So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5. Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
Iv been told I should give Pathfinder a go. So here are my questions, or what I'm looking for.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
Any constructive help would be greatly appreciated. And thank you in advance.
So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5. Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
Iv been told I should give Pathfinder a go. So here are my questions, or what I'm looking for.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
I personally shifted from 4th edition to pathfinder for this very reason. Now please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start or feed an edition war. It is just that in my personal opinion it is easier to work within the pathfinder rule set and achieve a more role-playing based experience rather than a board-game based one. This is all yet again personal taste and anecdotal evidence.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
I feel Pathfinder can be easily shaped to fit any style of play you wish without drifting too far from the core rules.
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
I would personally recommend the PDF of the core rule book. It is only 9.99$ so if you decide you do not like pathfinder you are only out 10$.
I have pretty much loved all of the addendum books Paizo has put out as well but to just start the Core Rule Book and the free conversion guide should be fine as you will be able to use your old Monster manuals with some tweaking.
Any constructive help would be greatly appreciated. And thank you in advance.
Hope this helps!
So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5. Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
Iv been told I should give Pathfinder a go. So here are my questions, or what I'm looking for.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
Any constructive help would be greatly appreciated. And thank you in advance.
1. I have found Pathfinder to be an excellent system for encouraging role playing, though as the other responder said, that's really a matter that's up to the GM and the players, as almost any decent RPG system should be able to accommodate more than just hack and slash, but it takes a good GM and good players to come up with a decent story and character development. I do find, however, that Pathfinder is an excellent game for facilitating that.
2. It cannot be played solo, it can easily be played PvP with a GM as ref, PvGM would be too weighted on the GM side and so no fun for the P, and I have run a game for just my daughter for years. Interesting thing, I kept asking my daughter to switch to Pathfinder but she insisted on staying with 3.5 and playing "D&D." I finally got sick of things like the ridiculous grappling roles of 3.5 and how difficult it is to allot skill points to high level NPC's in 3.5 so I just switched to Pathfinder rules without telling her (I am running Expedition to Castle Greyhawk). She barely noticed and now doesn't complain at all that we are playing Pathfinder (but I notice how much easier it is).
3. You only need the Core Rule Book to start, but having the Bestiary would help if you're going to run a game (though you could also access monster stats online, though without the great art and flavor text and of course you have to have web access). I think a Beginner Box or something will be coming out this winter. In time for Christmas?
Anyway, I highly recommend Pathfinder. It's not drastically different from 3rd edition, and I think it is a great improvement over 3.5 and getting better all the time due to things like the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Bestiary 2, etc... And the adventure paths are a joy to ride and I would imagine great fun to play through (haven't gotten a chance yet). For my part, I've been using Pathfinder to play through things like Expedition to Greyhawk and Caverns of Thracia from 3.5.
3) There's also the PFSRD, which does have everything you need to play, but its structured with the assumption that you know what you're looking for. For players it's enough I guess, but a GM might still want the PDF, even though it works for him too.
The traditional recommendation for modules when starting with the system is the "B trilogy": Crypt of the Everflame (L 1), Masks of the Living God (L 3), and City of Golden Death (L 5).
As those three modules are set in/on Golarion (the default Pathfinder world setting), you might want to pick up the Inner Sea World Guide for additional flavour/fluff. As with all Pathfinder products, it is also sold as a PDF at a very reasonable price.
Then, if you like the Paizo style, try one of the adventure paths. They are rather varied in subject matter and location, so look around the message boards for help in finding one that suits your group's style of play. They run from L 1 to L 14+ (it differs from AP to AP) and come in six volumes. They also have an associated Map Folio (optional but fun), regional guide (detailing a region or city which is important to the AP), and Player's Guide (very useful).
Good luck!
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1. Nothing in the actual rules encourages roleplay more than any other version of D&D. This will be mostly about your groups attitude and your DM's habits and what he rewards.
2. It can be modded to any size group you like with a little work. It can certainly be used to pit different players against each other, but don't expect a fair fight in any case. Some characters will stomp others in some situations, and get stomped in others.
3. Core Rule Book and Bestiary are all you really need. The Gamemastery Guide may help the DM, and when the players are ready the Advanced Players Guide will be there for new options.
So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5.
Pathfinder is often called 3.75, and not without reason: It is, at its heart, third edition rules (based off 3.5), albeit with many tweaks and improvements.
One of the main things you'll notice is that a lot of classes became a lot more versatile, which means it's easier to create a wider range of characters with the rules. That is helpful for roleplaying because the gap between the rules and what you want for your character is narrower.
Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
While I'm not at all fond of 4e, one thing to remember is that in the end, these things are always up to the players. I do think Pathfinder does a lot more to encourage roleplaying and has lots of rules that aren't just there to increase your attack power against the next "mob", but that doesn't mean that hack'n'slash fanatics won't use the system to do a pure hackfest.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
In my opinion: Yes! In Pathfinder, you can have your cake and eat it, too. Or have your mountain of dead goblins and... I advise you not to eat mountains of dead goblins. You don't know where they've been.
The classes allow more versatility. They're not forced into one "role" and a couple of "builds", and the skill system allows more freedom, too.
And if you're into adventure modules, Pathfinder Adventure Paths (which are written for PFRPG) are second to none.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
PFRPG is meant to be played with a GM and around 4 players. A lot of the games premises are based on the classical set up: A group of adventurers with different strengths and weaknesses work together to overcome challanges, while the GM plays narrator, rules arbitrator and all other characters and creatures in the world.
You can still do "arena style" PvP duels, if you want (I hear a lot of people get a huge kick out of it), or go GvG (group versus group), but I'd guess that such competitions tend to devolve into pure hack'n'slash power gaming, since there is no story except "these guys want to fight each other"
The game can also work with a non-standard number of players - the GM just needs to adjust things to take into account the different number of players.
Having more players is usually easier: You just add extra enemies (or boost existing ones a bit - though that shouldn't be overdone, since you might end up with an enemy nobody can hurt much but who will kill one PC per round).
Less players is a bit harder, since the classical roles might not all be covered. However, a lot of classes can fulfil more than one role, or can dabble in other roles, and with a bit of GM and player preparation, you can play even when you don't have all the classical monster food types.
Beyond, the GM can compensate for the missing companions by being more generous with the character creation guidelines (better dice rolling method or higher purchase point value).
There's also the option of having cohorts that can take on extra roles, and the GM might grant one or more players Leadership as a bonus feat even before level 7. That way, you can play, say, a warrior type and an arcanist and have a cleric cohort to heal and a rogue cohort to take care of traps.
Another alternative is the GMPC (i.e. a player character played by the GM). You need to use caution with this, since the GM might be tempted to build a Mary Sue pet character that is awesome in everything. Better to have a more passive character with a supportive role in combat and not too much of a role in roleplaying situations (though the GMPC is an excellent GM's mouthpiece to give them hints and have an in-game explanation where those insights came from)
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
You can use the PRD to look at the rules if you want - it contains all the rules from the PFRPG line (well, with a bit of a lag), and if you use the PFSRD instead, you're getting stuff faster, as well as a lot of extra stuff from other sources and publishers (and since Paizo makes practically all their stuff Open Content, this is all perfectly legal, before you think these are shady websites).
If you want to shell over money, you need the Core Rulebook for starters. It contains the basic rules for players and GMs. The GM will need the Bestiary for all the nice critters.
Note that the PDF versions of the PFRPG line cost 10 dollars each, which makes them an excellent preview item (plus, PDFs are quite useful)
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I have to fall in line with the "It's the GM not the game system" crowd. Sometimes having a well written module can really aid this though and Pathfinder has loads of this. I recommend looking over the modules and APs for inspiration.
I am running the Carrion Crown AP right now and its a lot of fun. We started about a month ago got two longer than expected sessions done. my PCs tend to go with the story most of the time. It's a mystery/horror adventure and the players dig it. I got one player who sometimes can be a joker so I dubbed him "Scoob" and eventually the others became Fred, Daphne, Velma, and Shaggy. It amazes me how quick we can get back on track though. They tell me its my GM style im able to joke with the best of them but rein it back in. Sorry I dont have many folks to talk about my games other than my PCs.
So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5. Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
Iv been told I should give Pathfinder a go. So here are my questions, or what I'm looking for.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
Pathfinder is holding to the 3.x mentality of a coherent world. There is less disconnect between the rules and what would actually happen then there is in 4E. There is also still a robust skill system with lots of abilities that work of them. It also encourages roleplay with things like traits. And there are a lot more ways to solve problems then hitting them till they stop moving (more robust magic and a wider variety in the way abilities work). Role play is still up to you to provide, but there is much more to the game then combat.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
Solo - no
Pvp - The game is not balanced for this. Different classes would have an inherant superiority. However there is the Conflict Roleplaying game 3rd party supplement which is designed for team vs team combat using pathfinder. I have heard good things about that (never played it myself).Small groups - this works ok with a little extra work and careful planning. There are plenty of classes that mix 'roles' to allow for a complete if weaker party with just 2 players. For instance, a summoner and an inquisitor would have most bases covered even if they cant take on the same challenges as a wizard, fighter, cleric, rogue. You just have to pick the right classes.
Additionally there are lots of options out there for making even easier. For instance in cases where I want more versatility out of my players I allow them to add the 3rd party archetypes from super genius games without trading out class abilities. So a fighter could add a portion of divine magic to his class abilities, or a wizard can add martial abilities, to even out a small party.
So with a little thought, the small party can definately work in pathfinder.
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
Obviously the core rules and the bestiary. These are a must. Then for a new dm, the gammastery guide is an excellent choice. For a lot of old hat dms its a bit redundant (though not completely so), but for new dms its a wealth of advice on things most dms had to learn the hard way.
I would also recommend looking at paizo's adventure path line. For a new dm working from a written campaign can make the initial hurdles ALOT easier. Take a look and see which one strikes your fance (there are now several adventure paths written exclusively for pathfinder as well as a bunch of good ones that came out for 3.5 but where people around here have already done any conversion work you need).
Also by using an adventure path if you run into trouble, or dont understand something you can do to the section of these forums specifically for that Adventure path and ask questions, where people who have run the ap already as well as paizo staff can provide advice.
Any constructive help would be greatly appreciated. And thank you in advance.
You are most welcome, and welcome to pathfinder. My biggest point of advice for someone entering a new game system is dont worry too much about making mistakes. Especially as a new dm, you WILL make mistakes. We all did, we all still do. Let your group know this is going to be a learning process, and reinforce the idea that there will be bumps, but you'll do all you can to make sure they dont get in the way of the fun.
One of the main things you'll notice is that a lot of classes became a lot more versatile, which means it's easier to create a wider range of characters with the rules. That is helpful for roleplaying because the gap between the rules and what you want for your character is narrower.
This,this and so much this.
I have been looking at an archer to possibly replace the druid i am playing.
I can make a monk zen archer, a magus(fighter/mage mix, a ranger, a fighter,an arcane archer (again fighter mage mix), a bard and i am sure there are more choices that i am forgetting.
The best part is that the game is so well balanced that any of these choices are going to give me a great archer with the difference being how many spells i want to cast or not cast.
I can't imagine this being the case back when i started in basic D&D till when i quit in 2nd edition D&D.
Pathfinder is a great system and, from what i have seen, completely blows 4th edition out of the water with ease of play and having a unique feel to it.
4th edition looked like a roleplaying version of World of Warcraft. Why would i want to play a roleplaying version of WoW?
D&D can offer soo much more than that simple computer game.
I have been looking at an archer to possibly replace the druid i am playing.
I can make a monk zen archer, a magus(fighter/mage mix, a ranger, a fighter,an arcane archer (again fighter mage mix), a bard and i am sure there are more choices that i am forgetting.
What I can think of:
Monk (zen archer archetype)Rogue (especially with sniper and maybe scout archetypes)
Ranger
Fighter (maybe with an archetype, but the core fighter can do well enough)
Arcane Archer (Prestige Class that has a specific focus on combining archery with magic)
Eldritch Knight (Prestige Class for fighter/wizards)
Magus (with Myrmidarch archetype)
Paladin (works fine without any archetype, but I think there's a ranged paladin archetype in Ultimate Combat)
Samurai
Cavalier
Ninja
And, if you're willing to go off the beaten path:
Gunslinger (uses firearms, not technically a wizard)
Several psionic classes from the Dreamscarred books, especially marksman or soulknife with so soulbolt archetype, and of course psychic warrior.
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So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5. Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
Iv been told I should give Pathfinder a go. So here are my questions, or what I'm looking for.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
Any constructive help would be greatly appreciated. And thank you in advance.
1) That is more the GM than the game. I have played both and I think 4e is ok. I do find it easier to get invested mentally in Pathfinder.
2) Can't be done solo, you can do it pvp but I really don't recommend it, as it honestly doesn't work well. Now small groups 1 Gm and 2 players can work just find. Their is a few ways to make it work with little to no extra work for the GM.
3) I would start with the core book(you can get the PDF if you are ok with just using a PDF for 10 bucks) or wait a little longer and get the new beginners box set. Which will have everything you need to play the game from level 1-5, including a adventure. I think it comes out next month or is it Oct, I forget now.
If you are familiar with 3.0 DnD it is a lot like it. There is some changes but the core aspect of the game is the same. Melee and caster classes are closer in power, some spells where lowered in power, all classes got a boost in power but the melee's got bigger boosts, some of the rules like grapple etc have been much improved. All and all Pathfinder PRG is a improved version of 3.0/3.5 DnD. So if you liked it you should like Pathfinder.
So I use to play DnD 3ed when I was younger, never moved in to 3.5. Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not. The games tend to revolve around go here kill this, then get gold.
Iv been told I should give Pathfinder a go. So here are my questions, or what I'm looking for.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
2: Can it be played solo, PvP, PvGM or any micro group setting? Or can it be easily modified to work with a micro group ( 2 PC's 1 GM )
3: What should a new player and GM get to dip a toe in. I figure the players guide, (game masters book?) and monster book, but what else would help enrich the first game experience?
Any constructive help would be greatly appreciated. And thank you in advance.
1. That has to do with you DM and your group. I've played every edition since 2e, and you can run your game as hack n' slash or as role-playing heavy as you want.
2. I think both Pathfinder and 4e are equal bad/good for PVP. With 4e PVP above low heroic it's pretty easy for a high-damage character like the ranger to absolutely slaughter another character (or two) on round one. It becomes a race to win initiative. With Pathfinder/3.5e the problem is that at low levels casters are kind of sucky, and at higher levels they can easily end an entire fight right off the bat. IMO if you ban casters, Pathfinder PVP can work OK.
As for playing with a small group, I think probably 4e is significantly better, because all classes have the ability to recover HP between battles thanks to surges.
If you want a small Pathfinder group, be sure to have a healer like the cleric in there.
3. Usually it's best to start any D&D edition or clone with the 3 important pieces: a player's guide, DMG, and bestiary.
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Later I got back in with 4ed, and I'm having fun but its feeling like a hack and slash more often then not.
Quick question is your GM running published scenarios? If so, then maybe a change to PF and its scenarios or Adventure Paths may result in a bit more roleplaying as I am led to believe that 4e WotC scenarios tend to be a bit combat focused.
If however your GM is making up the scenarios himself, then you will likely find PF would feel like a hack and slash just as much.
4e can absolutely do full on roleplaying including action, investigation, exploration and social interaction as well as combat. It has a fairly robust skill system to do it too, with a system that prevents too much dispairty between PCs that some options are just out of the question (e.g. using Stealth in PF because only the Rogue has put ranks into it and the Paladin has a huge Armour Check penalty).
I planned and ran my first 4e campaign like I would any other game system (be it 3.5, FATE, RuneQuest, Doctor Who or Fading Suns) - focus on the characters and the plot and then have the occassional set piece of action or combat.
I had one or two sessions of my 4e campaign that included absolutely no combat, and one session I only threw in a combat because one player likes combat and explicitly asked for it.
Also, some people have mentioned that PF classes can be more versatile than 4e, which is debateable. In 4e anyone can spend a feat or two to be trained in Thievery and Perception and be practically as good as a Rogue in terms of trapfinding - whilst not dimishing their ability to be good at the other stuff their class would imply (this is due to a much condensed skill list and everyone getting general experience of all skills as they adventure; i.e. the half level bonus).
Also, in PF, in fact especially in PF now that Channelling has been introduced, if you want a decent healer in your party your only real option appears to be the Cleric (though I understand if you buy some supplements there may be one or two other stand out healing classes, Oracle of something); whereas with 4e any Leader type class can do that role - in the PHB alone you have an option other than Cleric in the shape of Warlord, and most supplements also contain at least one extra Leader if not more (Eberron Player Guide has Artificer, PHB2 has Bard & Shaman, PHB3 has Ardent and Rune Priest).
So basically its six of one and half dozen of the other - both PF and 4e have some limitations on classes and also some versatility in classes, just potentially in different areas.
1: Is Pathfinder more friendly for the role player who wants a rich story over the mountains of dead goblins? Don't get me wrong I still like mountains of dead goblins.
In terms of system? Not really though a few spells might be of more use outside of combat e.g. Sleep in PF puts people to sleep for minutes, whereas in 4e it will likely only last a few rounds, so using Sleep to sneak a group of prisoners past some bored guards may be more of an option in PF than 4e.
In terms of published adventures, I get the impression PF scenarios would indeed be more encouraging for the roleplayer.
EDIT: If you really want a system that promotes roleplaying you might want to try something like FATE, perhaps Legends of Anglerre for fantasy.