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Just thought of something I'd like to see: more options for item familiars. I want rules to make a minor intelligent item as your familiar. This isn't totally unfilled, but a formal and straightforward way to have a gun or mirror as your familiar would be appreciated.

Especially appropriate for Thaums, of course, but I can see this used on a witch or wizard as well.


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Opsylum wrote:
Maddy Muffer, CG/CE Monkey Goblin (Vanguard Gunslinger, Legendary Parents background):

As an aside, this makes me wish even harder that champion oaths weren’t alignment locked. The idea of a champion swearing an oath that they have to fight their own nature to fulfill (or in this case, gets Jiminy Cricketted by their celestial ally) seems like a compelling bit of roleplay, and I’ll forever be annoyed that you can’t play that character.

There’s barbarians I suppose, but not quite the same thing.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't think "stronger than the baseline" is a good thing to do at the class level anyway. Since presumably the party will consist of a number of classes that are at the baseline, it's seldom good when one player gets more stuff because of a top level choice they made.

If you wanted to tell a story with PCs who are uncommonly capable, things like free archetype, deep backgrounds, and dual classing works better.

True, but reading your post, it occurs to me that ancestry, general, and skill feats are technically linked to your class. So it’s theoretically possible to have a class that reduces or eliminates those feat slots entirely for more mechanics (or just more class feats).

Which I suppose would qualify it as “stronger than baseline” while not actually breaking those guidelines.

And even if perfectly balanced, something that edits the base assumptions that thoroughly would certainly warrant a rare tag.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Having a Swash-esque combat state triggered by a skill check could be really cool, but especially if basing it on the deity's favoured skill I struggle to imagine how to create a unique action for each possible deity skill which nevertheless shares theme across all deities who share that skill. Furthermore, if thus inquisitor had spells, deities with favoured skills that align with the casting stat would have an inherent synergy boost from lining up their ability scores.

I won't say it can't work, but given that iirc almost every skill can be a deity's favoured, it seems like too much page space for what might otherwise be simply filling in numbers

Yes and no. It could take the method that the swashbuckler took, and reference a (new or existing) skill feat and let that action drive whatever bonus damage the class gets.

These should all be single target effects of some kind, along the lines of Bon Mot, but varying according to the skill itself. It need not be universally applicable; for instance survival could give a combat bonus against plants, animals, and beasts, while Arcane does more or less "Extract Element" but only dealing the damage part.

But once you have the skill feats, the class itself can just have a table with a skill matched to the feat, and again like swashbucklers granting some kind of bonus effect when you succeed or critically succeed against a target. I personally favor the playtest magi's "saving throw of your next spell is 1 step worse for the target when you critically succeed" but anything is possible.

As this would also give a bunch of new combat actions for skills like Medicine or Society, accessible to all characters, all the better.


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Apologies, I meant Eldritch Trickster, not Magical Trickster.

Though I'd really like to see some more spell attack rolls added to divine list, that's a different problem.


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keftiu wrote:
Thankfully, Pathfinder is a game about options, and I don't really understand arguing against more class choices, especially ones that would have their own niche (i.e. an offense-driven divine class).

Because the developers for Pathfinder don't think like that. Mechanical niche seems to be of secondary, perhaps as far as quaternary, concern when they are designing a new class. "What stories need a new class to tell properly?" seems to be their primary concern.

If you want a reason for why the inquisitor has been on the backburner, that is almost certainly the answer: the lack of a new narrative niche that isn't already handily filled by an existing class. Including specifically an offensive divine character with an ability that works quite a bit like Spellstrike (Channel Smite).

I'm 100% in favor of new classes for new options sake, frankly I don't mind overlap on a narrative front, but Captain Morgan has a pretty strong point as well.


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Perpdepog wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:

Stuff I've homebrewed that I'd love to see in game:

-More alchemy bullets. I'd love to see an entire research field actually, but more bullets would be a great start.
-Level 0 alchemy items. Like bullets, I imagine level 0 bombs, elixirs, and other items could be created using infused reagents without expending those reagents.

How do the level 0 options work in your games? I'm imagining a bomb that deals 1 damage, or perhaps just the splash, but is still useful for procking weaknesses and such.

Pretty much.

Bombs deliver 3 effects: initial damage, splash damage, status (sub grouping between debuffs and persistent damage).

So my homebrew stuff just does one effect with 0 in the other two. Feats and other options that add to those add normally, but the base value is zero. I have the sense that’s overpowered, which is why I haven’t written them up properly. I’m sure Paizo could do better.


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Stuff I've homebrewed that I'd love to see in game:

-More alchemy bullets. I'd love to see an entire research field actually, but more bullets would be a great start.
-Level 0 alchemy items. Like bullets, I imagine level 0 bombs, elixirs, and other items could be created using infused reagents without expending those reagents.


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Kekkres wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
....
so what you are suggesting is that kineticists should be allowed, if they give up their utility, and aoe feats and any real hope of ever taking an archetype, to be granted the option of being a worse fighter with a shortbow and 0 bow feats, am i understanding correctly? this would actually be a somewhat amusing outcome since shortbow fighter out damaged a focused blaster kineticist at all levels post like... 3 in pf1 too

Not quite. What Sanity is proposing is a kineticist build that allows you to be slightly worse than a fighter with a shortbow that has sunk all or nearly all of their feats into an archery build. Or I suppose simply an equal number of feats. That a fighter would be able to pick up more archery feats might help ensure they stay on top if they really want to.

Which seems reasonable enough to me. Granted, I've been arguing for the same, so perhaps I'm biased.

Edit: and speaking of bias, I actually like the design of splash on the alchemist. Dealing chip damage doesn't bother me a bit; it is actually somewhat preferable for me to be constantly chipping instead of occasionally wtfpwn critting and whiffing a fair amount (this is likely related to ADHD, so I'm really, truly, not lying when I say that). And the fact is, dealing at least chip damage on a miss is the easiest way to simultaneously address both the Solo Boss issue all offstat martials face, as well as yanking up the average damage while not increasing the top end damage.


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Regarding role play of spirits, what keeps popping into my head is a thread a former Paizo employee wrote, where she described living with her Maine Coon as (I’m paraphrasing) “living with a house lynx that is hardcore into a schedule that I’m not allowed to see but expected to keep.
“The schedule changes every day, but his indignation that I don’t follow it remains”

I feel like that is spirits should be roleplayed. Somewhat incomprehensible even as you interact with them constantly and revolve your life around them.


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Blake's Tiger wrote:
pactbinders (divine), mediums (occult), etc.

A minor quibble, but depending on what you mean by pactbinder, I would favor Occult for that. Some of those entities are well beyond mortal comprehension, and the flavor of the 3.5 binder class was a fair bit about syncritic and schema magic.

And Mediums are suggested in Secrets of Magic to be Divine. Which I didn't get at first, but on greater reflection made more sense to me. There's a number of different kinds of spirits, but the primary ones Mediums and their archetypes drew on are: undead, fiends, and kami, all of which have divine abilities.


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Oh they absolutely would be. "Usually linked to rural or nomadic cultures" doesn't preclude other options. In fact the Society skill option I imagined as primarily urban.

And, in fact, "nomadic" does not preclude urban settings. How many people move from apartment to apartment, neighborhood to neighborhood, city to city? Even on Golarian.


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So, my thoughts (and remember my preference is towards literary, trope heavy Shamans, not actual historical or current practices):

-I'd prefer Primal, spontaneous caster. Shamanism is usually linked to rural or nomadic cultures, with the necessary interdependence with nature that implies. Note, not "reverence", but interdependence. But if Divine is needed for flavor or balance reasons, I'd like for them to be able to dip into primarily into primal for their off-list spells.

-The flavor of the class would be tied to spirits teaching shamans their spells. Not a single patron like witches, but multiple minor spirits that the shaman entreated with over time. Roleplay opportunity for seeking out uncommon spirits for uncommon spells.

-Additionally, daily you'd prepare your allotment of cantrips by bargaining with particular spirits during your preparations. Probably also be able to get access to other spells, though I'm not certain if my suggestion for picking signature spells is the way to go, or if this could be the first class that natively uses flexible spellcasting. I admit, that last seems like an intriguing way to express that transactional flavor that Michael described. Since you chose spells and their levels each day, it would provide an easy path towards simply not preparing all of your slots in order to gain bonuses.
That it would carry notes of the 3.5 Spirit Shaman class is a bonus, but not really necessary.

-As far as what powers would be available, there's a couple options.
--You pick a "spirit guide" at 1st level that favors a certain suite of abilities. The exact power of those abilities depends on the level of the slot you sacrifice. The guide would like also give you a skill based focus cantrip (something like Inspire Heroics as a cantrip) as a baseline ability.
--Free for all: you just pick up whatever ones appeal to you, paying the cost in known spells.
---My initial thought would be these abilities would be a mix of focus powers and focus cantrips, but other possibilities like bonus proficiencies and skill feats might work as well.

-If the spirit guide option is chosen, this would be the easiest way to add off-list spells into a shaman's spells known.

But all that is mechanics. The class fantasy would be, as I said, a member of a nomadic or rural culture, with each individual shaman finding their own preferred way to navigate their relationships with spirits rather than a more formal set of anathema or edicts. This would also be reflected by their choice of skill cantrip.

There are shamans that use whistles or dances to control their power, make a deep study of Survivalism, Naturalism, or Medicine, or use honeyed lies, an intimidating personality, or a more diplomatic approach to spirit interactions. This could be their "subclass" if the spirit guide doesn't work for whatever reason (though much less than most subclasses get, so more of a methodology or druid order than, say, a deity or bloodline). This would also be a good spot to introduce actual shamanistic practices. Could be as little as a single line of flavor in each skill ("favored by rural practitioners in Old Raztlan, these shaman recite semi-historical narratives, as well as local legends of people that may well have never existed, to call up the power of hero-saints of ages past." for Society, for example)

Have to go to a party, but I'll expand on this thought tomorrow.


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Here you go

Thread was “What do you feel about 2e guns”


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Or another idea I had in a similar thread: what if your signature spells could be modified daily based on spirits you encountered and brokered with? Still uses 90% of the same mechanic, but lends itself more to the fantasy of dealing with a host of individual spirits.


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For me, it’s not so much the representation as the fetishization. It’s…really weird to see people eager to put on my world view as a costume. The closer it hews to reality, the worse that feeling gets.

I will not soon forget how I felt when my English teacher explained Magical Realism. I blurted out, “There’s a word for that?”
“Oh, have you read examples of it?”
“No. I live it.” Because what people call magical realism is in several respects just how I was taught to see and interact with the world.

But trust me, I get what you mean regarding representation. Something I frequently reference is that I watched 3 seasons of Teen Wolf almost entirely because they put someone as dark as me on the billboard.

So I’m certainly not claiming that my reaction is the only one that should count, nor do I assume I’m speaking for anyone but myself. I do trust you to be respectful and thoughtful, but I thought I’d offer my contrarian view that I have despite believing you’d be the best person to pull this off of anyone can. And it’s possible I simply can’t be satisfied, and something that doesn’t even try to get it right will ultimately bother me less than something that does but creeps me out.

Edit: A further thought regarding representation is that even that has multiple (and mutually) conflicting camps. Compare, for instance, what Junot Diaz has to say regarding writing women characters versus Geena Davis. I don’t think either are wrong, but I know which part of that divide I come down on.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

I really dislike the alchemist bomb feat chains. Math fixers for damage like Calculated Splash are the least interesting options and basically feel like feat taxes. I feel the same way about Agonizing Blast in 5e.

If they want to make feats to enhance single target attacking, I'd prefer they build the damage enhancers into the class features and follow the fighter model instead of alchemist: give new actions and riders instead of raw numbers.

I meant that there exists a clear set of feats to take if you want to focus on bomb damage, and enough of them that you can spend most of your feats doing that, not necessarily the implementation of those feats.

I agree that more actions would be the way to go, not math fixers. I'm thinking something along the lines of Fire Ray as an overload feat (though applicable to all elements).


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Unicore wrote:


I think the idea that the Kineticist has to be the best at blasts in order for a character to be martially dedicated to using blasts as the entire focus of their character is going to incredibly limit what else the class can do, and feels very unnecessary since we already have that class designed.

Except that the designers wrote blasts to explicitly exclude them from the fighters proficiency bump and feats to the extent that they could. If we assume the rest of the design is intentional and will continue, why not that?

I also don’t see how having a feat “Chain” like the alchemist bomber feats really takes away from the core gameplay. We’re talking like 5 feats, all of which would also help with solo bosses (which you also acknowledge is something to be addressed). As I said before, I don’t think the core of the classes balancing should be shifted towards STB, but some feats (and rebalancing of blasts to get bigger baseline die) would be enough to at least placate people and provide a baseline for later classes or archetypes.

Edit: and no the psychic does not do that, as they have slots. That’s The killer for every other similar option.

Further edit: something I said in the beginning but is relevant again, that so many feats and abilities are multi effect actions might not necessarily mean they don’t plan simpler effect actions for the final version. Those ones are closer to existing focus spells and martial feats, so no real need to playtest those. Especially if what you really want to focus attention on is those multi effect, terrain, and AOE playstyles.


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Depending on GM interpretation, I got decent mileage out of the Thaum MC feat. The turn is if blasts get the bonus from Glimpse as if they were unarmed strikes. I think they should be, but hopefully tgat is explicitly allowed in the live version of the ability.


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I agree with most of what you're saying here (and recognize that a lot of it is built up frustration), but to answer your final paragraph, no. Being able to perform one trick is not the gameplay fantasy. Being able to be a competent magical blaster, with several effects that all do a high amount of damage and a small amount of utility, is.

There's a lot of people that played mage characters in video games (the most obvious of course being Mages in world of warcraft), or played warlocks in any edition they've appeared in, or played almost any class in 4e, that want to see that kind of character in PF2. It doesn't have to be the kineticist, but because kineticists are also "all day casters" which form part of that gameplay style, it is somewhat understandable that people would look for it there.

All that said, for myself, I'm fine with kineticists staying as they are and fighters being able to cheese out a way to be more accurate with blasts. But if we don't get a single target suite of feats, something along the lines of how you can take 6 or 7 feats to get pretty good at bombing with an alchemist, then I would want to see another class take up that mantle. Could be Ninjas, could be something entirely new, the point would be to enable that fantasy.

Edit: Or, failing an entirely new class, it occurs to me that a class archetype on the Gunslinger which allows it to use blasts as if they were firearms might work (and making gather element a reload action). I'd have to take a closer look at gunslinger feats, as this is a wild thought, but the mental image of misfires on your gathered element actually helps sell the fantasy to me.


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Temperans wrote:
I wouldn't say that making elemental blast a completely unique proficiency would be complicated. Not more complicated than having a weird it is a thing but is not a thing, but it changes when you multiclass but is it still a thing.

Actually, yes it is. You're not thinking about how this will need its own proficiency levels, meaning the class would have a Class DC, Weapon Proficiency, Armor Proficiency, AND now Blast proficiency with its own ranks and levels to consider. Not to mention all the skills. Plus now you're doing to need to get the damage back that is currently passively increased by handwraps and any other bonuses that unarmed attacks get.

if it genuinely added to the classes gameplay, that'd be one thing, but worrying about a cheese build that requires two different archetypes?

I think they'll be okay.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
[...Actually, even that is probably unnecessary. I forgot for a moment that "unarmed" is a weapon category, not a weapon group. Since blasts don't have a weapon group, Fighters can't select them for increased proficiency.

Correction, I guess the way Martial Artist is worded Fighters and Gunslingers would be able to cheese out the higher proficiency.

Of course, by then they’ve invested 4 feats to this build, or are using Free Archetype and have invested 2.

So it’s kind of whatever. I don’t think it’s worth creating an overly complex mechanic just to circumvent a four feat investment to get an action that still won’t work with the majority of their feats or class abilities.


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Temperans wrote:

The solution being making so that they don't use the regular spellcasting proficiency, and instead use a unique proficiency.

The same solution that would stop Fighter from being better at it than Kineticist.

Nah. I disgree with YuriP about much of his post, but I'm in agreement that introducing new mechanics that don't really cover new ground is not a good use of page space (I simply disagree that impulses would qualify).

Easiest way to stop fighters from being better at Blasting is to say that Blasts count as an advanced weapon unarmed weapon if picked up via the MC feat. That's where they ought to be anyways (assuming Pronate's guide is accurate, and it seems to be). Then fighters are no better with blasts than kineticists, and most other martials are 1 step worse.

...Actually, even that is probably unnecessary. I forgot for a moment that "unarmed" is a weapon category, not a weapon group. Since blasts don't have a weapon group, Fighters can't select them for increased proficiency.

Zero the Nothing wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Elemental Blast could become a Stance.
That would be terrible as stances can only be used in combat and are a constant action tax for each encounter.

Simple enough to give Kineticists a new Exploration activity "Gather: You start combat with a chosen element already gathered. As this also allows you to be more keenly aware of your natural surroundings, you can use Nature as your initiative roll."

...Actually I kind of want that anyways now.


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Guntermench wrote:
Earth already gets a feat to scale up to a d12 one handed...

At level 18. I'm thinking more like level 4 or 6. Make it a stance where you are only able to make blasts; any other impulse drops you out of the stance and returns you to normal damage die, although you can always take an action to reenter the stance.

On a meta/balance level, this would be taking an action to Change Your Grip to improve your blasts damage.


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Pulling this from a different thread.

graystone wrote:
I think 'champions of domains' makes more sense. So instead of a specific champion of nethys, pick one of the domains [Destruction, Glyph, Knowledge, Magic, Protection] so if you worship nethys you might be a destruction champion or a magic champion. Or a turnip god for a toil champion or a nature or earth one. To me it makes more sense to focus on a particular aspect of a god.

THIS is the kind of thing I meant when I asked for narrative roles. Because, bottom line, Clerics and Champions are their deity's agents on Golarian, and Thaums and Rangers have monster hunter down pat, but someone that advocates for a domain, possibly over and above an individual god that provides that domain (or has no god at all), that I could see needing a new class to enable.

Sorry, the rest of this post is going to be brainstorming as I try to imagine what this kind of class might look like.

Spoiler:
Let's see. Empowered by a single facet of divine magic, Advocates are less concerned with the whims of an individual deity than they are of the major aspects of life and the world that the deity represents. As they are less bound to their deities than a cleric or champion, with many Advocates having no patron deity at all, Advocates are often able to more directly address mortal concerns that relate to their sphere of interest. And, if necessary, Advocates are able to use words, actions, and arms to fight to promote that interest.

Or something along those lines.

Thinking: Martial proficiency, with the skilled martial chassis (d8, 6 skills, legendary perception). Physical key ability score. No better than medium armor, and more likely light armor. Spontaneous divine bound casting feels right to me, but honestly it could go either way.

Main subclass is their focus domain, all of which will need to be expanded slightly. You chose one domain at 1st, and you get the domain initiate or acumen feat. You'd also get a skill, bonus skill feats every 4th level that have to be picked from that skill's pool, and a bonus cantrip. At 7th level, you'd also get a bonus signature spell (or 2) according to your chosen domain; these need not be restricted to the divine list.

Not sure what other abilities they'd get; probably something knowledge or investigative related. Free skill bumps perhaps. Class feats would be general fighting feats, but also at least 3 for each skill that requires having a domain that grants that skill, or legendary in that skill. Ideally, these would all be group and team related. Not simply allowing the party to get improved rolls on their checks (that's far too easy), but unique reactions and in combat actions that your entire party can employ as long as you are there providing it.

-
Kind of rough as this is all off the top of my head, but I could see how this class could encompass a Creation focused Advocate that honors Casandalee, a Healing advocate sworn to the Laws of Mortality, an animist that is more concerned with Nature (turnips specifically) than any church, and even the more traditional Tyrannical Inquisitor of Asmodeus.


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There I have to disagree.

I would gladly take a less interesting blast if it meant an accuracy or damage boost. It already essentially is an Advanced weapon that hits as accurately as an off key martial, and so balanced accordingly. Dropping a trait or three in exchange for more power in the dice or roll seems like a fair trade to me, and would synergize well with the class’s other abilities. Given the surfeit of AOE impulses, letting blasts be your single target ability and your other impulses cover multi-target (with of course the current feats that let you turn your blast into a multi-target), with the ability to specialize in either direction, seems like a more interesting design direction for my taste.

Squiggit wrote:
Siloing everything on Con and a single proficiency that scales at an accelerated rate would be a massive accuracy boost.

Oh, certainly. Like I said, fighter accuracy plus full caster DC, even as hemmed in as the designers could make it, is not in the cards.


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Unicore wrote:

Adding “class proficiency” as something that is going to be different tan a weapon proficiency, and be something different than class DC (because runes will apply to it) feels like a lot of needless complexity and is probably the same reason we don’t have item bonuses to spell attack rolls, so that spell DC and spell attack are just a “add 10” situation.

I think moving blasts to something more spell like would be more like to see items removed from the equation entirely so all the damage would be tied up in the spell-like feature. I think this is unlikely to accomplish what Verzen is hoping for and make blasts less dynamically interesting because everything would need to be tied up in blast ability itself instead of working with all the features in the game that modify and individualize weapons.

Not sure why you’d assume runes will apply general to all spell attacks. It makes it a little difficult to discuss this when you keep jumping to conclusions.

He and I have both specified that they would apply only to blasts, which indeed is something you can specify as part of that blast ability, much as the ability currently says it uses unarmed proficiency, penalties, and bonuses. Wouldn’t be a difficult or overly complex revision of that one line.

Not that it needs to happen, as I already agreed with you that it was OP and so unlikely to happen.


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Gaulin wrote:
Maybe this isn't the best place to bring it up but I would like almost the opposite of what most are bringing up - more universal options for elements. Keep what makes elements unique, of course, but I would like universal overflow abilities, mostly for damage. I don't think it's really fair that water has an awesome 1st level blasting ability while others don't. Give a tidal hands esque universal overflow, and water something more unique. There's really no reason only water should have a cone based damage ability early on, while others don't.

Actually I agree. I even think this and my desire can dovetail; there’s no need for bleed over of effects if there was a few more universal options. And you’re right that high damage options, which by necessity can’t have all the complex effects of most overflow impulses (or really even any strong rider effects if you’re also going to have budget for raw numbers), would be good ones to focus on for universal abilities.


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Temperans wrote:

Inquisitor is nothing like a Thaumaturge outside the monster knowledge and bonus damage.

I really do not think that class would fit as just an archetype of Thaumaturge, specially given how Inquisitor is supposed to have access to spells and a bunch of other abilities that a Thaumaturge wouldn't have.

And access to multiple spell traditions at full strength (via scrolls), and the correct martial proficiencies, and a decent amount of skills, and several of the other judgements Inquisitors had.

Can’t get all of that on 1 character, which is why I suggest a class archetype, but there is a bit more to the Thaum than just a damage buff.


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Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Okay, but I ask again: What makes this a bad thing to have? You're not stepping on Fighter's toes...
I don’t want to repeat my post from earlier, but Darksol, I answered this question in that post. Boosting the accuracy per this suggestion, going from expert to Legendary is going reduce how much damage the impulses can do on successful saves, what riders can be applied on successful saves and reduce both on what can happen on critical failures as well. The end result will be the same average damage, but less awesome things when the enemy crit fails, and less debuffing on a success.

I think there can be a way to satisfactorily offer single target damage and accuracy on at least certain parts of the class, and blasts seem to be a way to do that. Maybe allow dedicated gates an option to sacrifice their multitarget traits for higher damage or an accuracy boost? Like, say, Fire optionally loses agile but now is 1d8 or 1d10? It would give Flexible blasts a niche for Fire and Air dedicated gates and diversify builds (enabling a str air kineticist for example).

This might require creative tinkering, but I think it can be done without unbalancing the whole class.


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Since it seems to be a popular topic at the moment, and as this one is a bit under 6 months, old, I'm going to necro it.

There's also another thread with on the same topic.

For me, I stand by my first comment:

AnimatedPaper wrote:
Honestly I just want a class archetype for the thaumaturge. Give them only 1 implement, chosen according to their deity, and then wave casting to make up for the other two implements, and I’d be fairly satisfied.

Although I'd probably want two implements now. But the designers can balance that out.

I've also said you might be able to get there with an investigator methodology, and I do want that too, but I think now Thaums will get you closer. Probably only going to be a pathfinder infinite product now though.

Further, I kind of don't see a narrative space for the inquisitor at the moment. Mechanical, sure, a proper divine offensive martial is lacking, but narratively I think a lot of "agent empowered by your deity to solve problems and occasionally use a big stick" could be handled by a smite focused warpriest and divine Thaums. And while I asked for a C. Archetype, that's not really needed; esoterica can be reflavored to be sacred items that specifically inflict a weakness to your deity's (and thus your) attacks.

But that just means we need a bigger (or smaller, more focused) narrative space to build a class around. What might that look like?


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

We need more divine classes that don't answer to a specific God though. Clerics and Champions are already bound to a God, and we're not likely to get two divine gishes, so I'd prefer to be able to play one that's like "An Animist" or "A Pantheist" or "A Henotheist" or "A Panentheist."

Like I played a lot of Paladins in 1e and I didn't play a single one who had more than a casual relationship with a God. I have so many ideas for characters like this and I don't really love playing casters.

I feel like part of the way to answer, "What if divine power but no god?" (at least speaking of animism...) is to establish deity statblocks for fonts of divine power that don't come from a particular entity. No reason a notional Shinto priest couldn't still be a Cleric. This would mean you could just as readily play champions of the same faiths if you saw fit, plus whatever comes of the Divine wave caster design space.

We already have several of these, plus pantheistic deity stat blocks, plus 3 all-up classes that directly support characters who have divine magic from more esoteric sources. No reason more can't be made to cover stuff not yet done, such as Shamanism and Atheism (separate from the Laws of Mortality, which again we have).


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The undead eidolon. I also consider deities (which determine your off list spells, your bonus spells, your focus spells, and additional skills) to be cleric subclasses, and we’ve gotten a fir number of those.

Actually that might be relevant to the current discussion; I would appreciate it if inquisitors likewise used the deity entries.


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keftiu wrote:
God, I loved the 4e Assassin. The Shadow power source deserved better than it got.

Agreed. Overall, 4e wasn’t my jam, but there were a ton of individual pieces I’m fond of even now, and the shadow power source was one of them.

Actually the entire power source concept in general, but that one in particular.


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Well, there's the kineticist for that. In fact, they have several of the abilities you list.

2 things though: one, I'm a little confused on how you will square "elemental philosophy" but explicitly not want elemental magic as it is presented in PF2. Like this:

CorvusMask wrote:
Now the whole elemental wizard magic thing and animal summons? Cool, but honestly not very ninja. Well elemental stuff I mean, admittedly animals messengers and spies work for ninja. I do consider "ability to summon animal minions" nice bonus, but optional and even then you'd only need access to mundane animal summons, maybe I can accept giant versions though. But yeah the elemental power things? Not really fitting for whole stealth assassination thing when you throw fireballs, ninja would use fire to set up distraction not use flamethrower to mow down enemies.

But leaving that aside, item two, Primal magic specifically has access to shadow spells. Not a lot, but a few. So something that drills down into primal darkness and other shadow spells, along with any access they have to the negative energy plane (which is generally accessed via the shadow plane), would offer an interesting contrast to typical primal magic users, who are primarily linked to the shadow plane's opposite, the First World.

And now having typed all that, I again want shadow plane impulses. Also Ethereal plane impulses with all the force effects that implies.

Hmm. Maybe what I really want is just another impulse class, specically that "Screw You in Particular" impulse class I talked about in another thread, and a ninja might be a way for me to get it.


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Teeing off some of the Inquisitor chatter in another thread, I kind of see the Ninja occupying a similar niche: that of a rogue-gish instead of a fighter-gish.

That is, there's definitely mechanical room for a class that spend some of its budget getting more out of skills rather than hitting things very hard, in addition to either wave or focus casting. Though my preference would be towards wave, I'm not insistent.

The closest I've gotten to where I'm happy with a "ninja" in 2e has been an Eldritch Trickster that used Shadowcaster as his free archetype. The combination of all that shadow magic and high skill ability fulfilled the fantasy for me, so if a ninja class was printed I would hope it would be built something along those lines. Obviously not as powerful as a base class + archetype, but tapping into the shadow place as a power source seems thematically appropriate and enabling characters that had in other games been a 3.5 beguiler, 4e assassin, or even just a vampire.

CorvusMask wrote:
I don't know if its obvious, but my preferred ninja flavor is "so good at something they are basically supernatural" rather than straight up magic arts.

I could see something like this. Cantrips that provide level appropriate approximations of high level skill feats seem possible. And I say "cantrips" but non-overflow impulses would do the trick as well.


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I’m not sure how you’d do that without revising the fighter class. If its just a matter of feats, Marshall is right there, along with free archetype.

The appeal of a dedicated class is getting 4–8 Marshall abilities baked into the class chassis, letting you do new stuff with your aura.


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Ly'ualdre wrote:
BONUS - Petitioners. For a while, I've had this desire to see them made playable. The Heritage system makes it immediately possible to take the base Ancestry and have one choose from the plethora of planar souls living through their afterlife. Each of the Elemental Planes have an Elemental Pneuma. They could make for some pretty interesting storytelling. .

I like this idea.


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I was thinking a Tian deity, but that's not a bad idea Sanity.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:
I'll just point out that it's not like Ranger can't already be flying every fight starting at level 7 with the APG.
???

Animal Feature focus spell is what they mean, I think.


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So, a long time ago, I listed what I was looking for in a slotless caster, potentially with 1 class focusing on each:

1. Blasting
2. Terrain Control
3. Restoration and Buffs
4. Debuffs

When I made that post, I 100% assumed blasting would be covered by the kineticist when we got it. So it is with some mild surprise to realize that of the 4, the only one Kineticists can't specialize in is blasting, as all but like 3 impulses are multitarget, and most of their damage effects have riders that make them one of the other 3 options, and often stronger at those.

So, since its possible Kineticists won't be the blaster of many of our fantasies, I think another class might fill the gap.

Utilizing Impulses (but NOT overflow), this class trades the kineticist's focus on AoE options for options that are basically "Screw YOU in particular." Blasting, curses, poisons, debuffs galore, almost all single target and so budgeted accordingly. Probably on a caster chassis so as to better utilize the 4 degrees of success.

I want to try and use: my idea about Fortune/Misfortune effects, a blaster/debuff/buff focus, and access to Void, Aethereal, and Positive energy plane. I have a half-baked idea to make it Dream focused, with your dream alignment being towards Nightmares, Prophecy, and Fantasy.


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Desert Shimmer is pretty decent utility. Imposing even a DC 5 flat check on all strikes is pretty useful, and the ability to hide yourself in your own aura has possibilities.

But yeah, other than that. Though I'm reminded of the Jason Mendoza line from The Good Place: "But I'm telling you, Molotov cocktails work. Anytime I had a problem and I threw a Molotov cocktail, boom! Right away, I had a different problem."

I had intended my playtest skeleton to be LN, but he's clearly a chaos gremlin.


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Very true! I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I'm simply hopeful that this book does give Nature and Arcane elemental related skill feats (I'd be surprised if they don't, but I've been surprised before).


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Unicore wrote:

Right now, the playtest features a lot of narrative driving class features that are interesting, but a little confusing about how to arbitrate in play. I would love for the nature skill to see more use in this class and be tied to using elements to accomplish tasks beyond attacking. Trying to tie the class to a whole bunch of skill usage will make it too MAD and complicated, but giving the class a reason to focus on Nature as a skill feels like a good way to address the lack of skill based interactions with the class.

Like using 2 actions to adapt element fire to intimidate with the nature skill could be pretty cool.

Agreed. They have the standard amount of skill points; I would prefer more ways to use Nature instead of additional skills.

Taking a quick glance over the nature skill feats, I notice none, not even Consult the Spirits, gives you any particular influence over Elementals (though I suppose Train Animal might sort of do so). Seems like a pretty good gap for this book in particular to address, and giving this class early or free access to potential skill feats might work as well.

Let me train a Cinder Rat to dance on command!


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I like that you can further differentiate your character by either going all in on overflow or avoiding it like the plague.

While clunky, I think the overflow mechanic is interesting to play with.


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Guntermench wrote:
Elemental Weapon wrote:
It can also be used for Elemental Blasts or standard Strikes (provided they’re melee blasts or Strikes if you choose a melee weapon or ranged blasts or Strikes if you choose a ranged weapon).
I think this is what they meant by you lose ranged. You can use it for Impulses that are not Blasts, but you can't use it for ranged Blasts if you picked a melee weapon.

Yep, just saw that and was coming to correct my post. That did seem too good to be true.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
So, with focus spells like cackle, lingering composition, extend boost, amped guidance, and amped warp step, it seems like one focus spell is about equal to one action. So, assuming an impulse takes one more action to use (either through overflow or just having a more action activity) it should be roughly balanced for impulses and focus spells to have an equal effect. At most, impulses could be considered a bit more versatile than the example focus spells, and impulses would have to be slightly weaker than focus spells.
That's a veeeeery limited list of focus spells there. Tons of focus spells take 2 actions, especially the big offensive ones.
Yes, but those where the ones that more or less directly traded a focus point for an action. that was my point. so a 3 action impulse should be about equal to a 2 action focus spell, becouse one focus point is about equal to an action
I don't think that tracks. Focus cantrips do not follow the same rules as other focus spells, where most cost a focus point in addition to one or more actions.

But focus cantrips cost only those actions. If you're saying overflow abilities should be equivalent to focus cantrips in power, due to also only costing actions, then I'd want to see them be 1 action better than a focus cantrip of the same power, due to the inherent 1 action penalty of regathering your Element.

Non-overflow impulse actions, those I would agree should be roughly equivalent to a focus cantrip of the same action cost, as I do not think the gather penalty fully applies to those.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
Sure but then you can't make ranged attacks unless you throw away your melee weapon.

I think, since they rarely come into the playtest to explain how things should work and to clarify things that are confusing, the best thing to do is to run the class the way to imagine it should work.

Since I don't think a ranged blast with your elemental weapon out makes you lose that weapon any more than doing a ranged blast with normal gathering makes you lose the element you gathered. Elemental Blast is not an overflow ability, so you're just emitting a fire burst from your fire sword, or whatever.

I think Graystone (and please correct me if I am wrong) meant that a ranged strike with an elemental melee weapon would result in a gather thrown away. As far as ranged blasts, my reading of that feat is the same as yours.

Which...hmmm. I didn't consider that dynamic; that feat might be more interesting than I'd given it credit for.

I misread, disregard. No ranged attacks at all if you have a melee weapon.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, what you are supposed to do against a single enemy is probably "your basic blast". Which does about as much damage as a normal weapon, which works for other people. You just don't have a lot of ways to improve your basic blast.

Yup. Give me Fire Ray or Force Bolt as an overflow ability, and I'd be happier.

But like I said upthread, there's no real need to playtest single target focus spells; that data they have. This other thing they're doing with aoe effects that have 1-3 riders attached, that probably needs more play data.

As well as the basic gather-overflow cycle. I know you prefer not to engage with it, but I'm kind of enjoying it.


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Martialmasters wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
If they were to become focus spells I don't see the reason for overflow to exist if I'm honest.

Yes, you’d want one or the other, as both serve the same purpose. And for the purpose of this class, I’d rather keep overflow/gather.

But that’s kind of my point. You keep saying there needs to be a limiter, but that limiter already exists. These abilities are simply tuned a bit under wear they need to be. Pure damage overflow abilities, where all the power budget is in dice instead of terrain and control effects, would help a lot of players. Even better if they are single target. Boring, sure, sometimes boring is okay if it enables the class fantasy.

And not something they’d need to playtest; boring no frills abilities are the easiest thing to balance.

I agree the power of current overflow abilities can be brought up. But not up to your level of focus spells until they themselves become focus spells.

They can be straight-up word for word copies of existing focus spells, and the overflow trait would still ensure that they were not as powerful as focus spells. In fact, they could across the board be more powerful, and that action penalty would still keep things balanced.

This is really not as much of an issue as you're assuming. Though, on reflection, I could imagine a focus spell that allowed you to gather element as a free action. That's in line with several focus spells we already have, and would maintain the integrity of most of the class's balancing while allowing for a more fluid playstyle.

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