Any other advice from folks or comments? Maybe I should give summaries of the plannar subtypes available.
While I do have the normal 6 you are familiar with (Oread, Sylph, et-al elemental races, Tieflin and Aasimar) I also decided to work up ones for fae influenced folk, partial undead that aren't all dhampir, and four new ones for the oft unused paraelemental planes, aka the border elemental planes of Ice, Storms, Magma, and Murk.
Would an ability summary here on the forums interest people? Obviously it's all in the document, but folks seem disinclined to read that so far.
my only comment on the first race is that it contains a lot descriptive text (just a statement and not a critical review). Paragraph headings/ability description titles are not well defined/styled and missing at times. The mechanics are couched in descriptive text to the point of being unclear.
The font is large at 14pt. Maybe 10 or 12? Use 105-115% line spacing.
I personally dislike two column style but it is useful where there are a lot of short statements and paragraph breaks or indents such as lists or definitions. It's also helpful if there will be artwork inserted in the column. If the art goes across both columns then you lose the advantage. If there are more than 20-30 words per paragraph(text before a line return/break) it's not helpful.
I appreciate the formatting help, it is one of the things I struggle with. The 14 font has largely been a compromise between my dyslexia and my hatred of dyslexic friendly fonts lol.
I suppose I put the descriptive text into the abilities when it felt like I needed to clarify why an ability was being given, without having to have a block of text at the end of the lore section just going "And here follows my list of while lore supported, still quite convenient reasons for the below abilities."
Any suggestions on how to better format this? Perhaps have the ability name, then it's effect, then perhaps the explanations below? Maybe in a smaller text, italicized, with a sort of written proze form akin to the excerpt style openings for each race? Or that could just be me indulging my writer self too much and getting in the way of the actual content lol. I'm open to any suggestions but when I do my next big pass I'm gonna put this on the to-do list along with developing feats/spells for the various races.
I'm sure if this ever got sent to an editor or the like it would absolutely get shredded for stuff like that and not being formatted in a way that is rather "book-like". But I also guess it's probably something I should concern myself with more now that the volume of what I've written has reached this length.
Do y'all have any suggestions for dyslexia friendly fonts (times new roman was chosen not due to being dyslexia friendly but because it's what I am used to) that don't look, well bad?
As far as artwork is concerned I'd need to actually get some made if I ever wanted to include that. I know some may suggest using some AI generative stuff but as a lifelong writer the stuff just feels wrong to me so that's not on the table.
I appreciate folks taking the time to read my stuff and give suggestions. I'll put in a few of the formatting changes suggested soon.
Pretty cool! I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet, but I liked what I've seen. Your a daft hand and lore and world building. I was particularly excited for your mouse-like race, I'm always on the hunt for good options for that concept.
I'd be very interested to see if someone could stat these races using RP. They seem strong, but not super broken. For instance, with the mouse types, wether it was be design or not, you effectively blocked any pocket blaster shenanigans.
Thanks for sharing your creations.
Yes indeed lol. That was a hard learned lesson. Balancing the Lioria was one of the more difficult things I did over the years. I absolutely adore the idea of a race that can change their size to be smaller and all the amazing things that provides you RP wise, but when you let them cast while tiny there is just no way to balance it where you don't just end up with "Wizards, but with +2 AC at attack bonus"
Thanks for the compliment! I'm just glad to know the link works, I couldn't tell if I'd gotten no comments because it was broken or because it was too overwhelming for folks to dig into quickly.
Like I said above feel free to steal or use anything I provide here!
As far as stating them with RP I've never really tried, I think the Tunner were the first ones I put together and the last ones I tried to use RP for. I think the old thread should still be here on the forums somewhere. If I had to guess off the top of my head I'd say somewhere in the 15-25 range.
I tried an archaeologist bard and I struggled hard playing one
As for the tempest, I like that, but I hesitate to make it because I am still to this day lost on occult classes.
Occult classes are dumb easy.
Ignore that Psychic (Its the one that requires you include a bunch of other mechanics) and treat the rest like you would a pile of normal casters. Only real big difference is that instead of verbal and somatic components (E.g silence spell/tying hands will wreck those casters), they have emotion and though components (E.g instead shaken/similar conditions wreck these new casters)
Thats honestly the biggest difference. You don't need to include the occult skill unlocks, or the psychic duels (Terrible mechanic), or any of that other fluff. You just get a pile of new classes to add in.
- Kineticist: Its just a bender from avatar. Like thats it. Unless you go aether kineticist, in which case you just have the force, thats it.
- Occultist: Another class that basically gives the DM a free way to include weird items in the campaign. They cast through historical or personally important or mythical items. Skull of a dead king, dagger that killed their mother, you know the real easy juicy lore and backstory stuff for a DM. At higher levels you can do the bit from Supernatural and summon an outsider in a magic circle to ask it questions.
- Mesmerist: Have you seen naruto? Would you like a Sharingan? Well do I have good news for you! Thats it, thats the whole class. Lock eyes with things, cast definitely not ninjustu on them, do other eye based shenanigans.
- Medium: Channel dead folks through you to do cool stuff. Use spirits you can channel like a weird toolbox of "Guy who possesses me so I can climb walls and shit". But watch out! They can try and fully take control! Its like a skills based version of an intelligent weapon built straight into a class. Loads of fun.
- Psychic: Don't play these. They are full casters for psychic spells. The list is horribly unbalanced in multiple ways. They have bonuses to psychic battles, an entirely separate system other players who aren't occult casters can't take part in. Its terrible. Don't play them.
- Spiritualist: Don't play this one. They just tried, like they have 17 times, to revamp the summoner, but badly. If you specifically want to be a summoner with a ghost? Sure I guess.
I'd ask for work on a bard/rogue hybrid class but that's just the Archeologist Bard archetype lol. Or how I explain it to my players "A bard who can't bard so they can be a rogue that can't rogue" (No bardic performance or sneak attack)
…I could actually cook with a trickster class that combines magic and support of bard with debilitating attacks of a rogue (could be like a magus counterpart)
I could see that. But I was 1000% serious on the Archeologist Bard archetype. It is as good of a hybrid as I think we can get. Paizo seems like they were always hesitant about giving sneak attack damage to a casting class in general.
Archeologist Bard gets
- full spell progression
- rogue talents
- all the skills ever
- archeologists luck to replace bardic performance
- keeps bardic knowledge
That's just everything outside of performance and sneak attack. It's all the class features of both. I actually think it cuts less than a normal hybrid class does.
My real response though for a hybrid class would be I'd love to see stuff with the occult classes, because they just have so much raw funk and fun with them.
Tempest
Fighter/Kineticist hybrid
- full BAB/D10
- change tie from Con to Str/Dex
- reduced wild talents (equivalent to 4th level casters)
- slightly reduced blast damage (every 3 levels increase vs every other)
- bonus feats from a list tied to blasts or combat feats, possibly a way to take some of the combat focused wild talents and infusions in place of feats (kinetic blade, ect)
- same maximum burn but no ability to reduce it with charging
Gonna brainstorm some more. Gotta be something fun to do with the mesmerist
I'd ask for work on a bard/rogue hybrid class but that's just the Archeologist Bard archetype lol. Or how I explain it to my players "A bard who can't bard so they can be a rogue that can't rogue" (No bardic performance or sneak attack)
- Oruk: The closest to a "default" race in my setting. An amalgam of humans, orcs, elves, and a number of others who all mixed together following a massive disaster causing an evolutionary bottleneck. Extra skill points, bonus feat, DR against nonlethal damage.
- Gilemb: Leathery skinned salamander/sharklike peoples who were driven from deep underground by abominations. Possessing prehensile tails, adaptation for rocky terrain, and a breath weapon.
- Lioria: Mouselike smallfolk with a focus on community building and repair/reclimation of abandoned buildings and places. Ability to shrink themselves even smaller, stealth bonuses, basically the minish.
- Dollüg: Ooze that take on humanoid formes and feed off the psychic impressions left behind my sentient creatures. Go mad if isolated for too long from others. Can be medium or small size, ooze traits (with some obvious exceptions), detect thoughts at-will
- Aegolell: Owl-like humanoid birdfolk. Gain flight ability based on ranks in fly skill. Naturally good at stealth, get eschew materials as a bonus feat, claw attacks included.
- Dracolin: Humans taken before the great disaster and hybridized with dragons, due to dragons loosing their ability to age or reproduce. Draconic aging gives them faster ability score improvements, bonus spells per day, but also makes them require much more food than average.
- Gnoll: My own take on one of my favorite monsterous races. First of my list of "no default evil" races (because the idea is silly). Aligned with and in possession of instincts to located and follow leylines and their nexus points. Bonuses when in and around these nexuses. Able to grab an animal companion as a racial trait (1/3rd level). And I went ahead and gave them quills in their oversized names because I wanted them to have a bit more of a mythical beast vibe.
- Nyuama: Small fae creatures looking like bipedal hairless cats covered in tiny scales with gecko like tails. All members are in a symbiotic relationship with colonies of mushrooms that differentiate the different clans of nyuama from one another. Fae with the new (native) subtype, ability to cast a few SLA's, additional healing per day when resting, resistance to poisons, and a natural toxicity to their bodies.
- Hobgoblin: My second revamped "evil" race that is no longer stuck as such. Very lore focused in my world. Biggest ability gained from this lore focus is the ability to activate an effect similar to "Sanctuary" as an move action, but only for a couple of rounds a day, bonuses to crafting, armor, and an ability to adapt to their environment. Feedback here is welcome, I've somehow never had a player pick to play one so I don't have much play test experience with them
- Nellebrae: Tall angular lithe partial people partial construct race created by a god. Constructed portions of their bodies made from stone or wood, never metal. Limited number of them in the world at any point, when one dies another is brought into existence immediately. Natural armor bonuses, innate SR, resistances to force damage.
- Tunner: Bipedal Otterfolk with antlers, aligned to the moon and able to produce light from said antlers at-will. Natural focus towards community, construction, swimming, knowledge, and extremely complex family ties and webs of intermarried clans. Swim speed, tail slap ability, casting light at-will, enviotnmental adaptations, what amounts to a single level of bardic knowledge (can make checks untrained)
- Solan'Ecae: Medium sized plant/treefolk. Technically 3 symbiotic organisms working together, with the head being the one with actual intelligence, but the body and the stomach working together to move the three around and provide them with nutrients. Often find themselves given strange urges or quests by the innate force that animates them, having sprung up after the great disaster to repair and heal the world. Plant subtype (but most of the immunities cut), natural armor, an ability to learn spells that are cast on them by making a series of skill checks.
And those are the normal ones. Next up I'll detail the planar race subtypes. I have them set up to be layered "on-top" of the base races of my world, removing a set number of abilities from each one (usually the strongest or stronger abilities of that base race), to be replaced with selected traits from a list provided with the planar one.
Exactly what it says on the tin. One of my players reminded me recently I should share this here is case anyone else is interested or wants to use any of this. I can joke around about publishing or whatever but it's only ever gonna be for me and my players and others for free that I write all this, so hope y'all enjoy!
Anyways! Caveats before y'all get to telling me things I'm aware of:
- "These seem super overpowered!": Yes, I aim to give my players choice of race when building their character the strength of between 1 and 2 levels of a proper class. Consider these is conversation with each other, and perhaps not with the base races of the Core Rulebook
- "Are these the only races in your world?": As far as playable ones? Yes.
- "Why the higher power?": I prefer it that way. We tend to go extremely magic item light for my campaigns (as I know a number of DMs and players prefer) and setting them up this way has worked great in that sort of setting.
- "A lot of these abilities have to do with things like food consumption, environmental effects like heat and cold, and carrying capacity?": Well spotted! I absolutely adore playing games where these things are heavily factored in and as such built them to be a more core part of the experience from character building onward.
Outside of that, or if you even have additional questions on any of that, feel free to drop things here and I'll be happy to answer. I've been using these with some edits off and on to run a consistent game world between a bunch of groups over the course of about a decade. But only recently did this document reach a point of "done" where I feel pretty proud of it.
Hope y'all enjoy and let me know any thoughts you might have!
I definitely can't find what you are talking about. Links would be appreciated. Or more specifics. The statement "Combat Maneuver (Trip) Arcana" doesn't help me find anything. I can't find a Magus Arcana that gives trip, nor one that gifts a combat maneuver, nor one that gives a combat feat related to trip.
The best I can find is Maneuver Mastery, which lets you select a single combat maneuver (Such as trip) and use your magus level as your BaB for that maneuver. However this feat doesn't give you any bonus feat that requires combat expertise to get and doesn't give you any other bonus.
When a creature or PC uses the aid another action to add AC or an Attack Bonus to their allies what kind of attack roll against AC 10 are they making? Is it just BaB+Str. Do things like weapon focus or weapon finesse apply. How about animal companions using this with weapon finesse applied to natural attacks?
The relevant text:
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.
So if a player goes down to 0 and starts to die they loose a resolve point on each of their turns till they stabilize or die. The rules say that they need to use 1/4 of their maximum resolve to stabilize. But is that rounding up or down? If they have 5 maximum resolve would they need to use 2 points to stabilize or just the 1.
Okay so I didn't read that. Before I do could you use some formatting to break it up a little. BOLD could be helpful and also probably some spoilers. Gives you less of a
Updated for changes above. I'm also trying to think of racial class archetypes that would be good for a Tunner. Perhaps a ranger built around their swim speed and natural water adaptations? Thoughts?
Okay now this is some crazy good feedback. Thanks for the editing work turning what I wanted into proper rules jargon as I've had trouble in the past getting my rules lingo up to snuff. I especially appreciate the attention paid to the actual rave description and possible issues there with consistency and clarity.
So nearly all of the changes you suggested will be updated as I agree with most all of them. You were spot on with the assumption that built for the elements was so weirdly worded as I was looking to not stack with endurance.
I did not mean for there to be a blinding effect at all on lunar blast (since renamed) it was simply the wording I chose and didn't think about it's overlap with game terms.
My only argument is with accomplished swimmer. I suppose I wanted it to be a feat that typically wasn't good but supports the race and would be quite good for a specific archetype. I think I am going to combine your idea with it and reduce it to being able to be taken once and giving the 90 degree turn durring a charge while swimming.
In the unarmed damage section you say that he applies his dexterity to unarmed strikes. Is that attack, damage, or both. It looks pretty good
I was thinking both.
Just for the purpose of cutting down on feats make sure this is treated as having weapon finesse for the purpose of qualifying for feat prerequisites.
Also just a note from me but it seems like giving all these abilities at lvl 1 is very powerful. Although they are full round actions they are still save or suck sort of actions. Meaning either the player wastes their turn making 1 attack or completely cripples the opponent. I think there needs to be some kind of scaling with this ability outside of just adding more attacks if you want it for general use.
However if it's just for your one game you should be able to balance around it with no issue. The real worry is that I can dip a level into this and gain all these abilities immediately.
Now as a Naruto fan I have to point out there is no mention of rotation?!?!?! Or something regarding the lion fist techniques, or something vaugely like the byakugan. Got to say a bit disappointed at nothing on those
Humanoid Otters? Granted, didn't expect that, but not bad. Keen intellect seems a bit too much though.
Also, Tunner? how did you come up with that name?
The name I cannot remember. Of the 9 races I'm building this is the only one I've used in campaigns before. It's got to be 3 or 4 years old. The name and antlers are about the only thing that's stuck around.
What part of keen intellect is a bit much in your eyes? The ability to use knowledge checks untrained or the +2 bonus. I suppose this is better than a lvl 1 bard but my though was that it never scales up so it's only a minor buff in the long run.
Okay so I gave them a -2 to dex. My rational is that as a water based race they wouldn't be as graceful on land and their size bonus to AC means this won't be a huge detriment. I was thinking about doing strength but I'm worried it wouldn't be that much of a negative as the only skills it effects they have a massive bonus to 1 and they aren't exactly going to be pushing much damage being small sized anyways. Don't want to discourage strength based builds too much, plus small size favors Dex based builds already.
I changed moon glow to just be an (Ex) ability. Honestly I wasn't aware that these abilities had any effect in magical darkness of they did not dispel it. That's a misreading of the rules on my part.
Swim speed reduced to 40 ft as I would like them to be at least a little bit above average at swimming.
Otters aren't rodents! Shhgfedzsawfvhynmonb yup messed that up. Guess I just assumed.
Any further suggestions for feats or favored class bonuses? Having trouble being creative there.
It seems thematic but honestly I don't think I can help. I don't use summoning in my games as I feel it ends up with the GM fighting themselves. So I really don't have any meaningful input other than they look to be on CR for their caster level and they all seem fun and thematic for the setting. I do like skull and shackles and just that part of golarion in general.
Sorry no one posted on your post. I get the feeling. Sometimes I guess people just don't have anything to contribute?
It may be helpful to give people built in links to each of these creatures online? So they don't have to look it up to judge
I'd set the dc at 10+1/2 character level+either con or cha. You seem to be leaning cha. However is also qualify it with a once every 1d4 rounds. Space it out a little. At 5th level that's a pretty great effect for a fighter or the like so giving the 1d4 rounds means they can't always just spam it one after another. Other than that seems balanced.
So I'm building up a number of races for my homebrew campaign and was looking for feedback on the most complete of the 9 that I am working on. Link to the google doc is here
I could use feedback on the various racial traits I've selected and created on my own. I believe if I have done my math correctly the race comes out to 12 RP on the race builder but I could be off as I've altered a number a bit and I'm estimating on others.
So yeah just tell me what you all think. I'm looking for a balance level that is on par with core races and would love suggestions for further racial feats, favored class bonuses, or racial spells. Thanks for the help ahead of time everyone.
Enlarge person, dominate person, charm person, hold person, reduce person. These are the easy ones I can think of off the top of my head. But I'm sure there are more. Just anything that specifically targets humanoids.
Just to be 1000% sure you are aware that making skull kids fey does count out a number of spells and effects that could effect them. Both positively and negatively.
First off incorppreal the UMR grants a +1 deflection bonus to a.c. as default.
The larger version or even a small collection of these would be fun a few levels in but at low levels (read 1-4) these would be a little save or suck. The issue with incorppreal is that players can either kill them or simply can't. And sometimes at lower levels only 1 or 2 party members can touch them and this makes it frustrating for the rest. However this seems fairly well balanced at higher levels with most everyone will habe a way to hit them.
I don’t see how being Fey would keep skull kids from being certain classes? I have never seen races be restricted from any class. And there is nothing in the Wild shap ability to stop a fey druid. As for the twili, should I drop Dissalision’s Child and give them Shadow Travel?
And thank you Jader7777! And use it all you want, that’s the reason I’m working on this. Well that and using for my self as well lol.
Oh sorry i had fey immunities mixed up with plant immunities. Plants are immune to polymorph effects and therefore don't get use wildshape. Suppose fey type just makes any spell that designated the target as a huminoid as off limits. Such as enlarge person.
I'd say that fey blooded is pretty powerful in certain circumstances but actually keeps the Skull Kid race from being able to be a number of classes as it will negate their class features for not being humanoid. I believe the biggest issue here is druids and wildshape? But it may be a few others. They would be immune to enlarge person and a few other key buff spells.
Outside of that the skull kid looks good. Thumbs up.
The Twili look like they should work as is but I would probably swap out some features and give them a bonus to magics of with the Teleportation descriptor as that is something that every twili has shown to be capable of.
If you have a companion already while gaining a new one then does the class get one at 1st level? If they don't you still run into the same issues at 1st level.
Also you should really clarify that companions gained this way that are not listed on the base and extended druid companions are not eligible for the Feat boon companion. SERIOUS THIS CLASS GETS REALLY REALLY BROKEN WITH BOON COMPANION. Just to tell you Boon Companion raises the effective animal companion level of your animal companion by 4. Up to your character level.
In addition if you are looking at this class being able to have a number of different animal companions and not a lot else there isn't much effective difference between this class and a hunter pack master with good RP skills. I've had in my own personal games that I run my wife playing a Pack Master Hunter, when she went to gain a new companion she decided to use her RP skills to slowly gain the trust of a Dire Serval (Treated as a large Cat companion) and add it to her group. In effect this acts the same way but allows all your companions to be with you at the same time in combat. In that a Beast Heart would be strictly less powerful then a Hunter Pack Master and is filling only a slightly different niche then they would. Plus they get spells, and companion tricks, and hunter aspects, and bonus teamwork feats. Along with pretty much everything else you've already got.
The real bonus that you've come up with for this class is the ability to use the local creatures for local environments. Something that will always put you at a distinct advantage as they will be adapted to that environment. Like a mammoth having resistance to cold, or a monkey being able to climb and guide you through a ruined temple, or a beast of the sea helping to find air for you in an underwater maze. The possibilities of that are amazing. Dragging your companion from the last region or area into the new one runs into the same issues as the typical ranger/hunter/druid where their animal companion is usually (With the notable exception of winged creatures) at a disadvantage in certain environments. Examples are large creatures in cramped spaces, companions that can't scale or climb over things players will, heavy companions being harder to get over large gaps, most companions are useless in the water, the majority of the elemental planes are entirely off limits to most non-native animals. The possibilities of quickly picking up a companion in the new environment, and then being able to dismiss or hold onto that bond as you move to another environment is a huge bonus.
I completely get what you want to do with the class. And I respect that idea that you've got in mind for it. However if you try and execute it in that way it will simply end up outclassed at what it does by another subset of classes. Referring to the idea of having a small subset of companions and otherwise just having animals and beasts be friendly to him as he wanders about. Honestly at that point its just a Pack Lord Druid that only goes around with one companion and summons creatures to serve them in combat. But its worse because you can't just summon them and you don't get your extra animal companions automatically. And you can't have them all in combat at the same time.
Honestly I like all of them. They seem a bit on the heavy side as far as the race builder is concerned but they are all very well balanced with one another. You think about including races from other LoZ games or just leave it here.
Oh and I think you should change the Rito's class skills from acrobatics and perception to Fly And perception. I have a different write up for the Rito myself but it's a bit more complicated. It's based around giving players the fly ability slowly as they level so as to avoid how overpowered it is at lower levels.
Seriously though all of this looks great. I'd love to see more race adaptations from you.
Sorry, one more thought for all who care to read it.
Because I have such a varied view of what the class should do, other than that I want it to be able to recruit a variety of companions, maybe I can write it as a feat chain instead? This would allow any class with an animal companion (or maybe any class? hmmm...) to recruit new beasts that they encounter, and keep a small group of companions (but still only one with them at a time). For example, a druid could take this feat chain to basically gain the Beast's Pact class feature. This would allow the player to be druid, a ranger, a hunter, etc. but still get the roaming beast empath idea.
Thoughts? How might I format this feat chain? How many feats to make it completely functional? Is Beast's Pact too strong as a single feat?
So definitely not a good idea to do it as a feat. The idea sounds good but falls into the same path as a lot of other feats, they are either overpowered, or no one wants them.
The class feature is fat too powerful to be a single feat. It would need to be at least 3 or have a high number of fairly irrelevant (not ones players are already taking) to get. Think of it this way. To get improved familiar bond (A feat that gives you a full familiar no matter your class) you have to take iron will and familiar bond first. This means you've at least got to dump 2 if your feats into it just to get a familiar, assuming you wanted iron will.
Most players only get to maybe lvl 11 or 12. Long long games can go to higher or start higher but these are a lot rarer. I just don't think it would have value as a feat chain that is enough to justify the typical player to take it. I'm not a supporter of min maxing but it's honestly what a lot of people do.
I'd highly suggest you keep it as a class.
Also to further explain why I shortened the time it is because without shortening the time that means for 6 days (3 checks 2 days per check) the beast is actually less useful then a summoned creature in many ways. Having them be able to communicate with you and guide you is nice but also less useful then a survival check to find your way and casting speak with animals. Unless they have a way of actively using that animal in combat or scouting within a few hours of setting out the majority of parties are going to have a faster way to accomplish the same task. That's the only reason I changed it honestly. You need to have the Beast Heart bring more to the table in the immediate sense. In the long term you've got it down. But short term (combat length, 1 round, hours, minutes, ect) it brings very little and none of the short term benefits won't be overshadowed by other members.
Oh and I don't just mean wizards and clerics will overshadow. I get they can do just about everything.
Sorry it took so long I just got off work 2 hours ago! Anyways!
So full write up time.
First off I agree with the above two comments. Especially with the fact that you should really choose between magic means of accomplishing tasks and skill means. Being a class that I believe should be charisma based I would recommend skill based.
So my general view of this class is that it is a great idea and I really want to make it work and test it out. The idea of traveling around picking up animal companions as you go is something I've been interested in ever since the various Pack Master achetypes. But I have a few things I think you might want to look at to both balance out its power and increase the fun a player would have with it in play.
skills, BAB, HD, Saves, and Proficiencies:
Honestly I think your choice of d10 for HD and the full BAB progression that is tied into that is a good choice thematically for this class. It puts you on level footing with a number of other physically themed classes but you don't have enough direct combat bonuses for it to be a concern. You'll likely be slightly less directly competent in battle than your average ranger. However if you are looking to balance the class down and focus more on the animal companions you could always knock this down to a d8 and 3/4 progression. But honestly I wouldn't recommend that change.
Now you're saves on the other hand I would definitely change. Having good saves on both reflex and fortitude is rather powerful for a class that also is going to have a fair bit of health to work with. Almost all spells that deal direct damage and a large number of monster abilities and traps your GM would want to throw at you will require one of these two saves. By making these saves both good to start with and your health naturally pretty high. Seeing as you have no required ability investments on this write up of the class it would be easily for a player to invest in their CON and pick up toughness to become fairly tanky. Not to mention that you are going to have a number of animal companions that, while you and I would likely be quite sad to view our animal buddies this way, a less scrupulous player could view them as walking meat sacks of hit points. As you have added no penalty for loosing them. For these reasons I would suggest we have fortitude be the good save (Aligns more closely with the idea of being in the wild) and put reflex and will as normal saves.
With skills I suggest you reduce it to 4+int just for the sake of balance. As later in this I am going to suggest that Cha be the main stat of the class you will already have a fairly high score in the skills needed to use this class so you don't need such a high number of skills per level to balance it out.
with proficiencies I would suggest taking away martial weapons just to up the feeling of being of nature. Replace this with a Talent that gives you proficiency with martial weapons. Everything else can stay.
Beast's Pact Edits in Bold:
The beast heart knows what it is to be a part of the wild. Through fear or respect, the beastmaster can form a pact with other wild creatures. A beast masters Cha score must be higher than a creature who they are attempting to form a Beast's Pact with
The beast heart can attempt to recruit an animal companion using a series of Diplomacy or Intimidate checks. Whether you choose Diplomacy or Intimidate, all subsequent checks must be using that choice. The first check must succeed a DC of 15 + Creature’s CR. The DC is affected by the creature’s attitude towards the beast heart (see Table 1). If using Diplomacy, the DC increases as the creatures health decreases; if using Intimidate, the opposite is true (see Table 2). Additionally, for each step of the creature’s alignment differing from the beast heart’s, the DC increases by 4. The first check takes an hour of uninterrupted time with the creature. If the beast heart fails this check, he can try again in 24 hours.
Succeeding the first check begins the pact process. This process requires 3 successful checks to complete, each with a DC of 12 + Creature’s CR (no other modifiers apply here). Each check takes 1 hour and all three must be made within the course of no more than 3 days. If 3 checks fail, the creature flees (but does not become hostile immediately) and cannot become a companion. During this process, the creature follows the beast heart, but will not obey or fight for him; it can move, think, and hunt for itself, but may also be provided for by the beast heart. Upon the 3rd successful check, the creature becomes an animal companion. It follows normal animal companion rules, except as follows:
The creature is initially treated as level 1 for reference to the Animal Companion Base Statistic Table. As you level, the pact creature advances as indicated by the table. If the creature has a higher CR version, you can use those stats upon reaching the appropriate level (i.e. if you have a wolf (CR 1) at level one, at level 3 you can advance it to a dire wolf (CR 3), but doing so resets the creature’s effective Animal Companion level back to 1).
This ability can only be used on creatures with CR less than or equal to levels in beast heart.
A Beast Heart can have a number of companions equal to their Cha bonus+CL. However a Beast Heart can only have one companion with them at a time. Each companion cannot leave the territory that it calls home. The GM has ultimate control over the size of this territory but it typically consist of any like area in connection to where the companion was originally gained. This could be an entire forest, a mountain range, as large as an entire island or island chain, or as small as a single city or the area surrounding a small town. A bonded creature will not willingly leave this area and will not follow a Beast Heart's commands outside of this area, but is still considered to have a helpful attitude towards them.
A Beast Heart can at anytime dismiss a companion gained through Beast's Pact in a small ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. Although animals and beasts dismissed in this way may change or retain their attitude towards the Beast Heart at GM discretion
Additionally, at 4th level, this ability can be used to recruit magical beasts. The initial DC becomes 20 + Creature’s CR, and subsequent DCs become 17 + Creature’s CR. For every 1 Intelligence score over 7, the DCs increase by another 1. All other modifiers apply as normal.
A beast heart may begin play with an animal of CR ½, or with no companion. If you are not first character level when you take your first level in beastmaster, you do not automatically gain a companion. **However, if you are in a low creature campaign, the GM might allow you to gain a companion up to your CR that could be found in the campaign. The GM may also allow the beast heart to gain another pact mate upon leveling up (at even levels) for the same reason.
So the idea behind my alterations to the Beast's Pact ability are to try and make it much more flexible to the idea of traveling from area to area and forming alliances with Beasts and Animals as you travel. The idea of a check taking 2 days does make sense from a making friends with them way but no party ever will want to wait around for them to do that everywhere they go. So I have reduced it to 2 hours. Still a long amount of time but the sort of thing that can be done on a down day or in preparation for something specific. This lets the GM come up with events that can involve the entire party in the acquisition of a new Beast's Pact companion.
example:
Such as seeking out and tracking down a specific animal to help escort the party up a dangerous path to an ancient temple. The Beast Heart suggests that they track down a dangerous predator that has left evidence of them traversing this path. The party then gets to hunt them down in a number of subsequent encounters or battles and help the Beast Heart either intimidate the beast or convince it to help them.
This allows the Beast's Pact companions to become more then just a mechanical feature and a swap out companion. They become a creature that the entire party knows and has likely helped them. Like an NPC that doesn't directly talk and the GM doesn't really have to keep track of.
Player "Well what has the snow leopard been up to?"
Gm "Well hes a snow leopard. Sooooo yeah. Hunting? Not much."
I also want to reiterate that I agree with the above sentiment that giving the ability to take a 10 at lvl one is crazy, and taking a 20 and lvl 11 is insane. Those definitely need drastically increased.
The level for casting dominate person but with animals also needs increased. To at least 10th level. And you should clarify that it uses their Cha bonus+their class lvl for the save.
However that's only if you keep it. Honestly I would remove the lesser Geas and the dominate animal parts and just give other bonuses to making friends with local animals. Perhaps having a bond with the a local animal or beast gives you a rangers favored terrain bonus at a low level equivalent when traveling with them.
My final question is why do they start at lvl 0 with the pact? Is this a method to allow them to be continually upgrading companions they get at low levels and yet be able to pick up higher CR creatures as they go along and keep them all relatively balanced? Just looking for clarification.
Could I get some help from someone more money experienced in money value in pathfinder? Its actually the one thing I've had to completely throw out in my home games as I just can seem to get a handle on how money should work and what all stuff should cost via typical pathfinder rules.
I would definitely say using the circle to make a wand or other magic item shouldn't be a huge deal. The item would cost the same amount as it only lowers the spell slot that spell uses. It doesn't make Fireball's level 2. It just lets you use a 2nd level spell slot to cast it.
You did specifically say that a prepared caster would make use of this. I definitely think that prepared casters gain a much larger benefit from this as they can take their spells and head off again. As far as spontaneous casters does anyone have suggestions to make this better for them? Maybe something that lets them store those lower slots?
so barb lvl 5 gives you +5. While raging you get +4 strength so +2. +4 for your normal Str. Weapon focus +1. -6 for main hand and -10 for all off hands with multiweapon fighter. +2 from accurate stance while raging. I would assume you are getting masterwork weapons for each so +1 (Pretty cheap for you level. Only 1200 to masterwork all 4). And Joutungrip gives you a -2 for weilding them all one handed. So the numbers come out to 5+4+2+1+2+1-6-2 for main hand and 5+4+2+1+2+1-10-2 for the other three hands.
So it should be +7 on your main hand and +3 for all off hand attacks. But this is only while raging. If you are not raging these bonuses drop by 4 each between strength and accurate stance putting you at +3 and -1 respectively.
Honestly I would suggest that you don't put any levels past unlocking jotungrip into barbarian. If you've already done these 5 in Barbarian I'd say go over to fighter for further levels. This will allow you to pick up bonus combat feats and qualify for things like greater weapon focus and weapon specialization and things of that nature. Honestly all the fighter abilities to spec very hard into one particular weapon would do you an amazing amount of good when it comes to buffing your attack and damage rolls.
Hey so I did a massive write up of this and my computer just randomly died for no apparent reason before I could post it. So give me a bit and I'll have it back up. Big question before I write the whole thing up is this.
The general idea here is that the Beast Heart travels from location to location gathering animals companions through sheer force of will. Getting different ones in different ares as needed correct?
Also above all I want to say I love this class idea and can't wait to work on it. And pooossssibly use it in my own home games if you don't mind
Hey so I posted this whole thing in the homebrew section but was looking for feedback. And honestly it seems like that community is rather inactive? Don't know maybe they just weren't interested.
So this is a material I am trying to develop for my homebrew setting and I've got it pretty much hacked out but I'm looking for more feedback from more experienced GM's and players. (I've only played for about 4 years)
So I'd like to say I'm sorry about how I had to reformat the tables. I tried to make them work in the forums but that just wouldn't transfer or space out properly. But this should be a fairly finished write up of my idea. Sorry if some stuff doesn't have any context but a lot of the fluff is history stuff and racial stuff from my setting. But none of it matter mechanically so here we go!
Deaghnàth Lace:
This rare metal is one of the most expensive materials known to the mortals of Elrahst. Its harvesting is a very expensive and difficult process that involves the smelting of the heavy metal Bismuth together with trace amounts of lead and gold. After this metal is heated until molten crystals specifically aligned with the elemental or outer planes are inserted into it in a very precise orientation. After this the metal needs to be treated with the blood of a Hyade, meaning the creation of this metal is entirely limited to willing Hyade donating their blood for profit, or from far less reputable sources. Due to this ability Deaghnath Lace has always had a mixed history of its legality to buy or even own. In the current age the Lace is well controlled by the empire in both its production and its sale but it is available for high costs. However its military use means that those who wish to use it to create ritual circles outside of buildings directly under empire control must obtain a special contract to even obtain the metal. Deaghnath Lace has the ability to assist in the channeling of the arcane or even divine energies needed to cast spells. It accomplishes this by channeling power into the caster with a much greater focus and force than the typical process of drawing energy from the planes and various natural forces. The material has gained its name from the extremely fine designs and sigils that are crafted out of it to form ritual circles. The effects of Deaghnath Lace are determined by the kind of attunement used within its crystals, the type of ritual circle, and the size of the ritual circle.
A. Level of Ritual Circle
B. Cost of crafting the circle
C. Spell levels that have their level reduced by 1
D. Spell levels that have their level reduced by 2
E. Size required for Ritual Circle
A. 1
B. 35,000 GP
C. Level 2 spells
D. N/A
E. 10x10 FT circle
A. 2
B. 95,000 GP
C. Level 3&lower spells
D. N/A
E. 15x15 FT circle
A. 3
B. 225,000 GP
C. Level 5&lower Spells
D. Level 3&lower Spells
E. 25x25 FT circle
A. 4
B. 350,000 GP
C. Level 7&lower Spells
D. Level 4&lower Spells
E. 40x40 FT circle
A. 5
B. 750,000 GP
C. Level 9&lower Spells
D. Level 5&lower Spells
E. 60x60 FT circle
Attunement of Crystals
Spell Schools, Subtypes, and Descriptors Effected by the Circle
The 9 Hells
Evil, Law, Fire, Enchantment
The Abyss
Darkness, Evil, Chaos, Necromancy
Heaven
Good, Law, Light, Abjuration
Elysium
Good, Chaos, Divination, Cold
Plane of Fire
Fire, Evocation, Light, Healing
Plane of Air
Electric, Illusion, Air, Creation
Plane of Water
Cold, Water, Evocation, Darkness
Plane of Earth
Earth, Transmutation, Creation, Scrying
Positive Energy Plane
Healing, Light, Glamer, Conjuration
Negative Energy Plane
Necromancy, Darkness, Shadow, Figment
The creation of a Ritual Circle made from Deaghnàth Lace is a long and drawn out process that involves a number of expensive magical rituals (Cost included in the costs above) that take place over the course of a number of days or even weeks. The time it takes is equal to 1 day x the level of ritual circle squared. The crafting of this circle requires a Knowledge Arcana check once a day during its creation. The DC of this check is equal to 15+(5x the level of circle doubled). It also requires a single DC 20 Craft or Profession check in a related field to the material the Ritual Circle is being set into (Such as Craft(Stone) when set into a castle tower). In addition once one of these circles in constructed specifically for the location in question as it must be built in such a way as to tap into and redirect the natural leylines and other sources of magical energy in the area. In rare cases these circles can be transported to new locations and altered slightly to work. This however requires a DC 30 Knowledge Arcana check and has only a 10% chance of working at all, and once altered in this way the circle can never be relocated again without being entirely rebuilt. If a circle is rebuilt from the remains of an old circle of the same level it can be done much more easily, only costing a 1/4th as much as creating a brand new ritual circle. However the remade circle must be of the same planar attunement as the circle it has taken its materials from.
A Ritual circle reduces the level of spells listed under its Planar Attunement by either 1 or 2 levels as determined by its level. No spell may be reduced in this manner or with a combination of other feats or spells to a level under 1st. Thus no spell that was not already a 0-level spell can be made to act as a 0-level spell. A caster must be within the confines of the ritual circle to spontaneously cast spells at these lower levels. In addition a spontaneous caster may only cast a number of spells per day in this fashion equal to their caster level. Prepared casters garner slightly more use from these circles but have a harder time holding their power in. Prepared casters that take the time to prepare their spells within the confines of a ritual circle can prepare up to ½ their caster level (Minimum 1) worth of spells in spell slots with their new adjusted level. These spells remain in these slots even if the caster moves outside of the ritual circle.
What I'm looking for is for people to take a look at this and help me hash out what issues there would be with the current write up. E.G. particularly powerful or game breaking spells with this method, whether as a PC you would even be interested in this sort of set up and why or why not, if you as a GM would run this what would you change and what would you be hesitant about, and overall how would you suggest to balance this out if you think its unbalanced. I would like to say I want to keep at least some element of being able to reduce spell levels and not just swap it with another effect. Although severely limiting this effect or blending it with metamagic sounds extremely interesting and I'd love to hear peoples ideas.
I will try and update with a new post in Spoilers anytime we update something and I'm hoping to let this develop a bit as a community project to figure out the most optimal way to write up this material. Thanks for the time to read this super long post!
So just to be super clear you want to keep familiar like bonuses, like those you get from a bonded item, but specifically get rid of the small animal following them around? What is exactly the issue with this small animal friend so we know how we can go about removing them without intersecting without some other issue
So a few things. I like this as an archetype quite a bit. Doesn't seem too overpowered compared to stuff we already have. But it does still keep in mind the balance issues that come up when trying to have a construct companion. But I think you overlooked that Alchemists do not get Mending or Make Whole, spells basically required to have construct companions, by default. I would recommend adding them and similar spells such as jury-rig (For small constructed items), and perhaps a few more thematic spells. Perhaps pull some stuff from the Artifice domain?
My other thought is something similar to the way a certain cleric archetype (Can't remember the exact one but I believe it was in the tech guide) had the ability to heal constructs with healing type spells (Cure, Heal, ECT...). They split the healing they did in half for any of these spells, no matter the target. But this healing could affect constructs as if they were living creatures. That should make it much easier to repair and heal your construct buddy. Which is a huge issue in pathfinder if your GM is running the rules without a lot of homebrewing, because Constructs cost a load of money and don't have a load of health and are much lower CR then they should be in my opinion for their cost.
So I'd like to say I'm sorry about how I had to reformat the tables. I tried to make them work in the forums but that just wouldn't transfer or space out properly. But this should be a fairly finished write up of my idea. Sorry if some stuff doesn't have any context but a lot of it is history stuff and racial stuff from my setting. But none of it matter mechanically so here we go!
Deaghnàth Lace:
This rare metal is one of the most expensive materials known to the mortals of Elrahst. Its harvesting is a very expensive and difficult process that involves the smelting of the heavy metal Bismuth together with trace amounts of lead and gold. After this metal is heated until molten crystals specifically aligned with the elemental or outer planes are inserted into it in a very precise orientation. After this the metal needs to be treated with the blood of a Hyade, meaning the creation of this metal is entirely limited to willing Hyade donating their blood for profit, or from far less reputable sources. Due to this ability Deaghnath Lace has always had a mixed history of its legality to buy or even own. In the current age the Lace is well controlled by the empire in both its production and its sale but it is available for high costs. However its military use means that those who wish to use it to create ritual circles outside of buildings directly under empire control must obtain a special contract to even obtain the metal. Deaghnath Lace has the ability to assist in the channeling of the arcane or even divine energies needed to cast spells. It accomplishes this by channeling power into the caster with a much greater focus and force than the typical process of drawing energy from the planes and various natural forces. The material has gained its name from the extremely fine designs and sigils that are crafted out of it to form ritual circles. The effects of Deaghnath Lace are determined by the kind of attunement used within its crystals, the type of ritual circle, and the size of the ritual circle.
A. Level of Ritual Circle
B. Cost
C. Reduced by 1
D. Reduced by 2
E. Size Required for Ritual Circle
A. 1
B. 35,000 GP
C. Level 2
D. N/A
E. 10x10 FT circle
A. 2
B. 95,000 GP
C. Level 3&lower
D. N/A
E. 15x15 FT circle
A. 3
B. 225,000 GP
C. Level 5&lower
D. Level 3&lower
E. 25x25 FT circle
A. 4
B. 350,000 GP
C. Level 7&lower
D. Level 4&lower
E. 40x40 FT circle
A. 5
B. 750,000 GP
C. Level 9&lower
D. Level 5&lower
E. 60x60 FT circle
Attunement of Crystals
Spell Schools, Subtypes, and Descriptors Effected by the Circle
The 9 Hells
Evil, Law, Fire, Enchantment
The Abyss
Darkness, Evil, Chaos, Necromancy
Heaven
Good, Law, Light, Abjuration
Elysium
Good, Chaos, Divination, Cold
Plane of Fire
Fire, Evocation, Light, Healing
Plane of Air
Electric, Illusion, Air, Creation
Plane of Water
Cold, Water, Evocation, Darkness
Plane of Earth
Earth, Transmutation, Creation, Scrying
Positive Energy Plane
Healing, Light, Glamer, Conjuration
Negative Energy Plane
Necromancy, Darkness, Shadow, Figment
The creation of a Ritual Circle made from Deaghnàth Lace is a long and drawn out process that involves a number of expensive magical rituals (Cost included in the costs above) that take place over the course of a number of days or even weeks. The time it takes is equal to 1 day x the level of ritual circle squared. The crafting of this circle requires a Knowledge Arcana check once a day during its creation. The DC of this check is equal to 15+(5x the level of circle doubled). It also requires a single DC 20 Craft or Profession check in a related field to the material the Ritual Circle is being set into (Such as Craft(Stone) when set into a castle tower). In addition once one of these circles in constructed specifically for the location in question as it must be built in such a way as to tap into and redirect the natural leylines and other sources of magical energy in the area. In rare cases these circles can be transported to new locations and altered slightly to work. This however requires a DC 30 Knowledge Arcana check and has only a 10% chance of working at all, and once altered in this way the circle can never be relocated again without being entirely rebuilt. If a circle is rebuilt from the remains of an old circle of the same level it can be done much more easily, only costing a 1/4th as much as creating a brand new ritual circle. However the remade circle must be of the same planar attunement as the circle it has taken its materials from.
A Ritual circle reduces the level of spells listed under its Planar Attunement by either 1 or 2 levels as determined by its level. No spell may be reduced in this manner or with a combination of other feats or spells to a level under 1st. Thus no spell that was not already a 0-level spell can be made to act as a 0-level spell. A caster must be within the confines of the ritual circle to spontaneously cast spells at these lower levels. In addition a spontaneous caster may only cast a number of spells per day in this fashion equal to their caster level. Prepared casters garner slightly more use from these circles but have a harder time holding their power in. Prepared casters that take the time to prepare their spells within the confines of a ritual circle can prepare up to ½ their caster level (Minimum 1) worth of spells in spell slots with their new adjusted level. These spells remain in these slots even if the caster moves outside of the ritual circle.
In fairness, you can powergame pretty hard even with just the CRB. XD God Wizards, yo.
Specific rules text definitely helps if you want a reaction. I might add something about "attuning" to a given location - for, say, a month - before it works at all. That should pretty firmly discourage attempts to cart it around.
Now attuning is something I didn't even think about. Okay I'll get a rough idea wrote up in what little bit of rules text I actually speak and post it up here tonight
Honestly because I like the idea of players being able to upgrade their base or hideout or castle or what have you in such a way as to make spells easier to cast inside this location. It also has interesting applications from a world building perspective in military campaigns and the like. I'm really just looking for advice on how to make sure it doesn't get very easily broken. I'm aware we are playing pathfinder which means if the players want to break the game they very well can. Saying "Oh well if you are worried about it being broken why make it?" Is like saying "Well if you are worried about people power gaming why not just ban everything but the CRB?"
Its a homebrew message board. We aren't here to not take risks.
So I working up homebrew materials for my campaign setting. I came upon the idea of a material that, while rather expensive, could be used to reduce the level of a cast spell.
Now I'm not saying you carry around X rock and now you've got 2nd level fireball or cantrip shocking grasp. I'm well aware that will fail horrifically and end with spellcasters being even more powerful. My thought it that it would be based in the idea that this material had to be in a set location and you need quite a lot of it to do much of anything.
So as it stands the ideas I have are as follows.
-The material would be prohibitively expensive to get enough of it to make a real difference. Think level 8-10 to even get enough of it to reduce a spell by a single level.
-The material would merely channel magic through it and as such requires a very very specific alignment to its placement to do much of anything. Think of a ritual circle made of the stuff sitting in an arch-mages tower.
-The material would be very very dense and heavy for its weight. In addition ritual circles made from it would need to be rather large. The idea here is to prohibit PC's from strapping the things to the sides of animal companions or just getting a rather large wagon to carry this slab of magic about. Another alternative to this is that the material could be fairly toxic to be around for long periods of time, requiring specific rooms in bases and castles to mitigate its effects.
The big idea is that this material would be used in large castles, mage towers, perhaps in extremely large magical siege weapons, and anywhere else the PC's would go through the trouble of placing it. It would then be used to cast spells at lower levels to enable their abuse in defense of these structures (Or in the case of siege weapons attacking another structure, or even buffing an attacking army)
So I'm wondering how I would go about this? What possible exploits could we work around in this materials creation? What costs could you see associated with it? Would it be better to let people convert spells to rituals with this material? What risks are run using this material in a game with min max sort of PC's? However we can work out this concept I'm down for, even if it ends up being much more minor then reducing spell levels.
Rob Knop, TheHeadCase, RyanH, Jhaeman -- How about we go to Chinooks and play "Forged in Flame p2: Cleansed with Fire"?! I'll invite Erik Mona, Wolfgang Baur, James Jacobs, Greg Vaughan, Mark Moreland and Lisa Stevens to join us. Oh, and Todd Stewart, Paris Crenshaw, Marc Radle, DM Khel, Jessica Redekop, Majuba, TOZ (I think his name is "Jon."), Silbeg, Leg o' Lamb, Connor, Tineke, Hmm, um, who else? We'll have a big group, yes?
;)
I'm down as long as the wife is up to go. Love me some seafood
