Unleash More Heroes: Official Pathfinder 2nd Edition Character Tools Open Beta Is Live

As much as I dig the interface, the pricing just is out of my range unfortunately. Dropping $35 on a printed book, then another $35 for the same book in a digital format just to make a character? Sorry, folks, but I have to pass.

Some one is a fan of Canadian Melodrama. Love it!

Some one is a fan of Canadian Melodrama. Love it!

And the Muppets!

As much as I dig the interface, the pricing just is out of my range unfortunately. Dropping $35 on a printed book, then another $35 for the same book in a digital format just to make a character? Sorry, folks, but I have to pass.

Agreed. Hard pass for me. Bought several books digitally for Foundry, not going to pay for them twice.

I just made my first character and it's a very nice interface, very slick. But I already bought my digital books directly from paizo. There is no way for me to make use of the character tools with my already purchased books.

Yeah, the price barrier of this, (even charging for a lot of CRB options!) just makes it completely unusable, we already have great character builders, I already have all the pdfs. What exactly am I paying for here?

As much as I dig the interface, the pricing just is out of my range unfortunately. Dropping $35 on a printed book, then another $35 for the same book in a digital format just to make a character? Sorry, folks, but I have to pass.

If you link your Pathfinder account, it gives you a discount on digital books you own in your Paizo account. It's still $20, so it isn't great.

If you don't want to spend the money to use this particular tool, then don't. Fine.

I for one am VERY HOPEFUL that this will be a better tool for my group than HLO has been. And yes, I will be HAPPY to pay for it all again, if that's what it takes GOING FORWARD with a modern character management system that also interfaces with Roll20 or Foundry or whatever virtual tabletop we are using.

All of these arguments were made with D&D Beyond and it has turned pretty well for everyone, including players who can easily create characters AND have that character sheet interact with the virtual table top.

Any chance that Starfinder is going to added to this or have something like it?

As someone that's been buying PF2e materials since release, buying all the books a second time, discount or otherwise, isn't a prospect that sells me. I already have one 3rd party getting me to buy things: Foundry. (I bought Abomination Vaults twice, second time was the foundry module after the hardcover collection released. Worth for all the extras)

But I know I'm not the target demographic here.

There's a fair sized market in dragon game for a tool like this, so much that there are a not-miniscule chunk of said market that has voiced interest in PF2e in the past but haven't jumped over because they use this similar tool and it didn't exist for our game yet. This is for them.

As someone that never used dragon game's version for the times I played that, too: it looks pretty slick I hope I works well for those that like it! Don't forget to look your paizo account before buying stuff!

Online access available wherever you have data–no download or install required.

This is the opposite of what I want. The main thing I think Hero Lab is missing (and something I was hoping this might solve) is offline character access. Conventions often don't have good connectivity, and it would be great to have an app with full access to my characters even when I don't have an internet connection.

This comes up every time, but people really need to realize something: You are not buying books for a second time. Stop saying that. That really devalues the work done by these developers.

If you have the books, what you are buying here is another product that takes that information and integrates it into this automatic character builder and manager, including some calculation automation. That is new and separate work, and those developers deserve to be paid for that work.

We cannot let ourselves be spoiled by the incredible free work done by Pathbuilder and the Foundry PF2e module folks.

Back to this announcement: I'm really excited by this news, and will happily join the beta to support this. The UI looks really gorgeous, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it feels to actually navigate and use.

EDIT: To confirm what others are saying about discounts for the adjacent products you bought through Paizo: I've logged in, and here's what I see:

* Every content pack of a rulebook and Lost Omens book I've bought from Paizo is discounted down to $20, no matter if their starting price was $35 or $40.
* Every content pack for the standalone adventures I've bought from Paizo is discounted either down to $3 if they're a smaller adventure that started at $7, or down to $10 for all others. Except for Crown of the Kobold King which is $20.

We cannot let ourselves be spoiled by the incredible free work done by Pathbuilder and the Foundry PF2e module folks.

I think this is a fair statement. But it creates a market value problem. There is clearly a ton of work that has been done here, but there was also a ton of work done by the folks behind Archives of Nethys and Pathfuilder.

* Every content pack of a rulebook and Lost Omens book I've bought from Paizo is discounted down to $20, no matter if their starting price was $35 or $40.
* Every content pack for the standalone adventures I've bought from Paizo is discounted either down to $3 if they're a smaller adventure that started at $7, or down to $10 for all others. Except for Crown of the Kobold King which is $20.

The problem is how much some of us have already & how unwilling we are to either have partial access to it here or have to pay a ton for it to "catch up" to the libraries we already have built.

Where I starting Pathfinder 2e fresh, I would debate whether this was a good value to me or not. However, We are almost 4 years and dozens and dozens of books into 2e. It will take me $1000 or so to unlock the PDFs I own on Paizo.com in Demiplane. That is a *lot* of money for a new way to view the content in a new way and get a character builder.

I bought a lot of my rules and lost omens books as PDFs direct from Paizo or from Humble Bundles, and it looks like it will be hundreds of dollars more to unlock them. I'm a subscriber to the APs and it looks like it will cost $350 or so to unlock that content here, and I already own a PDF and physical copies of all of it. I just don't see why I should drop that kind of money?

I get that the devs did a lot of work here, but I just don't see the economic value of it *TO ME*. If there was some kind of inexpensive way to "catch up" or maybe if this really is official an Paizo starts including Demiplane content in it's subscriptions.

I just don't see why I should drop that kind of money?

You shouldn't.

But complaining that someone won't donate their time and skills to you is all kinds of negative attitude.

There are very few of us on these forums who can afford to purchase every single Pathfinder thing made by Paizo and 3rd-party developers. All of us have to decide whether we have the discretionary income that we can spend on a hobby. All of us have to decide which products to purchase with those discretionary dollars.

I get it. You'd like to buy this thing. But not at this price. So, you're not the target market for this thing. People with different spending priorities are.

You can change your spending choices, or not. But don't pretend that other people owe you their labor so that you don't have to make hard choices.

We cannot let ourselves be spoiled by the incredible free work done by Pathbuilder and the Foundry PF2e module folks.

I'm living on a disability pension, but go off about people being spoiled I guess.

I hope that this does very well, it certainly looks like a slick, visually appealing way to build characters!

Sadly for me it definitely falls into the "way too much for what I personally get out of it" area. The devs have clearly done a ton of work and absolutely deserve to get paid a fair value for that, I hope there's an audience large enough out there to see that happen. Honestly I'm not even priced out of it, I could afford the cost without a problem, I just don't see it as giving enough value for me and that's not on the devs at all, simply that there are tools out there I am happy and content using that provide a value it'll be hard for Nexus to compete with. Best of luck to them!

VestOfHolding wrote:

We cannot let ourselves be spoiled by the incredible free work done by Pathbuilder and the Foundry PF2e module folks.

I'm living on a disability pension, but go off about people being spoiled I guess.

Woah now, not targeting people who literally can't afford certain things, and frankly I'd argue it's bad faith to assume such a cynical version of what I said. You do what you need to do to scrape by. I'm talking to people who have the means and want to use the product, but are complaining that they're not getting it for free or at least much cheaper when Paizo is already supplying us with almost 50% discounts if we've bought the books just because we have lovely people in the community volunteering their time and skills to similar products for free.

EDIT: Found another way to phrase things: I am absolutely *not* saying that all Pathfinder people should get in on this *paid* product no matter their circumstances. Only addressing those who are showing signs of feeling they are owed extremely cheap access to this product because they've already bought something else (which is frankly a separate product). If this product doesn't make economic sense to you in your situation, that's fine. You don't have to buy it. Just don't ignore all the work that goes into something like this, since it's reasonable for people to ask to be paid for it.

I could probably get behind a small monthly subscription fee for this - say $4.99/mo like the old 4E D&D Insider - but paying hundreds of dollars to "unlock" books I already own when there are already far more competitive character builders out there? Best of luck to the devs, but seems a bit delusional to me.

Fantastic work, but who is this for?

AON and Pathbuilder already exist and do at least 80% if not more of all the things that this provides, Demiplane being the Pathfinder Equivalent of D&D Beyond. (Including its limited selection of starter content.) Literally almost all of the available content on Pathbuilder and whatnot is actively accessible and free to use aside from optional rules and whatnot. All of this at a one or two time, substantially cheaper price. Which matters a lot considering how all of the sources are seperate on Demiplane, and spread across multiple source books which easily cost upward of 20-30$ each if not more.

I feel as though this takes *too much* inspiration from D&D Beyond with how limiting its starter content is, and doesn't give me much of a reason to use this over other mediums. It kinda feels like someone said "just make D&D but Pathfinder" without actually looking into what the community already uses and trying to compete with it y'know? I'm not trying to rag on the devs, but this needs way more value for what you get to even be considered as an option personally.

Good luck for the Demiplane team and the Pathfinder nexus.
Let's hope they manage to keep up with Paizo releases and that someday it become financially viable for the most of us.

If there was some kind of inexpensive way to "catch up" or maybe if this really is official an Paizo starts including Demiplane content in its subscriptions.

In a way there will be. The consolidation of content into the remaster project will bring a lot of the content that is spread across multiple books into fewer volumes that can be bought for Demiplane at a lower cost than trying to bring it into the system in its current form.

If this product doesn't make economic sense to you in your situation, that's fine. You don't have to buy it. Just don't ignore all the work that goes into something like this, since it's reasonable for people to ask to be paid for it.

Sorry. The assumption that people complaining about spending money are just entitled or don't care about workers getting paid makes me get heated. Of course we live under capitalism and people need to eat and deserve to live off the sale of their labour.

By law of averages the majority of people who play this game are struggling to some extent and have to justify our purchases too, and whereas an individual PDF stands on its own as a choice to buy or not, these character tools essentially become an aggregate purchase of *every* book you may want to use if you want to make use of it at all. And while your group may have all the books to share and use between them to play the game, you have to each buy all the books you'll use for this. That is so much money.

Personally I find this very frustrating as most people with disabilities, most marginalised people in general too, tend to be quite poor. And with our disabilities we each have different needs that different tools for playing the game may be better suited to providing accessibility that suits our particular needs. I'll never know if this works better for me than other character builder options because I simply can't afford the investment and I'm not going to taunt myself trying it out with just CRB options.

That's particularly biting given the inclusive image Paizo pushes so hard these days. A reminder that it's a for profit company at the end of the day, not a social movement. I appreciate Paizo for the good they are , but I'm also pragmatic and don't expect perfection. So this sucks but I moved on about it when I first heard about it a few months ago. I'll manage with what I've got.

Reminder that this is an optional stylized character builder/storage system, not a requirement to play the game.

A reminder that it's a for profit company at the end of the day, not a social movement.

And a reminder that even people working for social movements need to be paid for their labor.

Compensating people for the work they do has nothing to do with the economic system they live in. It's about treating them (and their work) respectfully.

The creative people who made this tool are humans who want lives that go beyond basic survival mode. Those of us who enjoy the benefits of their work have to keep that in mind when we start judging the value of the product.

Paizo makes it possible to play their game for free. Paizo makes it possible to conveniently play the game for a very low cost. They aren't making a profit from anyone who can't afford to buy their products. They're giving them away for free.

Paizo partners with other people who make glittering game accessories for a higher cost. If creative people can get more for their work than I can afford to pay, it would be mean spirited to deny them that extra compensation.

Jhamin wrote:

I just don't see why I should drop that kind of money?

complaining that someone won't donate their time and skills to you is all kinds of negative attitude.

There are very few of us on these forums who can afford to purchase every single Pathfinder thing made by Paizo and 3rd-party developers. All of us have to decide whether we have the discretionary income that we can spend on a hobby. All of us have to decide which products to purchase with those discretionary dollars.

I never said that any of this should be free. I'm happy to pay for value.

As it is, I've been a fairly faithful customer of Paizo. I've been an AP subscriber since the 3.5 days, I have about 80% of the rules and about 50% of the lost omens line. I'm pretty deep in at this point.
It feels weird that this makes it *harder* for me to get onboard with the same level of content I'm already used too. It feels really weird that the price to get in on Demiplane is HIGHER than the price was to own all the PDFs legally from Paizo? (I know the retail on a book from Demiplane is "only" 175% or of the cost of the PDFs alone, but there have been *so many* sales over the years)

I don't think I deserve free stuff, but If there was some kind of flat "catch-up price" I'd likely be all in.

Telling me that I need to not complain about the price and buy it or don't isn't a really productive conversation. I *don't* want this to be free. I want to pay less for it than I paid for all the content I've bought up to this point. It is weird that I can pay $35 for a humble bundle *organized by Paizo* and I can get 20 PDFs, but if I want to use them here I need to pay $300. Its a character builder and a gussied up Archives of Nethys I need to pay for.

I don't want anyone to work for free, but I also don't want people to sell bread for more than the bakery does and get upset when I tell them it costs too much.

autumndidact wrote:

A reminder that it's a for profit company at the end of the day, not a social movement.

And a reminder that even people working for social movements need to be paid for their labor.

Compensating people for the work they do has nothing to do with the economic system they live in. It's about treating them (and their work) respectfully.

-

Paizo partners with other people who make glittering game accessories for a higher cost. If creative people can get more for their work than I can afford to pay, it would be mean spirited to deny them that extra compensation.

Respectfully, what is your point here? We don't owe a person something just because they decided to make something one day. The people behind this have created an inferior product in almost all circumstances compared to others. If they wanted to succeed, they should've focused on *outperforming the existing competition* instead of trying to be a copy of D&DB in a community like Pathfinder where such monetary practices of D&DB barely have any ground to begin with.

For one, the only reason I even play Pathfinder is because of how available everything is to use and play with. If getting into Pathfinder and using the majority of its material *wasn't free*, I wouldn't be playing Pathfinder in the first place. Demiplane doesn't help anything regarding this notion, in fact it seems like a direct downgrade to its competitors which provide free access.

Respectfully, what is your point here? We don't owe a person something just because they decided to make something one day. The people behind this have created an inferior product in almost all circumstances compared to others. If they wanted to succeed, they should've focused on *outperforming the existing competition* instead of trying to be a copy of D&DB in a community like Pathfinder where such monetary practices of D&DB barely have any ground to begin with.

No one is saying you owe these people something just because they decided to make it. We're saying that Paizo customers are not owed this product for extremely cheap just because Paizo is awesome enough to be a spearhead in keeping so much of gaming content like theirs free, or other volunteers have devoted so much time in to making other free tools.

Out of curiosity, what specifically makes you arrive at the conclusion that this product (which, reminder, this announcement is for it being in *beta*) is so inferior?

EDIT: Well, I guess me personally my original point was that people who have already bought the Paizo books should stop saying they're "buying the books twice", because it's not the same product, but the conversation has kind of swerved since that.

No one is saying you owe these people something just because they decided to make it. We're saying that Paizo customers are not owed this product for extremely cheap just because Paizo is awesome enough to be a spearhead in keeping so much of gaming content like theirs free, or other volunteers have devoted so much time in to making other free tools.

Out of curiosity, what specifically makes you arrive at the conclusion that this product (which, reminder, this announcement is for it being in *beta*) is so inferior?

Because Pathbuilder exists. Not only does it provide access to the majority of Paizo's content by default and automatically calculates different scores, bonuses, and other things, but with a one time purchase of around 5 euros for the full version (or two if you want both the desktop and phone versions) you get access to literally everything else. It completely blows something like Demiplane out of the water and is just the better deal all around. I can't ever see myself using Demiplane for anything at all because Pathbuilder is still well and kicking.

Any chance that Starfinder is going to added to this or have something like it?

Take a look online for Hephaistos, it's a work in progress but has been quite helpful for myself and my group of Starfinders.

--
Chuz

VestOfHolding wrote:

No one is saying you owe these people something just because they decided to make it. We're saying that Paizo customers are not owed this product for extremely cheap just because Paizo is awesome enough to be a spearhead in keeping so much of gaming content like theirs free, or other volunteers have devoted so much time in to making other free tools.

Out of curiosity, what specifically makes you arrive at the conclusion that this product (which, reminder, this announcement is for it being in *beta*) is so inferior?

Because Pathbuilder exists. Not only does it provide access to the majority of Paizo's content by default and automatically calculates different scores, bonuses, and other things, but with a one time purchase of around 5 euros for the full version (or two if you want both the desktop and phone versions) you get access to literally everything else. It completely blows something like Demiplane out of the water and is just the better deal all around. I can't ever see myself using Demiplane for anything at all because Pathbuilder is still well and kicking.

You misunderstood my question. Have you opened Demiplane and explored it as part of this free open beta, and how are its specific features worse? Is the UI worse? Is the general user experience/flow of it worse? Is the automation worse? Is their optimization across various screen sizes worse? Is their charactermancer bad? Are all the tooltips, and other clickable UI elements they have to make rules reference easy not as easy as they claim? Etc.

You can't say something is automatically worse by the mere existence of something else without actually looking at it first. You need to actually be able to do the comparison. I'm asking for what you think of Demiplane's specific features.

You can't say something is automatically worse by the mere existence of something else without actually looking at it first. You need to actually be able to do the comparison. I'm asking for what you think of Demiplane's specific features.

Yes, I have. And the moment I saw price tags on the different source books, on top of the primer only giving users four classes to pick from, I knew I wasn't going to use it.

Demiplane's UI, utility, and aesthetics are fine, but there is no way I'm using it over Pathbuilder. That's what makes or breaks it for me. It's inferior in terms of price and what other alternatives can offer already. That's all there is to it.

I don't want anyone to work for free, but I also don't want people to sell bread for more than the bakery does and get upset when I tell them it costs too much.

Fortunately, this isn't bread. It's fancy pastry with gold leaf on top.

We can all still get bread for free.

Way too expensive. Make it a reasonable subscription, and I would gladly switch.

Buying a book or a pdf is buying access to that source. The same as it is for unlocking access to it in a character builder program, either this or Herolab, for example. If I do not pay either I do not get access, so yes, one is purchasing access to the same material twice.

Jhamin wrote:

I don't want anyone to work for free, but I also don't want people to sell bread for more than the bakery does and get upset when I tell them it costs too much.

Fortunately, this isn't bread. It's fancy pastry with gold leaf on top.

We can all still get bread for free.

To extend the metaphor, I can get a fancy pastry with no gold leaf for $5 via Pathbuilder and Archives of Nethys. Nexus wants to sell me a fancy pastry *with* gold leaf on top for $1000. (that is actually less than is being pitched to me in my account on Nexus right now).

I'm responding to that $1000 price tag with incredulity.

Clearly I'm not the customer they want!

VestOfHolding wrote:

You can't say something is automatically worse by the mere existence of something else without actually looking at it first. You need to actually be able to do the comparison. I'm asking for what you think of Demiplane's specific features.

Yes, I have. And the moment I saw price tags on the different source books, on top of the primer only giving users four classes to pick from, I knew I wasn't going to use it.

Demiplane's UI, utility, and aesthetics are fine, but there is no way I'm using it over Pathbuilder. That's what makes or breaks it for me. It's inferior in terms of price and what other alternatives can offer already. That's all there is to it.

I'm taking your advice and building test characters in both, side by side and I have to say, it's not making a good case for Demiplane, for me personally. The constant loading on Demiplane when you select something is especially annoying.

I understand that this is a beta, but if I remember this was announced around the time either Secrets of Magic or Guns and Gears came out. That was almost 2 years ago. How long will it take for the final product to be released? In that time, how much more expensive will it be for people who might want to buy but are already Pathfinder subscribers?

And right now they are selling a megabundle with everything for $2000 dollars. I've bought pretty much every book that's been released for 2E, plus multiple copies for the Core Rulebook plus other accessories. I don't think the total that I have spent so far adds up or has come even close to that amount.

toErIpNid wrote:

VestOfHolding wrote:

You can't say something is automatically worse by the mere existence of something else without actually looking at it first. You need to actually be able to do the comparison. I'm asking for what you think of Demiplane's specific features.

Yes, I have. And the moment I saw price tags on the different source books, on top of the primer only giving users four classes to pick from, I knew I wasn't going to use it.

Demiplane's UI, utility, and aesthetics are fine, but there is no way I'm using it over Pathbuilder. That's what makes or breaks it for me. It's inferior in terms of price and what other alternatives can offer already. That's all there is to it.

I'm taking your advice and building test characters in both, side by side and I have to say, it's not making a good case for Demiplane, for me personally. The constant loading on Demiplane when you select something is especially annoying.

Gonna go ahead and mark your post as a favorite, because I at least greatly appreciate the good faith side-by-side testing and comparison. This is helpful feedback for Demiplane and others.

I'm taking your advice and building test characters in both, side by side and I have to say, it's not making a good case for Demiplane, for me personally. The constant loading on Demiplane when you select something is especially annoying.

The Pathbuilder devs evidently knew what they were doing when they were making it. They struck gold, *knew* that they struck gold, and made it as accessible as possible with almost all content for free via a webpage or lightweight app. I *love* Pathbuilder.

And right now they are selling a megabundle with everything for $2000 dollars. I've bought pretty much every book that's been released for 2E, plus multiple copies for the Core Rulebook plus other accessories. I don't think the total that I have spent so far adds up or has come even close to that amount.

Some of us have bought this dollar amount or more.

I'll probably buy into it only if it is well made and allows me to import my 100+ PathBuilder characters into it.

A Hero Lab import function would be nice too. Not my cup of tea, but I have a lot of friends who use it.

Sorry that this sounds pithy, but I'd rather give Piazo money to update this website instead of whatever Demiplane is trying to accomplish.

And right now they are selling a megabundle with everything for $2000 dollars. I've bought pretty much every book that's been released for 2E, plus multiple copies for the Core Rulebook plus other accessories. I don't think the total that I have spent so far adds up or has come even close to that amount.

Ooh, math time!

Cost of all released 2E rulebooks:
Physical books: $610
PDFs: $240

Cost of all released Lost Omens books:
Physical books: $547
PDFs: $420

Cost of all released standalone adventures including one shots (but not the small quests/bounties):
Physical books: $205
PDFs: $210

The weird PDF increase is because all the one shots were only released digitally.

Cost of all AP books, including the upcoming third book of Stolen Fate:
Physical books: $1,364
PDFs: $1,040

Physical book total: $2,726
PDF total: $1,910

No special additions or hardcover compilations of existing 2E APs were used in these calculations. Also note that society scenarios were not accounted for.

My source spreadsheet.

The Demiplane megabundle of all books also includes the upcoming Rage of Elements and Highhelm books, and you then get 25% off before even talking about any discount you get for having purchased the books from Paizo.

Given how much of this megabundle includes all the APs and adventures that you probably aren't actively playing in, and therefore probably not worth purchasing, it's worth cutting that $2000 figure in half, then by another 30-40% for the discount you get for having purchased the books from Paizo.

They also have a $5/month membership that can be used to share your library of books with up to 24 people.

I suppose it's supposed to appeal to particularly upscale people who really want that flashy interface. I dislike it conceptually as basically selling DRM versions of books for the kind of tool I'd generally celebrate as a triumph of FOSS like COMP/CON, and it's not going to have superior integration with Foundry because superior support already exists for other character building tools. I don't really want DRM to be a thing with Pathfinder stuff, especially as a GM that runs games for extremely broke people.

I'd be upset if it was actually the easiest way to play Pathfinder online, I think it'd be terrible for the accessibility of the game just as D&D Beyond is terrible for the accessibility of 5e, but since we have quality free alternatives I guess my response is more just that I wouldn't be able to afford it. I wouldn't ever engage with it because I don't want to have to pay a lot of money just to get the full baseline options I can get off of Pathbuilder or Wanderer's Guide or AoN, I don't want to have to make characters in a "basic tier" or whatever, and so I have trouble imagining ever making a first purchase there for anything besides characters, like adventure paths. But it's not currently in a position where I'd have to deal with it if I wanted proper VTT integration, so I guess if this excites someone there's a good reason that just doesn't apply to me.

I discovered Paizo in 2014. Since that time I've subscribed to just about all their subscriptions for PF1E, PF2E when that came around, and SF. There may be one or two I don't have. I dropped the Pathfinder Battles sub after 10 or 12 issues because I can't afford it, and I don't have any place to put any more minis anyway. A year or so ago I added up what I'd spent on Paizo Products up to that time. Came to something north of three grand.

I use Pathbuilder. I use Herolab. When Herolab was a standalone app, I bought PF1E, SF, and Shadowrun 5E, including all the books available for all that. Herolab went to the web, & I've bought all the PF2 stuff they've made available so far, and most of the SF stuff. I've also bought Foundry and a lot of *their* PF2E stuff.

I'm tapped out. Demiplane looks like it might be pretty good platform someday, but it ain't there yet, and even then they're gonna have to give me a lot better incentive than I've seen so far to buy into it.

Not complaining, just telling it like it is.

If you just discovered Pathfinder in late 2022 or early 2023, and if you were interested in buying all the PDFs for the Adventure Paths, Adventures, Rulebooks, and Lost Omens line, it would cost you $1910 (I got ~1640, but I'll trust VestOfHolding's spreadsheet).

$1625 might look like a good deal, especially if you were used to using such a tool in a previous game that you played. And even more especially if it granted you a 25% discount for future materials.

If you already owned all those PDFs, it might or might not make sense to replace the ones you use most frequently. I have no idea what the discount is for already owning the PDFs from Paizo.

I already have a character generator that I paid for, and have paid for access to books for it as well. I don't expect that would transfer to this new shiny from a competitor, so those that use the other service is going to need more than slick graphics to abandon what we already have.

The pricing seems to be more than what I paid into for the other, and attached to a book reader web portal (I think?), and the value of the newer program/portal just doesn't seem to match the premium attached to it.

Mocharaid wrote:

toErIpNid wrote:

VestOfHolding wrote:

You can't say something is automatically worse by the mere existence of something else without actually looking at it first. You need to actually be able to do the comparison. I'm asking for what you think of Demiplane's specific features.

Yes, I have. And the moment I saw price tags on the different source books, on top of the primer only giving users four classes to pick from, I knew I wasn't going to use it.

Demiplane's UI, utility, and aesthetics are fine, but there is no way I'm using it over Pathbuilder. That's what makes or breaks it for me. It's inferior in terms of price and what other alternatives can offer already. That's all there is to it.

I'm taking your advice and building test characters in both, side by side and I have to say, it's not making a good case for Demiplane, for me personally. The constant loading on Demiplane when you select something is especially annoying.

Gonna go ahead and mark your post as a favorite, because I at least greatly appreciate the good faith side-by-side testing and comparison. This is helpful feedback for Demiplane and others.

My problem with the comments I've seen from you here (and admittedly some others too, but you've been the most vocal), is the assumption that people saying the cost is too high are trying to get something for free. Or that their input isn't helpful feedback. But neither of those things are true. People are saying that this product is not worth it to them at this price point or with this pricing model. And that should be considered VERY helpful feedback for Demiplane, because if enough people have that opinion, then perhaps they would succeed better with a different pricing model. It does no good for them to price their product at what you or they think it is worth, if at that price they have a far more limited customer base than they might at a lower price point or with a different pricing structure. A company trying to make money needs to try to maximize its Net Profit per Sale x Sales Quantity. And if you really DO want to make sure that the developers are well fed, then you'd accept that the feedback being given about pricing might very well do that better than telling everybody to just suck it up and shut up if they don't like the current pricing. I haven't seen many people here not wanting this product or company to succeed. I've seen a number of people trying to help Demiplane understand what changes might help them reach a larger customer base and, in the end, best profit from their work.