Attacking Cinder is what you're going to want to do now or later but either way it is a tricky encounter where the line between easy fight and multiple character deaths is very small. That's part of why the uneasy allies are insisting on a very clear plan.
Just fyi for considering the scroll plan, the adventurers will want to split the cost with you, not just bankroll it themselves.
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Let's take a step back a second. Our goal is to kill the dragon, and we want to wait until it is asleep. The purpose of stealth is only to see if the dragon is asleep, correct? Therefore, we only need one person to peek around the corner. Multiple people is just more chances to roll bad. Maybe I'm confused by the idea of a "stealth team".
If we wait a bit and listen around the corner for heavy breathing, that might also give us an edge. We can wait until night and then try again...
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I think the idea for a stealth team is that even a sleeping Cinder gets to make perception checks (albeit at a penalty), so putting a team into flanking position prior to the loud folk coming in and starting their assault, and the sneakies could pop off a surprise round to kick things off.
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hmmmm... i'm still not crazy about fighting a dragon because most of us do no damage at all.
I don't want to be in the room with it. In that case, Bob takes himself off the stealth team. I will peak around a corner but will not flank something that can one shot me. I am on the page that fighting it at this point is stupid. Even with backup, I don't think we are strong enough. Our party is full of tiny things, that deal little damage, and the dragon has crazy high skills, spell resistance, and high saves probably.
Oh yeah, we're probably going to die if these shmucks are all the help we get xD
Or maybe we can protect ourselves from his breath with Solid Fog?
I'm also for not punching something so far above our CR.
I say we trick the goblins into helping xD
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Well, so long as I can land a Hit I’ll be giving it negative levels. If the dragon can be distracted for a bit, it might become CR appropriate
Yes the dragon effectively has +18-20=-2 to perception while sleeping so anyone with a stealth bonus less than +17 after silence and other buffs is not guaranteed to be able to sneak up on him. Peeking around the corner to see if he's awake or not requires without being seen requires beating whatever his perception is at the time.
The adventurers are resistant to any plan they think is highly likely to result in their deaths. This is a juvenile red dragon and we're all well aware of the stats on a monster like that. If Cinder notices you and gets one turn to act, he's going to act just like a juvenile red dragon and we could easily have a bucketful of character deaths. So you need to be confident you can either insta-kill or insta-disable him, whatever your plan is. Or, you can decide that you don't want to work with these adventurers to fight Cinder, in which case there will be hard feelings since that's why you called a truce with them.
It's really up to you guys. I'm just here to enjoy your dilemmas. But I'm also going to keep pushing you forward using my NPCs. So when the adventurers think you guys have come to consensus on something, they will begin assuming that consensus and discussing the next portion of the plan with you.
Important clarification from me: If you guys do succeed in sneaking up on Cinder, I will let you all act simultaneously to surprise him. E.g. you can all attack him for the first time simultaneously. Then we roll initiative. So multiple natural attacks is a no-go because the first one would wake him up and result in an init roll. But simultaneous chops is fine.
-20 for sleeping you say? Maybe +13 isn't so bad...
So I finally looked up negative levels.
“For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.”
So...a Juvenile Dragon has what, 13 Hit Dice? I don’t think we can survive that long. But if Gorthug is in the surprise round team, I might be able to hit it twice.
I mean, it’s a long shot. :p
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The other thing we could try to do is lead it into a tunnel where it can’t turn around. If Gorthug can then get behind it, then he could get in some hits while it can’t attack back. This may be extra hard though, as it should know which tunnels will cause it an issue.
finding a doorway where he can be stuck Squeezing would help, but it'd be GM fiat for him to not turn around xD
Any way to do dex damage? Anyone know of any poisons we might afford? xD
I think Snowball can contribute with Flyby Attack and some hopefully usefully placed exits if we can't get him stuck squeezing :3
edit: Rod of Nettles?
Probably too slow and expensive, but it's dex damage...
hmmmm... i'm still not crazy about fighting a dragon because most of us do no damage at all.
Yes, that's the problem. Our DPS is tiny, if any, and 90% of that is Gorthug.
Wow, just looked up the juvenile red dragon - we are going to be sooo pasted if we attack that.
Perhaps the trickster party should think of something trickier than BFA. Not that I currently have any bright ideas though.
My mistake, he effectively takes -10 for being asleep. Not -20. But that's still a huge factor. Especially if you split the cost of a scroll of silence with the adventurers for the +15 from silence. After his +5 bonus from blindsense you're basically looking at a bonus of 20. So with a +20 bonus (plus whatever other bonuses you gin up) can you beat his perception of 18?
I'll let you know that if it comes to an actual combat, I can almost guarantee multiple character deaths. So whatever your plan is, you need to either kill him extremely quickly or not attack him at all. Thankfully, there are mechanical options for killing sleeping creatures very quickly...
Coup de Grace is nice, true, but it's still just a normal Crit. So unless the adventurers have some pretty heavy hitters with them, it's looking like ~40 from Gorthug, and if we're generous maybe another 30-40ish from their fighter? with not-bad rolls that would put cinder at somewhere around half? But most of the rest of the damage comes from sneak attack, which isn't improved by CdG, so every additional person we put in there is another potential failed sneak, for an additional 10, maybe 15
damage?
Not necessarily advocating one way or the other, just throwing some math around.
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Coup de Grace is not just a normal crit. If Gorthug autocrits him for like 30 damage, then the dragon has to do a DC 40 fortitude or insta-die.
I think our best best is to get Gorthug or their barbarian up to him while sleeping and then chop his head off in a Coup de Grace. If both of them do it simultaneously then it will be really hard to save twice. The silence spell will help. But what else can we do to guarantee him to get right next to the dragon without being detected.
Dimension door? Er... flying so no footsteps? Ummm... mission impossible repel from the ceiling?
Actually, I would be in favor of betraying these fine folk, rather than taking on Cinder.
Gorthug met another orc! He’d prefer to try and cut the dragon’s head off
That would be DC46 with -1 from negative level or just die. A juvenile red dragon has +13 Fort, which goes down to +12. A nat20 would be needed.
I’m willing to bet his life on something like that.
Dragons take massive damage death rolls? I always assumed in the long list of dragon abilities they'd have have listed immunity to that as well :D
Traits
A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Darkvision 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons breathe, eat, and sleep.
It's not the massive damage optional rule. It's just the coup de grace rules. If the dragon were immune to crits or even had fortification, he could be alright. But you managed to tentatively befriend a wizard who managed to roll high enough to be pretty sure he has no such defense.
As I see it, if the dragon makes its save...then it is a near guaranteed TPK. So logically speaking it is best to only put one PC in the blast zone.
It's up to you guys. But getting into CDG range is non-trivial, even when the dragon is asleep. So you guys need to come up with what your next step in the plan is. Go to town? Spy on Cinder? Go for it now?
I'll allow until 5 pm tomorrow for three PCs to agree on a next step. Otherwise, the adventurers will lose faith in you and just leave grumpily, licking their wounds. I don't want us to get stalled here.
You still need to be able to see the spot to summon it, but I like the idea. I can't cast summon monster though, maybe the mage can. Oh wait, Tina can summon now can't she?
Or we silence Gorthug and let him try.
Both of those seem doable, even together.
Summon Monster has a verbal component, so it couldn't be cast while in Silence. And if we're close enough for the creature to appear next to Cinder, then we're close enough for him to hear the loud arcane words.
It's an SLA for Tina. She's got a level in summoner (anti-monster summoner).
SLA means no components :D
(but it still triggers AoOs somehow...)
Snowball can burrow. Anyone think she should burrow in to check on Cinder? Possibly offering a gold coin in case of angry Cinder? xD
Let's go to town and get a scroll of Floating Disk. I can cast it, and we put Gorthug on top. with a Silence on Gorthug and Me, I can sneak in, and arrange gorthug in position. That'll also put me in position to start a summon when the attack begins.
I think that makes 3 of us then? The only tricky part is getting a scroll of TFD, because otherwise, I have to put the wizard on it too, so it stays with 5 ft of the caster.
(tricky, other than sneaking past a sleeping dragon and decapitating it.)
It only takes 2 hours to scribe a scroll (assuming that the invading wizard has it prepared...)
Also, we might need a second level scroll. How heavy is Gorthug?
Also, make that 4 PCs in agreement xD
I'm losing access to my main computer until the 12th. I'll try to keep posting, but just a heads up that I may miss some.
and as a thought, does our gracious GM allow CdGs with firearms, provided they are adjacent?
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
not the classic: Scythe?
Well, if you can get me one :)
Alright, new side quest guys: steal from the nearest farmer :D
Yes you can CDG with a firearm but I don't think you'll find a firearm in this setting. No guns here unless one of you really wants to take some levels in gunslinger and then we'll have to play out the history of how guns were invented by a brilliant monster.
Sounds like a plan. You're heading into town to make purchases.
I do like the floating disk plan - and the caster does not need to be within 5' of it. By default it stays within 5' if otherwise not directed, you can direct it anywhere within close range.
I always thought it was an excellent if cheesy way to have your fighter get full attacks and still move about - you off load your movement to the wizard.
It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round. If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you.
Mostly I was thinking that one of the summons you put on my list has one in its statblock. And if we're going to be making noise, we might as well wake Cinder up with a bang.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npcs-cr-0/catfolk-burglar-cr-1-2/
Good point, Xeria. I forgot that it could be directed. Plus, that usually gives the fighter an "attacking from the High Ground" bonus. And We all know how important the high ground is, especially in combat involving floating platforms.
Oh snap. I suppose that particular friend of yours has a pistol, though you guys wouldn't know much about that without asking more.
Furiously schemes backstory for why that catfolk has a firearm
Stole it?
From a dorf from that one no-magic land between two magic kingdoms?
:D
Summoned from an alternate dimension where firearms exist?
It’s not a gun in the modern sense. But rather runes are written on the bullets. Pulling the trigger makes the firing pin strike the rune, causing the spell to go off. Which in this case propels the bullet at intense speed.
So it’s magic, with a little tiny bit of science.
It's actually a hypersonic mass driver, but the technology to create new ones was lost thousands of years ago.
Hanging around a cleric is a great way to add respectability to whatever criminal enterprise you're involved with.
Depends on what kind of Cleric. I mean, hanging around a Cleric of the Mother or Monsters probably won’t win many friends.
but it will influence people ;p
Edit to avoid the double post:
No one showed Snowball the reward money, right?
Who is holding on to it? xD