Is this Arcane Discovery as powerful as it seems to be?
It would allow basically any 4th level or lower spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List to be viable in a wand. For blast spells, a simple Wand of Scorching Ray as used by a caster with this discovery would do 12d6 fire damage, instead of 4d6. A Wand of Fireball would do 10d6, instead of 5d6.
For spells with durations, the duration will be (assuming at lvl 13) more than doubled for 3rd level spells, more than quadrupled for 2nd level spells, and x13 for 1st level spells.
For spells with DCs, the DC will probably be at least 5 higher.
A reminder, and for any who don't know, an Arcane Discovery can be taken in place of a feat or a bonus feat by wizard. Staff-Like Wand allows the wizard to use his caster level and ability mod to DCs as if the wand were a staff, when using a charge from a wand. The requirements are Wizard lvl 11, and Craft Staff. To get the most bang for your buck, it would seem like Craft Wand would be good too.
Considering that a wand is roughly the price of a pearl of power for the same spell level, this seems like an incredible deal from an economic standpoint alone, even before halving the cost with the Craft Wand feat.
I wondered what other people's thoughts were on this though, especially the reactions of any who have actually used it in a campaign. I'm not very experienced with primary spell-casters, especially in Pathfinder, but Treantmonk's guide to God Wizards has really made me interested in playing one now, when I get the chance.
My war wizard sure loves it.
Still, at the levels you can get it, one must wonder, why aren't you using a staff?
Especially since you have craft staff...My war wizard sure loves it.
Still, at the levels you can get it, one must wonder, why aren't you using a staff?
I'm assuming I would use a staff as well, but, especially for level 1 and 2 spells, a wand would be cheaper. Staves are really expensive. Staves seem like a better way to get a couple extra castings of mid-high level spells you use all the time.
There's no save for 1/2 with Scorching Ray, so assuming I hit with the ranged touch attacks, I'd be doing an average of 42 damage with each charge of the wand. And I wouldn't be using a spell slot. It would seem like a good tactic to buff, debuff, summon, and/or control...and then pull out a wand and start blasting if the fight wasn't over too quickly.
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Main reason to not use a staff: it takes 10days to fully recharge. I find staves are great for an extra bit of spellpower in a pinch but the recharge time makes consistent use impractical.
Main reason to use staff-like wand: Magic Missile wand. 750gp (rather than 6750gp) for 50shots of 5d4+5 damage.
- Gauss
I thought it cost 400gp x CL x spell level for the highest level spell in a staff. Is that not cheaper than 750gp x CL x spell level?
EDIT: Never mind. Staves start at 800gp. I was thinking of the crafting cost rather than the market cost.
Staff has a minimum caster level of 8. Thus, if I wanted to buy a staff of Magic Missile (not that I would) it would cost 1*8*800gp = 6400gp. Whereas said wand of MM would cost just the 750. Half of course in both cases if crafted yourself.
It's a good discovery, especially since most of the discoveries are . . . well . . .
Staff has a minimum caster level of 8. Thus, if I wanted to buy a staff of Magic Missile (not that I would) it would cost 1*8*800gp = 6400gp. Whereas said wand of MM would cost just the 750. Half of course in both cases if crafted yourself.
That's a good point too, that I forgot about.
I just wish this feat applied to your Familiar (And that you Familiar used your caster level.)
But I know very well that would make you more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
However, if I got the Magic Missile wand, I'd make it look like a Tommy Gun.
Isn't there a feat somewhere that lets you fire two wands at once, but it uses more charges?
I'd rain magic missile death if I can find this somewhere.
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Don't forget, when you take used wands off your enemies, or find them in the treasure pile, you just multiplied the effectiveness of said item immensely.
Sure, finding a wand of <insert level 1-3 spell here> at level 11-15 in that dragon hoard is nice and all, but your Staff-Like Wand Wizard now has that spell at full caster level & with all appropriate feats tacked on.
Some wands I've found very nice with this discovery:
I took this discovery for my current Illusionist because we found a handful of useful wands in the course of adventuring (lightning bolt & web, mostly), and I am absolutely loving it in play!
One other reminder.
"Viable" does not mean "super maxxed-out optimised", or at least not for me.
To check to see whether the Loremaster fits your definition of "viable", you need to set some goals as to what you want the character to accomplish. Preferably the less vague the better.
Then you'll be in a position to answer your own question.
Wrong thread, perhaps?
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I only make staves for "big tricks" that I won't necessarily need every day. For example I made one with every spell needed to summon and bind an outsider. It took all 10 charges, but it's not something I do every day.
I can imagine a similar one for creating a demiplane, defending a home base, etc.
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Staff costs more?
Standard 750gp wand of magic missile now does 5d4+5, same thing applies to all 1st level spells.
Cost per charge is basically negligible at 11th lvl on.
As is the effectiveness. At 11th+ level it is increasingly a 'yay team' action. You deal ~17.5hps of damage... and you've spent a feat to do this?
It's cute, but overbalanced.
Staves can be made fairly cheaply... their pricing is wonky, at best. Unless you are looking to spend more than 10charges at a time, or unless you need it to be a small wand vs a large staff.. the staff is looking better.
The fact that you can recharge (or get recharged) a staff for free (or a nominal price) is long-term gravy.
-James
Agreed on the combat effectiveness of Magic Missile in general.
That was simply an "off the top of my head" example.
Much better selections include low-level buff spells that scale well with level.
1st level: Shield, Floating Disk, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Ant Haul, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person
2nd level: Arcane Lock, Fog Cloud, Web, Gust of Wind, Blur, Mirror Image, Knock, Spider Climb, Resist Energy, Bull's Strength/ETC, See Invisibility, Darkvision,
All are fantastic spells, most of which you'd like to cast as many times as necessary. As a Wizard, you simply cannot do that, but with this discovery, those "utility spells" that most Sorcerers I've played with like to spam (like making the entire party resistant to all energy types) become much more accessible.
Being able to cast invisibility as many times as you'd like (practically) open a lot of opportunities that would otherwise be missed.
Thank you everyone for commenting. Your thoughts have given me some good ideas!
I specifically mentioned blast spells because they were the first spells that came to mind that one would circumstantially spam in some combats, but that would not be spells that a wizard would normally want to prepare a lot of.
A wand of those 1st and 2nd level spells you'd cast all the time, but won't know when you'll need them like Grease, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Blur, Shield, etc. would seem to be a godsend, if you could use your own caster level and ability mod for the DC.
Am I correct that this would be a good way for a wizard to work around his opposition schools? For instance, a wizard with Enchantment as an opposition school could have a Wand of Charm Person and use it without any problem, correct? Of course, crafting items from an opposing school could be problematic, but that doesn't mean 1) it can't be done 2) you couldn't purchase the item or obtain it as treasure.
This also would seem to have interesting implications when combined with an exhaustive spellbook and the Arcane Discovery Fast Study, which lets you prepare part of your spells in just one minute. If you left a couple of each of your lower level spell slots open, (and could afford to because you had the wands for your most frequently used low level spells), you could sit down and a minute later have the perfect spell for any occasion under the sun. Not too viable in combat, but for out of combat utility...
... The fact that you can recharge (or get recharged) a staff for free (or a nominal price) is long-term gravy.
-James
I am missing something.
How are you recharging your staves for free?
... The fact that you can recharge (or get recharged) a staff for free (or a nominal price) is long-term gravy.
-James
I am missing something.
How are you recharging your staves for free?
Pathfinder staves are different from 3.5.
In PF, a staff has 10 charges, and you can restore 1 charge per day by sacrificing a spell slot for the day. See this page.
Wow, I totally missed that section.
Thx, muchly.
Thank you everyone for commenting. Your thoughts have given me some good ideas!
I specifically mentioned blast spells because they were the first spells that came to mind that one would circumstantially spam in some combats, but that would not be spells that a wizard would normally want to prepare a lot of.
A wand of those 1st and 2nd level spells you'd cast all the time, but won't know when you'll need them like Grease, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Resist Energy, Blur, Shield, etc. would seem to be a godsend, if you could use your own caster level and ability mod for the DC.
Am I correct that this would be a good way for a wizard to work around his opposition schools? For instance, a wizard with Enchantment as an opposition school could have a Wand of Charm Person and use it without any problem, correct? Of course, crafting items from an opposing school could be problematic, but that doesn't mean 1) it can't be done 2) you couldn't purchase the item or obtain it as treasure.
This also would seem to have interesting implications when combined with an exhaustive spellbook and the Arcane Discovery Fast Study, which lets you prepare part of your spells in just one minute. If you left a couple of each of your lower level spell slots open, (and could afford to because you had the wands for your most frequently used low level spells), you could sit down and a minute later have the perfect spell for any occasion under the sun. Not too viable in combat, but for out of combat utility...
Correct; this is a great way to get around the opposition problem, especially if magic items are readily available and you aren't a (dedicated) crafter. And it is nice to be able to leave a few slots free for times like that once you hit mid levels.
The main problem with staves are that they take 10 days to recharge. With alot of downtime that is great. However, if you are not afforded that downtime you have to burn a slot = to the highest level spell of the staff while adventuring just to recharge it. It winds up being a net-sum of zero while adventuring.
That is not to say it isnt useful. In a pinch you can cast an extra 10 of your most powerful spells for one day (assuming you manufactured the staff that way). However, the staff-like wand gives you extra low level spell power at your caster level and ability scores for a low price.
Yes, Magic Missile is rather pointless at that level.
Scorching Ray price is 2*3*750= 4500 (90 per shot or 45 if crafted yourself). With this feat it does 12d6damage no save.
Fireball/Lightning Bolt price is 3*5*750=11250 (225 per shot or 112.5 if crafted) and would do 10d6 damage.
Then of course there are the buff/debuff etc spells that benefit from higher level and DCs.
While I agree that there are other things a level 13wizard (the earliest you can take this ability) could be doing this would give you some backup spell power if needed.
As an interesting note: I see nothing in the wording that prevents a wizard from UMDing a divine wand with this ability although many (myself included) might consider that cheese.
- Gauss