Oh, yeah we NEED to see the response from Rahadoum about this.
...now I'm wondering, how would that philosophy react to people who are like "yeah I recognize that my god is dead, but I'm still acting in accordance with his teachings"? Because on the one hand, that's subordinating your will to divine whims without even potential bribery of magic; but on the OTHER hand, that's choosing something of your own free mortal will, and the god's not around to DIRECT you to do anything any more.
I predict it'll be resolved as a political issue, more than a philosophical one; since it could go either way, the deciding factor would be "are these people particularly annoying, or are these people valuable allies". (And if they end up NOT widespread interacting with them, then it'd be a case-by-case basis.)
I just had a thought, that there's going to be a popular story going around Rahadoum; one person's saying something like "I don't think the gods are worthy of worship", another person says "may [deity most associated with political enemies at the time of the telling] smite you for that", and then the second person gets smacked by a piece of Gorum's armour. It just seems like the kind of urban legend that gets passed around; something that validates the views of the audience, and makes their opponents look foolish.
I think that they'd welcome former Gorumites, so long as they don't excuse or express love for their dead god, those seeking guidance. The Pure Legion can use that talent. However, I'd say they would find no excuse for those who still carry Gorum's will. It would be seen as the height of hubris. The god *died*, and it was a god who was always a god, not a former mortal-turned-god! What greater proof is there for the fallibility of the divine than for them to do the one thing that should set them aside from mortals? At that point, the only difference is power, and a mortal who abuses power is a tyrant, and so they must be treated the same: with rebellion and eventual overthrowing of their unjust power structure.
That is at least one argument the Rahadoumi philosophers could throw their way. They'll be smart about it, but they will never compromise on the absoluteness of the Laws. That being said, I could absolutely see them appropriating pieces of Gorum's might for their own purposes. This is not submission to the divine, but wholesale inheritance of the power they abused wrongly for the good of mortalkind. It could even be seen as a manifest destiny: the gods fed on the faith of mortals, now they must pay for their parasitism with the bounty housed in their being. This is the only way a god can repay for their role in an unjust cosmic system.
I just wonder if this will stoke imperial ambitions in their hearts. The world is reeling. Rahadoum, being divorced of all deific influence, is in a really good position to do a landgrab from someone. Perhaps they'll swarm western Cheliax?
I only wish there were more undead options for summoners. There was such a wide variety of phantoms for spiritualists that it feels like a shameful loss of flavors between the cracks.
I am more interested in the reprecussions of his death than the how or why. The War of Immortals itself will be a majorly destabilizing event, it seems.
For the clergy of Gorum, there is the obvious disempowerment. Their god is dead. He is no longer a font of divine power. However, his death is different from that of Aroden, and true Gorumites are not self-pitying weakling cowards who wallow in resentment and cheated destiny! They would bathe in the Godsrain, take up Gorum's power and metal for themselves, and continue the fight. Gorum lived for the spirit of battle. He taught his followers to relish combat, to never mind the fallen, to live in that moment. Gorum's clergy will likely go from religious organization to an agnostic philosophy focused on self-idealization through trials of combat and war. Some might seek to reforge him, but that's likely to be an eternal struggle in its own right, another war to wage for the sake of the fight. Whether they succeed or not, it is as good a reason to battle as any.
As for the rest of the Inner Sea, I think the War of Immortals, if it spills onto the material, will have interesting results. If it is as huge as it portends to be, I bet the popularity of the Laws of Man from Rahadoum will start to rise as people have witnessed the death of not only a god, but a *very old* one who was there when Rovagug was sealed. That hits at the core of faith in a deity as an eternal cosmic constant. Beyond that, the suffering caused by divine parties in their scrambling for Gorum's portfolio, I bet, will lead to a lot of the conditions that led to Rahadoum's denouncement of religion. Clandestine 'enlightened mortalist' groups invested in reducing the influence of gods and their churches could start to rise up throughout the world... especially once mortals reap the bounty of a dead god's remains for themselves.
This leads to the consequence of the Godsrain itself. Mythic power will now become a resource for countries and their agents to fight over else they risk their rivals gaining incredibly powerful new assets. It'll be a blasphemous arms race, and that isn't even coming close to the heavy involvement of the extraplanar powers looming large over the whole affair.
It will be glorious. Gorum may have died, but he gets the last laugh as the world eulogizes his passing with the greatest wars the world has ever known.
Folca is infamous for being one of the most offensively repugnant fiends in Pathfinder lore, so much so as to actively be buried by its creators and ignored by its player base. I won't be going over why they are (it's pretty bad) and the point of this post is not to bring attention to that. Instead, I feel it is a shame that passed all the unacceptable bits is the hints of a truly compelling supernatural evil that is different from the others. I thus chose to do my own take on the daemon harbinger and expand on them with freshly-baked homebrew lore that I guarantee will make for a good villainous concept to throw at players.
Strangers are just friends you don’t know you have. Now, how about a treat?
Folca The Gaunt Stranger, The Unmet Friend, Mx. Sweets, the Confectioner of Souls, the Snatcher in the Alley
Daemonic Harbinger of sweets, naivety, and abductions
Among the wretched of Abaddon, few are as perplexingly contradictory as Folca. The Gaunt Stranger is a mute, androgynous humanoid with pasty pale skin that stretches with unseen appendages pushing just under its surface, dressed in common dark clothing and carrying a bulging sack filled with unknown, sickly sweet smelling contents.
Folca’s mortal origin is unknown, but it is certain that they are primarily yoked under Trelmarixian, though they came about under his predecessor, Lyutheria. Unlike other daemons, Folca does not aim for death as the final goal. Instead, they seek a form of twisted mercy. Like all daemons, Folca hates themselves and the world, but rather than handle it through bringing oblivion to reality, they instead take a psychological approach. Folca, and those who follow them, indulge deeply in the addictive succor of sugar. They purposefully seek ignorance, to narrow their experiences, and leave only a single, passionate obsession for candy. They ignore suffering and misery and indeed cause it through their apathy and pursuit of the addictive flavor and rush they get from their confections, both mundane and supernatural.
Folca’s role in daemonic society is that of a charitable philanthropist. Their realm, the Succulent Street, is a deep canyon that resembles a meandering alleyway, with a main thoroughfare that is fed by countless alleyways that lead to speakeasies, unholy confectionaries, abattoir basements, factories, and even fields of pungent rotting sugar crop and fruit trees. It borders Urgathoa’s realm and is a common bridge between it and Abaddon. Undead frequent it as much as daemons do, for it is here that a rare delight can be found, for Folca does not simply devours souls, but spins them into magical candies that are capable of bringing joy even to the most depraved fiends. Folca’s supernatural candies are so wickedly delightful they have been known to make daemons smile and weep with joy as though they had finally found something worth existing for. This, however, is a trap, for soon the rush is over and done and the victim of the experience grows just as disillusioned if not even more so with reality, growing increasingly willing to perform evil acts just to afford another taste. Even undead are not immune and indeed Folca counts a large number of undead in their clientele, among which includes the Pallid Princess herself, though she of course is immune to Folca’s total control and indulges freely without repercussion. She is quite fond of them, and often invites them to Bloodrot to feature their latest creations. Folca procures the ingredients for their craft through either donations (which are immediately repaid with finished candies of their making) and abduction (most often of those who would rehabilitate or hurt the willfully ignorant.)
For their part, Folca is placid and quiet, but not uncommunicative. They have a bizarre form of telepathy that manifests as flashing smells and tastes whose meaning can be intuited completely even for those who lack the means to taste or smell. Folca’s very presence can be addictive, caused by the heady psychic fumes emanating from them and their sack, which is always filled to the brim with liquefied soulstuff transmuted to raw spun sugar. Folca’s presence is such that many will simply follow in their wake, and Folca will unwittingly abduct entire towns they pass by, merrily minding their own business as they cause them to vanish, become lost, and eventually starve. Folca will on occasion offer soul candy to the innocent, favoring them as a kindred spirit, and seeking to block their acknowledgment of the outside world. For their part, those who are inexperienced perceive Folca as a friendly-faced stranger that exudes goodness and trustworthiness, whilst more worldly individuals will look on as a freakish monster interacts with the simple-minded innocent as though they were longtime friends, never to know the true ingredients behind the tasty treats they have just accepted. The more horrifying and numerous the truths hidden from those who unknowingly partake of delights there are, the more content Folca will be.
Folca despises those who willfully seek the truth despite how painful it is. They feel an envious resentment of Elysium and its delights, for Folca knows deep down that no amount of sweets can compare to the true happiness of a fulfilling life, a true friendship, or healthy love. They thus prize ingredients from that sacred realm and pay handsomely for those who would give it along with captive azatas and denizens whose spirits they may torment by induction to their own delights. Equally so, Folca loathes Nirvana for its asceticism and comfort, believing them foolish for denying the joy of sugar addiction for other, more wholesome pleasures.
Folca is not a powerful harbinger. Indeed, they are among the weakest in terms of combat ability. Fittingly, they favor enchantment, illusion, and transmutation magic personally and for their followers to trick, coerce, and transform their enemies. Folca’s greatest strength, however, is their popularity, for like a twisted parody of protective elder siblings, the daemons of Abaddon protect the Gaunt Stranger from outside depredation. Their reasons are numerous, be it their desire for them to continue creating their sweets, an understanding of the true and unique flavor of entropy they bring to reality, or simply a desire to earn their favor, Folca is a popular evil.
In times when they find a soul with a unique flavor or have a rare episode of murderous rage (most often induced by an occasional bout of awareness brought about by a foolhardy individual’s arguments), Folca will abduct an individual to harvest their soul, stuffing it into their sack for later use. When truly enraged, Folca will peel away their clothing, revealing an indescribable and maddening sight. The rare few who survive such an event and retain enough sanity to recount it have hypothesized a new origin for Folca: that they are, in fact, a qlippoth lord in hiding, masquerading as a daemon and actively subduing their perception of reality, a reality in which demons still hold dominion over the Abyss and there is no hope of qlippoths ever having their quiet, solitary, sinless universe again. For their part, Folca always responds to any such questions with heartier-than-usual offerings of candy, which if denied will certainly result in the harbinger turning hostile.
Folca actively loathes Norgorber, as the god is fond of using candy as a vector for poisoning. Folca does not seek a quick and painful end for their victims, but a slow, decaying, sedated, diabetic failure. However, Folca is not as powerful as Norgorber and is most often duped by the Reaper of Reputation into gifting poisoned candy to a would-be target. For their part, Folca becomes upset when it happens, then decides it was beyond their ability to stop and in merry obliviousness continues along their way, the sooner the incident is forgotten the better.
Folca’s relationship with the archdaemons is bizarre, as while there is certainly no affection, there is nevertheless a prolific interaction with various. Trelmarixian of course knows how Folca operates and leaves them to their own devices, content that the harbinger reliably has no ambition of overthrowing them and predominantly furthers the power of famine through their methods. Charon recognizes the lifespan reduction caused by Folca’s activities and encourages them by loaning them a few thanadaemons to serve as trade caravans for their product (and making a tidy profit off the proceeds, of course, with Folca demanding nothing in return). Apollyon tolerates Folca, seeing sugar addiction as a mediocre disease but one that serves a purpose all the same. The only archdaemon Folca is at odds with is Szuriel, as her violent mass-murder and warmongering create the very conditions Folca wishes their followers and victims alike to be pleasantly ignorant of. Indeed, few creatures evoke more displeasure in Folca than the Horseman of War, and Folca actively bans her followers from his realm for being ‘party poopers’.
The most insidious yet least evil of Folca’s cults take the form of baking circles that merely think Mx. Sweets to be some sort of patron spirit of their craft. These are Folca’s favorites, and they are jealously protected from the influence of others, with Folca’s blessings to them given as honestly as they would their other, more wicked followers. Darker cults are facilitators, forging alliances with and aiding other evil cults by purposefully keeping people blissfully ignorant of their activities and the miseries of the world, often by peddling inconspicuously addictive substances to do so. Some are hedonistic circles of the most apathetic and petty sort who care for absolutely nothing but their own gratification even as others suffer around them. Still others are truly depraved cannibal chefs seeking to create the ultimate candy out of the remains of their victims. Some undead seek Folca’s blessing to taste the pure joy of innocence never to be truly regained, often ones who resent or regret their condition, thus being spurned by Urgathoa.
Though Folca is not a great mover or shaker by way of ambitious designs or grand master planning, they are a dastardly and insidious spreader of evil, and the line between how much the daemon harbinger is or isn’t aware of the awful consequences of their existence and deeds is brought into constant question, but there is no mistaking that wherever Folca’s touch is felt, oblivion’s decay runs through the bodies, minds, and souls of all those who partake of their blessing, in the dead-end alleys where colorful and friendly strangers peddle their sinister sweets.
The ideological contradictions were always something fascinating for me, especially in a setting where the gods are clear and present in society as a force. It would be necessary for their voices to be muddied and difficult to hear even by devoted clerics, thus causing them to be distorted. This would explain more so than anything why wisdom is the absolute most important stat for divine spellcasters. It's not just about the strength of a connection to a god, being able to make out a god's message would be incredibly important too, and with how vast the cosmos is coupled with gods having to provide to multitudes of followers all at once, the wires are bound to get crossed.
This makes the idea of bumping into a god in a campaign immensely more exciting and tense, as I imagine the "Cultural god X is actually core god Y" might be a secret... in fact, it's possible that what you said is absolutely true, except that the obfuscation is not so much consequential to the worshiper's views but rather a direct result of the gods obfuscating their 'true' nature in order to appeal to a larger group of worshipers. This, of course, gets into the dirtier waters of divinity as it would also mean that alignment makes less and less sense and the individual portfolios of a god would need to expand more and more. It's even possible all gods can, as creators of the universe, use ALL domains, it's just that they refuse to do so outside of a few constrained ones in order to maintain an easily manageable 'canon' for their mortal worshipers to follow. After all, a god should be unlimited, powerful, inconceivably vast, yet time and time again mortals have shown themselves to be easily divided if the barest hint of a differing opinion is shown. This is somewhat hypocritical of the gods, too, given that although they could all empower whatever domains, they still have their own 'individual agenda' (IE Pharasma wants a smooth-running afterlife, Asmodeus wants to enslave and rule, Sarenrae wants to heal and redeem, etc).
It might go even further. Lesser and cultural deities might represent deific alliances wherein two or more gods decide to split the pot on a culture, creating something like a divine shell corporation they puppet. They take bits and pieces of their personal portfolios, splatter some nice (perhaps even contradictory) lore on it, and throw out a few visions to get the ball rolling.
And secrecy of all of this would be enforced by whatever binding contract forbids gods from just jumping in and reworking reality: if any god reveals the truth about what's going on, reality eats itself or another god undoes it or something of the like occurs.
Only thing I maybe don't like about that theory is that it makes all of the gods, no matter what their beliefs, into these sleazy politician archetypes that lie... or perhaps don't lie, since the nature of deities is so out-and-out impossible to truly grasp for the limited mortal mind. It's a real mind****.
I might, for fun, compile a big ol' list of 'parallel' or 'shell' deities. I'll take suggestions.
This is the case with a god like Anubis, who is denoted as being assistant to Pharasma. However, such a role is still somewhat redundant, as beings such as the psychopomp ushers and empyreal lords fulfill these needs for higher powers, being divine 'middle management' of a sort. Lesser gods translating to demigods, however, is another way we can definitely do this, and I'd encourage it because demigods are permitted to have stat blocks and thus can serve as final bosses/major ally NPCs in a campaign without feeling untouchable or ridiculously overwhelming. It could even work that the reason they are a 'pantheon' has less to do with them being of a region and more that these particular demigods have a closer relationship to each other than they do any other and thus just so happened to influence the same concentrated areas, thus why they share a similar visual aesthetic.
That's the basic gist of it, but to elaborate, there are too many redundant gods. I understand the reason for this - you can pick and choose from a kitchen sink of tools to fit the narrative of the story you wish to tell - but for the DM who prefers a more structured cosmic narrative, it can be a massive headache. In essence, the lesser deities that are poorly fleshed out such as the Osirion pantheon, that have very little influence out of their immediate region such as the Tien pantheon, or that completely share a portfolio and alignment with other gods creates a great deal of confusion as to how the world operates on a meta-narrative level.
But I am not here to complain, merely to lay the groundwork for my proposed solution and perhaps discuss it further with others. The answer I came up with is...
Folklore zeitgeists.
Divine magic need not come from a god as has been proven by the Green Faith and other such atheistic philosophies that nevertheless allow tapping into some primal force of reality not through study or innate arcana but merely through a connection with a higher aspect of reality through faith. So it occurred to me that many of these lesser gods are not, in fact, actually real. They are stories, traditions, and folklore that have been given pseudo-presence in the Dimension of Dreams, the Astral Plane, a pocket dimension, or even the Prime Material. They don't have stats. You cannot fight them or destroy them and they cannot interact with the world in any capacity whatsoever save through worshipers, and the only way to rid the world of them is to completely eradicate them from memory along with any record of their existence. Unkillable, capable of granting divine power based on the narrative they were given, yet ultimately impotent to affect reality.
This would also mean that each pantheon could have their own origin story of the universe as how they did it, or would have done it. While this doesn't fool scholars who know the 'true' way things went down, the fact that these beings can do everything a god can short of having a domain with servants and the like would muddy the waters of what is truth, certainly enough to root a devoted following. What's more, the real gods wouldn't have to worry about the occasional shrine here and there. These folklore figures might pluck the occasional worshiper here and there but they can also be very useful gateways to granting the actual gods a convert where there would not have been one before.
And we could go even further. Perhaps the worshipers of regional gods only have divine powers within that region. Once they leave, they are no better than a commoner of their level until they return. This would dissuade the regional gods from being overly expansionist. What's the point? Their narrative is set in stone and they can't provide the magical power to make the conquest viable anyway, and if they overstretch they could invoke the ire of another, larger faith that could be incensed to wipe their memory out of existence. Thus they remain 'lesser' deities, only ever garnering a dedicated following, never proving true competition and underneath it all being content to simply exist thanks to the power of faith.
This, at least, is how I'd be willing to make it work.
The doc does give the mechanics for demoralize's stress damage. It is this line:
Demoralize: Now on top of causing the shaken condition, a successful attempt to demoralize a creature deals an amount of stress damage equal to the character’s Charisma modifier.
On the Lovecraft = Sanity, well, yes, I continue running into that particular cultural consensus. It's less that sanity is defined by Lovecraft inspired entities such as aboleths and the like and more that Lovecraft inspired entities are defined by sanity. People go insane through things other than fear, such as frustration, depression, etc. Fear is just the most likely in a fantasy setting, with constantly facing big scary monsters, deadly traps, etc. Paranoia is a virtue to the average adventurer, to be sure.
When I think 'sanity', I think 'my standard, everyday mindset'. 'My usual tendencies characterized by my personality, history, relations, etc.' A psychopath is insane not because they are acting outside of their personality but because they act outside the societal norm, in a manner that many would deem self-destructive or destructive to others... but they are perfectly sane from *their own* perspective. Things like mind control, stress, memory modification, all that good stuff that ****s with your mindspace is an attack on who you are, what you are, what you know, how you see others, etc. In other words, things that make you by definition 'sane'. The reason Lovecraftian creatures are associated with breaking that sanity is not because they're scary and AAARGH but because the revelation that they exist is an attack on everything we hold to be factual in the world. In a fantasy setting like Golarion where freaky stuff happens all the time... eeeeeeh... they lose a lot of impact, barring the really big ones like the Great Old Ones.
Hope that helps detail my perspective on what constitutes 'sanity'.
EDIT: I've considered how fear spells would deal stress damage, but I can't figure how to translate that into something fair or mechanically balanced. Frightened and panicked are already very potent effects without tossing additional stuff in there. I could have soto voce be the 'stress dealing' cantrip. Hell if it isn't useless otherwise. It'd probably be something pretty low, too. 1d6 is a popular number for a cantrip. For other spell ideas... maybe I can homebrew some additional custom spells. The ones I have are just tip of the iceberg and this is still an in-process work.
I'm not using one hand to hit with the dan bong. I'm using both hands to grapple with the dan bong. I'm gonna say the spirit of the game beats rules lawyering in this situation. Doesn't make sense that a tool that enhances an action in the real world would overall hamper your attempts to do the same thing in a fictional one.
In any case, my question was answered so... thanks for the input.
Skip past this if you don't want to hear the fluff reasons for this question:
I am making a slayer bounty hunter, and the game is starting at level 4. He's got a Dex build, and I've given him Agile Maneuvers to supplement his Dirty Trick attempts. At level 4, I have given him the Underhanded Tricks rogue talent from Blood of Shadows so when he blinds with his dirty trick, the enemy can't undo it the first round after it is done. In these early levels, the tactic for live capture is this:
1) If initiative is won, charge and dirty trick in place of a sneak attack to blind. Otherwise, straight up dirty trick.
2) With a free hand, draw a dan bong for the +2 bonus to grapple checks. Follow up with a grapple check, which thanks to the blinded condition has a great chance of succeeding and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
3) Pin and then tie up. Proceed to apply manacles, iron mask, etc. for apprehension.
I realize that a more effective tactic would be to knock the person out with repeated sneak attacks/dirty trick blinding, but for story reasons my character prefers his captives to be conscious so he doesn't have to physically carry them if he can afford to. Plus, I want to justify that level 5 archetype class feature substitution Submission Hold when it eventually pops up, and grappling is circumstantially useful against spellcasters anyway. I want to be able to have optimized, capable options.
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Ok, so the question. First, this:
Quote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target’s Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
With this in mind, would my weapon attack bonus from Studied Target apply to grapple checks using a dan bong, a weapon that specifically has the grapple quality? Because if so, my bonus to grapple checks would be CMB + 2 from the weapon + studied target bonus, which is really damn good.
I kinda wanted to dust this off a bit as a self-reminder and also to revivify the conversation, see if one year later people have new opinions on the matter.
When I successfully maintain a grapple with Telekinesis, if I want to use the 'attack' action what would my damage be? I'm leaning toward 1d6 + Int/Cha, but there really is nothing to help indicate it. One could argue you can't, but I'd argue you can contort someone's body in very painful ways until you twist them into an unfortunate mess.
I'm guessing for the 'move' grapple action, you can move them 10 feet (half the speed you can move an object under the 'Sustained Force' version of the spell.)
I have been running a horror campaign. The Big "Bad" is a supremely powerful occultist who, due to being cursed with eternal misfortune and reincarnative immortality, cannot find respite. Because Pharasma is the one who cursed him, if he were to simply rid himself of it he is certain to not receive a peaceful afterlife, so he has resolved to use all the cummulative resources and knowledge of his several thousands of years worth of restarts to find a way to erase himself from existence. Not the world, just himself.
To achieve this goal, he wants to access the Akashic Record and ritualistically rewrite himself out of history. How he will reach this place I have already worked out (it is suitably contrived and difficult). However, I am not sure how to portray the record. Is there any book sources that can speak more on the subject? What about the Dimension of Dreams? Any word of advice would be welcomed.
The grappling rules were definitely complicated as written in 3.5. However, I'm not sure that altering it into a standard action rather than making it an attack substitution was for the sake of simplification (or if it was, that it was successful) since trip, sunder, and disarm were also attack substitutions in 3.5 and were kept as such in PF.
Nevertheless, I think I've gotten as good as I'm going to get without a direct developer answer on the reasoning, and I'm thankful for everyone's answers.
Huh, really? I know trip attacks and grapple rules were a thing in the past, though I had forgotten that CMB was actually a recent addition to Pathfinder.
Looking at the old 3.5 SRD, grappling was actually done as a touch attack. So was tripping, for that matter. Bull rush, overrun, and feinting were standard actions.
Knowing this is a step in the right direction. Removing the 'touch attack' condition was good, since everything would always succeed in a grapple check in that scenario unless it had ridiculously high dex, deflection, and/or dodge bonuses to AC.
I can understand bullrush and overrun being standard actions, since they are essentially 'a movement that is also an attack'.
But what about grapple, or feint? Feinting isn't anything more than altering your combat rhythm, or redirecting a blow at the last moment. It wouldn't take more effort than a regular attack, and I've already made the argument for grappling.
I specifically posted it here to challenge the decision as an official rule. Yes, it can easily become a homebrew, there's no debating that. No, they won't change it and I have no arrogant delusions of being able to sway them into doing so, which means the most I can do is glean some understanding.
(As an aside, though, I do thank you for posting about these potential builds. I'd no idea there was actually a cavalier option for this kind of stuff. Interesting stuff.)
Before I go any further, I want to assure that I am not in any way attacking the developers or their creative decisions. Been a player for 5 years and probably will be for many more. Got a lot of respect for the developers, even when I disagree with some creative decisions such as the one this topic is about.
To reiterate, the question I posed was this one: Why aren't all combat maneuvers attack substitutions?
What was the thought process that went behind this decision? Was it simply upholding archaic 3.5 tradition, as Pathfinder has its roots in that system? Is it because of balancing issues? Did there need to be a justification for a host of other feats, such as Rapid Grappler?
I've been attempting to build a character as a grappler for a long time, but every time I do, it's a horribly contrived and difficult road that never pays off soon enough to be fun or useful. There's the maneuver master monk, but it's a very specific archetype.
Got me to thinking, why aren't all combat maneuvers attack substitutions? They all depend on a CMB roll, which is modified by attack bonuses. On the logic side of things, why wouldn't a person trained in grappling and the like be capable of snatching a person's arm when they leave themselves open during a retreat, or a master thief steal a bauble for the same reason? Linking 'standard action' to what is another attack roll puts a squeeze on the variety of things a martial class can do.
What're the community's thoughts on all CMB checks being attack alternatives instead of standard actions? I feel it would help diversify melee combat significantly.
My players are approaching the end of a chapter in my custom campaign. The next leg of the journey is going to take place in a large, irradiated swamp. The players will likely go from level 10 to 13 over the span of this leg of the journey. Undead are a good, big choice, but I want to emphasize more on mutations and other fleshy horrors, so aberrations and mutants of all sorts are more what I'm looking for. I was wondering if the community could suggest some good monsters for this purpose? There's a LOT of them to comb through and I am feeling overwhelmed.
PS: Lovecraftian stuff gets an extra bonus. This is a cosmic horror story.
Seeing as arrowheads are made of metal (well, usually) and bullets are made of lead (both of which are subjected to magnetic forces), does the spell magnetic field make the target effectively immune to ranged attacks from these most common forms of ammunition?
Kurnen Thunderblows (CN old male dwarf cleric of Gorum 14) is the true spiritual side of Hammer of Gorum, a grizzled veteran of over a dozen wars who saw in a vision a far greater service he could do for his god: gifting the world the music of heavy mithral to serenade the warriors in battle and stir their spirits into greater fervor.
Raymond Chandler (LE male middle aged human cult leader warpriest of Norgorber 17) is an influential businessman owning a large trading company based in Agrowan. Unknown to all, he is also the Grand Raptor, the hidden master of the Court of Owls, a secret organization seeking to gain influence and control over Agrowan through the use of well-placed political puppets, assassinations, fear, and information control. Also has a combat theme.
June Khavken (LG female middle aged human battle scout ranger 13) is the bastard daughter of Father Jhod Kavken. Recognized before her father passed away, Father Jhod endured the scandal of his indiscretion and raised her. She has survived more forays into the Hooktongue Blight than any other member of the Deadeye Compact, and it is only through grim perseverance that she has not gone mad from the grief of all the friends she has lost to its evil.
Ethan Farrenal (NG middle aged male human lycanthrope cleric of Ewan 10) is one of the many children of Ewan Farrenal, one of the founders of Agrowan who would grow to become patron god of redeemed werefolk through ascension via the Starstone Trial. Much more tempered than the rest of his brothers and sisters both in blood and faith, Ethan wants nothing more than to see his father's nation heal and grow prosperous with unity and tolerance for all. Yet, in times of danger, he has never hesitated to bare his fangs in defense of those same goals.
Got some more for you guys, this time for the factional leaders of Agrowan.
Chairman Mistra Fol (LN female android tech slinger 9) is an envoy of the new Black Sovereign in Numeria to Agrowan to oversee the industrialization and education efforts via the Agrowan Institute of Technology. Despises magic, seeing it as an obstacle for the true future of the world: technology.
Jeremy Blayton (CN male inquisitor of Gorum 10/celebrity 3) was once a Molthuni commissar in his youth, later becoming the leader of the lead singer of the band that invented heavy mithral, Hammer of Gorum. Now, he runs the Hall of Singing Iron, a large coliseum/auditorium that echoes with the throngs of glorious battle and the shattering strings of music alike.
Rhen Caylean (CG female gunslinger 10) is the rough-and-tumble leader of the Sons of Liberty, a militant Caylean sect looking to safeguard the freedoms of Agrowan one bullet at a time.
I'll post more some other time. For now, I am out of time.
I would say it depends also on the local governing system as well as chosen deity. Qadira will listen to a paladin of Sarenrae before a paladin of Iomedae and Rahadoum will sick its Pure Legion on them if they dare use divinity as proof of righteousness. Cheliax cares a lot more about the letter of the law than the spirit, so they'd easily dismiss a paladin trying to use their status as a convincing argument unless that paladin also holds powerful political connections to grease the wheels of the bureaucracy in his or her favor. It's a very interesting dynamic because so many variables are left to be considered.
I really like yiur selection, Rosc. The songs crisply bring the personalities of your characters. Then again, I am very inclined to using video game music myself, so maybe I'm just also attached to the concept.
Oh, man, I have been waiting since last night to post this. Darn goblins in the machinery.
Let's see, I have a few other characters.
Silver Cassorin (LG middle aged male Garundi human mysterious stranger gunslinger 4) is a wandering retired lawman looking to bring justice to the world abroad with his old musket, My Fair Lady.
Svala Hulzvog (CN female dwarf brawler 6) - A glory-seeking former raider from the Ironbound Archipelago.
Lucius Eskariot (LE middle aged dwarf cleric of Asmodeus 11) is an ambitious, Machiavellian, gentlemanly former slave. Loves coffee, hates children.
Renila Karthmil (LE female tiefling spiritualist 2) is the quiet, soft-spoken worshiper of Zon-Kuthon and host of the jealous spirit of Jilted Joan.
Reshimonde (CN oread shaman 4/brawler 1) is a former bandit, boisterous pervert, and self-proclaimed love/fighting guru with a soft spot for people who get on his good side and a no-bullshit attitude.
Abrahm AKA "Akrog the Red" (CG male half-orc armored hulk unchained barbarian 11) is a young and somewhat socially awkward former gang member native of Numeria looking to reunite with his mother and protect the people he's come to call family... and maybe kick some Technic League butt in the process. Has bright red hair.
Au'kambi (LG female Garundi half-elf oracle 9) is a seer on a quest to save her native tribe from a terrible disease/curse caused by a powerful daemon.
Think that's all of them... though I kinda feel bad for not giving my other list a description. Think I'll do it here, for good measure, but in spoiler tags so as to avoid bloating this post.
Spoiler:
Aldrius Froidvoir (NG male middle aged Taldane human water elemental sorcerer 6/archmage 1) is a kindly barrister and worshiper of Sarenrae with repressed magical talent thrust suddenly into the front of the war on the Worldwound.
Benedin Dahker (NE male elf vivisectionist) is the Daemon Barber of Kaer Maga, an infamous professional assassin known for his pride, alchemical genius, and nihilistic egocentricity.
Sakhbet (NE Kelish male human alchemist 11) is a Pharasmin heretic who turned to the worship of Urgathoa after learning he was fated to die at birth. An immoral cannibal with a love of natural science.
Hiram Desdalus VIII (LN tiefling magus 8) is a noble disgraced for his fiendish heritage who cast himself adrift after a life of servitude in the Chelish military, seeking his own destiny.
Barkhan Thine (N middle aged fetchling bounty hunter) has seen, done, and felt too much. Now, to escape his past, he focuses solely on doing what he does best: capture wanted men and women for money.
Melickaz AKA "Blacksaw" (CE gnome mesmerist 7) is a con man and gambler who will be your bestest bud until it's the most fun or convenient time to betray you, or maybe he'll just make you his friend forever. Whatever's the most fun to him.
New theory for why undead are inherently evil: because creating undead is an egregious misuse of negative energy.
Negative energy is normally basically entropy. It's job is to make things decay and rot to make way for new life. It is a natural part of the universal cycle of creation and destruction.
And what do necromancers do with it? They twist it and use it to create something. They are screwing with natural laws in a way that is so twisted that anything made as the end result comes out twisted itself.
This is more or less what I was thinking too. I can get behind this theory.
What I'd like to explore lies less on undeath's inherent evil and more with negative energy.
Negative energy is a source of destruction to positive's creation. It's a primal force, something that should not answer to either good nor evil. A negative energy creature (not necessarily an undead) feels the desire to destroy life because that's its intended purpose. Like predators keeping an infestation of prey from devouring every leaf in a forest, they trim the outgrowth of reality. It's like ouroboros, the eternal snake that devours itself and regenerates anew, a never-ending cycle.
Yet, just about ALL creatures born of negative energy are 'evil' because their purpose is destruction, to unmake and devour life and leave behind an emptiness, which inevitably, life will fill in again with new life. That's the way things work.
But you could say daemons do the same thing. Except daemons actively obliterate souls, taking them out of the equation entirely. Negative energy is subtraction. The daemons effectively want to make 1 = 0.
Getting off on a tangent here. What I'm basically saying is that infusing a formerly-dead body with negative energy is to create an agent of destruction, but it isn't purely that. It's almost like an adulteration of negative energy as much as it is of life itself.
So I want to contend the notion of negative energy = evil, especially since positive energy =/= good. Pathfinder IS a place where there is a cosmic balance.
Heh, didn't expect when I raised this thread from the dead to get this much traction.
Got themes for villains and major enemies in my horror campaign. Been fun.
Master Amadeus Kharam (unaligned male elf secret broker occultist 20/trickster 10) is the enigmatic and powerful deceased founder of Candlemere Asylum. His actions built the foundation for the entire campaign premise.
Director Francis Reliyehn (CE human thought eater mesmerist 15) is the psychopathic understudy of Amadeus Kharam, currently running the asylum.
Dr. Fing Nu (LG monk 4/chirurgeon alchemist is the asylum's resident physician with a tormented past. He succumbs to corruption and becomes a jiang-shi.
Head Orderly Mr. Zachs (CE male advanced bagman trophy hunter gunslinger 2) is the asylum's murderous head orderly. Has freakishly square fake teeth, sallow eyes, and a love for gunpowder and hunting people down.
Subject 01 (NE advanced hive warrior) is a test subject in the basement of the asylum being studied by Reliyehn.
The Renwelt Butcher (CE implacable stalker ogre slayer 4) is the elusive serial killer prowling the city of Agrowan. Unstoppable, brutal, and elusive, he has the entire city quaking in terror. There are hints that he is tied to the asylum.
Don Renalti Fuhria (CE male aasimar thug rogue 10) is the intimidating boss of the Fuhria Family, a criminal organization that deals in racketeering, extortion, and theft that despises 'pure bloods'.
Diestera and Ursula (NE changeling oracles 8) are two of the three sub-leaders of the Anthriku Coven, another criminal organization that deals in soul trading. Diestera is a tall and violent street prowler and Ursula is a cannibalistic socialite.
Mistress Anthriku (NE advanced blood hag) is the adoptive mother of the Anthriku siblings and the true leader of the coven. She seeks to bring back a folklore villain to Agrowan using soul gems to empower the ritual.
Lek and Mek Crozdin (CN male gnome experts 9) are twin geniuses and former Technic League engineers. They craft, repair, and produce all of the technological advancements that keep the Mirilen Syndicate a top contender in Agrowan's criminal scene.
Chief Lothore Mirilen (LE male elf grenadier alchemist 10) is a former Technic League administrator who guards his identity and illegal operations, killing anyone who comes even close to divining his true identity in a paranoid frenzy.
Chief Justice Twil Drohum (NE male human unchained summoner 7/circuit judge cavalier 3) is an overweight judge and popularly jovial figure in the Agrowani justice system, but secretly has become intoxicated by the promises of otherworldly beings and seeks to bring them here.
Huohuomug'osh the Slithering(LE advanced chyzaedu) is the emissary of the Dominion of the Black sent to Golarion to pave the way for an invasion fleet using various local agents swayed by madness or promises of power.
Be ready for this Pandora's Box to open, because matching characters with themes is kind of a hobby of mine. I even do it for other peoples' characters...
Anyway.
Aldrius Froidvoir (NG human water elemental sorcerer): "Undone by the Blood" remix by Alex Roe
Benedin (NE elf vivisectionist): "Dark Rebirth" from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 3
Sakhbet (NE Kelish human alchemist): "Potion Shop" cover by the Hylian Ensemble
Hiram Desdalus VIII (LN tiefling magus): "Writhe in Pain" remix by The Legendary Zoltan
Barkhan Thine (N fetchling bounty hunter): "Serpent Dream" by Mike Oldfield
Melickaz AKA "Blacksaw" (CE gnome mesmerist): "Bogeyman Boogie" by Dr. Steel
They didn't. T'was a frustrating thing, and it made me think that witches were weak for a while... at least until I made witches of my own and well, they proved to be ridiculous.
Power fantasy is probably a core aspect of a lot of games. You play a singular badass taking down armies of people. Sometimes, you're just a born-and-bred master of destruction. Sometimes, though, the power comes from a singular object.
Of course we know about artifacts in tabletops of all kinds, and while they are always powerful (even minor artifacts), we sometimes wonder "how much more powerful can we make them?" They could be the focus of an entire campaign, after all.
So just for fun, I want to see everyone's idea for super-powerful artifacts. Add as much detail as you want, as many complications as you desire, a backstory and a means of destruction... world's your oyster.
I'll start it off. Gonna go on the record to say that I'm already using this artifact for my players and, although it is weakened, they are bit-by-bit discovering and unlocking more of its power. It's a focus of the campaign, after all, though they don't know it yet.
Quote:
Cosmos, Greatsword of the Master
This imposing +5 greatsword was created by Master Amadeus Kharam using the raw quintessence of creation. Yet, in base form, it is useless, as it has no blade whatsoever. Whenever the sword is anointed with one of 7 special quintessences (coined the Cosmospectra due to their unique hue and planar origin), it gains a blade of the appropriate color and bonus abilities based on that color. This effect remains until a new color anoints it or the current blade is destroyed (hardness 20, 60 hp). Anointing the blade requires a standard action and consumes a dose of the corresponding color. Master Kharam can anoint the blade as a swift action and does not require a material component to do so. The colors and their corresponding bonus abilities are:
Drimic: ghost touch exhausting phase locking
Inviolant: axiomatic unholy frost
Lavigo: deceptive unseen greater distracting
Memocyan: transformative called spell storing
Neregin: greater vampiric umbral
Phant: disjoining anarchic wounding
Solagone: holy flaming lifesurge
In addition, once per day per color, the user may activate a special ability or attack when a color is active by expending a point of mythic power and consuming a dose of the corresponding color (which may have additional effects). User must wait 1d4 rounds before they can use any other color ability. Kharam is able to use these abilities any number of days without consuming a color, though he must still expend mythic power. All saves are equal to 10 + mythic tier + user's charisma score.
Abandon Reality [Drimic]: Cast deep slumber and nightmare simultaneously (nightmare is treated as having a casting time of instant). Expend one additional mythic power to cast mythic versions of deep slumber.
Consuming drimic
Undeniable Truth [Inviolant]: Caster gains true sight for 3 rounds.
Be Forgotten [Lavigo]: Become invisible as per greater invisibility for a number of rounds equal to your mythic tier.
Remembrance of Might [Memocyan]: Recall Cosmos at any time from any distance, even across planes. Doing so causes a 10 foot burst of psychic energy that dazes enemies for 1 round and deals 5d6 points of damage (Fortitude halves and negates dazed condition). Creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities are immune to this effect.
Inevitable Oblivion [Neregin]: Slash the sword downward, causing any creature in a 120ft line to be affected by enervation (Fort halves). Spend 2 additional points of mythic power to make this energy drain instead.
Unmake [Phant]: The next creature or object struck by the weapon is also affected by a disintegrate spell equal to the user's character level as caster level.
All-Consuming Hope [Solagone] : Sweep the sword forward, causing any character in a 60ft cone to take 1d6 fire damage per the user's character level (Reflex halves). Half of this damage is sacred damage that bypasses fire resistance and does not affect good creatures. Expending an additional point of mythic power makes this 1d8 per character level instead.
===============
Destruction: To truly destroy Cosmos and its hilt, Amadeus Kharam must be killed with it. Doing so causes Kharam's soul to be released of its deity-borne curse of endless, conscientious, damned reincarnation and to pass on to the afterlife.
Quote:
THE COSMOSPECTRA
NOTE: All +1 to DC/CL are granted to scrolls written with the ink. Only one dose is needed regardless of the spell's level.
Memocyan: Silver blue. The color of memory. +1 DC/CL to divination spells. Anything written in it that is seen is impossible to remove via memory altering spells, though lavigo consumption or wish/miracle can. Consuming it casts ancestral memory on the drinker, but with only a 50% chance of success. Tastes like something you ate but whose taste you forgot. Taste lasts for 24 hours.
Price: 1,500gp per dose
Solagone: Bright, burning, amber-gold. Tied closely to planes of fire, good, and positive energy. +1 DC and CL to fire, healing, and good spells. 1d6 fire damage if used as a splash weapon, half of which is non-resistible divine. 3d6 vs evil creatures, 2d6 vs neutral. Does not, oddly enough, cause things to catch on fire. Tastes like burning gold and joy.
Price: 2,500gp per dose
Phant: Seemingly translucent, but with streaks of pale ashen gray misting through it now and then. Tied to the Maelstrom and the Boneyard. +1 DC/CL to spells with the chaos or death descriptor. Phant-colored weapons inflict devastating wounds that will not heal naturally, and require a DC15 heal check to treat, and a DC15 CL check to heal with magic. Drinking one dose grants death ward for 10 minutes. Consuming more than one dose instead causes the subject to suffer every blow as if it had phant applied to it for 10 minutes for every dose consumed. Tastes like nothing.
Cost: 2,500gp per dose
Lavigo: An electric violet. Tied strongly to the Astral Plane, specifically the Akashic Record. +1 DC and CL to illusion and mind-affecting effects. Dangerous if smelled or touched. Smelling causes the target's memory to lapse 1 round (DC12 Will negates). Direct contact causes the target to lose 1 random memory as if by modify memory (DC15 negates). Consumption causes the target to gain the amnesia greater madness. No one knows what it tastes like, because they immediately forget.
Cost: 2,500gp per dose
Neregin: The deepest, darkest black, it doesn't even reflect light. Tied strongly to the Shadow and Negative Energy Planes. +1 DC/CL to shadow and negative energy spells. Applied to an undead, grants them the effect of an unhallow spell for 1 hour. Applied to the living, causes 2d6 negative energy damage. If drank, inflicts 1 temporary negative energy level and 2d6 damage for every dose consumed (DC15 Fort negates). Tastes like your own rotting tongue.
Cost: 2,500gp per dose
Inviolant: The deepest red, both bright and dark at the same time. Tied closely to Hell. +1 DC and CL to law and evil spells. Completely indelible, and ignores invisibility. Can only be removed with phant, destroying the object it is on, or with the 'erase' spell (DC 20 caster level check, as if against spell resistance). Tastes like burnt blood.
Cost: 2,500gp per dose
Drimic: Strange, translucent green color. Tied closely to the Ethereal Plane and the Dimension of Dreams. +1 DC and CL to sleep based magic. Applied to up to 1x1 sq ft of surface of an object, causes that object to become incorporeal for 2 rounds before becoming material again, shunting anything shoved inside to the nearest square. If consumed, 1 dose causes a creature to enter a deep sleep (DC15 Will to resist), though they can still be awakened. 10 doses at once causes a permanent coma that can only be removed with break enchantment, greater restoration, psychic surgery, wish, or miracle. This coma also causes the drinker's soul to enter the Dimension of Dreams. Tastes like the sum of everything you have experienced since your last sleep cycle.
I established rules to prevent weak characters in the first place. I basically allow my players to put an 18 in any one ability that they roll, and I generally allow them to mulligan a roll if they roll like a 7 or lower (unless they wanna play that off, which I'm all for).
However, this wasn't enough to save our witches. There have been two, and it sadly left me with an impression that witches were pretty weak, what with the complicated and expensive way they need to use to learn new spells. The first one kept using her claws (she was a changeling) and lipstitch. The second one was basically "f*$$ it, I'm going to make him a pure healer instead", which as we all know pure healers in D20 systems are... well, they tend not to be able to keep up with the massive amounts of damage that are doled out. It was fortunate for that second instance that my alchemist and my fellow player's pistolero were powerhouses, so we managed to get through that nastiness.
Actually, in another campaign (a horror one involving a powerful occultist who knows a lot about the universe) I adapted the Neathbow into powerful colors that are actually distilled planar quintessence. They have powerful properties based on the plane (or planes, as they can be a mix) they are from. I tweaked the names and the lore a bit to fit, though. They are:
THE COSMOSPECTRA
Drimic: greenish color from the Dimension of Dreams. Grants a +1 to caster level and DC of sleep based spells as a component. Tastes like every experience had since your last sleep cycle.
Inviolant: Bloody red color tied to Hell. Almost impossible to erase. +1 to evil and lawful spells. Tastes like frozen sulfur and blood. Used often in important contracts.
Memocyan: Silvery teal color tied to the Astral Plane, where psychic memories lie. Grants a +1 CL and DC to scrying and augury divination spells. Tastes like the last thing you experienced.
Lavigo: Spectral violet ink from the Astral Plane tied to forgotten memories. +1 to memory altering spells. Tastes of what?
Phant: Indescribable color from the edges of the Maelstrom, where the breaking of the laws of reality permit it to be created. "The color that remains when all others are gone". +1 to chaos and figment spells. Tastes like nothing you have ever had.
Neregin: Unreflective black from the Negative Energy plane. +1 to negative level and negative energy spells. Tastes of your own painfully rotting mouth.
Solagone: Bright amber gold color from the sunlight of Nirvana and the positive energy plane. +1 to healing and fire spells. Tastes of burning and joy.
If anyone has ever heard of the Indie game Sunless Sea, they know about a vast, underground ocean full of riches, sea monsters, and eldritch locations that defy the laws of reality as we know it. So, imagine my giddiness upon reading up o, the similarly named Sightless Sea in Pathfinder. The wheels in my head have been turninf about the potential for a pirate or merchant trader style campaign, where the goal is quite simple: wealth, power, and adventure. No world destroying plots (maybe), no apocalyptic cult (or an excessive number of them), and aome easygoing sailing (with the occassional sea monster attack). And plenty of black humor... With an accompaniment of expendable red shirt mooks to go along with it for shiggles.
Seem interesting? If so, what mechanics would be recommended for it?
Oh, huh. Wow, I do not keep track of my own previous assessments... well, it was a long while back. Excellent example, Wierdo. Will help me explain it to people when there's a chance.
Crap, you guys just pointed out something: nobility should've been bunched together with history, not geography. It makes more sense that way. Hmmmm.
One of the biggest conundrums I find are that often history gets terribly under-regarded, at least by my group. It may be that history just doesn't seem to take a center stage in our campaigns (we tend to be more 'PRESENT ACTIONS AFFECTING THE FUUUUTUUUUURE' kind of people) but it's also because we're all RPers, so a lot of the lore in the game is already known to them. Perhaps I need to present the information more ambiguously, but generally they can figure things out on their own OOCly (Oh, well, we're in ruins that used to be Xin-Bakrakahn, so clearly that's a statue of Alaznist.)
Trying to figure out ways to diversify it. I almost feel like state legislature should be history instead of local (or in my case geography). Maybe holiday trends too given their historical significance. Geography/local could detail how to celebrate the holiday, but not the story behind it.
The question is simple: Which version of the Pathfinder/DND troll do you like best?
Version 1:"Plant Man"
Most humanoid looking one, with thin, lanky features, wicked claws, sunken eyes, droopy nose, pointy ears, and plant-like skin.
Version 2: "Scaled Brute"
Much bulkier, with defined musculature and plated, reptilian skin, beady eyes, jagged tusks with four fingered hands bearing ragged, flat, long nails and stumpy, a snarled, stubby nose, and an extended lower jaw with a slithering, long tongue.
Version 3: "Man-Beast"
Has an almost wolfish snout, shaggy fur, leaner build, rotund belly, bowed legs, and flatter heads.
So, which is best? I personally like #2 as being distinct from the plant man troll, still keeping that savage streak though it doesn't seem as freaky. Version 3 strikes me as silly, like a bumbling cartoon rather than a ferocious monster. The features are exaggerated beyond the point of being agreeable, and its beady eyes look more dumb than they do malicious.
