Monkeying Around

So then Epic DR can't be overcome at all.

It can be overcome by epic weapons, but last I heard there was no way to craft such a thing. I guess they would be artifacts, or created by gods and such.

In the meantime, epic creatures natural attacks count as epic weapons. So you need a pet tarrasque to overcome DR/epic.

I still am curious if you could get a Slotless +5 AoMF and a slotted AoMF that had nothing but special properties would they stack?

Good question.

Or even just a resloted AoMF.

I still am curious if you could get a Slotless +5 AoMF and a slotted AoMF that had nothing but special properties would they stack? [/QUOTE

]
They should. Nothing in the item description suggests something different.

So a smart Monk in the PF Campaign Setting can get a +5 AoMF tattoo on his Neck Tattoo Slot and a Slotted AoMF and have the same Maximum enhancement as a normal weapon.

Though I don't think they would be able to get a Slotless +5 AoMF & a Slotted +5 AoMF.

Right, it would have to be one for enhancement bonuses and one for special properties.

That's clever. You should pass it along to monk fans.

I have they try to argue against it.

So a smart Monk in the PF Campaign Setting can get a +5 AoMF tattoo on his Neck Tattoo Slot and a Slotted AoMF and have the same Maximum enhancement as a normal weapon.

Though I don't think they would be able to get a Slotless +5 AoMF & a Slotted +5 AoMF.

Rather a kind of common tactic, only using GMW so far because the cost was so high.

+5 and +5 don't stack due to slot reasons but because it is a typed bonus.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

So a smart Monk in the PF Campaign Setting can get a +5 AoMF tattoo on his Neck Tattoo Slot and a Slotted AoMF and have the same Maximum enhancement as a normal weapon.

Though I don't think they would be able to get a Slotless +5 AoMF & a Slotted +5 AoMF.

Rather a kind of common tactic, only using GMW so far because the cost was so high.

+5 and +5 don't stack due to slot reasons but because it is a typed bonus.

I knew it wasn't because of the slot I just couldn't remember why it wasn't able to.

But it doesn't change the fact that people argue it.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Why, this is obviously a Flurry of Thank you. Why do you ask ?

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Actually, under the DR rules it just says it has to have a +3 bonus. Which technically a +1 Holy AoMF does have.

Uhn, no :-)

And from lvl 7 on you don't need the +3 anymore... Except to boost attack bonus.

Attack bonus is one area the monk still lags behind in, thanks to MAD. Hence it's unlikely a monk would invest in anything but straight enhancement bonus unless the property was practically indispensable to them.

Wow... So then it isn't worth the time to add any properties until you reach a +5 enhancement.

No. And given the +5 cap, the AoMF is unlikely to ever get one in many cases.

I still am curious if you could get a Slotless +5 AoMF and a slotted AoMF that had nothing but special properties would they stack?

Effectively, you can do this with the bodywraps and the AoMF without creating slotless items. They take up different slots, and the properties from one will add to the enhancement bonus on the other.

The body wraps can only be used on one attack right?

The body wraps can only be used on one attack right?

No, the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes can be used once per round. At BAB +6, +11, and +16, the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes may be used an additional time per round (for a total of 4 times per round).

No matter how many times I look at it, it reminds me of 4E's 'once per encounter' mechanics and similarly phrased abilities.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

The body wraps can only be used on one attack right?

No, the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes can be used once per round. At BAB +6, +11, and +16, the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes may be used an additional time per round (for a total of 4 times per round).

No matter how many times I look at it, it reminds me of 4E's 'once per encounter' mechanics and similarly phrased abilities.

Ok that is what was throwing me off.

And yes it does seem like that. Though I would say it is more like some At-Will Power since it can only be used once per round.

Essentially to get the same bonus at very high level as two normal magic weapons you would need the AoMF and the Body-wraps...and still not get the equivalence. Body-wraps are decidedly not for monks, they are for non-monks who want to be better than monks, for which they work perfectly.

Essentially to get the same bonus at very high level as two normal magic weapons you would need the AoMF and the Body-wraps...and still not get the equivalence. Body-wraps are decidedly not for monks, they are for non-monks who want to be better than monks, for which they work perfectly.

How do you figure any of that?

Rune_Master wrote:

Essentially to get the same bonus at very high level as two normal magic weapons you would need the AoMF and the Body-wraps...and still not get the equivalence. Body-wraps are decidedly not for monks, they are for non-monks who want to be better than monks, for which they work perfectly.

How do you figure any of that?

A Monk at 16th level has a BAB of +16 when he flurries, which allows him to take advantage of the full power of the Bodywrap. At 16th level he has 7 attacks from flurry, 8 if you use haste, 9 if you use haste and Ki, 11 if you use Haste, Ki and Medusa's Wrath. We won't even be counting the number of AoO's the Monk could have from Combat Reflexes.

So the Monk has between 7 and 11 attacks in a round, yet the Bodywrap only works on 4 attacks. Period. Depending on how you and your group play and roll dice, the enhancement from the Bodywraps applys to you highest flurry, plus Ki, plus Haste attacks so your best attacks are more likely to hit. Other groups play that the bonus attacks are rolled after your normal ones.

A 16th level Unarmed Fight will have between 4 and 7 attacks using Haste and Medusa's Wrath. The Fighter is going to see most of his attacks being enhanced by the Bodywrap.

Currently, the best usage of the Bodywrap + AoMF is to give the static bonus to the Amulet, and special properties to the Bodywrap. That way, your attacks are more likely to hit, and when they do hit, you can get tons of special properties to trigger.

Hmm... OK then.

I hardly ever get a weapon with a Net Bonus higher than +5 so it really doesn't phase me. Well at least not if using WBLx1 as I normally get other items first.

If using WBLx1.5 or WBLx2 I normally would get a +5 Speed Weapon. If TWF it would be 2 +5 Speed Weapons.

Hmm... Still I see the lone crafted AoMF as a good deal as you can find ways to add properties to your Unarmed Attacks. Heck, my favorite is a Suli Monk. You get most of the Elemental Properties for when you need them for a Single feat.

I think the body-wraps were a nice idea, poorly executed. The concept is, give an item that is cheaper than the AoMF, but make it deliver less than a full weapon does. Cool so far, but making it only apply to some attacks is a bad way of doing it as it makes it useless for some attacks. You could, for example:

• Allow it to apply only weapon properties, not bonuses to hit & damage (which is the most important feature of magic weapons), or
  
• Allow it to apply a bonus to hit only, not damage (cool for monks, as they get scaling damage anyway).

I think the body-wraps were a nice idea, poorly executed. The concept is, give an item that is cheaper than the AoMF, but make it deliver less than a full weapon does. Cool so far, but making it only apply to some attacks is a bad way of doing it as it makes it useless for some attacks. You could, for example:

• Allow it to apply only weapon properties, not bonuses to hit & damage (which is the most important feature of magic weapons), or
  
• Allow it to apply a bonus to hit only, not damage (cool for monks, as they get scaling damage anyway).

Either option works great for monks, less great for classes trying to outdo monks (which is already easy enough by using brass knuckles or gauntlets), doesn't make the AoMF redundant, and yet delivers less than a weapon. The current system is clunky, and deliver relatively more for non-monks than for monks.

Well reasoned, Dabbler. I like that idea of ONLY applying weapon properties, not enhancemnt bonues.

MA

Sorry, late in the responses... The first is Mutant & Masterminds, a D20 product that uses a more free form approach.

The second meant that a version of the setting would be made compliant to the new edition of the brand (D&D) with the license and all. I really doubt that it happens, but it is possible.

The other company is very much trying to avoid a certain number, so the next iteration won't have one if it can be helped.

As for the monk, it seems that some of the problems is like the Wizard continually forgetting things, it is a holdover from the previous material.

To all applicable Paizo staff members, I thank you for these changes and appreciate all the work you've put into everything.
*bows low with prayer hands*

I stumbled across a forum post that gives a good alternative for a monk's multi-attribute dependency: the Agile weapon enchant from Pathfinder Society Field Guide pg50 (now only 4000gp!). Ignore strength and give priority to your dexterity; then as soon as you can grab an Amulet of Mighty Fists you do dexterity modifier for damage. You'd want Weapon Finesse as well of course.

Thank you all Paizo staff... Just found this and was overjoyed. It even works better for me on a personal level because I like E7 play and this makes a great capstone for monks.

On the note of MAD and other such issues holding the Monk back, how about a Ki power that lets them access similar benefits to the Magus, with them being able to burn a Ki point to add Wis to damage or Wis to hit or empower strikes to act as Bane etc?

Its not as though the mechanics don't exist already, just need to stretch them some to assist the Monk.

For Example: Monks can also spend a Ki point, once they get access to their Ki pool to add their Wisdom bonus to damage rolls for a single round as an option to the existing Ki pool powers.

I stumbled across a forum post that gives a good alternative for a monk's multi-attribute dependency: the Agile weapon enchant from Pathfinder Society Field Guide pg50 (now only 4000gp!). Ignore strength and give priority to your dexterity; then as soon as you can grab an Amulet of Mighty Fists you do dexterity modifier for damage. You'd want Weapon Finesse as well of course.

Several problems with this:

So you are less MAD (but not MADless, you still need that Wisdom score), at the cost of one or two feats, +1 to hit and damage, and you'll never get through everything the other combat types do.

In short it's the usual story of having to run like mad in order to not-quite-keep-up with everyone else that the monk suffers from.

Plus, it's not the damage that the monk really lags behind in, it's the ability to hit reliably and bypass DR. If you could hinge more off wisdom, then this becomes less of a problem. Personally I would suggest letting monks use their Wisdom modifier to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes is a better idea for reducing MAD.

I'm probably the last person with a vested interest to see this.

Thank you to the rules team for the clean up. This was well done and more importantly simply done.

The flurry adjustment was one that could have become unnecessarily complicated. While they're are people that will intensely dislike this decision, I thank the lord that the end result is simple. For hardcore gamers, simplicity is almost a bad thing. For those of us who play more casual types, simplicity is a godsend. This method can be used and understood by a neophyte player without the need for a coach to hand hold them. That's good for the game.

The Ki Pool adjustment. Is likewise simple. It solves a longstanding problem. It prevents the "Monk's Arsenal" issue. It's cheaper and easier than my houserule fixes. It keeps the value of a single "special circumstance" weapon, yet that weapon will change over the course of the character's life and level progression. A nice balance has been struck.

The AoMF; I've been a very strident critic of this item for some time. I'm not sure that this fix is going to change that. It's still a Druidic (now Summoner) item. It's only boosted those classes. Yet the Monk is not quite crippled by it's necessity. It's cost reduction addresses its principal flaw, for the monk. Yet it's still not a Monk Item in the way that a Staff of the Hierophant is a Divine caster item or a Holy Avenger is a Paladin item.

Thank you.
I happily acknowledge that this is the most significant rule adjustment since the publication of the CRB. I believe this is an excellent step that will address the real issues with the class. Perhaps not the dream issues, but those will never go away.

'Bout time.

Thank you Paizo! Now I will show my gaming group just how viable monks are! Ah-hahahahaha!
Oh wait, they already think so.... Explains why our seven-strong party has three monks. Thanks again.

Is there a reason the actual pricing hasn't changed on this in the PRD?

Is there a reason the actual pricing hasn't changed on this in the PRD?

Possible. I don't recall the last time the Core Rule Book was printed, but the PRD only publishes the rules as they exist in the most recently published version of each book.

So if this blog post was made after the current version of the CRB was published, then that would mean the PRD would not be updated to reflect this change.

Buri Reborn wrote:

Is there a reason the actual pricing hasn't changed on this in the PRD?

Possible. I don't recall the last time the Core Rule Book was printed, but the PRD only publishes the rules as they exist in the most recently published version of each book.

So if this blog post was made after the current version of the CRB was published, then that would mean the PRD would not be updated to reflect this change.

Considering the blog post is two-and-a-half years old, and I'm 95% sure there's been a printing since then...

Yup.

Core Rulebook Errata

Last Updated - 5/30/2013

Source

Blog date:

Tuesday, December 4, 2012

I see the pricing got updated for the CRB but Ultimate Equipment is still using old pricing.

UE

I see the pricing got updated for the CRB but Ultimate Equipment is still using old pricing.

UE

UE only recentlly got errata'd and the changes hasn't hit the PRD yet.