Why is undead considered evil?


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New theory for why undead are inherently evil: because creating undead is an egregious misuse of negative energy.

Negative energy is normally basically entropy. It's job is to make things decay and rot to make way for new life. It is a natural part of the universal cycle of creation and destruction.

And what do necromancers do with it? They twist it and use it to create something. They are screwing with natural laws in a way that is so twisted that anything made as the end result comes out twisted itself.


That just begs the question, how do you destroy with positive energy then? As a counterpart to that theory.
Because that would be pretty fascinating thing to behold.


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bugleyman wrote:

Because reasons.

Seriously, it's just fiat. Never mind that you're feeding starving peasants with undead farmers, or saving children from soul-crushing manual labor. It's EVILLLL.

Oh sure, wreck the economy, why don't you? :P Local farmers won't be too happy that not only did you dig up his grandpa's remains, you then put the decayed creature you crafted from them to work to put him out of business with an unpaid labor force!

More seriously, screw the undead as manual laborers thing. You're making the local citizenry very uncomfortable as the remains of their ancestors are dispassionately turned into tools, you're probably pissing off every death god in the vicinity, you're not getting permission from the spirits of the departed to use their remains as you see fit, you're depriving the ground of delicious nutrients, and nothing you're getting from this couldn't be accomplished better by using the same amount of spell components and stuff on constructs.

And constructs don't fall to bits, smell atrocious, explode during heat waves, or wander off to eat people's brains if their handler takes a sick day, either.

I'm just saying, if I was going to use spells to end unskilled labor as a profession forever, I'd generally look into doing that with tools you can make out of dirt, bits of wood, and scrap metal before I disinter the corpse of someone's mom.


Envall wrote:

That just begs the question, how do you destroy with positive energy then? As a counterpart to that theory.

Because that would be pretty fascinating thing to behold.

Well, you have this:

Positive Energy Plane wrote:
An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is forced upon her. Then, because her mortal frame is unable to contain that power, she is immolated, like a mote of dust caught at the edge of a supernova.


Ventnor wrote:

New theory for why undead are inherently evil: because creating undead is an egregious misuse of negative energy.

Negative energy is normally basically entropy. It's job is to make things decay and rot to make way for new life. It is a natural part of the universal cycle of creation and destruction.

And what do necromancers do with it? They twist it and use it to create something. They are screwing with natural laws in a way that is so twisted that anything made as the end result comes out twisted itself.

This is more or less what I was thinking too. I can get behind this theory.


Dalindra wrote:
Envall wrote:

That just begs the question, how do you destroy with positive energy then? As a counterpart to that theory.

Because that would be pretty fascinating thing to behold.

Well, you have this:

Positive Energy Plane wrote:
An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is forced upon her. Then, because her mortal frame is unable to contain that power, she is immolated, like a mote of dust caught at the edge of a supernova.

Some previous version of D&D (it may have been pre-3.0) fleshed this out a bit more -- you could (dangerously) use this phenomenon to heal yourself, but if you healed up to 2X your normal hit points, you exploded. (The excess hit points beyond your maximum were something sort of like temporary hit points, but not labeled as such, if I remember correctly.)


Here's the rules for Positive-aligned planes from the Gamemastery Guide:

PRD wrote:

Positive-Dominant: An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. Like negative-dominant planes, positive-dominant planes can be either minor or major. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.

Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, which kills it.

Basically, whenever you have more HP than your max, you make a DC 20 Fort save every round. Failure=death.

Inevetables on the Positive Energy plane can have infinite hit points, and they can last up to two minutes after leaving. Undead are less harmed than living creatures, ironically.

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:

To support the concept of the overwhelming majority of Undead being Evil, it would probably be good to change the rules so that most Undead have a real need to feed (eating flesh or blood for most corporeal Undead, and Energy Drain or Ability Damage/Drain for most incorporeal Undead, although with specific exceptions in both cases; either way, the instictual preference of prey choice is strongly towards sentient beings). If they don't feed, they won't completely starve outright, but they can't heal, and their activities are extremely curtailed, while their hunger becomes maddening even as they find themselves forced to sleep to conserve energy; if they can feed sufficiently, they don't need to sleep. Intelligent Undead are often terrified of the prospect of being forced into sleep (to rebuild their energy very slowly by the trickle of energy that comes from their Negative Energy Plane connection) for long periods and being unable to defend themselves effectively (and if they have managed to build up a bit of reserve energy, when awoken they may not be able to resist their hunger, and do something that gets themselves killed even when they know better). This by itself doesn't absolutely guarantee that Undead will be Evil, but it provides an extremely strong push in that direction.

Though this kind of system is interesting, I do not feel it is necessary

There is no such system for Evil outsiders yet nobody has a problem with them being Evil, with even less variation than undead

Why do so many people hate that undead are mostly Evil in PFRPG while they have no problem with almost always Evil outsiders ?

Why does it matter so much ?


^It's a bit different in this case. Not all Outsiders are Evil, just the Evil ones. Aligned Outsiders are usually made with an alignment and usually stick with it, but they have a large number of subtypes, each with its own starting alignment. In contrast, the whole Undead creature type seems to be largely restricted to Evil regardless of subtype, even though they have a great many subtypes (although usually not spelled out as a "subtype" in the stat block) and this restriction in possibilities seems puzzling to some people. Even Constructs are not that restricted in alignment possibilities; the only whole creature type even more restricted is Animals (and I would argue unfairly so -- Animals are not given enough credit in D&D and Pathfinder), at at least that restriction pulls to the center.


The Raven Black wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

To support the concept of the overwhelming majority of Undead being Evil, it would probably be good to change the rules so that most Undead have a real need to feed (eating flesh or blood for most corporeal Undead, and Energy Drain or Ability Damage/Drain for most incorporeal Undead, although with specific exceptions in both cases; either way, the instictual preference of prey choice is strongly towards sentient beings). If they don't feed, they won't completely starve outright, but they can't heal, and their activities are extremely curtailed, while their hunger becomes maddening even as they find themselves forced to sleep to conserve energy; if they can feed sufficiently, they don't need to sleep. Intelligent Undead are often terrified of the prospect of being forced into sleep (to rebuild their energy very slowly by the trickle of energy that comes from their Negative Energy Plane connection) for long periods and being unable to defend themselves effectively (and if they have managed to build up a bit of reserve energy, when awoken they may not be able to resist their hunger, and do something that gets themselves killed even when they know better). This by itself doesn't absolutely guarantee that Undead will be Evil, but it provides an extremely strong push in that direction.

Though this kind of system is interesting, I do not feel it is necessary

There is no such system for Evil outsiders yet nobody has a problem with them being Evil, with even less variation than undead

Why do so many people hate that undead are mostly Evil in PFRPG while they have no problem with almost always Evil outsiders ?

Why does it matter so much ?

People want undead characters but gms have used the "they're evil" to deny them.

For some its a chance to take a few kicks at the alignment system. They usually trot out the alignment is descriptive not prescriptive lines.


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Ryan Freire wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

To support the concept of the overwhelming majority of Undead being Evil, it would probably be good to change the rules so that most Undead have a real need to feed (eating flesh or blood for most corporeal Undead, and Energy Drain or Ability Damage/Drain for most incorporeal Undead, although with specific exceptions in both cases; either way, the instictual preference of prey choice is strongly towards sentient beings). If they don't feed, they won't completely starve outright, but they can't heal, and their activities are extremely curtailed, while their hunger becomes maddening even as they find themselves forced to sleep to conserve energy; if they can feed sufficiently, they don't need to sleep. Intelligent Undead are often terrified of the prospect of being forced into sleep (to rebuild their energy very slowly by the trickle of energy that comes from their Negative Energy Plane connection) for long periods and being unable to defend themselves effectively (and if they have managed to build up a bit of reserve energy, when awoken they may not be able to resist their hunger, and do something that gets themselves killed even when they know better). This by itself doesn't absolutely guarantee that Undead will be Evil, but it provides an extremely strong push in that direction.

Though this kind of system is interesting, I do not feel it is necessary

There is no such system for Evil outsiders yet nobody has a problem with them being Evil, with even less variation than undead

Why do so many people hate that undead are mostly Evil in PFRPG while they have no problem with almost always Evil outsiders ?

Why does it matter so much ?

People want undead characters but gms have used the "they're evil" to deny them.

For some its a chance to take a few kicks at the alignment system. They usually trot out the alignment is descriptive not prescriptive lines.

It´s getting really boring when people want to play monsters for the cool powers, at the same time not play them as monsters.


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You mean Twilight?


Ryan Freire wrote:
Why does it matter so much ?

For me it matters because it's lazy and restricts possibilities. There are undead which aren't evil in myth and fiction (including some Real-World deities).

Though in my own games I use the wonderful Subjective Morality ruleset so my games are free to have characters with personalities rather than "I do evil because James Jacobs is a fan of certain types of horror".


Purple Overkill wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

To support the concept of the overwhelming majority of Undead being Evil, it would probably be good to change the rules so that most Undead have a real need to feed (eating flesh or blood for most corporeal Undead, and Energy Drain or Ability Damage/Drain for most incorporeal Undead, although with specific exceptions in both cases; either way, the instictual preference of prey choice is strongly towards sentient beings). If they don't feed, they won't completely starve outright, but they can't heal, and their activities are extremely curtailed, while their hunger becomes maddening even as they find themselves forced to sleep to conserve energy; if they can feed sufficiently, they don't need to sleep. Intelligent Undead are often terrified of the prospect of being forced into sleep (to rebuild their energy very slowly by the trickle of energy that comes from their Negative Energy Plane connection) for long periods and being unable to defend themselves effectively (and if they have managed to build up a bit of reserve energy, when awoken they may not be able to resist their hunger, and do something that gets themselves killed even when they know better). This by itself doesn't absolutely guarantee that Undead will be Evil, but it provides an extremely strong push in that direction.

Though this kind of system is interesting, I do not feel it is necessary

There is no such system for Evil outsiders yet nobody has a problem with them being Evil, with even less variation than undead

Why do so many people hate that undead are mostly Evil in PFRPG while they have no problem with almost always Evil outsiders ?

Why does it matter so much ?

People want undead characters but gms have used the "they're evil" to deny them.

For some its a chance to take a few kicks at the alignment system. They usually trot out the alignment is descriptive not prescriptive lines.

It´s getting really boring when people want to play monsters for the cool powers, at the same time not play them as monsters.

its how the creature acts that makes them a monster not what powers they have


The Raven Black wrote:
Why do so many people hate that undead are mostly Evil in PFRPG while they have no problem with almost always Evil outsiders ?

The one thing that really confuses me though, historically, is how Skeletons in the original Monster Manual were Neutral, which makes sense to me as they are mindless creatures who just do what they're told or otherwise mill about aimlessly. Since that book, through various editions of various fantasy games, they've been every evil alignment.

Why is it necessary that mindless undead be evil? If a wizard fills his lair with skeletons, those are evil, but if they construct bone golems and flesh golems well that's fine because those are neutral (even though they require animate dead as part of their construction.)


I guess that a mindless undead is evil because it still has some "urges". Another mindless creatures (oozes, swarms) do what their do to survive. They feed because they are hungry, they attack because they feel threatened. But mindless undead are usually moved by a need for destruction that isn't related to surviving.

If you let another creature on its own it will probably only kill to survive. But undead usually prey on the living just for destruction. Even if it's pure instinct more than a real motivation, it's still evil.


Here's my internal conceptualization of why skeletons attack people:

If you put a tool in their hand, if they were familiar with its use in life, some sort of resonant echo of their existence will compel them to use that tool. So if you give a skeleton a shovel, it will dig, if you give it a broom it will sweep, and if you give it a spear it will poke things with it. You can set up sorcerer's apprentice type situations, as the skeleton probably isn't particularly discerning and can't be trusted to dig only where they're told.

But in my personal setting, skeletons are neutral and you can get them to stop attacking you by disarming them.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Why do so many people hate that undead are mostly Evil in PFRPG while they have no problem with almost always Evil outsiders ?

The one thing that really confuses me though, historically, is how Skeletons in the original Monster Manual were Neutral, which makes sense to me as they are mindless creatures who just do what they're told or otherwise mill about aimlessly. Since that book, through various editions of various fantasy games, they've been every evil alignment.

Why is it necessary that mindless undead be evil? If a wizard fills his lair with skeletons, those are evil, but if they construct bone golems and flesh golems well that's fine because those are neutral (even though they require animate dead as part of their construction.)

I think that is the part that Lady-7 here has also problems understanding (or rather: accepting)

You power something with negative energy, you fundamentally change its nature, on a level that no amount of "nurture" can change anymore, creating monsters. Even something as mindless as a skeleton will always attack to kill and destroy, simply because that is now its nature. Same with Ghouls, and so on.

An ooze, mold or something like that will simply behave like any living creature, defending itself, feeding to sustain itself, all the usual.

Your Flesh Golem isn´t powered by negative energy, but rather uses some type of bound elemental to animate it, that´s why it is Neutral. Compare that to golems with either bound fiends or a connection to the plane of shadow or negative energy plane, then that again changes to evil.

Edit: The "Planes of Power", aka the inner planes, are all basically neutral, as is creation and destruction. It just gets out of hand when trying to use the destructive force as a creative force, because the resolution creation turn out very very wrong.


How much does the "I want to be perceived as monstrous" itch get scratched by playing something like Tieflings, Dhampirs, Changelings, Hobgoblins, Ratfolk, or any of the many "likely to get weird looks" legal races in Pathfinder?

My suspicion is that someone who wants to play undead, but is disinterested in playing a Dhampir is doing so for powergaming reasons.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much does the "I want to be perceived as monstrous" itch get scratched by playing something like Tieflings, Dhampirs, Changelings, Hobgoblins, Ratfolk, or any of the many "likely to get weird looks" legal races in Pathfinder?

My suspicion is that someone who wants to play undead, but is disinterested in playing a Dhampir is doing so for powergaming reasons.

I just deleted the post.

I relaized after I made it I'm not in the mood to actually try and defend the stance, and it doesn't matter, as I don't game with any of you anyway.


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If one of my players wanted to become undead I might allow it but I expect a good roleplaying.

Maybe he is not becoming evil by turning into an undead but I expect to see the player roleplaying how the character fights his new urges or the detachment from mortality and a more alien mind, something like that.

That all undead are evil means to me that one who is not needs to have a strong will to avoid the "taint" of undeath to overcome them.

Just wanting to become undead to get mechanic benefits without roleplaying the consequences is a big no to me. Because it brings awesome roleplaying opportunities and I am not denying them.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Here's my take on it:

Undead are evil because the process by which living things are animated causes a person's mind to be warped in a way that they're effectively incapable of not being evil.

The idea is that physical changes can directly result in changes of mindset. Dehydration can cause cognitive impairment and dementia, drug use can lead to altered consciousness, etc. Now compare those to flooding your body and soul with such huge quantities of negative energy that it not only kills you, but kills you SO MUCH that you actually get up and keep moving around after death. Forget issues of brain chemistry; you don't even HAVE a brain to alter anymore - you think with a negative-energy matrix that approximates your old identity and memories; and we're surprised that this changes your personality?

In other words, I don't think that the only effects that undeath has on your mentality are issues of dealing with eternity and maybe some sensory deprivation. Such a radical change in your existence necessarily has changes to your mindset as well, which is manifest in your alignment changing. (There are exceptions to this, such as vampires, wherein the method by which the negative energy is applied can preserve some or all of your mentality. Not coincidentally, this tends to have side effects, which is why vampires tend to have such a wide array of weaknesses compared to most other undead.)


PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much does the "I want to be perceived as monstrous" itch get scratched by playing something like Tieflings, Dhampirs, Changelings, Hobgoblins, Ratfolk, or any of the many "likely to get weird looks" legal races in Pathfinder?

My suspicion is that someone who wants to play undead, but is disinterested in playing a Dhampir is doing so for powergaming reasons.

dhampires are not undead tho they are just living creatures with negative energy affinity its not even close to the same thing


Kileanna wrote:

If one of my players wanted to become undead I might allow it but I expect a good roleplaying.

Maybe he is not becoming evil by turning into an undead but I expect to see the player roleplaying how the character fights his new urges or the detachment from mortality and a more alien mind, something like that.

That all undead are evil means to me that one who is not needs to have a strong will to avoid the "taint" of undeath to overcome them.

Just wanting to become undead to get mechanic benefits without roleplaying the consequences is a big no to me. Because it brings awesome roleplaying opportunities and I am not denying them.

negative energy is not evil in and of itself so why would things powered by it be inherently evil


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So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.


Lady-J wrote:
dhampires are not undead tho they are just living creatures with negative energy affinity its not even close to the same thing

What character concepts can't you play as a dhampir that you could play as a corporeal "true undead" character? Don't say "Guy who uses Charisma in place of Constitution and is immune to mind-affecting effects" because that's not a character.

It feels like you can be as much an angst-ridden creature of the night who abhors the sun and needs dark energies to recuperate as you want as a dhampir or comparable "half-undead" race.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much does the "I want to be perceived as monstrous" itch get scratched by playing something like Tieflings, Dhampirs, Changelings, Hobgoblins, Ratfolk, or any of the many "likely to get weird looks" legal races in Pathfinder?

My suspicion is that someone who wants to play undead, but is disinterested in playing a Dhampir is doing so for powergaming reasons.

I know few players actually going for the more exotic races and when, it often is a blast. In Kingmaker, we had a Changeling Paladin knowing what her heritage means and playing up the dread what she might become when the calls comes.

So, i tend to go with your suspicions, there´s so much cool stuff to role-play with, it sparks of either being too jaded or only in for the power.


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What character concepts can't you play as a Kobold that you could play as a full sized "true dragon" character? Don't say "Guy who uses has a breath weapon, can fly around with multiple natural weapons, and is immune to paralyze and sleep effects" because that's not a character.

It feels like you can be as much an greedy gold hoarding lizard who is above the stature of mere mortals and as you want as a Kobold or comparable "lizard-like" race.


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Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.

exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy

Silver Crusade

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Because of what Negative Energy is. It's destruction and entropy, it's destroys. Which is natural by itself. But when you make destruction create, you make something anathema. Instead of destroying, the primal forces of destruction and entropy are now powering something, bringing life to something, something that it should have never done.


Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy

No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.


Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy

Nope! Positive energy is associated with the First World, which has a bias towards the lower end of the alignment spectrum.


Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.

So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?


Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?

Why should it? Positive energy by itself is as neutral or as destructive as anything else. I dunno, you wouldn't call water evil because you can drown in it, right? You wouldn't´t call a sword evil because you could kill with it?

But you would call things evil that are created to be just that, from devils to fiends, as well as to undead, and that their very nature is to do evil.


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Yeah no that's not even close they are opposites and the opposite of evil ain't neutral

EDIT: Not to mention circular logic Undead are evil because they are powered by negative energy which is evil because the things it powers are evil, which are powered by negative energy.


Purple Overkill wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?

Why should it? Positive energy by itself is as neutral or as destructive as anything else. I dunno, you wouldn't call water evil because you can drown in it, right? You wouldn't´t call a sword evil because you could kill with it?

But you would call things evil that are created to be just that, from devils to fiends, as well as to undead, and that their very nature is to do evil.

a hurricane can just as easily destroy stuff as a horde of undead is the hurricane evil now too?


Purple Overkill wrote:


I think that is the part that Lady-7 here has also problems understanding (or rather: accepting)

You power something with negative energy, you fundamentally change its nature, on a level that no amount of "nurture" can change anymore, creating monsters. Even something as mindless as a skeleton will always attack to kill and destroy, simply because that is now its nature. Same with Ghouls, and so on.

This is false, non-mindless undead can change their alignments as easily as a human, dwarf, or orc could.

Purple Overkill wrote:


Why should it? Positive energy by itself is as neutral or as destructive as anything else. I dunno, you wouldn't call water evil because you can drown in it, right? You wouldn't´t call a sword evil because you could kill with it?

... because it was said that Undead are evil because it's using negative energy to create when it's a force of destruction. So using positive energy (the force of creation) to destroy should be evil as well, but it isn't.


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Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?

I would say yes. If a wizard found a way to twist positive energy in such a way that it causes things to decay or be destroyed, that would absolutely be an evil act because of the way they are using what is normally a creative force.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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My home game headcanon is that, while negative energy isn't Evil, Evil attracts negative energy, like a magnet attracts iron filings.

That's why, when you desecrate an area, the undead inside get juiced. You've turned the area into a magnet for latent negative energy.

That's also why Evil clerics spontaneously cast inflict spells and channel to harm. That's the energy that flows toward them freely, on account of their Evilness (or association with an Evil deity).

Latent negative energy also tends to cling to Evil people and places where Evil acts are performed. That's why undead tend to spontaneously form in these places/from these people (or their victims).

So, if you want to infuse a corpse with negative energy to intentionally create an undead creature, the easiest way to do that is to do something evil. Hence, the spells that create undead are all [Evil]. They are evil rites meant to attract large amounts of negative energy and concentrate it in a single place.


The good deities in Golarion must be evil themselves, as must Pharasma, because there are examples of them turning people they dislike into undead... BECAUSE REASONS.

"Hey, this guy has betrayed his holy order. Let's turn him into an immortal abomination filled with hatred for the living. Surely he won't cause any more trouble... right?"

Just trying to figure out how, if the creation of undead is evil, all the deities responsible for making undead as a punishment are not equally guilty.

Unless things are being fiated and Asmodeus actually polymorphed into that deity, circumvented Pharasma without repercussions, and then rewrote the lore.

I guess Wish really does work.

/fascetious :P


Lady-J wrote:
Kileanna wrote:

If one of my players wanted to become undead I might allow it but I expect a good roleplaying.

Maybe he is not becoming evil by turning into an undead but I expect to see the player roleplaying how the character fights his new urges or the detachment from mortality and a more alien mind, something like that.

That all undead are evil means to me that one who is not needs to have a strong will to avoid the "taint" of undeath to overcome them.

Just wanting to become undead to get mechanic benefits without roleplaying the consequences is a big no to me. Because it brings awesome roleplaying opportunities and I am not denying them.

negative energy is not evil in and of itself so why would things powered by it be inherently evil

I'll keep it as simple as I can: I never mentioned negative energy as a reason for being evil.

I always tied their evil tendencies to urges and the disconnection from the mortal mind as reasons for being pushed into evil, so I don't know why you are bringing negative energy here.

And I also said that a strong will could be able to fight those tendencies.

Your answer is totally unrelated to what I said.


Ventnor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?
I would say yes. If a wizard found a way to twist positive energy in such a way that it causes things to decay or be destroyed, that would absolutely be an evil act because of the way they are using what is normally a creative force.

Here's a further thought: If using Negative Energy to create animate things usually brings about Evil, then using Positive Energy to deanimate things not powered by Negative Energy would also usually bring about Evil, as you say, BUT it could also be twisted to Evil by animating things that were animated by Negative Energy and supposed to be destroyed by Positive Energy rather than reanimated. This comes to mind because the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual entry for Mummies described them as having a strong connection to the Positve Material Plane (which also powers its Mummy Rot). What if this was not just a typo, and the ritual for making a Mummy actually involves first reanimating the corpse as a Wight with Negative Energy as normal, but then destroying it with Positive Energy in a way that doesn't leave it destroyed, but reanimates it AGAIN with Positive Energy to create the Mummy (which potentially ends up being even more Evil than before)?

Although the above development never went anywhere, it would make sense if the minority of other Undead that spawn diseases and/or parasites are also Positive-Energy-connected Re-Undead?

If you're going to do the above, you probably also ought to give reasonably accessible ways to uncouple the polarity of Channel Energy from alignment on the Good-Evil axis . . . .


Hannibull Rektor wrote:

The good deities in Golarion must be evil themselves, as must Pharasma, because there are examples of them turning people they dislike into undead... BECAUSE REASONS.

"Hey, this guy has betrayed his holy order. Let's turn him into an immortal abomination filled with hatred for the living. Surely he won't cause any more trouble... right?"

Just trying to figure out how, if the creation of undead is evil, all the deities responsible for making undead as a punishment are not equally guilty.

Unless things are being fiated and Asmodeus actually polymorphed into that deity, circumvented Pharasma without repercussions, and then rewrote the lore.

I guess Wish really does work.

/fascetious :P

You´ve ever heard the saying "Only death gives life meaning"?

The whole cosmology is build around souls and you can simply follow the whole route from their creation, "life", death to becoming part of the planes to respawn as outsiders, and so on (until the multiverse dies).

So, apparently, unless you´re into some loony cult like Whispering Way or into Urgathoa, undeath seems to be a major form of punishment that actually hits pretty hard, and the "mortal world" is insignificant enough when compared to the outer planes that stuff like this doesn´t have a major impact.


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Ventnor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?
I would say yes. If a wizard found a way to twist positive energy in such a way that it causes things to decay or be destroyed, that would absolutely be an evil act because of the way they are using what is normally a creative force.

So Bolt of Glory and Life Blast should be listed as evil spells then correct?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Talonhawke wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?
I would say yes. If a wizard found a way to twist positive energy in such a way that it causes things to decay or be destroyed, that would absolutely be an evil act because of the way they are using what is normally a creative force.
So Bolt of Glory and Life Blast should be listed as evil spells then correct?

Not sure why Life Blast isn't, to be honest. Killing plant life to fuel your magic seems more than a little Dark Sun. And in my framework, yes, Bolt of Glory should be an evil spell. If Infernal Healing is always evil even if you use it to save lives, then same should be said of Bolt of Glory. As that old chestnut goes, "the means do not justify the ends."

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Purple Overkill wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
So why doesn't positive energy corrupt evil then? Constantly using healing energy or other positive energy on something doesn't ever seem to effect it's goodness. That is the big disconnect for a lot of people I think they want evil/negative energy to be this huge thing that is like a virus getting into everything around it and corrupting it but suggest that any other descriptor spell does the same and your crazy.
exactly if all undead are evil due to being powered by negative energy(which is the main argument for them being so) than all living things should be good as they are powered by positive energy which is not the case so why should it be for those powered by negative energy
No, that is exactly not the main argument. Everything to do with the inner planes is pretty much neutral. It´s the act of being created by/with negative energy, not being powered by it - which is more a side-effect, that changes the base nature to evil.
So then shouldn't destroying things with positive energy be bad?
I would say yes. If a wizard found a way to twist positive energy in such a way that it causes things to decay or be destroyed, that would absolutely be an evil act because of the way they are using what is normally a creative force.
So Bolt of Glory and Life Blast should be listed as evil spells then correct?
Not sure why Life Blast isn't, to be honest. Killing plant life to fuel your magic seems more than a little Dark Sun. And in my framework, yes, Bolt of Glory should be an evil spell. If Infernal Healing is always evil even if you use it to save lives, then same should be said of Bolt of Glory. As that old chestnut goes, "the means do not justify the ends."

Agreed, twisting positive energy to hurt living creatures makes me think Bolt of Glory should be [Evil] as well, at the very least it definitely shouldn't f~#+ing be [Good].

As for Life Blast it's an anti-Undead spell that doesn't hurt living non-plant things so I viewed it as trading and transferring the energy, but I kinda err to what Vent brings up, draining life from something around you is definitely a no-no.


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What's completely mind-boggling to me is that animated a soul-less husk, akin to a puppet, is considered [Evil] but completely Dominating a person's thoughts to do whatever you damn well wish isn't. Forcing someone's will to do you bidding should always be irrevocably [Evil].

Silver Crusade

Diffan wrote:
What's completely mind-boggling to me is that animated a soul-less husk, akin to a puppet, is considered [Evil] but completely Dominating a person's thoughts to do whatever you damn well wish isn't. Forcing someone's will to do you bidding should always be irrevocably [Evil].

Theres nothing inherently evil with the dominate/charm magic, it's what you do with them that can be evil.

Screwing with undeath and souls is inherently Evil.


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My (actually evil) enchanter wizard had a werewolf friend who didn't know he was a werewolf.
He once lost control on the middle of a marketplace.
I could cast Dominate on him or allow him to start killing people while I tried to control him in less definitive ways. (And as I wasn't the Scrodinger Wizard I just had prepared what I had prepared xD)
Would you say that in that case Dominate should be evil?

As Rysky says, what you do with it can be evil, but that doesn't make the spell evil by itself.

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