Alchemy Studios's page

Rise from the Deep!

I've started working on the patching of this again.. Last year was getting busy for me around august so I haven't managed to work on the stuff here.

I'm going to be splitting it up into parts to easy my work load a bit more rather than jumping around all over the place.

So my current thing is "Why can't rogues have nice things?"

While not exactly true, they do get nice things, its just weird how often talents for the rogue get designed to be rather.. pathetic.

So here is Alchemy Studio's Rogue Talent Patch

Its still a work in progress and some of the talents I might overpower accidentally. I'm trying avoid that, and no, not every single talent out there is getting some form of upgrade. Actually many are fine as is, even if they are weak.

Intimidate

Intimidating Presence

Make an intimidate check.. enemy makes a will save vs fear effect

For each creature beyond the first, this check is at a -2 penalty. You can effect any number of enemies in a 30 foot radius around you.

For every 5 feet from you to the creature, the creature gains a +1 on its will save

Every size difference smaller than you, the enemy takes a -4 to their will save
Every Size difference bigger than you, the enemy gains a +4 to thier will save
Having a weapon in your hand, while the enemy is unarmed, lacks natural weapons, or improved unarmed strike grants a +1 bonus for light weapons, +2 for 1h and +3 for 2h weapons. Some weapons may be especially frightening
Making a scary noise, such as yelling loudly, roaring, giving off a scream, grants a bonus of +2 but may have other consequences. Being able to threaten the enemy in a language it understands grants a +4 bonus
Simply trying to stare the enemy down, you take a -5 penalty to the roll, and can only affect a cone of enemies. Treat this as a gaze attack. The enemy must be able to see you. If you have the stern gaze, or evil eye ability however, you do not take any penalty

You can take a full round action at no penalty
Standard for -2
Move for -3
Swift for -4
free for -10
You may only do this once per round however. Any enemy that passes the check at 10 or more is unable to be effected for 24 hours or until a demoralizing event happens for that enemy.

Possible Demoralizing event -
Massive Damage kills ally
Confirm Critical against the enemy
Enemy becomes out numbered
These are up to the GM

Any enemy that fails becomes shakened. If they fail by 5 or more, they become frightened, by 20 or more or roll a natural one, they become panicked unless cornered. Once cornered they begin to cower.

This cannot affect anything with a frightful presence ability.

This is a /very/ rough idea right now.

Mob Rules

Combat, Teamwork, Style
Prerequisite:

Angry Mob: No Prerequisite: Stance You may use Angry mob Cha+1/2 your base attack bonus. The stance is activated as a swift action and requires an ally with Mob Rules. Add your rounds together for how long per day you have. While under the effects of Mob Rules, all members of the mob gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls per 5 bab.

Mob Mentality: Iron Will: While under the effects of Angry Mob, each member of the mob gains +1 will saves per two members in the mob.

Raging Mob: Rage Class ability: While under the effects of Angry Mob you may instead spend rounds of rage. In addition you may spend rounds of Angry Mob and Rounds of rage to incite rage in all members of the mob. They gain half the bonuses and penalties of your rage class feature.

Torches and Pitchforks : Simple Weapon prof: All members of the Angry Mob are Proficient with Torches, Pitchforks (Treat as a trident), Scythes, Sickles, and Knives. A torch is a club that deals 1d4 additional points of fire damage. Any enemy hit with a torch must make a dc 13 reflex save or catch fire if they have flammable items worn.

Mobs Anger: Intimidate 5 ranks: Any member of the mob may as a standard action, use an intimidate check against any creature to cause them to become frightened. The more in the mob the more effective this is (How so though?) Or one may as a standard action, cause one humanoid creature to join in the mob, regardless if they have Mob Rules or not.

The Mob Rules Fighting style. Its a toughy one.. I need to straighten up the language involved.

Duel Rapiers?

Hmm.. it actually doesn't work with duel rapiers, due to a rapier being a 1h weapon, while the style calls out for light weapons. Its actually meant more for duel daggers, but is flexible enough for any P or S light weapon..

I'm not sure if rapier should be added into what the style could use, or exactly how to go about it. If I say 1h weapon or duel wielding s/p weapons, well we get into wonky territory of people duel wielding bastard swords, possibly worse.. Them taking 2 levels of alchemist for vestigial arm and turning the entire style into duel wielding great swords.. eventually at the end with no additional penalty once they get 16 BAB.

Well, thats when you are gonna start getting into issues.. The whole 'natural' and 'magical' divide.

Its important to note that half of the ToB was SU and the other half EX.

Honestly though, a lot of the SU abilities could be explained through the use of specialized equipment and ways to use said equipment.

My biggest issue with ToB is that really it only had 9 styles or so. Maybe a few more, but somewhere around there. That kinda hurts a bit as you're forced to be one of those nine styles.. Something I'm trying to develop and avoid with the style feats. I'm also including blurbs and things on how you do various things to make it known that setting your blades on fire isn't magical, but through the use of alchemist fire and the like.

Well in other news, I've almost finished the first of the Prestige Weapon Style Feats... Desert Rose. Still working on everything though..

Desert Rose

Hailing from the desert lands, this fighting style focusing on a rather thorny approach to combat, utilizing speed and flexibility over power.

Prerequisite: Two weapon Fighting

Acrobatics and Perform Dancing are now class skills for you.

Stance of the Desert Rose: No Prerequisite - You may assume the stance of the Desert Rose as a swift action. To do so you must have two light piercing and or slashing weapon equipped. While in this stance, you may use 10+Perform Dance+Dex+other misc modifiers as your CMD vs trip, bullrush, pull or push combat maneuvers.

Cutting Leaves: Weapon Focus in a light slashing weapon: Utilizing a flurry of blades you leave an opponent open to attacks. Until the end of your next turn, each time an enemy struck by a one handed or light slashing weapon you have weapon focus in takes a -1 to ac upto a -4 to ac.

Bleeding Thorns: Weapon Focus in a light piercing weapon: Every rose has its thorns, the Desert Rose is no exception. Whenever you strike an enemy with a 1h or light piercing weapon you have weapon focus in, that enemy takes one point of bleeding damage. This stacks up to a 5 bleed damage.

Swirling Sands: Dodge - You ignore difficult terrain that is Sand, Dirt, Snow or similar materials while in the Stance of the Desert Rose

Desert Wind - Unarmed Strike - With a quick kick, even the sand beneath your feet becomes a weapon, When making a full round attack, you make sacrifice your highest ab off hand attack to perform a dirty trick to blind an opponent as long as you are on Sand, Dirt, Snow, Water or similar material.

Desert Twister - Unarmed Strike, Whirlwind attack - When using Whirlwind attack you may also make a dirty trick maneuver to blind each target of your attacks as long as you are on Sand, Dirt, Snow, Water or similar material.

Sand Dancer - Dance 5 ranks - Whenever using Desert Wind or Desert Twister, you may make a skill check vs the enemies CMD. If you succeed, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Burning Sands - Craft Alchemy 5 ranks - You may use alchemist fire to coat your weapons as a standard action, inflicting 1d6 fire damage for 1 round and an additional round every five ranks of Craft alchemy.

Desert’s Mirage - Stealth 5 ranks or Evasion Class Feature - While in the Stance of the Desert wind, you have 20% concealment. This does not allow you to stealth without any other concealment or cover.

Dance of Petals - Dazzling Display - You may make an attack roll in place of a performance dance check while in the Desert Wind Stance.

Brambles of the Rose - BAB +6 - While wielding two light piercing and or slashing weapons and in light armor, you are treated as having two-weapon fighting

Improved Brambles of the Rose - Bab +11 - Brambles of the rose also now treats you as having improved two-weapon fighting

Rose’s Hedge - BAB +16 - You no longer suffer penalty to attack bonus for wielding two light piercing and or slashing weapons.

There is something for the Desert wind style. Whatcha guys think? Any more stuff we can add?

Revolutionist

The peasantry is revolting!
Prerequisite:

Disguise is a class skill.

Peasantry Warrior - None - Add half your base attack bonus to your disguise check when disguised as a farmer, serf or any other peasantry that would normally use a scythe or sickle as a tool for their profession. Any scythe or sickle you hold in this disguise requires a perception check vs your disguise check to realize it is actually a weapon.

Prepare the Cranial Harvest - Improved Grapple - Stepping on the enemy’s back you place your scythe’s blade under their chin. You may use a scythe or sickle to grapple a prone target. If you do, you take a -4 to the grapple check, but are not considered to be grappled yourself. You may also pin the prone enemy this way as well. Deal weapon damage to the enemy while grappling or pinning them in this method.

Cranial Harvester - Improved grapple, ??? - With a twist and pull, you sever your victims head from his body in a grisly harvest. Something something damage, target makes a fort save.

Peasant's Vault - ??? - You may use a scythe as a pole vault adding something to jump

Full-Weapon Scythe - ?Two-weapon fighting? - You may use the butt of the scythe as a double weapon dealing 1d6 points of B damage with x2 crit. For the purposes of construction and enchantment though, the scythe is still a single weapon..

Wheel of Death - Throw anything - You may throw your scythe or sickle as a thrown weapon. If you have a BAB of 11 or higher, the weapon flies back to your hand after the attack.

??? - Bab+6 - ???

??? - Bab+11 - ???

??? - Bab+16 - ???

My head is kinda stuffy right now or something and I'm having some difficulty putting words to thought...

The whole harvest tree thing in the style is kinda like This

There is to be some actual rules in there. But essentially its a save or die effect. I'll Also place a few things for group play with the revolutionist.

A farmer weapon style (sickles/scythes)! A pickaxe style!

Farmer style sounds fun.. Oh right I forgot about one that was gonna be made.. "The Axe Maniac."

A few quick brainstorms on farmer style - "Revolutionist" This fighting style utilizes more improvised farm equipment. Disguise becomes class skills, and some abilities towards looking less like a warrior and more like a farmer, catching enemies by surpise.

Pickaxe.. "Maniac Miner" - Utilizes a pick ax to puncture through DR such as x/- dr, material type, even alignment types. Doesn't do anything against /slashing or /bludgeoning.. Causes bleed effects..

Something I'm currently working on is Prestige Weapon Style Feats

These are still heavily worked in progress feats. Some abilities might be a little too powerful, others not so much or even underpowered. Each feat levels and develops with other similar feats you get, and try to take martials to a bit of a wuxia-like state.

Each will have a BAB 6/11/16 ability, a non prereq ability, at least one non-combat ability, abilities that rely on class features or levels, and will slowly develop some defense powers on abilities that don't have it.

Currently, they are limited to 1 such feat per character, but that limitation might be dropped.

In addition, some of the more aggressive ones, will soon be getting some defensive powers.

Also yes, this is evolving style feats, but as I cannot change the name of the old post, I'm forced to make a new one to reflect what is in my doc.

Added the names and a short description to some more styles I'm planning to have.

Looking for some bizarre weapons and the like that are cool in theory, but in practice are rather bland or nonfunctional. Like wise looking for ideas into fighting styles.

Its kinda why I've got the prestigious style feats I'm developing. While they don't exactly address the need for more skill points for fighters (Fighters should get 4+int) It does help against some what of a feat swamped fighter by giving them a feat that grows with them.

My current need is to start putting non-combative uses within the PSF as well.

Any chance we could stop arguing the RAW minutia of a spell and get back on the topic of making martials better?

I'm still improving and looking for input for my Prestigious Style feats.

I wish I could replace the title to my thread with "Prestigious Style Feats"

Cause that's what they'll be called. Added some rules to them. Expanded Desert rose a bit more. Oh yes, there is going to be a lot more abilities in them. Some of which are going to get a little tighter in areas, and call for more specifics.

Like how Desert Rose auto-gives Imp/Greater two weapon fighting style, but only if you use light piercing/slashing weapons. The feats might get a little bloated as more stuff is added and split into two feats.

If anything looks to be too overpowered, or the wording sucks, let me know. Even better if you have ideas how to fix it too. Remember these are for martial classes, which my teir of importance is from most important to least..

Fighter/Rogue,
Cavalier/Samurai,
Monk/Gunslinger,
Barbarian,
Ranger/Paladin,
Magus/Alchemist/Bard,
and then everyone else I can't remember. Specifically, cleric/wizard at the very bottom.

Well, the monk is in luck, cause he could pick them up too. But these are styles of fighting more for weapon wielders

I don't consider the Barbarian to be on the top of the martial. As in, they are a little too supernatural to be at the top. Barb gets a lot of abilities all together that make him all around better at fighting things..

I'm not seeing where you are getting more DPS beyond Desert Rose getting some bleed damage.

Desert Rose - dirty trick maneuvers to kick sand and dust into the faces of your enemies, blinding them. Dance and Acrobatics become class skills. Dance to avoid AoO from using dirty trick maneuvers granted by the feat. This is focused around using two light weapons too, like daggers. Two weapon fighter is a very feat intensive thing, with a bit too little reward.

Stone Splitter - Sunder armor, magic armor, and slow the enemy by pounding them with the might of your two handed weapon. Some heavy base attacks. 2h fighting. Fighters get some stuff from this that specifically calls for class features of theirs.

Twilight Sniper - Crossbows are a poor option to bows. This is intended to improve them, and increase a characters ability to stealth and be sneaky. Increases the range on sneak attacks/precision shot and the use of vital strike.

Noble Duelist - Rapier Dagger style, or similar. Light armor wielding style that has a few maneuvers and the like that cause spellcasters in their reach to be rather disturbed. Forces spell casters to basically make concentration checks within a certain distance of the Noble Duelist in addition to any other concentration check. Possibly Knowledge nobility based skills too.

Iron Curtain - focuses more on defense than the others, giving a tower shield wielding warrior some new options and tricks to use at higher levels.

So I've begun thinking on these more, and how to normalize them a bit.

Each feat has a 'stance' that has no prerequisite ability. Occasionally, such as Twilight Sniper, a stance makes little to no sense, and tends to be something you need to do for the attack action.

Each feat has a bab 6, bab 11 and bab 16 prereq ability. This might be a single ability that grows, such as Desert Rose getting two-weapon fighting bonuses at 11/16 as long as you are in the stance and using the styles's weapons.

Each one that gives an additional class skill or two, if not all of them, have a skill based prereq ability, for those skills they give. Like Desert Rose gives dance and has an ability for dance 5.

Each one should give at least one non-combat power. Like Desert rose again is going to have a 'focused dance' ability. Basically you add your bonuses to your ab to dance from feats and other abilities (Not from BAB str or dex.) to your dance score. A minor ability, but could be helpful.

I had also tried so earlier with This here Mostly ignored though.

The idea is to give more weight specifically to martial classes, by having the feats search for class levels of X, class features, etc and then giving X bonus.

I've been working on a feat system geared towards martials. Mostly Fighters/Rogues who have little to no real 'abilities' beyond more feats.

By Abilities, I mean look at every single class out there. They mostly have tons of abilities that could be replaced out for different archetypes. Rogues have 2 kinds of archetypes though, ones that replace Trapfinding/Trap sense, and ones that replace Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny dodge.

After level 8, rogues have no class features other than the capstone, only 'feats' disguised as rogue talents. Though admittedly some are fairly nice in the advance department. However those are given away to other classes. The only thing that is even the rogues anymore is the master strike ability, and that is kinda weak.

Fighter is 10 feats, 4 weapon trainings 4 armor trainings and mastery with each. Then a very weak resistance to a very specific effect. Might as well have Pickle Resistance for that one.

Added in Noble Duelist, the wording is a bit clunky in it right now.

Essentially, its suppose to be like the man in black here but obviously more fantasy based.

Right! There we go.

And thanks! The crossbow one, I should probably be changing just slightly, as it copies a lot of the fighter's crossbow man archetype, unintentionally.

Though increasing the range of precision damage I think is the first step. Then increasing the use of vital strike for crossbows.. and a few other things.

Kinda finished up Stone Splitter, Working on Twilight Sniper, a crossbow fighting style thingy.

Added the start of Stone Spliter - A two handed fighting style that favors power over the fancy quick movements of Desert Rose. Still adding to that one.

Google Doc here

Taking a page from the Equipment Trick feats, what if there were feats like this that evolved from other class features/feats/racial features/skills the character has?

Particularly this is focused mostly towards the fighter, rogue, and cavalier. Possibly even the monk as well.

So like we have this one..

Pre: +1 bab, two weapon fighting.

You gain Acrobatics, and Perform: Dance as class skills.

Weapon Focus: 1h or light slashing weapon - Any enemy you strike has their AC reduced by one, till the end of your next turn. This stacks for every time that you hit, but not with other individuals using this attack.

Weapon Focus: 1h or Light piercing weapon - any enemy you strike has a 1d4+1 bleed damage.

Unarmed Strike - You can use Dirty Trick maneuver during a full round attack, replacing one off hand attack at your highest BAB to blind an enemy while on Dirt, Sand, Water, or any other similar substance.

Dodge - Ignore difficult terrain for Dirt, Sand.. ???

Unarmed Strike and Whirlwind attack - In addition to the attacks given by using Whirlwind attack, you may also make a dirty trick maneuver against each enemy at any time during the attack to blind the enemy if on [terrain]

Dance 5 ranks - Whenever preforming a dirty trick maneuver by using a portion of this feat, you can make a skill check vs each enemies CMD to not provoke an attack of opportunity. Roll once and compare with each enemy's CMD that threatens you.

the idea of this fighting style is that you're from a desert region, and fight using twin daggers. You can change the fighting style a tad by picking different weapons, not picking up certain feats and the like

You could even have an improved version that adds more features, like Improved Desert Rose Style, that requires unarmed strike and two-weapon fighting.

How is up to +5 to the attack roll/DC of the spell 'a slight bump unworthy of losing a level'?

Feats out there only provide +1 to the attack roll or to the DC.

Yes, one could not cast through the weapon. And therefor not get the enhancement bonus. One could have been a full wizard as well, and just been effective that way.

And really though though the combination of mage bullets, arcane pool and the actual enchantment on the gun.. it should be pretty often you're running around with a +5 barrel.

I'm trying to understand it here, why doing this would be such a drastically subpar option.. cause when I look at it, you get 5 feats of weapon focus (ray), 5 feats of spell focus (ray cone line) exotic weapon prof, gunsmithing, and a secondary way to boost your weapon. In addition to the x3 critical on ray spells if you go one gun.

Espy Kismet wrote:

Actually that is what you are using spell combat for. To gain that Bonus to the DC's of your spells or AB on your ranged touch spells. You also /keep/ them ranged touch spells. So a +5 +14 to attack, you're looking at a +19 on ranged touch attacks without other mods.

Thats exactly what I said, the only thing the spellslinger changes is a small bonus on DC's because the rest can already be done with Spellcombat.^^

Quote:

Spellslinger still works with or without Myrmidarch. Just one way you fire a bullet with a spell, the other way you don't. Pretty much that is all you're doing when you get myrmid.

The thing is, if you use the ranged spellstrike ability of the Myrmidarch, the added enhancement bonus to attack rolls of the Spellslinger does not work, since you already get the full bonus and multiple boni don't stack.

Meaning if you use Ranged Spellstrike, the spellslinger is doing nothing (besides having cost you a level).

Don't understand me wrong, I'm not saying that a sword cane pistol magus doesn't work. All I'm saying is that the one Spellslinger level does nothing for you, besides giving a small bonus to DC's with those few ranged spells that the magus has. It does not open up any new actions.

The thing is though, for Ranged Spell strike, you have to fire a bullet. Which means you're attack the full ac, unless you're within 10 feet. Spellslinger, you're no longer attacking the full ac, cause you're attacking the touch ac again. In addition, you can fire multiple ray spells via spellslinger right at level one without any loss of rays. While you could only get 1 or 2 if you use imp ranged spell strike.

Range Spell Strike simply adds a bullet to the spell, and can increase the amount of AC needed to hit over Spellslinger's ability, making it easier to miss. While spell slinger could allow you to fight someone in melee, and then blast someone 400+ feet away with an acid arrow as part of spell combat.

Her Picture

Cause I haven't got anything else yet to talk about.

Will this build work? Be useful? Anything like that?

OK...what should a crossbow be like? Because in every book I've read a crossbow gets fired once and then discarded. Why? Well lets find out.

I admit the Princess Bride quote was good.

Game of Thrones, crossbows are used heavily. There is one scene that talks about how it takes so long to load, while a later scene shows off a new design that lets one reload faster, and then there is another scene that if you actually had longbows in.. well lets just say you ain't shooting very much, as its a very cramped space.

Drawn opened *shrugs* point is its made to be different. Its not a dagger by the special abilities granted to it. A dagger is a dagger and a butterfly knife is a butterfly knife....kinda like a crossbow is a crossbow and a Longbow is a Longbow....weird.

Mechanically, its no different from a dagger, other than saying that the player is NOT allowed to consider his dagger to be a butterfly knife or folding razor. (and not being thrown.)

Weapons once broken down into dice and abilities of the weapon, are simply that. If I was to make a Dagger, Stiletto, Butcher knife, or the one of the hundreds of other daggers types.. unless I put an actual mechanic on them, All I'm doing is just bloating the system. And if those mechanics are ultimately worse than the dagger, and are anything but simple weapons without offering something better..or truely a side step enhancement, then I'd be bloating the system with poisoned options.. 3.5 collapsed under the weight of its poisoned options.

Quick question...which is better a dagger or a greatsword? I believe this is unfair to dagger fighters. Oh oh and the cane sword...I mean it's only fluff its a cane I can't believe its "so" much worse than a rapier.

Actually Cane sword - Can be disguised to look like a cane, it does have a mechanical advantage over the rapier in that it does have this ability. Allowing one to keep a concealed weapon without having to really hide it.

That's its ability. Its hide able. Not to mention, a later incarnation of it called the Sword Cane Pistol. So, really a sword cane has two functions. hide ability and ability to be melded with a firearm.

Dagger vs Greatsword - Daggers can be hidden, thrown, duel wielded. The can be used as a tool, put in your off hand, melded with a gun. You can do a large number of not killing things with them. You can send a dagger to that girl you love, but is about to be forced to marry that evil viser. You can sneek into a girls bedroom as she's about to plunge a dagger into her breast, and comment about how there is a shortage of perfect breasts in the world. You can sneak up on someone in the shower. There is a reason why its not called cloak and greatsword.

Espy Kismet wrote:

While.. kinda truish.. at the same time, they often don't give /any/ trade off.

Dagger, War Razor and butterfly knife.. are all daggers.

Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/×2 10 ft. 1 lb. P or S
War razor 8 gp 1d3 1d4 19-20/×2 — 1 lb. S
Knife, butterfly 5 gp 1d3 1d4 19-20/×2 — 1 lb. P or S

It basically gets progressively worse. The weapon Dagger, has far better capabilities than the Razor or Butterfly. And its a Simple weapon. You'd be hard press not to be prof with Dagger. All of them get +2 to conceal it. So.. what is the deal? Where is the give and take? You give a more powerful feat and you get nothing in return.

Just wanted to point out but the differences are butterfly knives if proficient can be drawn as a swift action. Also war razors and butterfly knoves weren't reprinted in ultimate equipment so its not really a part of the "core" rules so it probably doesn't count. Though war razors....I got nothing although I believe it was mostly made to give the skinsaw murders a creepier vibe.

Where does it say you can draw it as a free action?

Benefit: If you are proficient with the butterfly knife (or have the Quick Draw feat) and are holding it in your hand, you may open it as a free action; a nonproficient user must spend a move action to open it. Otherwise, treat this weapon as a dagger. When it’s closed, you gain a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal it on your body.

Lemmy wrote:

Stop asking for builds, it doesn't even make sense in this discussion. Even SKR said crossbows are strictly inferior to longbows. He never disputed that fact, he just gave his reasons as why things are like that.

But demanding build contests in every single thread so he can have a chance to prove his superior system mastery is Ciretose's main thing. You can't take that away from him, he'd have nothing left!

Back on topic, I think Crossbows would've been much better served by dropping Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery as feats, and replacing them with something that shifts crossbows to more of a "one big hit" focus. It would make them fit how crossbows really work, and it would give them a much more distinct niche than just being Longbow light.

*claps*

Indeed. Even if Xbows did less damage over a sustained time, having the ability to do one big burst of damage, would give them the niche that they should have.

There is all this complaining about how you have to spend two stats for a comp long bow, and you only spend one for a crossbow.

Well.. Belt of Physical might or whatever it is... +6str +6dex Poof, three more damage added onto Comp longbows. Three more accuracy for both.

Andrea1 wrote:

I believe the bow is superior to the crossbow for martial classes.

Capable of firing multiple shots in a round without needing a feat for fast reload (Rapid Reload makes it Free/Move/Standard instead of Move/Standard/Full round

The damage is only a base 1d8 for a longbow, but it becomes very effective for doing things like preventing a spellcaster from casting if they get exposed and can be a source of steady damage

Most Martial weapons are better for martial classes.

Funny that...

Weapons should be better for martial classes. Period. Because they are martial classes.

Beyond that, whether its a simple, martial or exotic, should NOT really matter. ESPECIALLY when you have an archetype that FOCUSES on a certain weapon.

Now, some argument could be given for exotic being /slightly/ better. But with some of the things that become 'exotic' is really dumb. Like Hand crossbows, Repeating Crossbows, Butterfly Knives, etc.

Its like having two archetypes for wizard... Fire and Ice.

If you take the fire archetype you get to add your dex mod to damage. You can cast any fire type spell as a swift action, ignore energy resistance/immunity, set creatures on fire, become immune to fire yourself, Change any spell type to fire if it has another of the five elemenets..etc.

But if you take Ice you get the ability to spend a full round action to add half your int mod onto the damage. Oh, and your spells can fatigue the enemy. -yay-

One dip into gunslinger doesn't give you the ability to fire cones/lines through your barrel. Not to mention, I can sacrifice spells to enhance my gun barrel+use arcane pool.

I've been working on the idea of a spell slinger for a while. And my latest creation.. Blending together gun and sword.. Desperado

Okay, what is a unicorn Sileni? well its a race my Gm is allowing me to play. Course other than good stats, it doesn't add much. So lets focus on somethings here..

Why Myrmidarch? Well there is the Range spell strike, and the ability to move at full speed while in heavy armor.

Why Range Spell Strike - cause the only thing that makes shooting spells through a gun cooler, is when you also have bullets coming with it too. Though, mostly its the armor I'm after.

However I've got a large number of options, and I can actually use range spell strike with a full attack, while in melee.

So any sort of thoughts?

Oh and I want to point out one thing..

A HUMAN fighter is PROFICIENT with Kobold TAIL rings.

wraithstrike wrote:

Espy Kismet wrote:

Dagger - Simple weapon - Can be thrown, Does S/P 1d4dmg Hide

War Razor - Martial weapon - does S,1d4dmg hide
Butterfly - Exotic - Does P/S, 1d4 dmg, hide

Its the same weapon, but gets progressively worse.

That is not a trap option. That war razor should just be simple weapon or the dagger should be moved to a martial weapon.

Wait wait wait. You're seriously saying that a War Razor is not a trap option because it SHOULD BE different?

No, just no.
The rules are what they are, and the devs aren't going to change them on a whim. That means that a Simple weapon (dagger) is cheaper, easier to use, and offers more options than it's Martial weapon (war razor) counterpoint.

That is a trap option.
You don't get to argue that it's not a trap option just because in your perfect world, it would be different.

Exactly!

A dagger is a simple weapon. Through and through. MUCH more so than a cross bow. You don't see serial killers running around with war razors do you? The closest you have is Sweeny Todd on that, but depending on versions and such. (I didn't watch the old version.) He lulled his prey into a false sense of security, and then slit their throat. He trained with the razor a fairly good deal too. After all, he was a able to give a damn good shave with it.

A dagger? Whats the first thing the woman in the house grabs when she feels threated? A knife. (As per movies. Hell, I'd grab one too.) Men in movies tend to pick up bats. Though, that guy from Psycho - Knife. Michel Mires - Knife. little china dolls. Knives. Knives for everyone.

So how is a MARTIAL weapon weaker than a knife?

Because all of the "Cross bows are fine weapons because they are simple therefor they should suck to martial. Historically they were easy to train a bunch of people with and cheap too." Who doesn't have a knife in their house? Very few people. You'd be hard pressed to find one. In fact knives were the very first 'silverware' a person would have. They would eat with their knife and their hands. No forks or spoons. The butter knife came around so people could still cut food but not stab people.

Lets look at the movie Expendables now. Guess what Jason Stathem's character has? Knives. Whole bucket loads of them. He's made fun of in the movie about having knives. Why use those knives when you can use a gun. Well, you don't gotta reload a knife. And he's shown to be deadly accurate with them. If there was a Knife Guy Archetype for fighter, it would have his face on it. Cause in a /fantasy/ world where everyone else has guns, He could stay pretty well up there on the kill count.

In fact, lets really look at that movie.

We got Jet Li with a machine gun,Terry Crews with the shot gun, and Silvester Stallone with a revolver.

Often each of them ended up with their favored weapon. Some even talked about why its their favorite weapon.

Terry said something along the lines of his gun makes loud noises and people are afraid of loud noises. And when you see him using his shot gun... Well the noise wasn't the only thing they were afraid of.

Jet's machine gun, fires much smaller bullets, but in rapid succession. Its range is futher and such, and the gun at least looks lighter and has less recoil. Fast and speedy bursts

Jason's knives, don't need to be reloaded, they don't jam, they are quieter. In the sequel we see their concealibility at use. Silent and Deadly

Sylvester's revolver may not be quite or as loud as the shot gun, it may not be able to fire bullets at rapid speeds. But its reliable. Its bullets may not spread, but its more powerful than the machine gun. In fact in ghost in the shell, revolver's are talked about being nearly impossible to jam, even if you do have fewer bullets and without a speed loader, take a while to load.

As a special bonus we've got the new kid's rifle. Able to pick off enemies off at a distance quickly and efficiently. However, its not so effective in close ranges.

Each of these weapons ends up having its place in the battlefield, due to the variances between them all. Now, Here comes pathfinder to dumb them down to more simple, game mechanics.

Unfortunately doing that, probably makes them all about how much damage they can do, rather than the things they do have.

Between a Crossbow and Longbow... Longbows should do higher sustained damage, sure. But a Crossbow ultimately should do a higher burst damage.

Focused shot This really should have been at any range.

I'd have to talk it with GMs I guess.

Sword cane.. the image in my head is pretty awesome. But if I had to do dagger..

Full attack in melee, use spell combat, and range spell strike to attack someone at a distance with bullet and spell.

Or Full Attack, Spell combat, Spellslingers ability to fire a cone, line, or a ray outside of touch reach of the pistol dagger/sword cane.

Or full attack, spell combat, normal spell strike.

Even if the black blade doesn't work.. well, the sword cane pistol still functions for sooo much fun~

Yeah because the weapon that just about anyone can use should really be equal to the martial weapon which requires training for most classes.

DAGGER VS WAR RAZOR VS BUTTERFLY KNIFE!

Explain

I don't really know.

Could you make a black blade Sword Cane Pistol? Or is that not allowed to work? That is the big question here.

Well here is a interesting idea..

Spellslinger - fire spells through barrel of gun
Blade bound Magus - spell combat, spell strike Black Blade
Sword cane Pistol - Oh look, I'm a gun /and/ a sword. And as long as I have one arcane point, I will never ever break.

Will this work?

the chainsaw post from the last page highlights this

Greatsword, 2hand Martial melee Weapon, 2d6, 19/20x2, usable at will, x1.5 STR bonus to damage

Chainsaw 2hand Exotic melee weapon 2d6 20x2, standard action to activate. no STR bonus to damage.

Chainsaw Taxes

Rapid Rev feat; Rev Chainsaw as a move action

Powerful Saw feat; STR bonus to Chainsaw damage

Quickrev battery, consumable 3GP item that allows the chainsaw to activate the chainsaw as a free action once. must be changed after 5 rounds. changing requires a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity

the chainsaw, is inferior to the greatsword, requiring 3 feats and a 3GP consumable item that is used every encounter, and still inferior to the greatsword.

what we want, is the chainsaw to actually be a competitive option to the greatsword, even if it had it's own Purpose

Ah good, it didn't go to complete waste.

In addition lets look at what a 'martial' weapon is.

Did you know that Fighters are prof with EVERY martial weapon? Do tell me how a War Razor requires the same amount of training as a flail? Or longbow? Or Chakram, Cat o Nine Tails, or A kobold tail ring. That is right. A human fighter is PROFICIENT in the use of a kobold tail ring.

As if that wasn't a kick in the pants right there.

Not to mention the whole Exotic > Martial > Simple. Dagger is a simple weapon, but is still better than War Razor/Butterfly knife. Stating "Martial weapons are just better than simple".. yeah. Not quite true there is it?

What we are looking for is not weapon X and weapon Y to be equal in damage. But more of there is a reason why you use weapon X and a reason why you use weapon Y beyond "Oh this is simple weapon, that is martial weapon."

Sadly certian artifacts exist from 3.5 days, like Handcrossbows being exotic, even if its the exact same thing as a light/heavy crossbow. Repeating.. I could see it being a martial weapon.. but to use proficiently, still is the same. Now something like a great crossbow, you might need a little more training there for winding and winching, getting through its mechanics, counterbalancing the weight and recoil.

I want my water-balloon-throwing fighter to be able to deal the same damage as a longbow-shooting fighter. Why does Pathfinder have trap options for some ranged characters?

Okay.. Why is War Razor and Butterfly knife ultimately worse than a dagger? If the war Razor, I dunno.. had a trait or two, it could be a little better.. plus of course more bonus to hiding it. Same with a butterfly knife. As right now, you have to take a standard to draw a hidden weapon, so opening it as a free action for prof did nothing over having a normal dagger.

Also, Water-balloon-throwing fighter - Alchemist.

Blowgun fighter - Thematically, this should end up being a bit of a poisoner, possibly with the ability to buff allies with various sorts of adamixtures.

Its not so much the whole DPS that is an issue, but more of the.. "And thats why I trained in the use of X"

For a good example..

Greatsword vs a Whip.

GS does VASTLY more damage than the whip.. and is easier to learn. Requires less feats, etc.

However a whip, can disarm, trip, attack with reach. Even if you can't do DPS, you can make the enemies' life a living hell.

What we don't want is..

Chainsaw vs Greatsword.

Chainsaw requires an exotic weapon prof, then, you have to spend a standard action to 'charge' the chainsaw, but that can be dropped down to a move action with a feat, and a free action with an 3 gold item per charge. Despite being a melee weapon, it doesn't use strength for bonus damage, unless you take a particular feat (Powerful Saw) and even then it only adds 1x str. On a 1 or 2, it jams, taking the broken condition until you spend a standard to unjam it... etc etc etc. Sure, it does 2d6.. just like a great sword. But in the end of they day, its a great concept that was WASTED and probably won't be touched again.

Meanwhile, the greatsword doesn't have any of that mess. And since the only thing that either weapon offers really is damage (You didn't even put performance or frightful or anything on the chainsaw) Thats all that there is to compare is damage.

Its come to my attention, as many of you have seen, that often Paizo creates some feat, archtype, item, or such things.. only to have it not work. And this isn't just week choices, these are things that make you worse off for taking it than not, do nothing, or worse yet.. make the game worse just because it exists.

My Pathfinder Patch is intended to fix up a little of the wording hear and there for these things, and make them actually useful, usable and fun.

So, post all those bad feats, archetypes and the like, that could be thematically cool but are functionally broken!

Nothing to add?

Lately the Spell Slinger has been on my mind. So, I've been thinking.. What makes it so terrible?

First, what do you lose.. You loose all 0 level spells. You lose your arcane bond. You lose your school bonuses and bonus school spell. You lose two more schools (I know you can still memorize those spells, for two slots instead of one one.) You lose scribe scroll.

You gain a very dangerous way of firing spells out of your gun, gun prof, and gun smithing. You can also sacrifice spells to enchant your gun.

Overall, it feels like a waste.

So, how can we improve it?

Step One -

Instead of losing 4 schools, and cantrips -

Diminished Spell casting - You cast 1 fewer spells per day of all levels.
School of the Gun - instead of choosing a school, you are part of the school of gun. 2 schools are your 'banned' schools.

Truely, you're getting a 2spell per level hit here. You're still specializing in a 'school' but you aren't getting the bonus spell for it.

Then, the first power. You're sacrificing a spell to add an enhancement bonus onto your gun. Why oh why, do you also sacrifice all your cantrips too?

Lets say, you can't use cantrips on it. Done. Now is it needed to limit it to a number of uses per day beyond what the current amount of spells you can cast is? Diminished spell casting + not getting a school bonus spell, hurt that pretty well. So, lets keep that as is.

Sacrifice a spell, get its level in +X bonus. Simple. Done.

Now Arcane gun.. well, you ain't getting an eighth level ability like all the other schools do. Nor are you getting a basic ability from the school. So, I believe that is done too.

You can also select grit feats in place of wizard bonus feats.

My Version of It

Whoa, healing bullets. You just made a pathfinder borderlands 2 siren!

Anyways... It's a general consensus that spellslinger will never be amazing. But points for flavor.

Its kinda sad. It doesn't have to be mechanically amazing.. but flavorishly cool wouldn't be bad.

1 Caster level pen? A trait can get rid of that.

Firetream

This works with guns?

So, I'm told that spell slingers are not required to use just wizard spells through their guns.

I've thought about possibly building a duel pistol spell slinger that goes wordcaaster Oracle so he can shoot heal spells into his allies and harm spells into his enemies.

How to make this properly work?