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I am returned from the crusades. Many demons have I smote, but now I shall retire to my home in Kintargo for a reprieve. I ... by Abadar what is going on here?
Well said 685340. Though there are irregularities to the Paracount's conduct, the banning of mint and certain gatherings is no justification for revolution. Ready your blades.
Neutrality is a lack of commitment. The neutral soul has not obtained the spiritual weight of actions necessary for a better afterlife. Once a person embraces an ideal, begins to act on principles rather than needs, their neutrality becomes compromised. Their soul cannot help but sway toward one of the realms beyond death. This is not suspicion. This is religious fact. Put another way, we observe the principles of Order, Chaos, Good and Evil. The highest and best reward in the afterlife is a place in Heaven, the reward for a Good and Lawful soul, though I have heard foolish arguments arguments to the contrary. The average person, however, lacks the dedication to see Heaven. As some of you have already observed, the peasant or slave often has little concern for principles, only for their continued life and prosperity. As such, most people never acquire the spiritual weight of alignment. This is neutrality. A man or woman might spend his life in war and struggle but never fight for anything more than their home, their family, themself. Not fight for the good of others, nor to fill their pockets with the plunder of wickedness. Such a soul remains neutral. Untested and unswayed. Consider Greco of Oppara's felicific calculus, a fine Taldan work that helped to shape Chelaxian scholarship on the matter. To calculate the 'weight' of this spiritual alignment is no mean feat, but the vector of an action for the alignment of the soul might be averaged from the happiness resultant from the action's consequences. Taken to some extents, it demonstrates the virtue and good of Queen Abrogail Thrune II and her decisions as Empress, but in a more practical application more in keeping with the intent of Greco, it reminds us: no action is without consequence.
Geeze, what is it that makes people want Andoran democracy to fail so very much? The fact that it is an unjust abomination against the proper order of things. What perverted worldview causes you to wish the victory of mobs and chaos? --- Contributing to the thread: The Church of Cayden Cailean produces exquisite ales and wines. Beverages of all kinds, all of the greatest potency and with the most extraordinary effect on mortal minds. The Cult of Norgorber produces drugs and poisons. Liquids of all kinds, all with the greatest potency and the most extraordinary effect on mortal minds. Determining where one upstart god's works begin and another's end is actually quite difficult. Cayden is little more than another mask for Norgorber, and an effective one at that. Through the Church of 'Cayden', Norgorber has introduced agents all across Avistan. Agents whose minds are now reliant on the drugs within the potent wine of Cayden Cailean.
Your interest is noted. If you are sufficiently disciplined, you may qualify to become an armiger. Use the search function for the forums, for many debates have been had concerning the Hellknight Orders and their duties. Know that you are being watched, and improper use of knowledge is a crime that will be strictly punished. Carry yourself always with the Chain upon your heart and the Measure upon your thoughts. These are the truest guides to any Hellknight, the most essential philosophical expressions of Order. They give us purpose.
The narrative Murphy provides is thorough and fair. If it matters, the process of the Taldan Lady meets my satisfaction. And if any doubt in my mind existed as to the guilt of the farmhand, I would have sided with the Lady of the Manor. None Are Innocent after all. And if the farmhand matters so greatly, than surely I might quest to find a way that the Keeper of the First Vault would return the farmhand to life, should he be necessary to the cause. Abadar would surely know whether the man had committed the crime, and would know better than I. He might even be easier to transport while dead, and the experience with death might purge him of his simple demeanor. Execution By Flame. But I am not a follower of Iomedae. I imagine one of their kind would find the process less essential. And the threat of imprisonment for bearing false witness? Hrmph. They would have to make a very persuasive case before I would submit to anything of that sort. I am without evidence in the given scenario, and I have been dealt a fair hand by the Lady of the Manor. If my reputation and obvious symbols of rank are not persuasive enough, and no miracle or blessing will persuade and I have no allies who will act on my behalf while I wait in prison for the truth to be dragged forth, than I am left with little choice but to break free and ask atonement and castigation later. And I thank you for using the example of a Taldan court. If it were an Andoran court, you might imagine what my response would be. And a strange definition of equivocating. Oh, no. I think not. In answer to my simple questions you have slipped and slid and delivered pages of meandering text. I will not be dictated to on this count. As a decision rule, I place the Principle of Law above the laws of Cheliax and the laws of Cheliax above the local laws of savage lands. Just because I am traveling in Andoran, I am not immediately going to lose my mind and begin slaying babies or picking pockets, no matter what nonsense you have been fed in those dime novels. But neither will I cast aside my duty to exact justice on the lawless if the local constabulary, court and statutes prove lacking. And should the constabulary of any Andoran settlement ask that I submit, I will remind them -- first with words, then with force if pressed -- that they are attempting to force illegitimate laws upon a champion of Order. Again: the order of vagrants, rebels and criminals make be greater than that of beasts, but it is nothing in the face of thousands of years of Divinely Mandated rule, and even that is nothing compared to the perfected discipline and Order of the gods and Hell itself. A 'relatively good and just order'? Debatable. And when it is neither good nor just, I do not hesitate. The everyday toil of Andoran peasantry continues on, despite the lords' claims to the contrary. Even if you were to take the province in aggregate and by some Qadiran mathematics attempt to sum and average the outcomes of Andoran law you still would not have justice. Only sufficient Order to prevent the province from collapsing into the sickening turmoil of Galt. --- Now, indulge me if you would and answer this. What position are you even defending anymore, Jupistar? Obey the laws? Or obey the laws only when they are lawful and good in their execution? Or simply your estimation? Where do your decision rules draw the line? At one moment, it is the law that is paramount, and in the next moment you are agreeing that religious law and precedent reigns. For what it is worth, this appears to be your purpose in continuing on:
This is sound. And commendable. But humility has its limits. My decision rules stand. When I am in foreign lands, I will not bend knee to the laws of criminals. It comes to this: if I, with my miracles, am to doubt even the gifts of my own god and the rigorous training of my Order, who then is free to make judgment? How can corruption be rooted out, as is my duty, if my judgment must fall secondary to the simpering of bureaucrats?
And a strange definition of equivocating. The words of men are subjective, but there I am others exists truth. It is known by the gods, and it may be discerned by reasoning men and women. Jupistar does not, apparently, believe that reasoning beings can possibly escape ignorance. He appears to believe in a state of nature from which we can never escape. He believes himself 'winning' at points of logic and reasoning because he has said that he is winning, and he appeals to an invisible audience that has already come to agreement with him. Such a perverse and chaotic hand at debate. And a fine rhetorician. He filibusters and confuses and projects his failings onto the arguments and positions of others. Exquisite. --- As there are no limits upon the round here and these emotional entreaties provide amusement, the debate continues. And make no mistake, this debate has transcended its roots: it has become a debate concerning the basic cosmological foundations upon which Golarion rests and the place of mortal laws within Golarion. Accordingly: Seeing the symptoms of a life devoted to a singular alignment doesn't tell me much about the concepts of Good or Law, only that intent and attitude and action affects the soul accordingly. Precisely! These principles resonate with our actions and intents, and when one lives for the principle of Law one's soul becomes more Lawful. We can see the Order upon it. Even if it defies precise measurement, it is there. Our souls and the blessings of the gods do not resonate with mortal laws, but rather these principles, and laws are nothing more than tools of mortal life and government. A system, law, or government does not have this inherent cosmological weight. Only the will and purpose of men and women comes with such. And so, when we are speaking of the paladin's code and the gods that give their blessings to paladins, when we are concerned with what actions may or may not cause a god to withdraw their grace from a chosen champion, why does Jupistar continue to defend mortal laws an institutions as the well from which the soul draws water? What is most egregious is that he already inherently understands the Principle of Law. His metrics for Law ground the legitimacy of laws firmly within the Principle of Law: to be legitimate, a law must impose order. It must be just. It must be fair. But what he cannot seem to do is separate Good from Law. Nor acknowledge that in the question of the soul being discussed that specific local laws hold no meaning. So no. Jupistar does not argue that a Lawful person or a Paladin should follow the Principle of Law. He just refuses to acknowledge the distinction between the tool and the purpose. He believes the gods should punish paladins who break 'local laws' that people believe to be legitimate, no matter how deceived, dull or stupid those people may be. In fact, he ascribes moral weight to courts, laws and governments, as though these institutions of men have life of their own, a soul and spirit that might be called lawful or good or chaotic. Oh, if only we could peer into the castles and halls and see, at an instant, this farcical alignment of an unthinking, non-physical construct. So much doubt would be washed away, and we might be freed from using our reason. I rather believe that the gods punish those paladins that spread disorder and wickedness. Not those crossed by some king or magistrate. Not those who disagree vehemently with the rulings of a court. Not those that transgress the laws of men to spread Order. --- Philosophically Jupistar will never accede to the philosophy of the Hellknights. He has made himself clear in that he does not believe that mortals can achieve rationality, because they will forever grasp at wisdom without achieving it. Locked in the state of nature, unable to elevate itself or progress in any way, the mortal races in Jupistar's world inhabit an amoral void. Relativism at its most banal. Laws gain legitimacy from borders and armies. Courts are good if they rule in ways that locals think are good. Like a typical Andoran, he would democratize truth itself! What is good for the society is what is believed good for the society by the vast majority of society! Indeed, he projects most passionately his own failings onto others! The totalitarian criticisms of Cheliax' just government are more befitting of the model Jupistar presents. He paints a world where mortal laws overlap and come into conflict, and at any point of conflict, where it is unclear if one law or another reigns, than warfare is the only solution! If one passes an arbitrary political boundary, something that emphatically cannot be seen by the mortal eye without physical markers -- markers that are rarely present and even when present may be moved or removed or destroyed -- than one becomes subject to those laws and must obey them even if ignorant of them or even ignorant of one's place! Jupistar knows this, for even he has argued that one cannot know with any certainty which laws apply to one at any given time. And yet he persists! Fine rhetoric. The very cancer upon learning which robs Golarion of peace and Order in our times. What's more, he continues to reference the myth of innocence. How can you know a man to be 'innocent' if all things are subjective? If you cannot know with certainty that he has committed no crime? He does acknowledge one can subjectively aware of laws at any given time. But what good is that with regard to matters of the soul? He's already said that intent, attitude and actions are what give the soul weight. --- And what arrogance, from the Andoran, who maintains to this very moment that Andoran has 'won' its legitimacy in battle because Cheliax has not yet brought its rogue province to heel. The campaigns continue, men die in battle, but to him, nothing remains in question! He feels he has won the war, when a state of open warfare continues to exist. Is there a certain scale of fighting that would render the issue not settled? One man, ten men, ten-thousand men still fighting? Reason demands precision. And you cannot simply declare yourself legitimate and the war over if the other side says otherwise. But perhaps Jupistar does not argue from the position of an Andoran. He has never admitted to such a position, he merely accepted the title when I observed he argued like an Andoran. And that he certainly does. --- No. What Jupistar has not demonstrated, despite his outlandish claims otherwise, is the validity of local laws in and of themselves as the metric by which the mortal soul may acquire or lose grace. Within Golarion, Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good may be demonstrated to exist. Moreso, the influence of these cosmological principles applies even to the Gods: either the gods themselves obey these principles and acquire associations, or the gods built the world with these principles and then situated themselves accordingly. Given the divine ascension of Chelaxian heroes, I find the former case more persuasive. A lifetime spent in Order, Discipline and Righteousness makes one Lawful. And obedience to such a code pleases the gods of Law. And when the petty rulings of local so-called legitimate authorities run counter to the Principle of Law, then a paladin or Hellknight has not failed to uphold their oaths if he or she should transgress those laws. Imperial Cheliax knows this. Queen Abrogail Thrune II knows this. Which is why Queen Abrogail Thrune II places her trust in the Hellknight Orders to advance the cause of law and root out corruption. And where the laws of Cheliax fail to uphold Law and Order, then and only then do I break the laws and courts of Cheliax. Something made far, far simpler by the sanction of the queen, but something that Hellknights did long before the civil wars had ended. And if I tell a person that I will punish them under the laws of the land should they transgress the laws of the land, then I have kept my oath to Abadar. But I will not be persuaded by any rhetoric that suggests obedience to the laws of disorderly, warmongering rebellious provinces trumps the call for Law and Order. Least of all when Chelaxian peoples are still under threat from the savage attacks of Andoran 'freedom fighters' intent on spreading their disgusting perversion of 'liberty'. Perhaps I lack Abadar's Keen Eye, but I can see a blight upon the world for what it is.
Agreed. Though I have my doubts about you, given that your grasp of moral truth seems so very subjective. Like an Azata I once spit upon my blade, eager to spread uprising and rebellion.
That's a tough question, one to which I do not claim to have an answer. I envision this aura as the energy of one's spirit, corrupted by either evil or chaos or both. Indeed. The knave has the right of it. And I appreciate you have the tact to acknowledge it, Jupistar. Now then. Advancing the point. We can see the influence of the Principle of Law, and the Principle of Good. We can see that Good and Evil and Law and Chaos accumulate upon the soul and play a role in certain magics. We can even map some of their interactions, and can identify their associations in the world around us. And yet you still persist in arguing that we cannot achieve objectivity in detecting and advancing the Good or the Lawful?
Very good. Now, tell me again why the laws and legal theories of men (including the Asmodean concept of the social contract) are not tools to achieve an the greater aim of Order but rather Order itself. And how any given person will know with objective certainty which laws apply to them at any given moment. That is to say, which codes or laws they are to obey in order to be lawful or at least not chaotic. I just want to be absolutely certain, since you are so impassioned by this.
Good. I am glad we are on the same page at last. Firstly, and I understand that it is difficult for you to understand, but a traveler upon the road that does not bring war with them is permitted to pass. There may be tariffs or tolls, but there is no reason to halt them and there is no oath of obedience at the border. Goblins upon the road? Quite frankly, yes, they too are permitted travel upon the roads despite my continued arguments that they are violent animals scarcely capable of speech. Abadar's law, and a law that nearly every province and prefecture has kept. As for the Ulfen? They had violated no code, they made no war, and they had legitimate business. You would have me ... what? Kill them? Arrest them? On the suspicion that they might break a law in the future? I am actually curious what you believe it is that we do. Please recall that Order demands consistency and fairness. Now then:
I do not need your credence to validate my grace, but it is good you have put thought to it. It is, after all, half of the question at hand. Let me outline the points you have made and demonstrate where we find agreement. We discuss the paladin code, and I ask that you keep focus: the conversation was begun with a question of whether unlawful actions would cost a paladin his grace. Specifically, breaking a man from prison for a righteous reason, and whether this violated the dictate that a paladin respect legitimate authority. You have, throughout this debate, argued that this act does violate the paladin's code and demand atonement, and you have further argued that there is an objective standard by which to judge such things. And, when pressed, you maintain that paladins must obey legitimate authority, specifically the hierarchy of 'betters', such as a feudal lord or king. Furthermore, the standard by which you defend these contentions is a territory-and-borders model of temporal law, specifically the laws of men and women. You have rejected the codes and edicts of gods and other powers, elevating instead the state as the absolute mechanism of authority. And so you have argued that a paladin that does not respect and adhere to the laws of a state within that state's territories violates his or her oath to respect legitimate authority. Actions outside the law, specifically the local laws of the territory one presently occupies, violate the oath and demand atonement. Things within the law do not. By your words, disregard of local authority and laws constitutes vigilantism and chaos. Notably you permit an exception to respect for local authority in the case of open warfare. I will return to this point. --- However, Legitimacy you define in moral terms rather than legal terms. You argue that the legitimacy of a monarch or council derives from their morality, i.e. the good intentions or alignment of the ruler/council/what-have-you, rather than their legality. To whit: ... We already established that a rightful ruler implies a good and just ruler. However, now we get into some gray area. Kings were considered "rightful rulers" in medieval times and in most fantasy settings, so you can't assume that just because the people disagree with the King, the King isn't a rightful ruler. Importantly, you admit 'some gray area', and give a nod to legality as the source of legitimacy rather than morality. You also distinguish between local laws and Lawful behavior at times. So clearly you have some understanding of the distinction between Law and Good and laws and Law, you are simply unwilling to maintain focus on one or the other for long. I will be frank: whenever it suits you, you conflate legality and morality. In your estimation, Good appears to be the precondition of Law. Authority figures cannot be legitimate/rightful unless they are first, in your judgment, good. Laws cannot be legitimate unless they are first, in your judgment, good. Wars cannot be legitimate unless they are first, in your judgment, good. And that, friend, is rhetoric of convenience. Legality and morality, Law and Good, are separate things. This is not merely my argument, but a truism of all theology in Golarion. The realms of the outer sphere speak to this division, and the effects of these cosmological principles upon the mortal soul are readily apparent. You and I agree that there exist standards and means by which to discern Lawful actions from Chaotic ones and Good actions from Evil ones. But you do not appear capable of separating these standards from one another, nor at all concerned with how these distinctions between Law and Good interact with the oaths of knighthood. These distinctions are paramount. Codes are the essence of Law. If there exists no objective way to discern these qualities, than we cannot rationally choose Good or Law. --- But you do permit, within your model, the single exception of warfare. Hostile intent. ... You don't need to abide by any restrictions set by people who you believe have no authority to enact them. To you, they are not legitimate authorities. ... A Paladin can violate his code, but not simply by making war. If he goes to war for the right reasons, then clearly not. Clearly. Yet when I press you on this, rather than focusing upon law, you again attempt to return to moralities. For the moment, it does not matter to me whether you consider any given war good or evil: I ask and have been asking whether a war is legal. More specifically, whether a paladin would violate their oaths to respect legitimate authority by waging war. Do not evade this and do not tell me that this question cannot be answered independently of the other parts of the Paladin code. Thus far, your answer has been 'no, they do not violate their oath to respect legitimate authority.' You quickly deploy your moralizing, but those points have no linkage to the question at hand here or my criticism of your flawed conception of Law. This is why it matters whether a paladin may declare war upon a king or even the world. If, within your model, a paladin is 'sovereign' unto his- or herself, possesses the capacity for judgment, and in that judgment respects no local mortal authorities as legitimate, than by your own premises the paladin has not violated their oath to respect legitimate authority. They may keep their own codes and traditions and bylaws and transgress the laws of others without violating their oath to respect legitimate authority. Thus, a traveling paladin may not respect the laws of orc villages, for instance. Also, should a paladin respects the authority of their village rather than the authority of the local paracount, than that is sufficient. This situation appears to meet your criteria for vigilantism: the use of force and disregard of local laws in the pursuit of moral causes. This exception unravels everything within your framework: you have said that a paladin cannot be at war with the world on moral grounds, but within your twisted model of law it is permissible on legal grounds. This is supported by your notion of a thieves' guild effectively seceding to form their own government the moment it comes into conflict with the laws of the land; within your model you have not defined or set a lower or upper bound for such recalcitrance, so a single individual may enjoy the same freedom to choose which laws are legitimate and which are 'of the enemy'. The individuals in question may run afoul of questions of morality depending on their actions, but purely from the perspective of legality the exception for warfare within your model completely destroys the model's ability to separate legitimate laws from illegitimate ones, and lawful actions from unlawful actions. You cannot have it both ways. If the standard for lawful behavior is objective, than it cannot shift from year to year and season to season depending on who sits upon the throne, what laws their scribes issue to the constabulary, or what state presently occupies a piece of land in force. If the legitimacy and legality of a law or action depends on these things, than it is by definition subjective. And if the mechanism of authority is the state, than you must have a means of defining what constitutes a legitimate state: new states cannot simply come into being at will, else any individual may simply declare themselves sovereign when it suits their whims. Furthermore, you cannot assert that the standard of legitimate authority is the state AND assert that borders and laws are absolute and inarguable. Borders and laws are arguable while the legitimacy of states remains in question, and similarly the illegitimacy of some states forfeits their claims to territory. To reiterate the concrete example: I do not perceive Andoran to be a legitimate state, nor do I believe the pack of rebels and liars there that call themselves a government to have legal authority. They are, rather, criminals still eluding Chelaxian law. Andorans surely and vociferously argue that Cheliax has no legitimacy on account of their propaganda-soaked idiocy. Whether you accept one side's position or the other, under our mortal laws neither the territory nor the rightful authority of either state can be absolutely demonstrated due to this disagreement. And the only recourse you have provided within your model is deference to the state of nature, that the rightful law is the law dictated by those with the strength to make it so. That borders and territories follow accordingly. I must agree that the state of nature is chaotic, nasty, brutal and short. And that law holds sway only where we have the strength to make it so. But if mere strength were enough to establish legitimate authority, than we have not escaped the state of nature. We are not elevated in any way, shape or manner. Strength cannot be the source of legitimacy. If it were, than the Paladin code would require only respect to those beings stronger than oneself. That way lies the philosophy of chaos. --- Fair argumentation also demands I repeat my alternative to the model you present. Namely, the model that mortal laws are merely tools for promoting the principle of Law -- understood via its components, Order, Discipline and Mercilessness. Legitimate authority draws its legitimacy from its dedication to the principle of Law. Thus, within the paladin code, respect for legitimate authority means respect for the principle of Law. I have presented the fruit of our philosophy already. Proper application of the Chain and the Measure in the life and actions of the Hellknight ensures Lawful conduct, and governing authorities across Golarion have called upon the Hellknight Orders to aid them in upholding public order. A Hellknight, no matter where he or she travels, carries the Chain in the heart and the hand and so brings the principle of Law with them. Even into the lawless wilds and the most corrupt and unjust courts. This model is consistent within itself and with our cosmological and theological knowledge. It explains the existence of paladins and Hellknights on opposing sides in civil war, as well as how paladins may emerge from the peoples of places without legitimacy under mortal law like Andoran. It does not succumb under the vicissitudes of territory disputes, nor does it fail in the absence of obvious government, because this model does not require either to exist for a paladin or Hellknight to behave Lawfully. It is a model consistent with both the chaotic and immoral state of nature and chief aim of all Lawful and Good beings: a world of perfected order, free from the contradictions and inconsistencies of our mortal laws. You do seem to understand that orderly behavior and discipline and obedience to heirarchy constitutes Lawful behavior. So I do not imagine that you truly disagree so much as you want to insert the imperfect laws of men between a paladin and their code. For reasons that I will not speculate on here. With each passing year, we aspire toward the perfected codes, statues and contracts of the First Vault. --- I will return us, then, to the beginnings of the debate, the hypothetical example of a man imprisoned by a court facing death because of a conspiracy to falsely implicate him for murder. Under your model, after approaching what solutions exist within the law the paladin, if we assume the paladin has failed to right things, than the paladin faces three choices: first, to fail their oath by not helping one in need, and perhaps fall; second, to fail their oath by freeing the 'innocent' man in defiance of legitimate authority, and perhaps fall; third, to wage war upon the state because it is illegitimate. That is why you are perverse and chaotic. You imagine the code of paladinhood -- or any oath, for that matter -- to be a trap. You want to see paladins fall and oaths violated. You cannot imagine a world wherein chaos does not reign, and you are determined to reimagine the principle of Law and the laws of men to meet your vivid phantasmagoria.
Thou simpering knave, your obtuseness fatigues. The Ulfen had not violated any laws and they were fair travelers upon the road, entitled to the protections therein. If they had committed crime than it would be my duty to punish them. They did not. What more is there to say? The example holds weight because even as I viewed them as being subject to Chelaxian law, they did not believe themselves subject to it. They hastened on their way and there was no conflict. Answer this then: if I step into Andoran with an army at my back, do you, in your inestimable wisdom believe I act in violation of local law and violate my oaths? And why can a paladin not simple war against the world? I understand that you are dazzled and need a moment, but I am waiting to hear how your enlightened understanding handles that issue.
There was no evasion, just dismissal. One doesn't evade the mosquito, one merely brushes it aside as inconsequential. Your argument, the mosquito, relies upon a ludicrous premise: That the standard individual cannot reasonably determine the boundaries of nations and thus he has just cause to pretend to the illegitimacy of those nations and the rulers there so as to ignore the social contract. It is a vulgar equivocation. I will not stoop to debate the merits of the legitimacy of any singular... Hah! Better insults. Some sport at least. But you still evade rather than confront. Dismissal does not a rebuttal make. Churlish cowardice. You have neither considered nor answered, so I will spell it plainly for you: Andorran and Galt are part of Cheliax. They exist presently in armed rebellion, their people lied to and held hostage by self-involved villains and terrorists. I refuse claims to the contrary. And this is where you fundamentally misunderstand Law. By your argument, strength of arms is sufficient to establish the law of the land and sovereignty. That is the song of chaos. And the basis of Andorran 'liberty'. You have just told me that people 'just know' the laws, and when they fail to understand than the point of a sword and the boots of armies serve to remind them and settle the matter. Let us first confirm: you have just argued that laws do not matter if you are strong enough to disregard them and assert your own. If this is so, than you respect strength not law. Because I see, from the way you fluster in your defense of Andorran, that you cannot differentiate between a group of bandits and a legitimate army. For example: Keep in mind that a theives guild becomes an "enemy state", in effect. By establishing their own laws and ignoring the laws of the country and by establishing their own ruling hierarchy and ignoring the ruling heirarchy of the country, they've formed their own autonomous country within the country and they are enemies of each other. Your arguments are inconsistent. Try harder. Are the thieves citizens subject to the law or enemies outside the law? Are the soldiers that enforce the law over them within the law? Or merely a competing band asserting themselves over the thieves? This is what I mean when I assert you have no grasp of Law. These problems only exist within the confines of your flawed model. And you assert that paladins: ... but I do believe that Paladins must abide by the Law of the Land in which they find themselves unless they come with hostile intent. They cannot pick and choose the laws they will abide by, for doing so results in chaos and disorder. So! If they come with the intent of making war, than you believe that the paladin cannot violate their code. The logical conclusion of this thinking is that a paladin intent on making war cannot fall from grace. So the paladin's code and the law is meaningless. The paladin simply places themselves in conflict with all the world, and so eludes the reach of temporal laws. --- The alternative -- that Law and Order as principles transcend mortal laws -- neatly solves these issues and explains the plurality of beings both Lawful and Good. But you ... seem to feel that first principles violates the paladin code, since you cannot help but harp on those 'local' and 'legitimate' laws of the land. Those laws that you believe are set down purely by strength. And that the present state of warfare between competing kingdoms and codes of law is a feature of the system, and not disorder itself. How perverse!
The essence of debate is the clash of arguments. Engage with mine instead of evading, or you will never uncover truth. I will permit you another chance at rebuttal, since the near entirety of your argument rests again on your near-sighted parroting of an earlier argument. And I will spell it out: the whole of your thesis rests upon your assertion that the essence of Lawful nature is the spread of man's laws across the whole of the world, without exception. Let me assure you: I did, once, agree with you when I was younger and more short-sighted. The Starfall Doctrine is the spread of Cheliax and her laws to all the peoples of the world, that all the world might be elevated. One kingdom, one empire, unity and strength. The Hellknight ideal. But the principle of Order is not the laws of men. Proof? There are paladins that obey laws other than those of Cheliax. Kings and so-called "quorums of good nations" build laws and begin wars with Cheliax, and somehow these codes retain some legitimacy. And you cannot answer the simple questions of why and how this peculiar twist of fate comes into being. You seem capable only of whining and gnashing your teeth. The nearest to a contention you have offered on the matter is the insultingly primitive standard of 'a temporal authority is legitimate as soon as I enter its territory unless I declare it illegitimate and make war upon it,' which is embarrassing in its simplicity. Because it is an inconsistent model. If you would defend your thesis further, you must address some basic weaknesses:
And improve your insults. Even a novice has more vitriol than you. For Lictor Kurtz said: if a harsh word can distract you from the substance of your argumentation, your Discipline was upon the page, not within the heart. And one final remark ... ... Unless you're intending to take up arms against the Andorran's, you would be wise to consider your desire for civilization and the Order thus inherent in civilization when you disregard their laws, something no civilization can do without, while you stand within the borders they claim as their own and that your nation does not actively contest. You must not know me well.
Such prattle. Yet again, you mistake Lawful nature for the laws of men. Temporal laws are fallible and many and contradictory. But whether or not a soul is Lawful may be seen in the afterlife, and sometimes in this life. "Respecting legitimate authority" is, itself, a highly subjective idea because the notion of "legitimacy" is highly subjective. "Expected or required to act." Rubbish. Expected by whom? Required by what? Rhetoric, and tepid rhetoric at best. Like the Andorrans, you are content to rely on such rhetoric and invention. You do not believe the Ulfen warrior could have been a paladin, so you simply disregard my words and persist with your own delusion. Consult the Faiths of Purity: the code of Torag's paladins demands traditions be kept, as well as loyalty to one's own. They promote the good of their people and do not wish harm on other people without cause, and that is enough for their god. Not being citizens of Cheliax, but merely travelers on the road I guarded, they asked passage. I might have demanded they acknowledge that Cheliax's laws rule while they cross, but they might easily have argued that their own laws and traditions held sway within their encampment. Which holds greater claim and legitimacy? The gods are seldom forthright with answers to such questions. If they were, than perhaps they might explain another riddle: how any 'citizen' of Andorran can become a Paladin given their unlawful, violent and perverted rebellion against the rightful and legal authority of Imperial Cheliax. And the Ulfen in question did not have much patience for my talk of civilization. We differed considerably in our opinions on what made a society, and he vowed to fight to the death before letting even a single one of his band 'become a slave'. Hrmph. And as for Iomedae's lot, I agree that they make poor Hellknights. But mistake not the righteous fury of a Paladin of the Inheritor for a berserker's rage. The necessity of combating evil was not, for them, a cool and rational assessment or the pique of a fevered mind, but rather a zealous dictate of their faith. And not one I am inclined to argue: Golarion is rife with demons, undead, giants and worse. They would do good by force of arms, chivalry upon the field, and heartfelt morality. Something no Hellknight can abide, but something absolutely in keeping with their oaths to the Inheritor. Paladins, sir jupistar, whether you believe it or not. And Erastil's lot, similarly, do not understand Law in your way. They understand their place in the world in relation to their homes, and outside of that small, bright stretch of land in an otherwise dark country they perceived themselves as outsiders. They encourage others to build strong bonds with their neighbors, but certainly do not respect the emissaries of Nidal's court or view them as legitimate authorities. If they believed a court to be mistaken, they would say so. Openly and publicly. And if their words were not heeded and a person they felt innocent stood to die over a farce of justice or a conspiracy, their faith in that community would be shattered. And why should they respect the leadership or laws of any community that wrongs its own? Such a community is the antithesis of everything their god teaches and everything to which they aspire. Fah! Your own standard is flimsy and nonexistent, sophistry and pedantry most foul. If you doubt it, try to apply your own standard and show me how any action can satisfy a paladin's oath as you interpret it. Where, praytell, does Cheliax end? Who are you to tell me the borders of my own empire? How long must a ruler sit in power before he or she is considered legitimate? Let us return to the rebel provinces of Andorran and Galt: am I to obey the 'laws' of bandits, pretenders and assassins simply because I cross into land that wicked people declare to be 'theirs'? If I enter a Kellid camp, do you feel I am obligated to obey the barking nonsense of their chieftan simply because of where I stand? Doomed to fall if I should refuse? Rubbish! No! I am a Hellknight of Cheliax and a protector of roads. I safeguard travelers and slay bandits in the name of my Empire and my god. I carry the Chain and the Measure with me wherever I go, and if I am cruel it is a cruelty of purpose rather than a cruelty of passion. As a parent disciplines a child, so do I go to the wild places and create order with my strength. I ensure the spread of civilization. I root out the corruption that threatens it. I know the state of nature, for I have witnessed it firsthand. And I know no fear, for I have faced Hell and scourged such weakness from my heart by flame and lash. If you want to see the alternative to my own philosophy, see the unending revolution of Galt, the carnage of civil war, and the incessant lies and marauding of 'peaceful' and 'free' Andorran.
Faith in magic is poorly invested. A court home to an inquisitor of Asmodeus or a mage of the Academae -- or even a cut-throat of Westcrown's forsaken streets -- soon reveals the inadequacies of magic. Those possessing the magic, you see, are seldom trustworthy themselves. They have power: why would they not seek to impose their will on matters? Even if a Hellknight Signifier were to pronounce someone's testimony truth or lies, the effectiveness of these truth-discerning miracles and spells rests in the trust the Signifier can build with the court and the judges. But let us not dwell long on these matters: let me offer my insight on the codes of different paladins I have met, that empiricism might cut through this haze. --- I have spoken long on the nature of the Chain and the Measure, the heart of the Hellknight Philosophy. My words remain preserved here and there, and I will not waste your time restating them. My father's father's father followed Aroden, Cheliax's patron. But my paladinhood comes from Abadar, Judge of the Gods and Master of the First Vault, for I place my faith above all else in the principle of Law and the goodness of civilization. The world, history and experience teaches us, is nasty, brutish and short without the aegis of civilization. With the blessings of stone, timber and glass come dignity, grace, majesty and power. What are we without these things? Little more than beasts. Slaves to our natures. To become greater than nature has made us, we must become tyrants first over ourselves. There are other paladin Hellknights that I have met who draw their strength from Iomedae, Torag and Erastil. Each have their own martial traditions, but there is a common thread uniting them: belief in the dignity and grace of mortal races. The potential for growth. Betterment. Hope. Paladinhood is similar: no paladin will follow their code absolutely. Their judgement will falter. But the code is absolute, because within the paladin code lies both the inclination toward Order -- hierarchy, fairness, justice, truth -- and this most fundamental hope. An aspiration that men and women possess the potential for improvement. The code -- no matter what man, woman, lord, cult, god, or order bestows it -- provides a framework upon which Hope and Order may flourish. It is strength in the dark, and comfort in the night. It is courage in the face of hell, and compassion in the face of cruel fate. The code, like all of the laws of men, is a tool: a tool for making men and women righteous. A criterion for judgment, both of one's self and others. My point: Asmodean clerics delight in such prisoner's dilemmas, certain that their philosophical examples can tear hope from order. Hubris is a popular theme of Chelaxian drama, after all, and infernal bargains are a reality and not mere poetic invention. But this is perverted rhetoric: the particulars of actual experiences never enjoy the perfection of hypothetical speculation. Seldom and rare are the moments when a right thinking paladin truly finds himself trapped and unable to escape a fall from grace. Codes of Differnet Gods, in One Hellknight's Experience: Some would believe that the weight of my burdens must be great, because as a paladin of Abadar and a Hellknight, I carry two codes. But, in truth, there are no contradictions between these codes. The disciplined arm strikes true, the disciplined eye sees truth, the disciplined tongue speaks truth. The Chain calls on us to uphold Order, Discipline and Mercilessness. Abadar calls on us to do likewise, in his way. I have already spoken of the non-issue of the rigged trial for a Hellknight of Cheliax such as myself. Iomedae took in many of Aroden's followers. And those Champions of the Inheritor I have known have believed in courage above all else. Even those paladins that did not count themselves among Hellknight Orders saw the world as a battle, a battle in which the code provided them a metric against which to judge themselves. What distinguished these paladins, in my sight, was their passionate and emotional attachment to personal heroism. They were not part of a larger army: they viewed themselves, each and every one, as the last line of defense against wickedness, tyranny and dark powers. They would not allow themselves to falter, because they refused to allow others to suffer in their places. Their strength, and their weakness: deontology would be an apt description of their shallow philosophy, and they were best suited to straightforward battles and powerful foes against which they could apply themselves without compromise or restraint. They chafe against the Chain, because their absolutes are defined by the contours of their hearts. They do poorly with courts and deceptions, as they do not understand corruption and, emotional fools, rush into conflict with their own code. Fine warriors, though. Some of the best. There was an Ulfen man I met once who was a rare paladin of Torag. His beard stretched to his belt, and his eyes burned with fire. He would have made a fine Hellknight, but he walked with savage peoples and saw no value in settling them upon the land. "Traps lie in idle banter," he chided me, and I agreed. "I make chains with my hands and my hammers; I have no need for a chain made of words." To him, his every word and utterance was a new law unto itself, and he had no need for any philosophy beyond this. For him, the dilemma of the rigged trial would have been simple: if the prisoner was one of his family or clan, he would have stopped at nothing to break that prisoner free. And never would he know conflict, as marshaled his tongue with such discipline that he would never agree to an oath to obey local law if it might turn him against those that had already earned his oaths of loyalty. And in Nidal, I once met three paladins of Erastil who met once a month to coordinate their efforts. They guarded a stretch of farmlands and villages, communities with families in a dangerous stretch of land. And I cannot imagine any of them ever facing the dilemma of the rigged trial. Their hope was invested entirely in their communities, and by their coordination they kept wicked things at bay. They would not allow a rigged court to come into being in their own land: more likely, they would banish any villain scheming to engage in such underhanded deception long before the community elders could be swayed into an unjust preceding. If one were to quest away from their home and face such an unjust court, I believe they would have placed the laws of their own communities and conscience above the laws of the land. And I doubt that Erastil would judge them harshly for it. He is hoary and ancient god, almost more of the wild than of civilization.
You imagine the law to be a house, that one might stand inside or outside. This is folly. The law is a tool that serves a purpose. The purpose is Order. Some have the strength to make their own law. Others act to enforce those handed down by others. But these are still tools, nothing more and nothing less. A Lawful soul is one that best resonates with the principle of Order. It seeks hierarchy, rules, fairness, and consistency. It aspires toward logic rather than impulse. This word, vigilante, is meaningless to any paladin. They aspire toward justice and the greater good. The tools they use to achieve these ends are just that: tools. To be discarded or broken as necessary.
Judge the court and all parties by the Chain. Order, Discipline, and Mercilessness. All that is within the Measure draws from this philosophical foundation. If the rulers who shape the laws have done their duty correctly, than the laws of the land will enforce and enhance public order, decency, and truth. This fairness and concern for the greatest good is what we call justice. If the rulers have misshapen or wrongly enforced the law, than it will be obvious to the trained eye and the rational mind, and it becomes duty to rein in the injustices of the court. Halting the larger disorder overtakes the basic imperative to obey local laws. (Notably, within Cheliax, this power and authority is explicitly provided to the Hellknights by the highest power in the land, Queen Abrogail Thrune II. I feel other Paladins should likewise seek special dispensation from monarchies and councils to act outside the confines of temporal law.) If the rulers, the court, the judge and the jurors -- assuming the judicial system even involves jurors -- compose themselves with proper discipline, than justice will prevail. Undisciplined people permit themselves to be led astray by lies, slander, falsehoods and biases. Emotion is weakness. If these people entrusted with power cannot reign in their weakness, than it falls again to the Hellknight to act. Every Man A Tyrant. When the undisciplined misstep, it is the duty of the disciplined to right them. Remember: None Are Innocent and Society Cannot Survive Mercy. Entrusted with this legal power over local authorities, the duty of the Hellknight, especially the Hellknight Paladin, becomes all the heavier. All are deserving of punishment, but only that punishment which best serves the greater needs of civilization ought to be meted out. To examples then: a Hellknight may, if he or she has applied the Chain correctly, encounter situations where he or she finds it necessary to free a person from unlawful imprisonment or defy the edicts of temporal powers. In such cases, the use of strength to accomplish these aims can only be validated by the pursuit of greater public order and social good. These will be rare, rare circumstances. But those that willingly oppose a Hellknight must recognize the folly of their ways. If they should die, it is a tragedy, but no more so than the injustice at hand. The imprisoned man from this thread's initial example would likely be left to the fate of the court. Whether guilty or not of the murder for which he was tried, None Are Innocent breaking him from prison or circumventing the authority of the court would likely spread greater disorder and suffering. He will suffer, but better that he do so than society descend into chaos. The Hellknight's duty is clear, and the oaths of Paladinhood remain strong, if bruised. Do better next time to prevent such injustice before it reaches that point. However, if the man was important enough that his punishment will lead to revolt, or if the framed murder conceals some larger conspiracy against society, than the Hellknight's duty is also clear: the court acts against the greater good and the greater order, and so the Hellknight must overcome the local authorities that have now proven themselves illegitimate. Ever do we aspire to sharpen our senses and our rational thinking, that we might see all situations clearly. Only an emotional fool pretends that this means absolute infallibility: Hellknights have fought Hellknights before, and likely will again, all because one or the other could not grasp the Chain strongly enough to see matters objectively.
Still your slanderous tongue. The Hellknight Orders are forces of evil only in the gutless propaganda of Andoran scum and limp-wristed Taldan courtiers. I would have expected more even-minded musings from a scholar such as yourself.
Law is the precondition of Good. Paladins that truly care for Truth should join one of the Orders, lest they fall prey to myths and caprice. Remember: Society Cannot Survive Mercy and None Are Innocent. Once you have purged these misguided ideas from your thoughts, it is possible to choose correctly and act to uphold the greatest justice for all.
And upon the dawn, his eyes blood, a tide of goblinflesh driven before him with the receding darkness, the Leaf King spake the first seven words of the End Times. With him, Szuriel, Apollyon, Trelmarixian and Charon, heralding the One True Lord. In his hand, the rusted symbol of Aroden, his spent strength the footstep of Oblivion. I looked upon the field and wept, and my tears were droplets upon a salty sea. And in their hoary lairs beyond the stars the Old Ones stirred in recognition as the lieutenants of the gods took up their weapons to take part in the coming battle. "Against such, what can men do?" I cried out, and the Prince of Darkness laughed. The Lady of Graves touched my shoulder. "There is always an End." -- From the Collected Prophecies of Signifier Cadmus, Order of the Godclaw
... and hellknights which are often based on diabolist teachings ... Lies and slander. The Hellknight Orders enforce the law absolutely, and the ban on worship of devils serves the greater good of Cheliax. Devils are tools. Allies. We emulate them to gain strength over ourselves, and in so doing the strength to control them. To worship a devil is heresy and weakness at best, abominable collusion with otherworldly slavemasters at worst. The inquisitors of Asmodeus share a similar place outside the bounds of the law yet bound to it. One of the few occasions that draws us into full cooperation with the Asmodean faith is the spread of another devil's cult. Often, I suspect that the church conceals such cults from us, but when they find one to be beyond usefulness or when one works directly against the aims of Asmodeus they make staunch allies and even occasional patriots.
Taldor: heart of all that is good and orderly in the heritage of mankind. The origins of our civilization. Cheliax is the successor to the glory of Taldor, and the modern Taldan nobility are a blight upon the beleaguered descendants of the world-conquering heroes of old. Their schemes and plots against one another lack true patriotism, and they are easily divided against each other over petty trivial things. That some yet scorn Cheliax for the state of its peasantry when compared to the contemptuous neglect Taldor's leadership shows their people is sad testimony to the moral disintegration of our world. With discipline and mercilessness, Taldor could yet be a force to contend with. A pity so few modern Taldans have traveled from their homes to join the Orders.
Again, I ask for order, civility and discipline. Whatever the belief of Lord Leafar, he is the presiding and legal author of this thread. Volume will be kept at a tolerable level. His fevered conspiracy theories of the AM's aside, I am told that Asmodeus himself now supports Lord Leafar. I will not speculate on what contracts were signed that brought about this change of heart. I am simply here to enforce order.
Proteans. Pfah. A nuisance at best, and a blight upon the universe at worst. Their only use for the soul is as a trinket, a meaningless bauble for a creature incapable of greater meaning. It is a privilege and duty to reclaim spiritual coin from such creatures. I have heard that some among the Hellknight orders are even chosen by the gods to go forth to the planes beyond this world and seek such monsters in the Maelstrom.
Hellknights don't argue.Hellknights?it'd be nice to actually get some hob-nobbing with hobgoblins so they could get some dialogue outside of death-screams. Depends on whether I have been asked to act as counsel. But not with Bugbears no.
It would appear that this matter has not resolved according to common law or decency. Again for the dim: Lord Leafar's request is legal and enforceable under the law. He has commanded justice be done. Disperse and post no more, or your immortal souls shall enter the legal domain of the Prince of Darkness, Asmodeus, payable upon the cessation of your mortal coils.
Allow me to deliver a quotation from the marginalia of the Measure belonging to the late and visionary Hellknight Lictor Kurtz: "EXTERMINATE ALL THE BRUTES." If a man refuses discipline and clings ever more desperately to emotion, to the point where they spread harm and disorder about them in the pursuit of their selfish impulses, than have they not also refused their own humanity? Do there exist crimes for which the Measure can offer only death as an acceptable punishment? The harming of a comrade-in-arms, one with whom the bond of trust must be unhesitating and unshakable, perhaps qualifies. Above and beyond the grievous crime of rape, the offenders bore the responsibilities of their station and uniform. Their weakness lessens us all. The unwillingness of their superior officers to act on their responsibility to enforce order and discipline without mercy only magnifies the failing.
A petition has been filed for injunction. No further posts shall be made in this thread, which is the sole property of Leafar the Lost, save by he. Special posting rights are retained by the rightful government of Cheliax, the staff of her Majesty's Paizo Company, and Asmodeus. Further posts in this thread by those no explicitly named above shall earn the scourge of discipline.
Those who wear the armor take in one hand the Chain and in the other hand the Measure. The Chain guides us to the principle of Law. Discipline, Order, and Mercilessness. The Measure is a record of crime and punishment. By considering the discipline doled out in the past, the Hellknight judges how to punish in the future. By the hand of Abrogail Thune I, the Empire of Cheliax grants the Hellknight Orders autonomy from the laws of Cheliax so the Hellknight Orders might purge from the empire the cults and wickedness of disorder and dissent. --- The Pathfinder Chronicles have recorded an acceptable summary of our beliefs in the third and fourth chapters of the Council of Thieves adventure path. Seek you wisdom there, and here, a thread that discussed many of your questions at some length.
Why are they attacking Hellknights? Don't they know the organization is focused on the Lawful side of things, and actually KILL devils as an initiation ritual? There's a reason why Paladin Hellknights aren't banned outright, after all. Anyway, my point is that if they wanted a stronger impact, they should be trying to convince some of the Hellknights more towards Lawful Neutral (or Lawful Good) in the case of finding Lawful Evil members. The worshippers of Asmodeus are free game of course, since they worship an evil god regardless of their own alignment. Celestials. Pfah. As often as they embody the full noble character of their aura, they make themselves interpreters of all that is good and just. Without a knowledge of natural philosophy, they can be as deranged as any being of the abyss, albeit less dangerous. The Archons I have never met, but rarely do they take direct action against members of the Orders. The Order of the Godclaw coordinates with them in Mendev and elsewhere. Often, they are persuaded of the value of our works, the wisdom of the Chain. The Azata, they are the celestials I dread to see. It is in their nature to act first without consideration for the greater good. They would rather see the endless bleeding of a civil war than tolerate for an instant the notion that the Empress of Cheliax makes alliance with the Prince of Darkness. Simple for them to make such decisions for others. I have fought two azata in my time, and smote them both. Atonement for such things is difficult. And the agathion? They are mysterious. At once understanding and condemning. They would do well to keep their lessons in distant Nirvana. Let the Vudrans puzzle over such enlightenment. I will give no tongue to it. There is much to admire in the effort celestials put into being Tyrants Unto Themselves. But I would have Every Man A Tyrant Unto Himself. Man. Not these over-excitable servants of the gods. Even in the days of Aroden, they took up arms against men, as though they knew better than He. --- But let me tell you now of Erem-Thingol, Shield-Bearer to Ragathiel. Ragathiel, greatest of the Empyeal Lords, embodies the heart of the Hellknight ideal: born of Hell and Fire, he achieved victory over his nature through Order, Discipline and Mercilessness. Honor to Ragathiel, whose sword keeps the way. Sympathetic to humanity, sensing the plight of Cheliax, and understanding the intentions of the Founder, Ragathiel sent Erem-Thingol unto Golarion. Loyal, the archon went forth. The tiefling offspring of man's indiscretion and weakness, the vulnerable who have no savior of their own, those are the flock of Erem-Thingol. He appears with the setting sun to keep them from the temptation of their heritage, to guard them from the talons of Hell and guide them toward righteousness and order. Five are the names of Hellknights said to have been sponsored into the Orders by Erem-Thingol, each peerless warriors cursed with infernal heritage. They are the only tieflings ever to wear the armor, and each acquitted themselves heroically before their gruesome ends. Other tieflings he has carried from Cheliax, or hidden from retribution. He is implacable in his duty, bound one day to return to heaven and Ragatheil's side and so is said to be invulnerable in battle. Some within the Orders believe that Erem-Thingol sympathizes with the Orders. In heretical weakness, they actually pray to Ragathiel and Erem-Thingol for the strength to resist Hell. The fools mistake respect for reverence, and forget that strength comes from Discipline within, not providence without. But you did not hear such things from me.
A Hellknight and his local followers confront the player characters, putting them on trial for their past actions. In one version of the scenario, the Hellknight keeps the paladin code as I do and only smites them if they are deserving. He may become an ally of sorts, as he too is alone in a grim land. In another version, the Hellknight is a corrupt pretender that does not understand the Chain and does not read from the Measure. Unless the PCs have been tyrants themselves, he will no doubt seek to part them from their weapons and then kill them. No doubt such a vile pretender to the Hellknight Orders would enjoy the aid of devils and the fruits of reputation. Scourge this Hellknight from the face of Golarion.
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