How can you make pathfinder APs more challenging?


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Alright, here's our issue. As a group, we are well-seasoned players, and while we dont min-max constantly, we do make sure our parties have a good balance of martial, sneaky and both types of magic when we play. The pathfinder APs, while fun and extremely well-written, seem to be way too easy. We use 20 point buy (even though the APs were designed for 15 points buy, it's nearly impossible for certain MAD classes to be made well at that point buy), and while we dont rape the encounters, it seems that a lot of the AP's encounters are easy. Carrion crown had some hard stuff in it, and we are currently in shattered star, and it's not that hard (except for one or two fights). we've also done second darkness, rise of the runelords, and a few others, and the standard is pretty common. It feels like we have to make purposefully bad characters, or have really bad party balance and composition to have it be challenging. We are not looking for something like age of worms where every moment is a struggle to survive, but to have challenging and dynamic encounters, without it feeling easy.

is there a simpler fix? Like encourage the party not to have a bunch of casters, to encourage the classic four person dynamic, that sort of thing? If this has been previously discussed, point me there please.


In my group my brother and I play with friends. My brother would DM while I played with the group. We found that having minimum amount of casters made the fights tougher. As you get higher casters just seem to breeze through the encounters no problem. The main problem I'm seeing with your group is that you are well-seasoned.

Now what I mean is, you guys know what works and what doesn't. You know how to play what classes and you do it well. I found that when you find the most broken ways to play a class you may tend to stick with it when you play it in the future. Also you may not see new monsters so if you see a monster you may have memorized the damage reduction on it or its Ac or SU so you know to stay away from it and let the ranged members take care of it. It doesn't get easier, with pre-made adventures they can be tough sometimes but they also can be easy as well. As it is one of the tougher adventure paths. You have to step out of your comfort zones and if there is classes that you haven't played you guys may want to have everyone play a class they have never played "still to this day only one memeber has played a bard and he changed his character as we got higher level and this was 3.5 not even pathfinder"

Now I don't know if you guys are using Ultimate magic or Ultimate combat, but I found that if you take those two away "feats/spells/archetypes" it may also add a bit more challenge to it as well as somethings are a bit too overpowered for adventure paths. Try also to do 15 point buy as well even if youre playing a paladin. Not having the good stats where u need em or having to sacrifice other stats for them may add in the scare you need during fights.


You may also want to look at word casting if youre not going to leave ultimate magic. It adds some cool aspects to magic while also changing some of the spells such as haste to be a little less powerful. It adds utility while also making each spell unique in its own way "I suggest spontaneous casters for word casting as the combinations for word casting can leave you really screwed with the wrong combination of effect words or even a target word such as having a really powerful word combo with the target word line while being in the back of the party in a 5 foot hallway" I know you may not get caught up in that situation but just an example of why spontaneous seems to be a bit better in my opinion.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Heads up.

Don't use the word "rape" in that context. That's an excellent way to get me to flag your post as inappropriate.

As for the rest of the concern... don't look at a 15 point buy as a disadvantage. If your players are as well-seasoned as you say, they could look at a 15 point buy as a challenge!


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Seriously, come on. You acknowledge the APs are DESIGNED FOR 15 point buy.
You say you are well-seasoned, high skill players, but then you exceed that and use 20 point buy...
because 15 is too hard for MAD classes. And then you complain that the game is not hard enough.

USE 15 POINT BUY!

Single classes might be able to do relatively well in some areas, but they will have serious weaknesses.
MAD classes will not have the serious weakness, but their direct capabilities will be further weakened.
Sounds about right to adjust the difficulty of the game... In fact, that's what the APs are designed for.
And yeah, I feel like APs are designed for the standard Wiz/Cleric/Fighter/Rogue party,
so you can mix up the specific classes but having something like that mix of casters/fighty/skill is probably a good idea.


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Good ideas from everybody. I just want to re-stress one thing: These APs were written so players with nothing but the core rulebook can play them, be challenged, and have fun. If you are adding things from other books like the APG, UM, UC, etc. without doing anything to the monsters, I would expect your challenge level to go down.

Make changes. If a module calls for a lvl 4 goblin fighter, make him a level 4 Gunslinger. Add some of the optimizations that people of these forums are good at. It's only balance to allow the monsters the same classes you allow the players. And, since the players stats are buffed, give the bad guy an extra henchman. Maybe a Time Oracle who can remove the fighter from time for two rounds while everybody concentrates on the "squishies". Fair is fair. Everybody gets more if you get more.


A good GM will assess his players and raise or lower the challenge of an encounter to meet the capabilities of his players.

Combat doesn't usually happen in an open field or an empty 10x10 room. When you have experienced players, you start using cover, terrain, and targeting the biggest damage dealers.

Intellegent monsters will set alarms, pickets, traps and they will work with the traps. You don't have to go full Tuckers Kobolds but it does help to read about them for ideas.


Are there only four players? The AP's are designed for four players with 15 point buy.


There are a few easy fixes to make things more challenging for larger groups/higher point builds/experienced players:

-Max out enemy hit points (this is an easy way to add a couple rounds to combat).

-Use the slow experience track.

-Add in extra mooks/minions (one or two carbon copies without adjusting the encounter level keeps players from advancing to quickly without making the encounter too tough).

Some fixes that require a little more work but can be far more rewarding are...

-Tone up encounters to character level (Give them a 20 point buy, or as an easier fix give them a +2 in one or two key stats and adjust everything else acordingly; I usually use the former for BBEGs and the latter for mooks).

-Insert more obstacles/traps in encounter areas.

-Randomly generate or pre-plan what magic items will be available in what towns/shops as the game progresses (controlling what the PCs have access to can slow down the strength of characters).

-ReTool the spell selection/feats/skills/magic items of BBEGs.

-Completely rewrite some BBEG's (I changed a goblin encounter in one AP from a warrior 2 to two Feral Gnasher Barbarians and my players enjoyed the challenge and had a blast).

-Give enemies an escape route, and use them as recurring characters later, leveled up of course.

I hope this helps some.


All the best sessions I've had recently in APs have been 4 players and low end points.


James Jacobs wrote:


As for the rest of the concern... don't look at a 15 point buy as a disadvantage. If your players are as well-seasoned as you say, they could look at a 15 point buy as a challenge!

Luckily caster/martial disparity is for those with an agenda.

Anyway, what I do is limit all the tier 2-1 classes to 15 point buy, tier 3-4 gets 20, and tier 5/6 get 25.

Full casters don't need any help, while rogues monks and fighters need all they can get


3d6 and keep all stats.. and rock it old school...


Erm use just the core book and do not power game your characters. Spend feats on skill training/skill focus and do not abuse your spells/power attacks.

Or roll 3d6 and be grateful if you get 12,12, and a 14-15. We have a Thief in a retroclone with 13 dex.

Project Manager

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Removed a post and some replies. Paizo staff have repeatedly made clear that we don't consider the use of the term "rape" as gaming slang for "to defeat" acceptable terminology on our boards. Please do not derail this thread with arguments over usage.


You don't need to artificially limit character creation to Core Only 15 PB to make the game harder. Just make the game harder.

Beef up encounters with a bit more HP/AC/To-Hit/Damage, increase number of enemies, tweak boss characters to be as optimized as your players (they usually have some flavor abilities they will never ever get the chance to use before your PCs murder them, might as well get rid of those and add more combat stuff so they'll last a bit longer), and use smarter tactics.

Suddenly, the fact that one of your PCs has a 14 instead of a 12 (about the largest difference between 15 and 20 PB) doesn't matter that much.


Remove the bonus HP and hardness magical items get. Add lots of sunder-happy enemies.

Remove the clause that says attended objects do not take damage from AOE attacks. Start using fireballs more often.

Edit: Now that I think of it, also a good way to avert the Christmas Tree effect. Or at least change it around to CMD boosters, rings of resist fire, fireproof bags of CLW wands, and the like.

Project Manager

Removed continued thread derailing. Please feel free to repost the content of the removed post without the inappropriate section.


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Quote:

Jessica Price

Removed continued thread derailing. Please feel free to repost the content of the removed post without the inappropriate section.

That's what I get for taking a break from writing a post for about thirty minutes. You guys should probably actually note this sort of thing on the Paizo rules since your messageboard rules say nothing about it. It would at least save you guys the trouble of removing posts and having to tell everyone that you only allow certain words to be used in certain ways so that they are offensive. A list of banned words might be a good way to go about doing it.

It'd probably make life easier for everyone since, again, the messageboard rules don't mention the banning on words.

============================================================
As for the APs, it's kind of hit or miss. Based on the APs that I've either GMed or played in they are grossly hit or miss most of the time. First session or two of Curse of the Crimson Throne is exceptionally easy in fact, but then most APs have encounters that are very hard to near impossible without heavy luck or hardcore playing (a certain event with some imps and pseudodragons from a certain AP springs to mind).

In general if you want to toughen up the APs I'd recommend actually playing by the core rules. That includes the 15 point buy (this is what my groups use and it's not impossible at all to play the core classes with 15 PB unless the class is already poor). The GMs using things like cover and stuff to their advantage or paying attention to rules like the modifiers to Perception for distance, the effects of lighting, and so forth also adds a huge breadth of depth and difficulty to the game that is often overlooked.

A lot of it depends on why you're having such an easy time of it. Sometimes GMs don't play to an NPC's strengths, other times it may be house rules, some times it may just be statistics. If your group really wants some extra challenge, having the GM increase the potency of some of the NPCs (via extra HD/class levels/templates/etc) throughout the game and having you play on the slow XP track to compensate for slightly higher CRs across the board could be an option.

Might the OP have some examples as to what exactly is happening?


I have found that 15 point-buy only really hurts the weak classes most of the caster classes are SAD and can get their key attribute to 18-20 with 15 points. For example as Summoner Synthesist with zero point buy will still be more effective than a monk with 15 points.


Wind Chime wrote:

I have found that 15 point-buy only really hurts the weak classes most of the caster classes are SAD and can get their key attribute to 18-20 with 15 points. For example as Summoner Synthesist with zero point buy will still be more effective than a monk with 15 points.

I'm just a fan of 15 PB, so I threw that out there. I mentioned it only hurts classes that are already poor. I'd like to give some more help if possible, but I think some more information would be needed so as to know where to begin.


Many of these ways of making challenges more challenging involve a lot of work for a GM. I recently tried making an encounter with some monsters tougher by giving them a bard, a barbarian and a sorcerer instead of just some fighters. It takes me a lot longer to prepare the encounter than it does for the PCs to destroy it.

Other techniques should work but are hard to apply mid-campaign. You can't wait until the PCs are level 13 and then apply slow level progression and a 15 point buy.

I like making enemies more intelligent and less predictable. If there are two encounters in nearby rooms, why not make the PCs fight both at once?
Giving the enemies a surprise round can also make a big difference, though if you do it too much without a good justification, it makes things look unfairly rigged.

Liberty's Edge

What is funny is I've read just as many threads saying the AP's are brutal.

My suggestion is you talk to your GM, as they may not realize you all want the difficulty raised and GM strategy makes a world of difference.

Dark Archive

"Play up". That's the PFS-enabled way that, if a table all agrees, an AP can become more difficult. But there's a fine line between "more difficult" and "a string of bad rolls kills you".


Rynjin wrote:

You don't need to artificially limit character creation to Core Only 15 PB to make the game harder. Just make the game harder.

Beef up encounters with a bit more HP/AC/To-Hit/Damage, increase number of enemies, tweak boss characters to be as optimized as your players (they usually have some flavor abilities they will never ever get the chance to use before your PCs murder them, might as well get rid of those and add more combat stuff so they'll last a bit longer), and use smarter tactics.

Suddenly, the fact that one of your PCs has a 14 instead of a 12 (about the largest difference between 15 and 20 PB) doesn't matter that much.

Sorry Rynjin I have to disagree here. The difference between a 15 PB and a higher one is not an "artificial" option. The AP's are INTENDED for a 15 PB. ANYTHING MORE is an "artificial" option.

Second, the AP's are MEANT to be an option for GM's who do not have a lot of free time for "upgrading" encounters to be able to run a full and comprehensive campaign. This is ONE of their PRIMARY reasons for existing at all. To suggest to one of these GM's who lack said extra time that "all" they have to do is swap feats on EVERY BBEG, research new and effective minions to add and all the while to remember to take notes on their players builds so that they can better challenge them is again suggesting that they spend more time than they may want in order to "upgrade" the AP to a challenge level that the AP was not DESIGNED to support. The core book states on page 15, column 2, paragraph six that, "The standard value for a character is 15 points." This is well established RAW. The AP's also state that they are INTENDED for 15 point buys.

Now, I am not saying that all of us HAVE TO or even SHOULD run our AP's like this. I use 20 PB sometimes in the AP's that I run, but before I advise another GM to "simply" allow a 20PB and "just" optimize every BBEG, research new minions to add, and remember to extensively track player builds just to maintain the challenge level I first determine if they are either a new or even a "casual" DM and ask how much time they have to work on the AP as it progresses.

Just a thought. Thanks for putting up with my rant guys.

Sincerely,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom


From the GM's side, I'm a big fan of the Advanced simple template.

If the party finds things too easy, and doesn't want to switch to a 15-point buy, just apply Advanced to many of the enemies. Cheat a little by not adjusting their CR (and thus XP reward). It's quick, easy, and it doesn't change the shape of the encounter or add complexity.


It's not hard on the GMs side. You can work on it for about 15 minutes a day and have the whole book done by the end of the week.

The key is to not feel like you're constrained by actually finding a template or raising the PB on enemies, just raise them.

For the really big bads look and see if you can find neat options for their class and swap some of their suckier ones out for them.

Project Manager

Removed some more derailing posts.

Sovereign Court

If things are too easy, esp with well made 20 pt buy PCs is to max monster hit points and give them the advanced simple template (quick version +2 to rolls, +2 hp/level, +2 to DCs, +4 ac/cmd). If that still doesn't work +50% minions in encounters. No solo boss fights, always give them help.

--Keep on Vrocking in the free world!


The ideal solution is to build encounters with your PC's capabilities in mind. If you are running an AP, though, you may not have the time to do that. Although I do not use APs, there have been occasions where I have thought "oh no, that encounter was too easy, since they found <X trick>. And <X trick> will also make the boss easier! Oh no!" Completely re-writing several encounters mid-session is obviously not an option. Fortunately, there are some simple fixes available.:

1. Duplicate monsters: I was planning to have 2 orc barbarians and one witch in the next room, but there are actually 3 orcs and a witch. Generally, this doesn't increase the complexity of planning or running the encounter, since you have all the stat blocks and tactics in front of you already. If I have more time, I would prefer add a different monster to make it more complex, but on the fly or with little prep time, duplicating monsters is a pretty solid strategy.
2. Advanced template: The Advanced simple template is very easy to apply, and it doesn't change the flavor, appearance, options, complexity, or possible strategies of a monster at all. It gives them slightly higher stats, but you can play them exactly the same way. Your players are experienced, so you can probably be fine applying the advanced template to every single monster in the game, and possibly twice to boss monsters. If you are concerned with xp progression (i.e., you don't want them to level faster than the AP assumes, this is important in an AP but not in an adventure you write yourself), don't adjust the CR of Advanced monsters.
3. Increase hp: This makes encounters longer without significantly increasing the resources per round used. Give monsters max hp on each hit-die. Or, more simply, just double its hp. Don't use this one if you think the fight will already be long.
4. Increase special abilities: Let's face it, special abilities and tactics are the two most interesting features of monsters. But those two, combined with terrain, are the hardest crunchy parts of an encounter to design. If, however, a monster in a given encounter already has a special ability or SLA, there's no reason you can exploit it to make your preparation easier. Does the monster get a few spell like abilities? Great, one of those can now be used as a swift action. So if before it could use Enervation or Cone of Cold, now it can use them both in the same round to debuff the party before attacking. Or decide a damaging SLA or ability is empowered or maximized (or both). The important thing here is that you do not obsess over following "official" monster stats. If you want to let your dragon use its breath weapon once every 1d3 rounds instead of the usual once every 1d4 rounds, don't worry about finding an obscure feat from a 3rd party source-book to "justify" the change, just do it. It will have a similar effect on the difficulty of the encounter, but will be a LOT easier for you both in preparation and in running it. As with the other suggestions here, if you don't want them to level up faster than the AP anticipates, don't adjust the xp awards--it will keep them from getting too powerful too fast and be easier for you than worrying about how much xp you should give for a dragon that can use breath weapon and a claw attack in the same round.
5. Traps: This can be a little trickier than my previous suggestions, but it can work. I love using traps, plain and simple. I like traps which constitute an entire encounter on their own and require a bunch of PCs to do different tasks to beat it (this are pretty darn hard to write well, though). In a pre-planned encounter, look at the map and pick one location to add a simple trap. At low levels, this can be as simple as a pit. If you see interesting terrain features included in the AP encounter, work out a trap around those.
For example: if the fight takes place next to a pool of lava, then there is a permanent magic aura that attempts to "pull" anyone who ends their turn within 15 feet of the edge in. If it beats their CMD, the unlucky player gets moved 5 or 10 feet closer. Hopefully, the first PC who gets pulled won't be pulled in in one turn (or will resist if they have a high CMD), and you can bet they'll run away. Oh, but the magic aura can be "attuned" to certain creatures with a ritual, making the attuned creatures immune. None of the PCs are attuned, and some or all of the monsters are. Don't worry about the spell level or construction cost or anything, just pick a CMB and a spellcraft DC to notice the aura. This works great in conjunction with a bull-rushing monster. The nice part about the trap I just described is that it can work at any level and can be inserted into an encounter really easily: just pick a CMB and spellcraft DC which your players have a reasonable chance to beat, and add it wherever a ledge is. If the players are high level and all have flight, then replace the lava pool with a force field that stretches to the ceiling and does damage plus stun. This method does involve more work than just giving a monster extra hit-points, but once you do it enough it becomes relatively quick to look at an encounter and decide on the best place for a trap. Warning: only do this if you and your players like having lots terrain/trap hazards in combat. If an encounter is already very complex, don't add too much more complexity, use another method such as the four above.

Also, I would strongly discourage lowering the point buy to 15, this will not solve anything: it will make the classes which are already underpowered worse, and won't really hurt the already-potent casters. You could give tier 1-2 classes a lower point-buy than tier 3-6 classes, but then your system just gets messed up by multi-classing.

Grand Lodge

One of the best things I did for my Kingmaker game was give the monsters max hit points per hit die. I have 3 players with very well built characters and they roll over most encounters. More hit points lets the monsters stay around long enough to do a bit more damage an survive those maximized, empowered fireballs.

I have also rewritten all of the main Big Bads to be more effective.

(There is a Magus, Witch and Cleric at level 14 currently starting the 5th module)

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