Into the Stolen Lands (Kingmaker Book 1) (Inactive)

Game Master Chainmail

Read through what's there now and it's great.

I do have a suggestion for you on formatting your character sheet. I'd make your horizontal dividers about half the size they are now. They don't need to be that big and they are causing a display issue on smaller screen sizes. Honestly, you probably only need four or five of those characters you're using to act as an effective divider.

Looking forward to seeing what Emre's background is like. There's some stuff that you've put into Emre's sheet that I'm going to be riffing on in Amelia's.

Getting there on the background. Am reverse engineering it (as you've done such a great job Salsa on Amelia's it was easier to start now and work back). Just got to build her formative years and she'll be ready.

Did use some creative licence and brought in some folklore around the sisters; in that since "the Incident" their fellow Abadarian clergy (particularly the Archbankers) refer to them as "The Tarnished Coins"... not to their faces obviously :)

Oh, nice. I love that last bit.

By the way, did Emre have something engraved on the holy symbol she gave Amelia? I'd like to make sure I get that listed in her appearance when I get around to describing everything.

Yeah she did - should be in her Background.

Thanks! I've updated Amelia's sheet. I swapped the tent for clerics vestments since I had to pick one or the other. Maybe Emre bought a tent for the two of them to use on the way to Brevoy and Silverhall?

It's a very boring Wednesday afternoon, so I started looking at the skills presently available to us.

Present folks in game:
Amelia: Skills Appraise +7 (+8 when bargaining for the price of goods), Diplomacy +10, Heal +4, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +7, Knowledge (planes) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +2, Ride +2, Sense Motive +0 (+1 when bargaining for the price of goods), Use Magic Device +7
Érme: Skills: Diplomacy +4, Heal +6, Intimidate +7,Knowledge (Religion) +5, Perception +6, Ride +6, Sense Motive +7,Stealth +6 BACKGROUND SKILLS: Appraise +5
Drektan: skills: + 2-Acrobatics, + 2 Appraise, + 9 Bluff, + 8 Climb, + 2 Craft (Any), + 9 Diplomacy, + 3 Disguise. + 2-Escape Artist, + 2-Fly, + 3 Intimidate, + 3 Knowledge (Arcana), + 3 Knowledge (Dungeoneering), + 3 Knowledge (Engineering), + 3 Knowledge (Geography), + 8 Knowledge (History, + 3 Knowledge (Local), + 3 Knowledge (Nature), + 7 Knowledge (Nobility), + 4 Knowledge (Planes), + 3 Knowledge (Religion), + 6 Linguistics, + 5 Perception, + 7 Perform (Oratory),+ 3 Perform, + 2-Ride, + 6 Sense Motive, + 2-Stealth

Characters presented in the recruitment thread:
Maria K (cleric) Skills: Know Rel. +4, Diplo +6, Perform Oratory +9, Perform Sing +1, Perform Paint +1, Linguistics +4
Remismun "Remis" Mandruleanu (investigator): skills: Acrobatics [1] +6, Disable Device [1] +7, Handle Animal [1] +5, Geography [1] +7, Nature [1] +10, Nobility [1] +7, Perception [1] +7, Spellcraft [1] +7, Stealth [1] +6, Survival [1] +2
Eberk Kraghelm (Paladin): Skills: Diplomacy +6, Knowledge: Religion +5 Background Skills: Knowledge: History +4
Linnes (fighter) Skills: Intimidate+5; Knowledge (Planes)+3; Knowledge(Local)+3; Survival+3 Background: Knowledge (Nobility)+3
Karina Zayatevya (paladin): Skills: Heal +6, Perception +6,Sense Motive +6, Stealth +8, Survival +6, BACKGROUND SKILLS: Knowledge nobility 1
Fiona Hallowswift (sorcerer): Skills: Bluff +8, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Perception +7, Use Magic Device +4
Agiz Dangubic (Witch): Skills Handle Animal 0/ +4 with rats, K Arcana + 8, K Nature + 8, Perception + 4, Profession (Herbalist) + 4, Ride + 3, Spellcraft + 8

Where are you all at on making sure we have all the 'Skills' filled? I tend to zero in on that sort of thing, but I don't want to assume it's important to everyone.

I would think we'd want 'survival' since we all know 'Kingmaker' is a sandbox, but I don't know if disable device is as important. Obviously I'm still mulling around which class to take...

Wow, thanks for that skills summary.

I do not think you need to fill all the skills, but there are those in the sandbox that become important. I do know there are those that panic when trapfinding is not solved. I remember a barbarian in our pathfinder group who was incredibly durable and dared any trap to do him in, (and CR balanced traps couldn't).

As the AP is designed for 4 and the group has a versatile bard, I think the skills are already sufficiently covered. I did not plan on recruiting the next two in either group to make up for uncovered skills.

Now I will risk bringing up a controversial subject, CR balance. Kingmaker explicitly warns that the sandbox nature may make encounters possibly more difficult and not CR balanced depending on the luck of exploration picks. GMs are instructed to warn players when they are going into dangerous areas they should leave for later. I will keep railroading to a minimum while trying to avoid allowing either group to jump in way over their head.

Many 1E pathfinder groups I have run seem determined to fight things out despite all odds. Kingmaker encourages subtle clues to indicate a high CR encounter like Keep out Signs with skull and crossbones.

Five days to go!!

I am playing a squishy caster that fancies herself a merchant and a diplomat. She'll always try talking over fighting.

As for CR balance, as long as we have a way out, I'm fine with facing stuff that's way above our grade. I imagine given her disposition and Mere's own heritage that the Coin Sisters will probably be willing to hear out most people as long as they act in a civil way.

With the sandbox style of AP's I always assumed if we moved in a concentric pattern using our original base of operation as a starting point we should stay within our means. But I've not actually gotten very far in the AP to prove or disprove that idea, so it's total theory.

As for the skills, the only one I'm concerned about right now is 'Survival' with a sandbox set in the wilderness I think it would be useful. I'm looking at traits and skills to see if I can add it to the swashbuckler and still meet the requirements for Aldori swordlord @ 6th lvl. If not will go ranger or slayer. Yeah, I've had way too much time to think about this :)

Hey, Kunala! There's another way to do that. Build the character you want to play, and then encourage the selection of a character which fills the hole you are worried about.

I think there are one or two . . ..

---

As far as taking the Monty Python option ("Run away! Run away!"), historically as a player either I convince people not to do the stupid, I end up sacrificing my character trying to save others from their own stupid (too common), or (my favorite, used at organized play tables, mostly) I tell them goodbye as I refuse to join them in the grossly overly-obvious stupid.

Edit:

Survival (all 3 are trained in the skill . . ..)
Remis +2
Linne +3
Karina +6

Remis also has the honest, full-on trap skills.

So, if skills is the key to our selection, I think I know which 2 would be high on the list.

I'm personally more enthused about finding ways to succeed with the resources we have, and picking the people I would rather play with. <meh> Neither way's wrong. Just different approaches.

Hey, Kunala! There's another way to do that. Build the character you want to play, and then encourage the selection of a character which fills the hole you are worried about.

I think there are one or two . . ..

Interestingly, this is one of those situations where I want to play Kunala's personality, the three (could even be four if I tossed in fighter) classes are all similar enough that one doesn't strike me as more appropriate than the other.

Which class I select will just reflect a little more on different parts of him. For instance, he wants to be a swordsman like his biological father, who encourages him and pays for him to go to the Aldori school. But his stepfather is a ranger, ie a hunter, trapper and guide who worked for his biological father. So, if I go Ranger or slayer it would just reflect more on him learning from his step father. If I go Swashbuckler it will just reflect more on what he learned while he was away at school. And if we had a second background trait, he would have learned to play an instrument from his mother :)

I've PM'ed with Tribute about some of the applicants, once he makes his selection I'll come to a decision. Until then I just keep looking at all the options, tweaking here and tweaking there. Trying to find the perfect combination. Maybe the first time I consider multiclassing full BAB classes.

I still have a Skill Rank to select for Érme (her 1st Level Favoured Class bonus) so am mulling the following candidates for that final precious point...

- Survival: would be @ +6
- Knowledge (Nature): would be @ +6
- Knowledge (Local): would be @ +6
- Climb: would be @ +5 (but Drektan is only other with the skill... re: scouting etc)

Survival and Knowledge seem to be covered pretty well at present - plan is to alternate skill picks to build up all her class skills to moderate levels and key ones to high ranks.

I'm also a fan of Background skills so may well pour some points into Lore etc when we establish more of a presence in the Stolen Lands.

And if we had a second background trait, he would have learned to play an instrument from his mother :)

Remember you can use "Adventuring Skill Points" on Background Skills chief :)

Remember you can use "Adventuring Skill Points" on Background Skills chief :)

Can't do it. If I go swashbuckler I need all six to hit the four required skills for 'aldori swordlord' plus perception and bluff for feint later. if I go ranger it would be at eight and I would do that so I could cover disable device and survival.

Bah. The "need" for perception is an illusion!

As are pants!

ಠ_ಠ

The plot thickens! I assume were waiting until final announcement of players to post?

I really need to read the character names instead of just going by the pictures. I'm in another game where someone is using the exact same avatar as Kunala, and got confused when I saw that I was posting as Amelia instead of my character for that one.

I am starting to get the early texts in the gameplay thread ready so we can hit the ground running.

Selections will be complete 30 Jan and we will officially start 31 Jan. Feel free to jump the gun and start your "introduction" post if you want.

As we are starting where all good adventures of yore started, a tavern, feel free to let your hair down.

Cool, before I post in game, since you are doing two traditional 'good' games are you keeping the four of us together or is there a chance you may split us up?

There is no chance you get split up!!

Just for fun, what do you all think of this Image for an Aldori dueling sword? Or do you imagine it more like the grosse messer?

The kreig messer blade is closer to the illustrations I've seen.

The Arabic blade in the first image has too much curve in the blade as a whole, I think.

Whether the guard is a nail like the kreig messer shown or the circle identified as traditional for the grosse messer in that description? I would say the guard is probably more an elaborate basket, honestly, so that it is more available to deflect attacks, given the empty hand most Aldori techniques expect.

True, I wonder about a basket, AoN says An Aldori dueling sword can be used as a martial weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword)...You can also wield an Aldori dueling sword in two hands...I have trouble imagining a weapon used two handed like a long sword having an elaborate basket.

Hmmmm what about the Swiss Saber German Early 16th C A489 on the left?

The "knuckle bow" as it is described in one of the later pictures seems to be the best fit. Earlier versions may have had the cross guard and double ring configuration, but as the image of an Aldori duelist tends not to include heavy gauntlets, the "knuckle bow" seems most appropriate.

Group 1 is complete.

Please assemble here and talk some strategy. We are ready to post in the Gameplay thread. Probably some tavern chatting before the story begins.

We are shooting for one post a day in gameplay starting Tuesday, Monday is optional

Ninja'd by the man himself, FYI, So the first comment was about the knuckle bow conversation
Cool, I will keep that in mind, Really I just wanted to show off the 'arabic blade' it's from one of my favorite movies.

Welcome Fiona Hallowswift and Eberk Kraghelm!

Tribute I wasn't expecting the announcement until tomorrow. I will have Kunala's crunch done in the morning. With the skills needed for Aldori swordlord and wanting to have Survival and disable device as an option, I think first level will be slayer.

ready whenever y'all are.

Hello everyone! Happy to be here! :D

Welcome - looks like we have the ingredients of a standout game here :)

I hope so, Érme, I hope so.

Kunala's crunch is done, went with slayer, taking advantage of the high skill points and hoping to use the studied target as part of his dueling. I've added the drawback 'Pride' and the trait 'Nonchalant Thuggery' I think they both reflect the nature of an Aldori duelist.

Tribute, please take a look at his page, let me know if you have any questions.

Also, what time of year is it? Since Kunala was traveling it might make a difference on his 'starting outfit.'

Good Question:
GM out of curiosity do you plan for the different tables to have any crossover? Perhaps merging tables down the line if folks drop out

Here is short WIT (What I'm Thinking) from your GM:

I will outline the master plan. In my initial interest check I mentioned the drop rate of PbPs can be high. My new formula is to start APs at six for PbP and recruit three again if the group drops to three. Why? I can encounter balance 4-6 easily and I personally hate to respond to recruitments for one character, two makes me pause, but getting three characters at a pause is probably enough to spark interest and make the recruiting worthwhile for both players and GM.

Seeing the lack of 1E pathfinder recruitments lately, I am hoping to take roughly the interest level of all 18 characters that applied, I hate to disappoint. If we lose 3 total from all 3 groups in chapter 0, I will recruit again. If we lose 6 total we will consolidate into 2 tables and move forward. I am also hoping to inspire some of the players to think about GMing their own 1E games, and will not be offended in any way if they decide to go 25 point buy and Elephant in the Room--but want also to show the old way (15pts feat taxes) works well too.

Early spring 15 Phar (think 15 march)

Kunala looks good, spring has started recently, but the nights outside can get cold.

I wasn't able to finish my post in time during my lunch break so you'll see it in about 4-5 hours

Annnnd, finally, the dwarf, with his 20' movement, catches up to the rip-roaring humans and their 30' move. * panting *

Honestly, while I was busy with personal stuff, I had no idea that the discussion was already open, or I would have at least popped in.

So...Hi.

Annnnd, finally, the dwarf, with his 20' movement, catches up to the rip-roaring humans and their 30' move. * panting *

So...Hi.

Hey! Don't worry about the speed during this first part, since Kunala opted for the sword instead of a horse, I'm hoping there's a wagon available...

So are goat chariots for dwarves a thing?

Home from work. I should be cooking supper. Posting first, TONIGHT.

Posting in a bit.

Hello Eberk and Fiona! Happy to have you aboard!

Yes, we have a quorum. Plan is to meet the captain of the guard Wednesday latest. Provide more background about Greatwall -- you will find it is officially Sanctuary of Abadar (so Lebeda/Brevan interests can project south without being under a national banner, but a religious one).
Thank you for joining, and think the party composition looks great.

And, since this is the discussion thread the GM is responsible for providing intriguing discussion topics at times.

The Stormwind Fallacy reposted from another source (not my comments)

I still stand by the argument that this is a fundamental difference between old school (basic D&D: 1 race/class, AD&D: very limted multi-classing) vrs new school (I buy a book and there is a class in their and I want it gimmie gimmie). The trend I see is old school = roleplayers, new school = optomizers.

Note to New school people: Don't listen to what you hear, you aren't a dork if you roleplay. It is ok to indulge in what D&D is all about, roleplay. If you try it and have a good DM, I guarantee you'll have a blast and won't care so much about optomizing. Okay, that's it.

I'm hereby proposing a new logical fallacy. It's not a new idea, but maybe with a catchy name (like the Oberoni Fallacy) it will catch on.

The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.

Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.

(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')

Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.

Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy

Your starting assumptions are bad, so your entire point is invalid. <grin> Controversial enough start to the reply?

The original version of the modern TTRPG was known as the Chainmail Supplements. Chainmail was an arena combat game, designed and intended for optimized dice chukin' with the concept of role-play basically non-existent.

The Chainmail Supplements were written to take the arena combatants into the larger world and is where roleplay (as we think of the hobby) was born. Everyone involved was still grossly optimizing, because to do otherwise meant losing the character, QUICKLY.

Optimizing munchkins are working with core concepts on which all systems are built. Some game designers will claim optimization is a violation of the rules system they created, but, it isn't. It can't be. The system provides advantages for using it a specific way. Every system does.

Story-telling is how I like to describe the other frame of reference for our hobby. While the mechanics are the tools we use to see what happens, to interact with the world being created, the entire reason ANYBODY does it instead of playing (say) Diablo is to experience the story that the group manages to create as they face the world and its challenges.

One frame of reference is very left-brained. The other is very right-brained. Thus, people fit somewhere on the spectrum, based on how they think, on what part of their brain they use more and easier.

At the end of the day, this entire hobby is an entertaining diversion. We should spend less time arguing about how to play, a little time finding people whose style is close enough to our own, and then just let everyone enjoy their entertaining diversion. Whether their play is heavily dominated by one lobe or another, or neither, is far less important than remembering that this is supposed to be leisurely fun, not something to get upset about.

I will try to keep up the pace and when there are multiple spoilers will label them if I am not lazy. When rolling for them you can designate what spoiler you are unlocking.

Some will not need a roll and say things like be an half orc or have a favored enemy orc

So I started working on a post and rolled a 7(4+3) on knowledge nobility... may I assume that Kunala fits within the 'previous service' catagory? Would either sergeant Krayquer or Gillmore be people Kunala would have recognized, and worse, are they people who would have recognized him? If Gillmore is carrying a dueling sword, would Kunala have seen him practicing with his father at any time, either in New Steven or at the hunting lodge?

Also, do you use discord? It may make this sort of question go faster.

Good questions -- all story progressing answers will be destined for the gameplay thread (yes, Kunala fit previous service). You can assume that all these people here you have never met before.
I tend not to use discord, though I think i have an account.

Cool, so he doesn't know them, and he doubts they know him. I will progress accordingly.

I'm cool with using the discussion here, I mean that's what we've always done. But some folks do use discord, so I thought I'd ask. I tend to post more between 8 am and 8 pm EST, so your answer has given me plenty of time to post :)

Just need our paladin to show up -- standard semi rail road beginning to get you started :-)

I'm in UK so will tend to post betwixt 5-8PM GMT unless work allows me respite to post doing the day.

I'm EST. I typically take my lunch at 1 p.m. and I'll get home around 6 p.m.

I'll finish my game post when I get home.

CST here. I work from home now, so I general post whenever I have a few minutes.

Central US, generally either at work or on the road from abut 0530 to 1700ish every weekday. Can only access the site from my phone at work, and our cellular distributed antennae system is WOEFULLY inadequate for our facility, so there are times it is just saturated and I effectively have no signal.

Today's national wintry weather predictions have me at home instead. Work laptop to my left. Personal desktop to my right. Been trying to be good and work, so I stopped myself form posting more than the dice rolls earlier.

I should fix that here quickly.