Big Blue 22's page

Unrest
Since upkeep = size (or size - Wis) and assuage Unrest = size /5 (or size / 7) (plus 1 week of downtime) it seems like it could get *very* attractive at higher levels to just never pay upkeep...

Perhaps the unrest created by not paying upkeep should depend on how *many* credits worth of upkeep you don't pay.

I was thinking 1d4 plus an additional 1 per 2 RUs you fail to spend.

I realize this is kind of an old thread but . .

I'm playing in the Horizons Campaign setting now. You are correct, once you get a few hexes it never makes any sense from a straight economics standpoint to pay upkeep. Under the rules you gain 1d4 unrest for not paying and then just Assuage Unrest to lower unrest by 1d4 for a single RP. Once the colony has 2 hexes it should never pay unrest again under RAW.

My suggestion is modify Assuage Unrest so it's not available as a Downtime Activity unless you Pay Upkeep in the same Charter Turn. So if you don't Pay Upkeep unrest goes up 1d4 and you don't get to do anything about it that Charter Turn. Unrest becomes a problem at 10 so a colony could theoretically skip it sometimes but not every single time. It kind of makes sense too, you pay upkeep to maintain the status quo then you can assuage to lower your unrest.

We've also run into a rule problem with Events. No colony should ever have a negative event unless they really have no clue. It's super easy to keep Charter Ability equal to or above Colony TN.

Maybe make TN = # of colony hexes/2.5 and still rounded up??

If a wizard has a quarterstaff for his bonded item, can he enchant it to make it into a magic staff? (not a magic weapon, a staff for casting spells)

Or the other way around: can a magic staff be used as a quarterstaff?

Yes

Physical Description: A typical staff measures anywhere from 4 feet to 7 feet long and is 2 inches to 3 inches thick, weighing about 5 pounds. Most staves are wood, but an exotic few are bone, metal, or even glass. A staff often has a gem or some device at its tip or is shod in metal at one or both ends. Staves are often decorated with carvings or runes. A typical staff is like a walking stick, quarterstaff, or cudgel. It has AC 7, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 24. http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/magicItems/staves.html

If a PC takes the Leadership feat does the player running the PC get to create the cohort and all the followers choosing their classes, races, skill, feats, equipment, etc.? The rule is utterly silent regarding where the cohort and followers come from.

In a recent session, a telekinetic trap pulled three characters into a pit of green slime. Resolving the exposure of their bodies to the green slime is pretty straightforward, but what about all their gear? In the green slime description it says "Against wood or metal, green slime deals 2d6 points of damage per round, ignoring metal's hardness but not that of wood. It does not harm stone." There is no mention of a saving throw.

There are some tables for arms and armor hit points and a table for material hit points, but I can't find anything that discusses what happens to magical or mundane items exposed to the slime. For instance, what about a handy haversack, efficient quiver, backpack, boots of striding and springing, a ring of protection, cloak of resistance, etc. etc. It looks to me like most things would not have very many hit points, like 5 or less. If you add another 10 for being magic like each plus 1 for arms and armor some of the gear would survive. This fall could be very expensive if all their gear is destroyed. Mending only repairs the item, it does not recreate the magic.

Thoughts?

Fire elementals have the 'burn' ability. Their attacks would destroy webs just as easily as a flaming weapon. That said, they would have to actually use attacks to destroy the web rather than just move through the web.

My initial thinking was the same as far as attacking squares or moving into them one at a time as move actions (one move action per square), but an elemental is all flame rather than just a flaming sword. It isn't exactly the same so it does seem it should be more effective.

Bump - I realize it's been a year, but I would lie to see what others think of this as well. Also how would the size of the elemental affect this??

Boots of Striding and Springing add 10' to "base land speed". The swim skill provides you may swim at up to half your "speed" (as a full-round action) or at a quarter of your speed (as a move action).

Some things like Haste specifically say they do increase swim speed, but the Boots only talk about land speed and jumping.

Do the Boots increase the distance that a character can swim in a round?

Just starting Hell's Rebels as a player. I am playing a human sorcerer kicked out of House Tanessen for recently questioning Thrune and the teachings of Asmodean. He had just started worshiping Sarenrae before martial law was enacted and the place of worship burned.

I am going with the Child of Kintargo trait and the Noble Scion Feat. I don't see any mention in the player's guide about where the PCs live so I was wondering if I can get a small 1 room flat in the worst neighborhood (which I assume is Old Kintargo) for the single non-magical 200gp item allowed under Child of Kintargo. Any idea how much a small run down place would cost based upon Kintargo's economy?

I looked at the Guide to Korvosa to get some idea about buying living quarters but it looked like it was out of my price range. Has martial law lowered the prices?

You have to adapt the CR to the group and it's makeup. Always been that way and always will be. The group I am gming now are undead killing machines. To be a challenge the undead CR I use is around 14-16 for a group of five 8th level characters.

Are there any written rules for low light vision/darkvision/light sources under water? I have a campaign in flooded catacombs.

I play in a campaign where anything in an official Pathfinder publication is allowed. I was just perusing my new dirty tactics book and I came across Accomplished Sneak Attacker:

Prerequisite(s): Sneak attack class feature.

Benefit(s): Your sneak attack damage increases by 1d6.

Your number of sneak attack dice cannot exceed half your character level (rounded up).

To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Skills: Disable Device 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.

Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.

Special: Sneak attack +2d6.
needs

So it looks like a character could go Wizard 3/Rogue or Assassin 1 and start taking AT levels with character level 5 and only be 1 level behind a straight wizard in CL. Am I missing something cause I am having a hard time figuring out why anyone in our campaign would go straight Wizard if he can get all the AT benefits for loss of only 1 CL?

It may make sense to put a 2nd level rogue just to get evasion.

[

From a developer's point of view, I have to consider how that might have gone for a group with no cleric or no other powerful anti-undead characters. It could easily result in the TPK you narrowly avoided, and rather than remember an epic battle for eight years, the players would carry with them the bitter taste of having faced an impossible challenge and failed.

That said, it sounds like a fun fight. I think it worked out especially well because you had a character nicely suited to battling the undead. Hitting that perfect balance of edge-of-the-seat challenge without denying the players their victory is a tough balance to strike. It sounds like it worked really well for your home game, where the GM was very familiar with the PCs' abilities. I'm skeptical about how well that same personalization could translate into the organized play format.

I don't think anyone could ever write an encounter that challenges every group. I think the GM has to constantly tweak modules for the group involved. The group I am gming now has a paladin and a cleric in a Frog God Game campaign were almost everything is evil and undead are pretty common. Recognizing this they have steered their characters toward dealing with undead and have become especially adept at mowing through them. Occasionally I alter an encounter replacing the evil undead with some kind of neutral but very hungry substitute to create a challenge for the group as it exists. I don't ever participate in PFS so tweaking on the fly is just part of running the game.

Ok, thanks guys

Big Blue 22 wrote:

Is this errata on the website somewhere? I saw there was an FAQ on grappling, but it does not include the language you quoted.

PRD - concentration checks wrote:

Grappling or Pinned: Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and it requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components.

It is here.

Ok thanks for linking it. After reading the official version I agree that the grappling grappled distinction appears to be irrelevant. However, the way the rules are written only pinned has the more restrictive no somatic components. Isn't the logical conclusion that in the grappled condition a spell with a somatic component can be cast with the proper concentration check?

I think the rules could use tidying up.

There's an errata saying, "Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components."

This implies "The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand" no longer applies.

Is this errata on the website somewhere? I saw there was an FAQ on grappling, but it does not include the language you quoted.

Grapple rules: "If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition."

I understand that. but it does not say grappled = grappling and grappling is more restrictive than grappled.

I have found various threads on grappled and spell casting, but have not seen anyone who noted the difference between being grappled and grappling someone. Are the grapple rules trying to say a grappled character can do things that the grappling character cannot? Is the idea that the grappling character is using both hands to grapple the target?

Grapple:
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Pinned: A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

It seems important to me that the Magic section uses "grappling" rather than grappled. I suppose it could be a typo, but I don’t think so. I think it is intended to limit the grappler as they are focused on hanging on to the grappled. Any thoughts?

Any thoughts on with Wands, Scrolls, Unsanctioned Knowledge, other Pally spells?

There are some old threads on spells, wands etc. Search "Smite and Spells".

RAW is add smite damage to all damage roles.

I would be interested in putting together some kind of arcane caster if submissions are still open. I have 40 years of RPG starting with the original box set from the late 70's, however, I'm a total newbie to online campaigns.

I will put Myron the Magnificent together over the weekend and submit for consideration.

The PCs in my group have a broom-of-flying. The rules are unclear and these boards have not offered any definitive answers (that I could find) regarding how riding/flying a broom of flying (broom) works. The broom description references overland flight which in turn references fly. The broom description also references +4 to fly skill checks. The Fly skill DC list appears to be mostly focused on winged flight (hovering requires a check, etc.) but also governs the fly spell. The Ride skill references riding any mount including flying mounts. The broom has weight restrictions: 400 max, and faster at less than 200. The broom will come when called and can be sent places apparently without a rider. Ride specifically talks about guiding the mount with your knees, shooting a bow riding, etc. A carpet of flying specifically says it needs verbal commands for control and does not need to make a check to hover, language not included in the broom description. Like the broom, the carpet has weight limits and weight affects the speed.

Has anyone put some thought into this and made up any kind of home rule they would be willing to share?

Here are the questions we have run into:

1) How is a broom controlled while in flight: verbal command, thoughts, pointing and leaning, other?

2) Does riding a broom involve skill checks with ride, fly, or some combination of the two?

3) Can a PC ride a broom of flying without using either hand like guiding a mount with knees?

3a) A mount generally has a saddle or some apparatus for connecting or securing the rider, how difficult is it to stay on a broom?

4) What are the DCs for zipping around on the broom?

5) Can 2 characters who total less than the max weight limit both ride the broom?

5a) If so, what does that do to the DCs?

5b) If so, can they change transfer control of the broom while in flight?

Entirely different advice for a first-time caster:

KNOW YOUR SPELLS

Buy spell cards, buy 3 X 5 index cards and make you own, make your own spreadsheet that automatically calculates all the variables; whatever, just know your spells backwards and forwards.

As a DM or Player, few things are as teeth-grindingly annoying as watching someone fumble around trying to figure out which spell to cast or how the spell they've finally chosen actually works.

In tandem with that advice: Choose a default spell list.

You should have a list of spells that you always have memorized on any given day. That way, if the DM surprises you with something, your spell list is done.

Very well said. Running a spell caster without bogging down the game takes some pregame planning. I always make a spread sheet of my available spells.

I would add that when you have time make memorized spell lists for several settings - dungeon crawl, city adventure, maritime, forest, jungle, desert, mountains, fighting undead, etc. You will do a much better job of picking spells ahead of time then doing so on the fly.

We ran into a situation this week where the party had eliminated the enemy's one sentry without being detected. The players then had a discussion about what to do next. About 30 seconds into the player discussion, one player, without informing or discussing it with any other player, turned to the GM and said, "I cast Stinking Cloud into the middle of the enemies' camp." No one else said that the were doing anything. GM said role initiative and allowed the spell to be cast in the surprise round but then ruled that no one else got a surprise round as they were not aware the spell was going to be cast so they could not synchronize their attacks in the surprise round. Basically they were surprised by the spell being cast and unprepared. Thoughts?

Since Phil Collins is officially coming out of retirement and releasing new material I was wondering if you had any idea what his Pathfinder class/race/level/stats would be??

Headband of Alluring Charisma +6 costs 36,000 gp, not 18,000. Not only would you not have enough gp at level 5, you wouldn't have enough Fame either.

It appears your character was invalid for 6 levels.

Ok, I did not catch that this was a PFS thread. My character is not PFS.

I realize this thread has been dead a while, but I wanted to point out that you can get a Paladin with a working Ultimate Mercy at 5th Level if you throw your entire character path into doing so.

Start with a 18 CH, +2 (Assimar or other), +1 CH at 4th level, +6 Headband = 27 CH, +8 Mod

At 3rd level you get Mercy ability and immediately take Greater Mercy Feat

At 5th level take Ultimate Mercy feat and have 10 LOH/day (2 for half level at 5th and 8 for CH mod)

I have a Paladin that has this build and had the 18K for the headband.

Being able to raise dead party members at level 5 was pretty sweet. Since it cost him all 10 of his available LOH he would try to wait until the party was somewhere safe to use it. The 24 hour negative level was not really a big deal since he had used up all his LOH and needed to rest a day in any event.

He is currently 11th level and is up to 18 LOH per day after taking Extra LOH twice. Now he uses Ultimate Mercy mostly to raise dead NPC foes or murder victims to question them. Even former foes are often pretty thankful for being raised and combined with his monster charisma he has become quite good at turning minions into informants.

He always takes the 24 hour negative level rather than spend the 5K. The 1 day negative level has never really had a significant effect. A few attacks have missed with the penalty, but that's about it.

Big Blue 22 wrote:

Second, if he is campaigning he has to either know he is going into combat ahead of time to cast it or he has to take the first round of combat to buff his weapon.

Greater Magic Weapon lasts 1 hour per level, so by 10th level you're getting to the point where it'll be on almost all day.

EDIT: I have no idea how this ended up above the post I quoted, but...

Ok, agreed that 7 hours (apply the -3CL penalty) is still a pretty significant amount of time.

Your replied to my comment that I deleted and reposted as a reply to the previous comments.

137ben wrote:

Big Blue 22 wrote:

[

Magic weapon greater is ok.....Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

No, no, no. You're looking at it completely backwards.

If you have access to Greater Magic Weapon, you should not purchase a +2 weapon. Ever. Instead, get a weapon with special abilities. Take a look at some Magic Weapon Special Abilities. Some are good, some are bad, but all of them do something. If you didn't have greater magic weapon, getting any of those abilities would mean not being able to buy enhancement bonuses for your weapon. But WITH greater magic weapon, you can have the best weapon special abilities while still getting a high enhancement bonus for free!

The only possible advantage of a weapon with a straight enhancement bonus over GMW+special weapon properties is the ability to bypass some types of Damage Reduction. Putting aside the relative rarity of those types of DR, you're a paladin. Your Smite Evil bypasses all damage reduction. Once you have GMW, you have no reason whatsoever to use a weapon with a built-in enhancement bonus higher than +1. Spend the gold on non-weapon things, or on other enhancements to your weapon.

I understand your position, but I totally disagree with it. In my experience a lot of things in Pathfinder sound good when you read the rule, but don't work very well in practice.

To start you have to put +1 on the weapon before you put on any of the special abilities you suggest. So finally at 13th level paladin (Caster Level 10) he finally gets to +2 (an extra +1 because they don't stack). Then at 18th level +3 (an extra +2), etc.

Second, if he is campaigning he has to either know he is going into combat ahead of time to cast it or he has to take the first round of combat to buff his weapon.

Third, his divine bond already does the same thing better than this spell. Divine Bond specifically says the enhancement bonus stacks with any bonus already on the weapon.

Big Blue 22 wrote:

[

Magic weapon greater is ok.....Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

No, no, no. You're looking at it completely backwards.

If you have access to Greater Magic Weapon, you should not purchase a +2 weapon. Ever. Instead, get a weapon with special abilities. Take a look at some Magic Weapon Special Abilities. Some are good, some are bad, but all of them do something. If you didn't have greater magic weapon, getting any of those abilities would mean not being able to buy enhancement bonuses for your weapon. But WITH greater magic weapon, you can have the best weapon special abilities while still getting a high enhancement bonus for free!

The only possible advantage of a weapon with a straight enhancement bonus over GMW+special weapon properties is the ability to bypass some types of Damage Reduction. Putting aside the relative rarity of those types of DR, you're a paladin. Your Smite Evil bypasses all damage reduction. Once you have GMW, you have no reason whatsoever to use a weapon with a built-in enhancement bonus higher than +1. Spend the gold on non-weapon things, or on other enhancements to your weapon.

The best 3rd level Paladin spell is Extended Litany of Righteousness.

Well, that hyperbole, almost nothing ever survives a single successful casting of that.

But Greater Magic Weapon at level 10 is at best a +1 buff, Resist Energy can be cast by anyone in the party, and Dispel Magic is even more of a trap option for a paladin than i t is for a regular caster.

Litany of Righteousness, Extended has potential at the price of making Extend his next feat. I think this is probably worth taking the feat. Thanks for posting it. I could also add the extend feat to Litany of Sloth or Grace.

It does also back up my point that 3rd level paladin spells are not that great when the best 3rd level spell is a 2nd level spell extended.

Angelic Aspect gives a whole crop of bonuses at once, which is nice.

Thanks for the suggestion. Angelic Aspect is pretty good and not listed in the PRD spell index so I'm glad you posted it.

Dispel Magic, and Prayer are also 3rd level. If you don’t have a cleric in the party both these spells are useful especially prayer. Prayer may not seem like much of a spell, but it is actually very useful.

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree prayer is useful, but if a group has a cleric/shaman/Etc. that can cast prayer a paladin will leave it to them.

With the CL-3 penalty for paladins I don't think much of dispel magic for paladins.

Also consider that you're getting access to many of the important out-of-combat Cleric status removal spells.

I agree access is useful, but the Paladin CL being -3 from class level really limits the usefulness of any spell requiring a CL check or opposed roll.

Uh.

Flight
Long-term weapon buffing
Mass energy resistance
See invisibility

Oh, and as a 2nd-level spell, you're forgetting Litany of Righteousness.

Thanks for the links and suggestions, glad I posted. Angelic Aspect is not in the PRD spell list and is pretty useful. I will definitely add it.

Magic weapon greater is ok, but since almost any class can caste it I would not memorize it as a Paladin. Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

Energy resistance anyone can cast again so I would rarely memorize/use it.

Litany of Sight has potential except for the 1 rd duration is a massive limitation.

So I just had a Paladin make 10 level gaining access to 3rd Level Paladin spells. I have read them and a few are ok (Deadly Juggernaut, Burst of Speed, Litany of Escape) but none really jump out like Hero's Defiance (1st) or Paladin's Sacrifice (2nd). Am I missing something?

Are you sure your GM WANTS you to kill this guy?

He seems to be going way out of his way to make sure you have no viable options for dealing with him long term.

Yeah, the assassin has been hired specifically to kill us, so we have to deal with him.

Big Blue 22 wrote:

We have some access to higher level items through our employer who has an incentive to thwart the vampire assassin. For instance we recently got an experimental magical vacuum bottle that when opened will suck in all the air/gas in a 10'r and then cap itself automatically. We are going to try next time around.

"Why didn't you list that among our assets in the first place?" Wesley, The Princess Bride

Sounds like the GM was giving you something like the gas trap anyway.

Yeah - they made the whole "immune to damage when gaseous" a bit tough to deal with, especially with any GM who will justify: "Oh - there's always a crack in the wall/floor/ceiling he can escape through!"

Good luck!

Using experimental items is always a last resort. We asked them to make the item, but experimental items from our employer have about a 50% chance of functioning properly, a 25% chance of exploding and likely killing half the group and a 25% chance of doing absolutely nothing. An actual item with a description is much better for us.

Do you think the gaseous creature has to save every round in the area of the trap or just once?

Gas-trap cylinder

Rather expensive, but designed for specifically gaseous creatures.

There we go, that's what I'm talking about!

And what is your party's composition?

What resources do you have?

We have a paladin, shaman, wizard(evocation), rogue, & fighter. all 7th level. We are generally geared to inflict maximum damage as fast as possible. We typically will turn him gaseous either late in the first round or early in the second round of combat.

We have some access to higher level items through our employer who has an incentive to thwart the vampire assassin. For instance we recently got an experimental magical vacuum bottle that when opened will suck in all the air/gas in a 10'r and then cap itself automatically. We are going to try next time around.

Grappling is a classic. Gaseous Form doesn't make him immune.

Get him Pinned and you can go all night.

Shoving him into a Bag of Holding or something can work.

Command Undead is a thing.

You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules. If a gaseous creature can slip through any crack because it's gaseous, it can easily slip through the gaps between your fingers or arms.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kc70?Grappling-VS-Gaseous-Form#1

I think it would be the same for bullrush to push him into anything.

Command undead has some potential depending on whether asking him to stand still for 2 hours would fall under "An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, ...." It would likely also be a fairly easy save for him, but worth a try.

I'm doubtful he needs an item to cast Nondetection since he can cast Contingency.

I'm a bit baffled as to why this guy's such a wimp if he can cast 6th level spells.

I don't think he is casting the contingency himself. He is a minion of our employer's arch nemesis sent to deal with us. The invisibility isn't really as big of an issue as trying to keep up with him or contain him after we force him gaseous.

Haste will bump that to 40 BTW.

Big Blue 22 wrote:

Otherwhere wrote:

Elemental Body. Earth will give you Earth Glide. Air - you might be able to catch him in your whirlwind.

Wind Wall - prevent him from crossing/escaping.

We tried a wind wall too, worked for a while, but we still run into duration limits. He has 2 hours to get to his coffin.

Elemental Body I is one we have not tried and has some potential, still only 1 min/L though.

Here's another one for you: Locate Object on his coffin. Smash it while you have him trapped somewhere.

We tried haste as well, duration too short to keep up the chase. Please remember we have forced him gaseous already by this time so he has 2 hours in gaseous form to get where he wants. We can't damage him anymore so we need to figure out a way to either 1) trap him for two hours or 2) trap him long enough to expose him to running water or light or 3) follow him to the unknown location of one of his coffins defeat, his likely guardian, and then stake him.

We tried overland flight once as well, but he just flew through cracks into areas we could not follow.

He never attacks us anywhere near running water or dawn.

We have never seen any of his coffins. he has followed us for a considerable distance so he apparently has a means to relatively easily move his coffins. We have tried locate object general coffin a few times, but the range is only 680 feet at our level. We did find a nice graveyard once with this, but otherwise have come up empty.

You mention smash it while we have him trapped. This is precisely what we are asking, how would you suggest we trap him somewhere?

Use some divination magic -- yes, vampires have high Will saves, but sooner or later he's going to fail one. Scrying and divination are quite within the competence of a party that can cast 4th level spells, and you may be able to consult a local priest or wizard who can cast commune or contact other plane, or perhaps legend lore.

This is basically our conclusion too. He will fail a save sooner or later. Our wizard makes a Locate Creature scroll every day and last time just rattled off 6 of them, but no luck getting through. We could add having the cleric firing off divination spells as well.

Elemental Body. Earth will give you Earth Glide. Air - you might be able to catch him in your whirlwind.

Wind Wall - prevent him from crossing/escaping.

We tried a wind wall too, worked for a while, but we still run into duration limits. He has 2 hours to get to his coffin.

Elemental Body I is one we have not tried and has some potential, still only 1 min/L though.

Rynjin wrote:

Erm, Vampires don't need to breathe. But anyway.

Who said anything about breathing?

Back on topic, how about a good old-fashioned foot-race? Or, whatever you have instead of feet when you're a cloud of gas...

Have someone in the party with See Invisible or True Sight or Arcane Sight or any other trick to see the invisible vampire gas, and that character ALSO turns into gas. The race is on!

Though, at the finish line, one of them is a 0 HP vampire ready to be staked like a Roman deserter, and the other one is the guy with the stake...

Vampire forced gaseous has a 20 fly speed. Character under gaseous form has a 10 fly speed, so not much of a race there. We tried that once.

Erm, Vampires don't need to breathe. But anyway.

Glitterdust is a good, versatile spell that you should prepare often in any case.

Likewise, See Invisibility is something most of my characters cast before entering ANY dungeon if they have it available.

Your problem really seems to be lack of preparation with basic precautions than anything else.

Thanks for the suggestions, I guess.

See invisibility is a self range spell so of limited use. It also only lasts 70 minutes at this point so I really don't see how characters could use it as a always on "basic precaution" but that was not my question in any event.

Glitterdust only last 1 rd/ level, so it's also not real useful for trying to follow him for an hour or two.

The problem we run into is by the time see invisibility and gaseous form are cast on the hunter the vampire is 40' away and has passed through one or more cracks. Even if we were willing to send only our mage after him he quite likely has a guardian at each of his coffins. Plus once you cast gaseous form to get through the cracks your movement is fly 10 for 2min/Level. The vampire forced gaseous is flying at 20 for up to 2 hours and can pass through as many cracks as he wants the entire time. There just doesn't seem to be a way to catch him if he picks the spot of his attack based upon having a proper exit path for his gaseous form. He is also mobile and actually moves his coffins.

Our 7th level group has an arch nemesis vampire. We have turned him gaseous on several occasions but he always seems to slip away. He has a contingency that when he turns gaseous he also becomes invisible. He has a magic item that gives him permanent non-detection. He only attacks us when he has an escape route - cracks in floor, walls or ceilings that we cannot get through quick enough to follow him. We only have access to 4th level spells at this point in time plus we can't really afford to memorize spells designed specifically to get him as he appears rarely. We tried making scrolls of gaseous form, locate creature, see invisible, etc. to try and follow/find him, but between a round or two lead while we use the scrolls, the invisibility, and the non-detection we can't seem to stay with him. I suppose sooner or later locate creature will get past his magic item with the DC23 non-detection and he will fail his save against the locate creature, but we estimate each of these is about a 25% success for us so we are looking at about 1/16 chance of getting a locate to work.

Any thoughts?

I always assumed that 10 was normal but that the curve up or down from 10 was somewhat exponential. In reviewing the way the ability bonuses work Pathfinder seems to treat the increase or decrease in ability scores as linear.

Big Blue 22 wrote:

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Big Blue 22 wrote:

Paladin character leader orders wizard character with a 6 charisma to memorize certain spells for an upcoming encounter, wizard wants to memorize different spells - make a roll. In this instance if the wizard used his intellect to convince the Paladin that other spells were needed I would let wizard add his INT mod to his charisma roll.

Wait, are you letting players take control of each other's characters with stat rolls? That's ... well, if I was playing at any table where the GM did that, I'd probably leave.

I disagree with the "taking control" reference. Players need to play their characters per the characters' abilities on the character sheet. A character with a 6 Int and 8 Wis should not be figuring out complicated puzzles regardless of the player's ability to figure out the puzzle (unless he roles a nat 20 on the appropriate skill check). IMO while others are working on the puzzle the player should go refill his soda or take a trip to the bathroom or sit and silently wait or make a dumb suggestion. Play the character you created including playing her weaknesses, perform the acts and say the things the character would say, give her a personality and that fits the stats. A player making her character do and say things the character would not or could not do is a piss poor roleplayer again IMO.

... What?

What does any of that have to do with your prior post that I was quoting and responding to? It's a complete non-sequitur.

This is a thread about the consequences of stat dumping. I choose that particular charisma ability because it seems the favorite of the stat dumpers as it does not affect saves, hit points, # of skill points per level, AC bonuses, attack or damage rolls, or the ability to carry anything. My point is a character with a very high charisma when dealing with a player with a really, really low charisma should have an advantage if they disagree, just like she would with an NPC. IMO a good role player will play the character according to her charisma, but if a charismatic player chooses to have his extremely low charisma character continually butt heads with a much more charismatic character over an activity that would normally involve charisma based skill check if it was with and NPC I think you have to make opposing skill checks at some point in time. If you don't there is no real disadvantage to the stat dump just give the guy a 2 charisma or and use the points elsewhere.

I can think of lots of examples that would involve characters making opposed skill checks and am not sure why diplomacy checks would be any different. Two characters are on a 10' pit trap when the floor drops out. There is a small ledge that only one player can fit on to prevent a fatal fall. How do you decide which player gets to the ledge. Assuming both make perception checks to see the ledge they are next going to make opposing acrobatics check to see who gets hold of the ledge and who dies. Why would a charisma based skill check be ignored because the player thinks it should be ignored.

IMHO, puzzle are for the players not for the PCs, it the puzzle is about beating a DC with an int check or something then it is not a puzzle.

I understand your point, but disagree.

Your conclusion is that if the player is intelligent the character stats are irrelevant to anything that does not involve an actual die roll. Similarly if the player is charismatic the character's charisma stat is irrelevant unless a situation actually calls for a die roll. This is precisely the logic that leads to stat dumping as there are almost no consequences to dump many stats if the player chooses to ignore the dumped stat.

My position is the character's stats need to enter into the character's actions.

Take this example - Character with 20 charisma suggests a course of action to the group. Character with a 6 charisma suggest a different course of action to the group. Unless other characters have some reason to strongly desire one course over the other the group should almost always follow Mr. Charisma.

Remember when picking teams in dodge ball we pick the bigger, stronger, athletic players first even if their dumb so we can team up on Winston the small, uncoordinated, weak, egghead. If your character is a Winston play him like a Winston. If she is a moose, play her like a moose.

Big Blue 22 wrote:

There seems to be a general theme that many believe dumping charisma or another stat is not a big deal. Obviously it depends on how your game is run and I suspect most GMs allow the players to role play interactions without making some kind of charisma role. When I GM I constantly have characters make charisma based roles.

Character strolls into the tavern and says can I get a booth in the back, make a roll to see what the tavern keeper's reaction is, the booth may be free, cost a little extra, cost a lot extra, or may be refused access all together.

Paladin character leader orders wizard character with a 6 charisma to memorize certain spells for an upcoming encounter, wizard wants to memorize different spells - make a roll. In this instance if the wizard used his intellect to convince the Paladin that other spells were needed I would let wizard add his INT mod to his charisma roll.

Same thing if the Wizard has no strength or any other stat. Everyone grabs a sack of gold and run. The wizard with a 6 strength now moves at 10 and gets left behind or more likely drops the sack.

The cleric with an 8 DEX in full plate is failing any Dex related check she makes. She tries to cross the rope bridge. Opps, can you fly? No? Well you just found out how deep the chasm is.

Etc., etc., etc.

If the characters in a group are all dumping stats down below 8 it is likely the GM is not taking into account the weakness created in the character by the stat dump. Just to be clear I am not saying a GM should search a characters sheet seeking weaknesses (unless the group has an arch nemesis who would know them this well) but the GM does have to make characters roll the appropriate skill checks for everything including the dumped stat.

So I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Are you saying that the GM should use Diplomacy Checks, Bluff Checks, and the like? Or are you saying they should use flat Charisma checks? Was your paladin wizard example doing a paladin CHARISMA...

If there is an appropriate skill use a skill check, if not improvise.

Admittedly, I am an old school DND guy. I started playing in the late 1970's with the original box set with 32 page books that measured 8 1/2 x 5 1/2. In most ways the game was more fun back then when there was very little time spent plowing through voluminous rule books that is common place in today games. Imagination was more important than rulebooks.