can tell I'm not an encyclepedia on Mice :)

just wondering; what are the other players making? and how will a talking rodent with the resilience of a wet paper towel stay alive in a world of orcs with axes etc?
is he going to sit in their backpacks and only come out when it's safe?
is he going to be the scout?
because unless I'm missing something he's almost a spectator/helpful npc/familiar by this point and if the rest of the party are smiting/raging/sneak attacking their way through the story he might feel a bit useless ...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Mouse Guard rocks. I am currently running a Mouse Guard game.

Epic.


Alternatively. Have the player own and train a mouse?

Alternatively, alternatively. A druid might be an option, but only later. I suspect a mouse is still tiny. So by lvl6, you can turn into one. And still be somewhat useful. You should also have natural spell by then.

If you really want a diminutive mouse, lvl8 is where its at.

As a side note, by lvl6: giant octopus...


Let him have a monkey familiar that can carry him around and do stuff that requier hands. And you are set to go.


LuxuriantOak wrote:
I dont know if this is helpful or not, but you do know that there is a game for that already right?
I shall buy and play this later, but we are in the middle of Kingmaker so that is where he is jumping in.
LuxuriantOak wrote:

Just wondering; what are the other players making? and how will a talking rodent with the resilience of a wet paper towel stay alive in a world of orcs with axes etc?

is he going to sit in their backpacks and only come out when it's safe?
is he going to be the scout?
because unless I'm missing something he's almost a spectator/helpful npc/familiar by this point and if the rest of the party are smiting/raging/sneak attacking their way through the story he might feel a bit useless...

He decided to go with Wizard, and looking at mice bodies compared to dragons they are remarkably similar in the upper body department, and by that logic if dragons can manage somatic components then there isn't anything preventing mice from doing it either.

He is going to by riding a raven, and squeakily casting spells of doom at the tall folk. Don't worry, he isn't making a rogue, although that would be a good character to make into one considering the + 12 to stealth from size.

The main wizard of the group is going to be this mouse. He will lead them into the squeaky future.


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Doing a little peabody/sherman action?

Clever mouse wizard and it's perky human familiar?


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

...He decided to go with Wizard, and looking at mice bodies compared to dragons they are remarkably similar in the upper body department, and by that logic if dragons can manage somatic components then there isn't anything preventing mice from doing it either.

He is going to by riding a raven, and squeakily casting spells of doom at the tall folk. Don't worry, he isn't making a rogue, although that would be a good character to make into one considering the + 12 to stealth from size.

Alting that kind of Logic is illogical. But there is no problem in you as a GM deciding that he can do somatic components.

if this is at level 1 i dont think a flying Mount is a good plan even if it is a familiar. He will out scout every one already.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:


He is going to by riding a raven, and squeakily casting spells of doom at the tall folk.The main wizard of the group is going to be this mouse. He will lead them into the squeaky future.

For some reason the image of this made me smile. :)

I think you guys have it nailed down, have fun!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Woah.

I would allow this, but not full caster.

Why?

Experience.

Diminutive full casters(especially Wizard), wreck games.


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I'd say have the player stat out a Human.

And then have, as their backstory, a Cursed Item (so it's permanently stuck to them) that has Beast Shape III (Diminutive creature) and Anthropomorphic Animal permanently on that's attached to them.

Stats: +6 Dex (Size), -4 Str (Size)
Abilities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, +1 Natural Armor
Natural Attacks: Bite
Speed: 15ft/15ft Climb/15ft Swim
Space/Reach: 1ft.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Woah.

I would allow this, but not full caster.

Why?

Experience.

Diminutive full casters(especially Wizard), wreck games.

We are not particularly concerned with balance at this point, and the heroes are supposed to be winning either way, though we will adapt as things evolve. Thanks for the heads-up on potential issues later down the line.
chbgraphicarts wrote:

I'd say have the player stat out a Human.

And then have, as their backstory, a Cursed Item (so it's permanently stuck to them) that has Beast Shape III (Diminutive creature) and Anthropomorphic Animal permanently on that's attached to them.

Stats: +6 Dex (Size), -4 Str (Size)
Abilities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, +1 Natural Armor
Natural Attacks: Bite
Speed: 15ft/15ft Climb/15ft Swim
Space/Reach: 1ft.

Actually, this is spot on.


Pinky and the brain


Beware the dreaded pocket wizard.

Seriously.


I would probably use tiny size or a slightly bigger base creature - you said you aren't worried too much about game balance but in my experience this is just a bit more manageable.

You can throw together a tiny mammal using the race builder pretty quick, something like

Tiny (4RP)
Slow Speed (-1)
Stats: -4str, +2Dex, +2Int(or whatever) (Weakness (-1)) - Becomes -6 Str, +4Dex, +2Int
Bite 1d3 (2)

Etc.

Also:

Diminutive anthropomorphic mouse Swashbuckler (Mouser).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How is this wizard going to manage a spellbook? Or any other implement for that matter? Or is the world suddenly going to spring up mouse sized wizard paraphenalia?


Someone else can carry the spellbook and flip pages for him. Or, play a sorcerer instead. I would worry more about somatic components though. Mice can grasp things but not to the level that humans can. Of course, a GM ccould simply decide to not worry about it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Someone else can carry the spellbook and flip pages for him. Or, play a sorcerer instead. I would worry more about somatic components though. Mice can grasp things but not to the level that humans can. Of course, a GM ccould simply decide to not worry about it.

Your big worry is foci. Eschew materials does not eliminate that type of component.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Probably has a fairies spell book, since they are the right size and also have a history of using magic. If not, the mouse probably is of an intelligent, sentient varient, so they probably made the spell book and outfit. As a rule of wonderland no more, clothes for a tiny, or small character cost the same as for a bigger inderviduals, using less material but needing better craftsmanship. The same rule can be applied here. I would suggest that he at least bring a grappling hook to get up to higher places, and will need to use it a lot as everything is a high place for him.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
How is this wizard going to manage a spellbook? Or any other implement for that matter? Or is the world suddenly going to spring up mouse sized wizard paraphenalia?

To be fair, Wizards have alot of Int that could be spent on the relevant craft feats. I don't see anything illegal about "Craft (spellbook)" or "Craft (clothing)." Though you are correct, Foci is a problem... but if the city is established to have some kind of wizard's tower or academy I'm sure the proper people could craft the proper items. Either that or have raven hold the spell component pouch and do tricky acrobatics every time to clumsily draw one out. hmmm. Good points you have raised sir.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As for foci, go for small focusing implements made from incredibly small amounts of the relevent materials, but have them cost the same, since they need to be of relatively good quality for their size.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
LuxuriantOak wrote:
dont know if this is helpful or not, but you do know that there is a game for that already right?

Of course, I was thinking of an entirely different RPG!

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Haladir wrote:
LuxuriantOak wrote:
dont know if this is helpful or not, but you do know that there is a game for that already right?
Of course, I was thinking of an entirely different RPG!

Not here in the states. There are no cats in America.


http://paizo.com/search?q=Redwall&forum=v5748dmtz1gel
With this search I found mostly stuff about badgers.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Haladir wrote:
LuxuriantOak wrote:
dont know if this is helpful or not, but you do know that there is a game for that already right?
Of course, I was thinking of an entirely different RPG!
Not here in the states. There are no cats in America.

What's really funny is that Tiger and Fievel took levels in Gunslinger in the second movie.

Dark Archive

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It doesn't seem anyone mentioned that of The Noble Wild 3rd party Pathfinder book here.
 
Noble Rodent
This also allows for humanoid familiars and druid/ranger humanoid companions, so given how a Mouse has +4 Cha (but a required starting 1 Str) if you were to go with a Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer your friend could have a 'human familiar' that can carry him around as the mouse shoots off spells or interacts with others. The pair could also perhaps pull of a Disguise check to have it appear that the mouse is the familiar and the human is the sorcerer, thus deceiving others in who the real threat is.
--------------------

Noble Mouse
Size: Diminutive
Base Speed: 15 feet, Climb 15 feet.
Ability Score Modifiers: 1 Strength (Noble mice always begin play with a Strength of 1 - this can be increased through level advancement as usual), +4 Dexterity, +4 Charisma.
Natural Weapons: bite (1hp)
Vestigial Hands: Unlike most animals, noble rodents have vestigial hands that can be used to grasp tools. While their “natural” cousins still have not grasped the higher concepts involved in using tools, a noble rodent can use tools and weapons with only a -4 awkwardness penalty (provided they are of an appropriate size).
Senses: Low-light vision (Ex), scent (Ex)
Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
Skills: +8 racial bonus on Stealth checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks. A noble rodent can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A noble rodent uses its Dexterity bonus instead of Strength for Climb checks.
Family: Mammal
Noble Animal Type: Noble mice have the noble animal type except where superseded by other species traits and features.
Automatic Languages: High Fauna and Rodent
Bonus Languages: Bat, Camel, Canine, Common, Crocodilian, Elephant, Equine, Feline, Herdspeak, Hyena, Lizard, Monitor, Raptor, Serpent, Simian, Songbird, Ursine, and Woodland.
Social Group: None


You could have a party with a Badgerbarian, a squirrel person druid, and a midge pixie rogue. They could be brought in to eliminate the Germaline spies from the castle.

Dark Archive

Goth Guru wrote:
You could have a party with a Badgerbarian, a squirrel person druid, and a midge pixie rogue. They could be brought in to eliminate the Germaline spies from the castle.

Is this a reference to something?


Yeah, Redwall. Also, I suggested to someone awhile ago that they could just make a pixie small and call it a Midge Pixie.


You could also check out Everyman Gaming's Microsized-Adventures...

Dark Archive

Goth Guru wrote:
Yeah, Redwall. Also, I suggested to someone awhile ago that they could just make a pixie small and call it a Midge Pixie.

Ah yes, I should have caught that reference since I was an avid reader of the Redwall series in junier high and high school... I have no idea if there has even been new books.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Ideas in this Thread are quite inspiring. I'm going to look up some of these products so i can work on my Florafaunar setting. I will post the details on the home-brew section soon, so edits can be made where appropriate.


You're...

You're a nicer GM than me, and I am trying to learn to remember that's a good thing.

There are a ton of advantages to being a fine sized caster - you should therefore balance it out, not by forcing disadvantages, but by making sure not to ignore those that naturally occur.

I will say I second the problems with the spellbook - spells must take up a number of average sized book pages based upon their level. A smaller book with smaller writing won't work, because if it did, medium creatures would just write smaller to save pages in their books, too.

Until they gain access to extradimensional space, carrying ANYTHING is going to be an insane exercise in logistics. Even then it would have to be custom made, because a haversack is probably too heavy. I am too lazy to look up and calculate the load chart for a fine quadraped with Str 1, but I'm guessing it's in the fractions of a pound for light loads. So much as accessing a spell component becomes a chore.

Also, do remember, it is a quadraped. Awaken gives you mental scores, it doesn't make you bipedal. Mice can manipulate tools with their digits and a human's intelligence, but they can't do so and move at the same time, much less use something four sizes too large for them.

I think if you start from first level, and this character has to magikarp his way to usefulness, it's not only fair, but a pretty fun character concept. By mid-level, he'll gyrados so hard the rest of the party will wonder when he turned to mighty mouse.

Dark Archive

@thegreenteagamer
Your concerns is actually why I suggested a Noble Mouse, Arcane Blooded Sorcerer (Though a Druid/Ranger could also work). With the Noble Wild book allowing for humanoid familiars and humanoid companions it allows a player to create a animal character, that is naturally intelligent and able to speak common, that can also have a humanoid ally that can carry their stuff.

This system also allows for some other alternatives that Core Pathfinder does not for animal characters, such as blood magic instead of worrying about material components and deeds that buffer for other disadvantages. Also racial levels that take consideration for more powerful races such as bears and elephant.


I just started playing an Awakened Arctic Fox to replace an 8th level character that died. I ended up going with Urban Druid to solve most problems with carrying things around, and a Hand of the Mage for the little time spent in his natural form. The original concept was for him to have a humanoid as an animal companion to take care of supplies and such, but we quickly realized I was making an npc for a one-time encounter that way ("Oh, it's a druid and it's animal companion- wait a minute, what do you mean you're the animal companion and the fox is the druid?!") After that the character was boring. I don't know why I kept the arctic fox after that, but I did. And there you go.

I'd say your work on stats is great, as well as the many suggestions. The rest of my party enjoys the weirdness of my character and have not figured out what exactly he is, which is part of the fun, but they know he's not a standard race. Have fun with the mouse!


@JonathanWilder - I wouldn't suggest the change to the player, though. A mouse wizard is awesome but with flaws that are challenging and fun to overcome - the sorcerer you suggested just feels good with no drawbacks, which are half the fun of earning your way to awesomeness.

Edit - I dunno, I always liked Raistlin more than Elminster. Raistlin was amazing but flawed, Elminster was a glorified Mary Sue.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thegreenteagamer wrote:

@JonathanWilder - I wouldn't suggest the change to the player, though. A mouse wizard is awesome but with flaws that are challenging and fun to overcome - the sorcerer you suggested just feels good with no drawbacks, which are half the fun of earning your way to awesomeness.

Edit - I dunno, I always liked Raistlin more than Elminster. Raistlin was amazing but flawed, Elminster was a glorified Mary Sue.

Remember, Elminster was created to be nothing more than a cop to keep Greenwood's PC's in line. Raistlin is a novel character. It's not a fair comparison. Raistlin willing gave up his humanity and his soul for power, only to learn his folly when it was almost too late. I'm not sure he's someone you'd want to emulate.

Dark Archive

thegreenteagamer wrote:

@JonathanWilder - I wouldn't suggest the change to the player, though. A mouse wizard is awesome but with flaws that are challenging and fun to overcome - the sorcerer you suggested just feels good with no drawbacks, which are half the fun of earning your way to awesomeness.

Edit - I dunno, I always liked Raistlin more than Elminster. Raistlin was amazing but flawed, Elminster was a glorified Mary Sue.

There would be challenges, as you cannot ignore the Strength of 1, and I am sure the DM would want to the humanoid familiar. From what I see from Noble Wild it doesn't invalidate the challenges or necessarily distract from the roleplaying possibilities.

For example, how serious would other talk a talking mouse, calling the human with them their familiar and saying they can use magic? Many I feel would laugh for even mock, more what if the mouse character get separated from their familiar/companion? It would limit their travelling ability unless they have a spell ready such as Fly or some other movement related spell.

Also I admit Sorcerer was a personal choice, not having to worry about a spellbook very much being a benefit of the innate challenges of a wizard. Sure their familiar choice carry the spellbook for them but having to spend the time writing in it and the consideration of how large the writing has to be... it would be something some players may not want to deal with.

Really a Arcane Blooded Sorcerer is the easiest choice but not automatically the best choice. I was merely considering the fact that a combat mouse would be next to impossibly, especially with the Strength of 1 and Diminutive size thus nearly requiring a spellcasting race of some sort.

The Noble Wild book merely helps make certain details of Pathfinder mechanics easier to work with or more importantly allow more ideas to be possible, not negates the challenges that would need to be faced.


I don't understand your problem with small spellbooks. I'm thinking of adding an awakened rat's spellbook to The Cleaves. The big people would need a lense of minute seeing to read it. The disturbing concept that there is an entire vermin civilization including book binders is kind of the point.

Since familiars can be mounts, they could have a normal rat mount. If they always stand upright, that becomes their normal waking state. You can make changes to the awakening spell, because you are the GM. If not, you can talk to your GM.

I'm going to work on an awakening ritual because it makes sense story wise.


LazarX wrote:


Remember, Elminster was created to be nothing more than a cop to keep Greenwood's PC's in line. Raistlin is a novel character. It's not a fair comparison. Raistlin willing gave up his humanity and his soul for power, only to learn his folly when it was almost too late. I'm not sure he's someone you'd want to emulate.

Elminster had several god awful books written about him, also. Greenwood can design awesome worlds and monsters, but his writing leaves so much to be desired that I can't even come up with a snarky metaphor for how bad it was. Elminster was boring. He always was the best at everything. He could fight, sneak, cast, pray, you name it, and he never had a weakness or a woman capable of saying no. He had the character depth of a sloth.

I don't design characters that I personally want to be - if I did I never would play evil characters and rarely neutral, but some of my best character memories are from those groups. A flawed character is one you remember - it's why more people remember Greek mythology than Gilgamesh or Beowulf, because who cares about the godmode guy who plows through every challenge without difficulty or even moral ambiguity? The Olympians at least had mental flaws that brought them down to a humanist level and made you believe that even though they're not real, IF they were, their actions made sense. And I'm not just a fan of evil characters - Pratchett (may he rest in peace, the recently departed genius) had Vimes, for example, a cynical ex drunk trying to remain the kind of person he knows he should be in a world that is so against so much that is good.

My point is flaws, for all their downfall, make for a more memorable character when you overcome them instead of avoiding having them in the first place.


These are all excellent ideas!
Thank you everyone!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JonathonWilder wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:

@JonathanWilder - I wouldn't suggest the change to the player, though. A mouse wizard is awesome but with flaws that are challenging and fun to overcome - the sorcerer you suggested just feels good with no drawbacks, which are half the fun of earning your way to awesomeness.

Edit - I dunno, I always liked Raistlin more than Elminster. Raistlin was amazing but flawed, Elminster was a glorified Mary Sue.

There would be challenges, as you cannot ignore the Strength of 1, and I am sure the DM would want to the humanoid familiar. From what I see from Noble Wild it doesn't invalidate the challenges or necessarily distract from the roleplaying possibilities.

For example, how serious would other talk a talking mouse, calling the human with them their familiar and saying they can use magic? Many I feel would laugh for even mock, more what if the mouse character get separated from their familiar/companion? It would limit their travelling ability unless they have a spell ready such as Fly or some other movement related spell.

Also I admit Sorcerer was a personal choice, not having to worry about a spellbook very much being a benefit of the innate challenges of a wizard. Sure their familiar choice carry the spellbook for them but having to spend the time writing in it and the consideration of how large the writing has to be... it would be something some players may not want to deal with.

Really a Arcane Blooded Sorcerer is the easiest choice but not automatically the best choice. I was merely considering the fact that a combat mouse would be next to impossibly, especially with the Strength of 1 and Diminutive size thus nearly requiring a spellcasting race of some sort.

The Noble Wild book merely helps make certain details of Pathfinder mechanics easier to work with or more importantly allow more ideas to be possible, not negates the challenges that would need to be faced.

I'm picturing the mouse writing in his spell book in the language of the squirrels from The Emperors' New Groove. "Squeak, Squeak, Squeakers, Squeakity Squeak Squeaking Squeak."


BBEG has a problem. He hates your Mouse Wizard.

So he scatters hundreds of mousetraps baited with yummy cheese around his lair.

But mousetraps are so tiny they do 0 damage and there are no rules for traps doing more damage to tiny creatures.

So, if you allow a mouse PC, you should also allow mouse-sized traps (as well as normal characters with stomping boots) to squish them!


A Tiny or Diminutive sized Ratfolk would fit the bill nicely. The Ratling monster/familiar could also serve as good background/fluff (Though much too powerful to be used as his race).

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