Hi,
Am about to start a campaign where there will ne a lot of demons.
One of my PCs wants to take the demonslayer ranger archetype, and I'm thinking it's a bit op.
As written you only give up Endurance, and you get
1) 1/2 fav bonus to saves vs demons
2) new spells on hour list
3) an option to do something different (better?) with your quarry bonuses
4) 1/2 class level on knowledge/percep/tracking for demons
Was thinking of not giving them other favored enemy types (to balance the crazy save bonus) and possibly remove the extra spells too(?)
Don't wanna nerf too much though, but archetypes outside of the Inner Sea books seem more tradeout/balanced.
Thanks
Honestly, it's not that bad or overpowered at all.
Yes, he does get quite a few awesome benefits, but they only function against evil outsiders, and more specifically only demons with his Demonologist.
He may only seem to give up Endurance for this archetype, but he also actually gives up his ability to increase any other favored enemy. That means his favored enemy bonuses to demons will be extremely awesome (up to +10 at 20th level), but his favored enemy bonuses to literally anything else will only ever be +2.
It is a flavorful archetype (provided, of course, your player plays up the 'demon hate' angle) that excels at the thing it wants to do, while remaining specialized; don't penalize your character for wanting to fit into the setting.
Edit: this also might belong in the Houserules forum, but I'm not sure. Flagged it so mods will be able to make that decision.
He is really good against one enemy type. Overall that makes him worse. I don't see it as OP, however how many demons he fights could be a factor in how much trouble it gives you. It is not much different than a paladin in an undead heavy campaign though.
He is really good against one enemy type. Overall that makes him worse. I don't see it as OP, however how many demons he fights could be a factor in how much trouble it gives you. It is not much different than a paladin in an undead heavy campaign though.
Or a paladin in a demon-heavy campaign. Evil Ousiders get that 2x level to damage for smite as well.
He is really good against one enemy type. Overall that makes him worse. I don't see it as OP, however how many demons he fights could be a factor in how much trouble it gives you. It is not much different than a paladin in an undead heavy campaign though.Or a paladin in a demon-heavy campaign. Evil Ousiders get that 2x level to damage for smite as well.
True, but only on the first hit, not that it means paladins don't make demons cry. :)
Don't focus too much on demons. The Giantslayer AP suffers from a strong focus on giants, encouraging overspecialization and provoking boredom after a while. It partially compensates with creative ideas, but if you pull the same monster type very often, variety is reduced no matter what.
I'd throw some demons at them often, so the demonslayer can shine. But I would also use cultists, corrupted fey, corrupted plants, an orc tribe and maybe even a manipulated paladin, to keep them on their toes.
I understand that the advantages are only against Evil Outsiders (not just demons) but I was thinking more about the concept of a balanced archetype. An archetype shouldn't make you more powerful than the base class, ideally - there should be tradeoffs.
The only think it gives up is Endurance (and that you have to continue to boost Evil Outsider, but that's just a design decision any ranger could choose anyway).
In return for losing Endurance, they get a big save boost (yes, only to Evil outsiders), extra spells, and skill boosts to skills that are already boosted.
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Archetypes definitely make you more powerful than the base class- in different circumstances. The ranger is forgoing his FE against non-evil outsiders, which is pretty significant. Meaning, he was be a Betrayer level BA against the Burning Legion demons themselves, he's less than every other martial against their cultists, summoners, thralls, etc.
I honestly don't think it'll be as bad as you're making it out to be.
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I'd say this is the perfect time to pick that archetype. You're never going to see someone take it unless it's this kind of campaign.
Let's say instead of Demonslayer he just goes Ranger and puts all his Favoured Enemy points into Demon's anyway (I know it's evil outsiders), would it be that different?
Compared to a normal ranger the Demonslayer gets:
Lvl 01 - Bonus to saves that starts at +1 and gets to +5 at level 20. It's nice, but it's slow in its increase and only works vs his chosen foe.
Lvl 03 - Starts at +1 & eventually gets to +10 in 3 skills. Good skills, but again only against his foe and only in specific circumstances.
Lvl 04/07/10/13 - Spells. He's never going to be able to cast these a lot, so even though he's getting extras it's not going to unbalance the game.
Lvl 11 - Treats his weapon as good, this basically saves him a spell-slot at this point, except that he sacrifices +2 to hit for it.
Lvl 19 - Holy weapon vs +4 to hit. I mean I'm sure there are times when I'd take that, but +4 is a lot.
01 makes him slightly tougher against demons.
03 makes him better at finding demons.
11/19 give him options that seem sub-optimal at times.
Really it's only the spells that seem really powerful, and really rangers don't get enough spells to be spamming them. They're utility. Pretty much everything here is a slight upgrade in utility, for the restriction of having all your bonuses count against evil outsiders.
I say let it fly. Your player will feel good for finding an archetype that fits the campaign, the rest of the party will likely enjoy having him there to save them from the demons, but they can take centre-stage when you fight anything else. He won't outshine a smiting Paladin or any other focused characters. You all get to see an archetype that you'd probably never see otherwise. And if it does become a problem your demons could just get a bit smarter (The ranger is great at tracking the demon, but not his lackeys). Change some (not all) of the enemy types so he doesn't walk over every encounter (let him walk some, you don't want him to feel like you're picking on him).
Archetypes definitely make you more powerful than the base class- in different circumstances. The ranger is forgoing his FE against non-evil outsiders, which is pretty significant. Meaning, he was be a Betrayer level BA against the
Burning Legiondemons themselves, he's less than every other martial against their cultists, summoners, thralls, etc.I honestly don't think it'll be as bad as you're making it out to be.
Not truly forgoing FE in other things, still gets 4 other critter-types at +2 (which I admit isn't much). Not really sure what kind of split Rangers usually do for different FEs (how many they update, how many stay +2 etc).
Ya, I see what you guys are saying about for balance sake. I actually have no real issue with anything in the archetype for power level (except maybe the skills, and that's only because as FE they already get bonus to these skills). It's really that I feel like it should cost more in trade. So many other archetypes give up more than just 1 thing to get these types of additions, and Endurance is really much.
This archetype is great for a Wrath of the Righteous. Other APs? Not so hot.
This archetype is great for a Wrath of the Righteous. Other APs? Not so hot.
Yes, that is the AP -- still, other than having to boost EO, everything else is just gravy though, additions
I'll put it to you this way, in Wrath, mythic itself is 100x more unbalancing than any archetype published by Paizo.
Don't sweat the small stuff. Houserule mythic so it doesn't ruin the campaign. Thousands of damage per round are par for the course for mythic characters.
I'll put it to you this way, in Wrath, mythic itself is 100x more unbalancing than any archetype published by Paizo.
Don't sweat the small stuff. Houserule mythic so it doesn't ruin the campaign. Thousands of damage per round are par for the course for mythic characters.
LOL, ya we're doing non-mythic, with a few character perks. Which is why I don't care really that much about this. Just don't want it unfair to other players, if the demonslayer doesn't have to "pay" as expensive a cost for for archetype upgrades as other characters, which seems to be the case -- for what they get and give up
Dude, if you have a mythic wizard the s&$# they will be so crazy compared to what the ranger, even this ranger specialized into fighting demons will do you will look back and wonder why you were ever worried about it.
Yeah, he's really good against demons. But this is literally the only time you would ever want to use that archetype since it's basically worthless if you're not sure to be fighting demons often.
As noted the skill bonuses really aren't a big deal, the extra spells aren't a big deal since the ranger can't cast them often enough or early enough to really matter, and the other stuff isn't great either. The one really good thing is the save bonus. This archtype is good if you expect to fight a lot of demons, but worthless if you wont encounter them the majority of the time. And while you don't lose much, you don't gain that much either.
Seriously, don't worry about. Worry about how you're going to house rule mythic so that this campaign doesn't get away from you, because it will do way more to screw stuff up than this archetype will.
The archetype also limits his other favored enemy bonuses. Sure he get a huge bonus vs evil outsiders but he get almost nothing else. He cannot for example advance favored enemy human to deal the cultist or over minion. He also cannot advance favored enemy undead which witch a lot of demons use. The wording of the favored enemy is not clear if they still get other favored enemies. If you are worried about balance simply take away the other favored enemies.
The extra spells are really not that big of a deal. He does not get any more spell slot to cast them they are simply added to his list. Almost every book published expands the ranges spell list so if adding spell to the list is overpowered that has already happened.
The Quarry options are actually pretty weak. In a demon heavy campaign most those will be the most common enchantment for weapons. By 11th level almost all characters are going to have a weapon that is good aligned, and by 19th level holy will also be common. While in a normal campaign those may not be common any player who can get those type of weapon will. They are just too useful when fighting against demons.
I don’t think you have anything to worry about even if they get other favored enemies. He will be doing less damage than a moderately optimize paladin and have less defenses.
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Favored Enemy: Must take Outsider(evil) at level one and advance this favored enemy at every opportunity. Get a bonus equal to half your FE bonus against evil outsider abilities.
- Pros: Saving Throw bonus is nice.
- Cons: Can never get a FE bonus above +2 for any other type of creature, Evil outsiders are not a great choice at level 1 (but you'll use it a lot more around level 4).
- Conclusion: Improved defenses in exchange for less flexibility.
Demonologist: Gain bonuses to a couple of skills against demons instead of gaining Endurance.
- Pros: The skills are somewhat useful.
- Cons: 'Somewhat' might be stretching it (Are you going to track something that can teleport?).
- Conclusion: Insignificant.
Expanded Spell List: Add some good 'anti-outsider' to your spell list.
- Pros: The added spells are all very solid.
- Cons: Rangers don't get a lot of spell slots, and most of these spells are gained far too late to be really useful. Additionally, a dedicated caster should already be providing these spells for the group.
- Conclusion: A minor bonus.
Fiendish Quarry: You can make your weapon good-aligned.
- Pros: Good aligned weapons are always, well, good.
- Cons: In fact, everyone in the party should have holy weapons before you get this ability (not to mention you gained 'align weapon' as a spell) so it is largely pointless (our group upgraded 5 weapons to +1 Holy at the end of chapter 2 (level 9) for our three dual wielders (one was also wielding Radiance)).
- Conclusion: Mostly pointless.
Improved Fiendish Quarry: You can make your weapon Holy.
- Pros: Better than the 'Fiendish Quarry' option.
- Cons: As per 'Fiendish Quarry', anyone without a holy weapon at this point (level 19) must be purposely avoiding them.
- Conclusion: Too little, WAY too late...
Overall, the saving throw bonus is the only significant part of this archetype: It's a nice bonus that is somewhat offset by only functioning against evil outsiders. Unfortunately, WotR is an AP that will allow it to shine (seriously, a ranger without this archetype will shine nearly as well, along with smiting paladins and some divine blasting builds). I'd rate this as a strong but by no means overpowered archetype for WotR, but fairly weak in any other campaign.