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August 10th, 2007 I was looking at my last issue of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. My gaming group from High School still meets weekly (the group of us have been playing for over fifteen years, we have a core group of 6 that have been assembled between high school and college and 4 new members, occasionally we bring in new gamers, the “extended gaming family” is around 30). I was crushed by this announcement; Dungeon and Dragon were an important event for me, reading the new material, combing sage advice for new information. Looking at class acts and what products I would buy next.
“So What?” Mr. Neil asked, “You never ran us through a single adventure from dungeon and the prestige classes were never that great. Your game is not dependant on this, so it’s really a non-issue.” He grinned; I guessed the pun was intended.
“I don’t know” I responded, “I like getting the monthly new material, it is how we pulled Frank into 3rd edition” Frank, was an avid 2nd edition player, 3rd edition had been an abomination, when we had begun playing 3rd edition, he refused to convert, we actually had him playing a second edition sheet with all of us playing 3rd, me running the game converting it for his character.
“Once again, so what, we all love the game, the magazine is worthless to us” Mr. Neil would not see my pain.
I retreated into my own gaming world as I received the “You should try our new Monthly Magazine we are calling pathfinder”. This pleased me, I again had new material to read and review.
I had two levels of gaming information, one from what would become D&D insider, one from Paizo. I began to read the online articles from 4th edition and my teeth grated together the online format was not the same for me. It is more than a paper vs. electrons; I did not like the material wizards had been releasing. “Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress: A Girl's Guide to Dungeons & Dragons” was annoying as the fictional guides to mystical creatures. Everyone at my gaming table is treated with respect for who they are not based on their sex, religion or skin color. This book felt to me to be… uninteresting at best, condescending at worst. This is not gaming; this is general fiction with a dash of self help. This is not a needed part of the game for me.
I still purchased the 4th edition books, it’s a good rules set. In some ways really good as a game, healing surges are a great addition; the new class powers are indeed flexible and powerful.
“Remember how I kicked and screamed when we converted to 3rd edition?” Frank asked after looking through the 4th edition books, “I will draw blood if we do this.” Even Mr. Neil agreed with him.
I was again trapped, I had always felt a part of the D&D community, I played the latest edition, I incorporated anything that came along, Kits in second edition, alternate magic systems and new proficiencies in second edition; any prestige class in 3rd edition and pretty much any core class someone wished to play. Now my core friends were not willing to come with me into this new world.
I wandered to a local store and pulled up a seat at the gaming table with a new group. I sat quietly and watched as the players made characters. I rolled up a paladin, a “protecting paladin”. The concept had always interested me (In the early days of World of Warcraft, I was a protection paladin before it was cool), I quit with Wrath of the Lich King when my guild dropped to only a few people.
The game started well enough, I felt a little awkward, being over twice the game master’s age… but then again he showed a lot of promise. I was enjoying myself and the other three players were as well. The one lady at the table built a rogue, her shirt, “Rogues do it from Behind”, and one guy played a warlord, the other a cleric. We played through a standard module, moving from chamber to chamber just as in any other game.
Halfway through the player of the cleric stated “This sucks, I hate this game it’s like WoW.”
“How is it like that, this is great. I love fourth edition” stated the player of the warlord.
For the next hour myself, the rogue and the game master watched these two verbally spar over the game. With a little assistance we regained control over the game, both players still snipped at each other for the remainder of the game.
I don’t post much here, I really don’t have the time, but I do not think my experience is unique. The 4th edition changeover has left a lot of people feeling alone and not part of the game we all know and love.
“Those who have moved with 4th edition love it, those who stay behind hate it” seems to be the overall feel. “Paizo’s boards are renowned for hating 4th edition and not giving it a fair shake” has been posted at least twice in different forms. These statements are both generalities and I feel the posts I have seen pulling apart the gaming community that are then refuted line by line just add to the underlying issue.
I am worried about the community at large; I see the 3rd edition vs. 4th edition getting more viral, not less.
There is something important to remember, we are all gamers, whether we play 4th edition, Pathfinder, Heroes System, Palladium or any other game system. We share a common experience, and that should be stronger than any rules set.
I have pulled my group into the Pathfinder beta; we loved it and have been using the rules since my first download.
I really wish to thank Paizo, with Pathfinder only days away from release, I feel the way I did when Complete Warrior was announced, that old feeling like when Mongoose Publishing published their first Quintessential guide.
Once again, thank you paizo for producing quality products and I look forward to seeing the release!
Nice way of expressing your thoughts, thanks.
August 10th, 2007 I was looking at my last issue of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
Is it two years already? Time flies ever faster.
Stefan
who just *had* to rearrange the paizo stuff on his gaming shelf today - and needs more space soon.
<Wipes away tear.>
That was beautiful man.
who just *had* to rearrange the paizo stuff on his gaming shelf today - and needs more space soon.
I'll be buying a new shelf soon to accomadte my ever expanding Pathfinder collection.
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who just *had* to rearrange the paizo stuff on his gaming shelf today - and needs more space soon.I'll be buying a new shelf soon to accomadte my ever expanding Pathfinder collection.
Ha! Last week I threw away a binder of old backup CDs that was so old I'd never need them again so that I would have the precious inch of space needed when The Book arrives. Guess what I needed on Sunday...
RaGeR, that's a great post, but...
Your title, which begins "How my group came to Pathfinder," made me wonder how your group came to Pathfinder. So I read your post, which was a fascinating story. You mention that Frank refused to convert to 3rd Edition. Then you relate your experiences with, I assume, an entirely different group, playing 4E. Then suddenly you jump in with...
I have pulled my group into the Pathfinder beta; we loved it and have been using the rules since my first download.
Um... did I miss something? I still don't know how your group came to Pathfinder. I especially wonder how you managed to convince this Frank person to try it.
Geez, I sound like a Composition teacher! Sorry. But I do still wonder how your group came to Pathfinder.
EDIT:
Maybe you meant that your experiences with 4E left you feeling bad, so you decided to convince your group to play Beta? But no, you said that you like 4E. One bad experience alone couldn't have made you want to switch.
RaGeR, that's a great post, but...
Your title, which begins "How my group came to Pathfinder," made me wonder how your group came to Pathfinder. So I read your post, which was a fascinating story. You mention that Frank refused to convert to 3rd Edition. Then you relate your experiences with, I assume, an entirely different group, playing 4E. Then suddenly you jump in with...
I have pulled my group into the Pathfinder beta; we loved it and have been using the rules since my first download.Um... did I miss something? I still don't know how your group came to Pathfinder. I especially wonder how you managed to convince this Frank person to try it.
Geez, I sound like a Composition teacher! Sorry. But I do still wonder how your group came to Pathfinder.
I was thinking the same thing.
I thought maybe there was going to be some discussion as to how PF or Paizo was bridging the divide of the editions when RaGeR started talking about the edition wars, but then there wasn't anything about that either.
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<< sorry about that, here is the main part of that side note>>
Pathfinder was an easy transition from 3.5 for my group, for the most part. We were playing a group of characters roughly 16th level. I had downloaded the pathfinder rules and scanned through each class, the changes were to my liking, making me feel like I did early in 3.5. I built a group of 6 characters, dark versions of the player characters, but built out of core classes only. The scout was a rogue, the knight a fighter, etc. In a huge side quest, the party chased a group of cultists who were long standing opponents of the party, but had been left behind as the PCs advanced.
The cultists led the party to an ancient temple where a hall of mirrors had been preserved, the PCs ran into the temple, and the closest mirror produced the dark version of the PC. The PCs were then introduced to the class changes from a receiving end. As they slowly wore down the enemies, they began to break the mirrors, freeing their dark duplicates from the cultist controllers.
The double sized group then turned on said cultists quickly cutting through them. The group was then surprised by two enemies, an abomination from deep within the temple and its shadow. Both needed to be defeated simultaneously and once the group figured that out, I gave them the true surprise.
I handed each person their alternate sheet. They defeated the abomination with their real characters and the shadow was defeated by the alternate versions. Within this one combat, they got a view of the pathfinder rules and a direct comparison in a pitched battle.
After this encounter I handed out the classes each had as their secondary character. Everyone downloaded the Beta PDF and began to examine how to rewrite their PCs for the Beta rules. Every player upon seeing the new look at old classes was impressed. To this day the group still refers to the alternates (after the one dual session, the groups were alternated every other session, culminating in a final dual session).
Everyone downloaded the Beta PDF and began to examine how to rewrite their PCs for the Beta rules. Every player upon seeing the new look at old classes was impressed.
Wow.
Even Frank?
Yes, even Frank has fallen in love with the new classes, without even a threat.
Why is it that he hates 3E, but has fallen in love with Pathfinder? I mean, I can CONCEIVE of possible reasons, but I wonder why someone actually did.
Yes, even Frank has fallen in love with the new classes, without even a threat.Why is it that he hates 3E, but has fallen in love with Pathfinder? I mean, I can CONCEIVE of possible reasons, but I wonder why someone actually did.
I would guess that, by and large, early 3e asides from skills simply did not "feel" too much different from 2e for the core classes. Pathfinder definitely has a different feel, one which I can see appealing to "old school" gamers.
Yes, even Frank has fallen in love with the new classes, without even a threat.Everyone downloaded the Beta PDF and began to examine how to rewrite their PCs for the Beta rules. Every player upon seeing the new look at old classes was impressed.Wow.
Even Frank?
Good news is, since PFRPG sold out, Frank doesn't have to worry about buying a new book for a few mouths.