Spellblade Magus Slinger


Rules Questions


Well here is a interesting idea..

Spellslinger - fire spells through barrel of gun
Blade bound Magus - spell combat, spell strike Black Blade
Sword cane Pistol - Oh look, I'm a gun /and/ a sword. And as long as I have one arcane point, I will never ever break.

Will this work?


How does make your black blade a double weapon work? If you can make the sword part of the sword cane a black blade and attune the gun part I would think it would work, though it would be a bit wonky I would think.


I don't really know.

Could you make a black blade Sword Cane Pistol? Or is that not allowed to work? That is the big question here.


Quote:
A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOpti ons/magus.html#_bladebound-%28archetype%29

Pistol, sword cane is a one-handed weapon that depending on how you use it does piercing or blunt damage. So it doesn't get in under one-handed slashing.

Pistol, sword cane is a different weapon than the Sword Cane, so that specific exception doesn't apply.

RAW, no.

RAI, I doubt it.


Oh, the sword cane only does piercing? Weird.

Grand Lodge

Very well then. A Pistol Dagger?


Espy Kismet wrote:
Very well then. A Pistol Dagger?

Assuming the dagger portion is as a standard dagger, then that should work.


I'd have to talk it with GMs I guess.

Sword cane.. the image in my head is pretty awesome. But if I had to do dagger..

Full attack in melee, use spell combat, and range spell strike to attack someone at a distance with bullet and spell.

Or Full Attack, Spell combat, Spellslingers ability to fire a cone, line, or a ray outside of touch reach of the pistol dagger/sword cane.

Or full attack, spell combat, normal spell strike.

Even if the black blade doesn't work.. well, the sword cane pistol still functions for sooo much fun~

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'm pretty sure only blade portion of the weapon will be a blackblade because double weapons are considered two separate weapons for the purpose of enchantments...then again...sentient items affect the whole item, so I'm not sure about it.


While I actually think (though I'm not completely sure)the black blade part could work, it doesn't really DO that much wield a sword cane pistol.

Quote:
Full attack in melee, use spell combat, and range spell strike to attack someone at a distance with bullet and spell.

Doesn't work unless you also take the Myrmidarch Archetype (which is quite crippling combined with Bladebound, since it means you wont have any Magus Arcana until level 10 (9 magus +1 wizard)). Though it is admittedly one of the few ways to cheese ranged spellstrike into working with Spellcombat, but if you are using Ranged Spellstrike, you are no longer using the Spellslinger ability (not even the attack bonus, as 2 enhancement boni don't stack).

Quote:


Or Full Attack, Spell combat, Spellslingers ability to fire a cone, line, or a ray outside of touch reach of the pistol dagger/sword cane.

You can fire a cone/line/ray etc, but you can do that either way with Spell combat, so where is the gain here? (besides the enhancement bonus to saves).

Quote:


Or full attack, spell combat, normal spell strike.

No gain from the pistol here.

Don't understand me wrong, the concept is quite interesting. But from a purely mechanical point of view you are only exchanging some BAB, 1 Casterlevel and Magus Ability advancement for a small bonus on saves with ranged spells (which are quite weak on a Magus either way and thus almost never used if you are not a Myrmidarch (in which case the spellslinger bonus doesn't work). And Myrmidarch is still broken in the sense of "some abilites don't make any sense as written". You will thus need some GM calls here.).

Grand Lodge

Teller of Tales wrote:

While I actually think (though I'm not completely sure)the black blade part could work, it doesn't really DO that much wield a sword cane pistol.

Quote:
Full attack in melee, use spell combat, and range spell strike to attack someone at a distance with bullet and spell.

Doesn't work unless you also take the Myrmidarch Archetype (which is quite crippling combined with Bladebound, since it means you wont have any Magus Arcana until level 10 (9 magus +1 wizard)). Though it is admittedly one of the few ways to cheese ranged spellstrike into working with Spellcombat, but if you are using Ranged Spellstrike, you are no longer using the Spellslinger ability (not even the attack bonus, as 2 enhancement boni don't stack).

Quote:


Or Full Attack, Spell combat, Spellslingers ability to fire a cone, line, or a ray outside of touch reach of the pistol dagger/sword cane.

You can fire a cone/line/ray etc, but you can do that either way with Spell combat, so where is the gain here? (besides the enhancement bonus to saves).

Actually that is what you are using spell combat for. To gain that Bonus to the DC's of your spells or AB on your ranged touch spells. You also /keep/ them ranged touch spells. So a +5 +14 to attack, you're looking at a +19 on ranged touch attacks without other mods.

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Quote:


Or full attack, spell combat, normal spell strike.

No gain from the pistol here.

Don't understand me wrong, the concept is quite interesting. But from a purely mechanical point of view you are only exchanging some BAB, 1 Casterlevel and Magus Ability advancement for a small bonus on saves with ranged spells (which are quite weak on a Magus either way and thus almost never used if you are not a Myrmidarch (in which case the spellslinger bonus doesn't work). And Myrmidarch is still broken in the sense of "some abilites don't make any sense as written". You will thus need some GM calls here.).

Spellslinger still works with or without Myrmidarch. Just one way you fire a bullet with a spell, the other way you don't. Pretty much that is all you're doing when you get myrmid.


Espy Kismet wrote:


Actually that is what you are using spell combat for. To gain that Bonus to the DC's of your spells or AB on your ranged touch spells. You also /keep/ them ranged touch spells. So a +5 +14 to attack, you're looking at a +19 on ranged touch attacks without other mods.

Thats exactly what I said, the only thing the spellslinger changes is a small bonus on DC's because the rest can already be done with Spellcombat.^^

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Spellslinger still works with or without Myrmidarch. Just one way you fire a bullet with a spell, the other way you don't. Pretty much that is all you're doing when you get myrmid.

The thing is, if you use the ranged spellstrike ability of the Myrmidarch, the added enhancement bonus to attack rolls of the Spellslinger does not work, since you already get the full bonus and multiple boni don't stack.

Meaning if you use Ranged Spellstrike, the spellslinger is doing nothing (besides having cost you a level).

Don't understand me wrong, I'm not saying that a sword cane pistol magus doesn't work. All I'm saying is that the one Spellslinger level does nothing for you, besides giving a small bonus to DC's with those few ranged spells that the magus has. It does not open up any new actions.


You could go with Myrmidarch Magus, to get ranged Spellstrike, and get synergy there.


one-handed slashing weapon.

read it over and over again!

now go look on the list of 1-handed slashing weapons.

do you see dagger pistol or sword cane pistol?

then you can use it. Otherwise you cant.

I think double weapons are not found on that list!

Grand Lodge

1 handed Slashing weapon or Rapier or Sword cane.


Teller of Tales wrote:
Espy Kismet wrote:


Actually that is what you are using spell combat for. To gain that Bonus to the DC's of your spells or AB on your ranged touch spells. You also /keep/ them ranged touch spells. So a +5 +14 to attack, you're looking at a +19 on ranged touch attacks without other mods.

Thats exactly what I said, the only thing the spellslinger changes is a small bonus on DC's because the rest can already be done with Spellcombat.^^

Quote:


Spellslinger still works with or without Myrmidarch. Just one way you fire a bullet with a spell, the other way you don't. Pretty much that is all you're doing when you get myrmid.

The thing is, if you use the ranged spellstrike ability of the Myrmidarch, the added enhancement bonus to attack rolls of the Spellslinger does not work, since you already get the full bonus and multiple boni don't stack.

Meaning if you use Ranged Spellstrike, the spellslinger is doing nothing (besides having cost you a level).

Don't understand me wrong, I'm not saying that a sword cane pistol magus doesn't work. All I'm saying is that the one Spellslinger level does nothing for you, besides giving a small bonus to DC's with those few ranged spells that the magus has. It does not open up any new actions.

The thing is though, for Ranged Spell strike, you have to fire a bullet. Which means you're attack the full ac, unless you're within 10 feet. Spellslinger, you're no longer attacking the full ac, cause you're attacking the touch ac again. In addition, you can fire multiple ray spells via spellslinger right at level one without any loss of rays. While you could only get 1 or 2 if you use imp ranged spell strike.

Range Spell Strike simply adds a bullet to the spell, and can increase the amount of AC needed to hit over Spellslinger's ability, making it easier to miss. While spell slinger could allow you to fight someone in melee, and then blast someone 400+ feet away with an acid arrow as part of spell combat.


No, spellslinger does not do that. For one simple reason:
you can do that either way, even without spellslinger

A completely vanilla magus can spellcombat with his meele weapon and cast for example a scorching ray at another target.

All spellslinger does for you is a slight bump to the attack roll. And the number of cases where that is worth a lost level is quite low.


How is up to +5 to the attack roll/DC of the spell 'a slight bump unworthy of losing a level'?

Feats out there only provide +1 to the attack roll or to the DC.

Yes, one could not cast through the weapon. And therefor not get the enhancement bonus. One could have been a full wizard as well, and just been effective that way.

And really though though the combination of mage bullets, arcane pool and the actual enchantment on the gun.. it should be pretty often you're running around with a +5 barrel.

I'm trying to understand it here, why doing this would be such a drastically subpar option.. cause when I look at it, you get 5 feats of weapon focus (ray), 5 feats of spell focus (ray cone line) exotic weapon prof, gunsmithing, and a secondary way to boost your weapon. In addition to the x3 critical on ray spells if you go one gun.


Because it is only in a very tight set of circumstances, that is if a magus casts a ranged attack spell (which are usually not as good as the melee touch ones).

And you also would have to spend money on the gun, too (in addition to your normal weapon. Remember that one can use the Pool only on one weapon and I'm not sure that he can sacrifice magus spells for Magic Bullets (though I don't find anything that forbids it. Though there is a typo in Magic Bullet that would make the whole ability useless since you don't have an Arcane Bond...)).
And you get the missfire chance handed on top.
So yes, you get a higher chance to hit with scorching rays etc (which were already almost sure to hit) and a slightly higher crit multiplier (on spells that only crit on 20). The higher DC should pretty much never come up since there are not really that many spells on the Magus list to which it applies.
But you've still lost: 1 BAB (bringing the actual maximum bonus from the gun down to +4), 1 level of Casting and Ability progression and the resources you had to spend to get the gun enchanted (be it gold or spellslots/actions). And if you roll a 1, you'll have to spend an hour fixing your gun.
So, well, IF you are casting ranged spells every round while standing in meele it could be worth it, but for a normal Magus it isn't.
And if you are either way only using ranged spells, then you should go wizard.

Also, there is one thing that I just noticed: it actually can't be combined with Spellcombat:
"While wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand."

Sword Cane Pistols are (as Darkflame pointed out) sadly only classified as "one handed firearms" and nowhere as meele weapons. Thus they can't be combined with spellcombat. (Which should not stop anyone from asking his DM to allow it).


Teller of Tales wrote:


Sword Cane Pistols are (as Darkflame pointed out) sadly only classified as "one handed firearms" and nowhere as meele weapons. Thus they can't be combined with spellcombat. (Which should not stop anyone from asking his DM to allow it).

The larger spellslinger/magus conversation is beyond me, but in the text it has language that it "can be used as" a dagger, which means it should work.


As far as I know, that is only in the Dagger Pistol, not in the Sword Cane one. Though as I said, even if RAW it's not possible, I as a GM would allow to use it.

Also don't take my rumbling to discourage you from playing one. Just because I think think it is weaker than straight magus does not mean it is no fun.


Teller of Tales wrote:
As far as I know, that is only in the Dagger Pistol, not in the Sword Cane one.

It does, but it doesn't help.

The first line in the pistol, sword cane entry reads:

Quote:
A combination weapon, this gun mixes a coat pistol with a sword cane (Advanced Player's Guide 179)

So it references back to the actual sword cane rules to tell you how to wield the weapon.

But since the sword cane does piercing damage and there's no exemption for the pistol sword cane, it's not RAW to treat it as bladebound legal, unlike the dagger.


Just because it mixes both does not mean it is either (as far as classifications go).
Note that the sword canes text differs here from EVERY other "mix" weapon.

Grand Lodge

An hour fixing my gun? Nope!

Mending and Quick Clear reduce it to just a standard action. Jury rig just out right prevents it.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, without GM discretion.. This idea sucks.

Every single time that you use a cane sword pistol you'll provoke an attack of opportunity.


Ævux wrote:

Well, without GM discretion.. This idea sucks.

Every single time that you use a cane sword pistol you'll provoke an attack of opportunity.

How so? they are double weapons and the firearm section ONLY gives stats for the firearm end. For the other end you use the stats for the melee weapon.

So the full stats for a cane sword pistol is d3/d4 (s), d4/d6(m), x3/x2, 10'/-, miss 1(5')/-, cap(1)/-, B+P/P.

You can stab all day and not provoke.

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