Pathfinder Chronicles: Council of Thieves Map Folio

So, I did the measuring of my Waterdeep maps, and here are the results:

Waterdeep is approximately 4 square miles in size (within city walls only, but not including the City of the Dead). It has a population of 120,000 (as per FR1 Waterdeep & the North and City System).

Therefore, assuming that the entire listed population lives within the city walls, Waterdeep has a population density of 120000/4 = 30,000 people per square mile.

Now, whether that's realistic or not? I have no idea! (As a quick comparison: according to "teh intarwebs", medieval Paris and London had more than 190,000 people/sq mile before the Industrial Revolution!) It is noted in FR1 and the 2e City of Splendors box that much of the city consists of rowhouses/tallhouses (multi-story buildings with shops at ground level and multiple apartments above).

So, I did the measuring of my Waterdeep maps, and here are the results:

Waterdeep is approximately 4 square miles in size (within city walls only, but not including the City of the Dead). It has a population of 120,000 (as per FR1 Waterdeep & the North and City System).

Therefore, assuming that the entire listed population lives within the city walls, Waterdeep has a population density of 120000/4 = 30,000 people per square mile.

Now, whether that's realistic or not? I have no idea! (As a quick comparison: according to "teh intarwebs", medieval Paris and London had more than 190,000 people/sq mile before the Industrial Revolution!) It is noted in FR1 and the 2e City of Splendors box that much of the city consists of rowhouses/tallhouses (multi-story buildings with shops at ground level and multiple apartments above).

This site is a nice resource for population densities in the US in 1990. But according to this page, the world's most densely populated city in modern times (Mumbai, India) has less than 30,000 people per square mile. So it strains my sense of verisimilitude to think a medieval city would be able to be more densely populated without the benefit of 50 story tall skyscrapers and other things that make such population densities possible.

There are 2 589 988.11 m2 per square mile. Apparently Mumbai isn't very crowded.

Personally I like the map in that is Bastards of Erebus. For big city maps I don't find detail all that important. Just give me the rough size and idea how the city is laid out. That's what that map does. I can detail specific streets if needed to fit what I want in a game. The basic one page map gives me a starting point.

Now for small towns and villages a good birds eye view is nice where it details every building because the players could visit any building. In a huge city that doesn't happen so it's trivial and a map such as the Westcrown currently has is more than sufficient.

So it strains my sense of verisimilitude to think a medieval city would be able to be more densely populated without the benefit of 50 story tall skyscrapers and other things that make such population densities possible.

That's what I immediately thought, too, because I went and checked the densities of modern London, Paris, and Manhattan - but the same resources actually discussed that and specifically mentioned that those medieval cities were, in fact, more densely populated than today's modern metropolises.

Interesting... Fact stranger than fiction and all that...

So, I did the measuring of my Waterdeep maps, and here are the results:

Waterdeep is approximately 4 square miles in size (within city walls only, but not including the City of the Dead). It has a population of 120,000 (as per FR1 Waterdeep & the North and City System).

Therefore, assuming that the entire listed population lives within the city walls, Waterdeep has a population density of 120000/4 = 30,000 people per square mile.

Now, whether that's realistic or not? I have no idea! (As a quick comparison: according to "teh intarwebs", medieval Paris and London had more than 190,000 people/sq mile before the Industrial Revolution!) It is noted in FR1 and the 2e City of Splendors box that much of the city consists of rowhouses/tallhouses (multi-story buildings with shops at ground level and multiple apartments above).

Our DM actually measured the buildings on the city map to get the scale right and drew maps of 100+ major and minor buildings of Waterdeep ("named and numbered" shops, temples, mansions, inns, taverns, etc.). And these are all what James (at least I think it was James?) called "exciting" and "interesting", i.e. well-designed building maps that make you want to explore them (and believe me, we certainly have :)).

Doctor Mono wrote:

This would be awesome if the combat maps were large enough for figures. I like having maps to show, but I'd much rather have a map I could lay on the table to use for the Asmodean Knot or Aberian's Folly.

~Joe

I did the math. Doing all the maps in an adventure path at combat-scale, one inch = 5 feet, would result in a 500 page product due to the number of maps and the size of the areas. We'd have to charge, I would guess and at minimum, over $100 bucks for such a product.

Have you thought of doing the most important maps how they're being done now, and then having a pdf with everything drawn to adventure scale? You still have to design it but it cuts out the added printing cost? You could include a download password with the map folio where people who purchased the product would have access to the pdf for free.

Then if a DM needs a map for a setpiece they can simply print it out from the PDF.

Have you thought of doing the most important maps how they're being done now, and then having a pdf with everything drawn to adventure scale? You still have to design it but it cuts out the added printing cost? You could include a download password with the map folio where people who purchased the product would have access to the pdf for free.

I absolutely have. It's not affordable.

Here's why:

The map we did of Korvosa in "Guide to Korvosa" is one of the better maps we've done; it shows every building and is greatly detailed as a "bird's eye view" map. I actually think there might be a little bit TOO many buildings on the map, but it's close enough.

Korvosa is a city with a population of about 17,000. Its map is on a four-panel poster, and thus costs four times what a full page map would cost to make.

Now look at Absalom. That map is NOT a good one to have done this to, even though we tried. The problem is that Absalom is a city of over 300,000. Assuming the same population density as Korvosa, Absalom should be bigger in size than Korvosa. How much bigger? Well... Korvosa's about a square mile in size, while Absalom is about 25 square miles in size.

So in order to do a map of Absalom at the same scale of detail as the map of Korvosa... we would need about 25 4-panel poster maps to pull that off. That's basically a 100-page map, which is also a map that would have cost us (in theory) 100 times as much as the map of Korvosa.

We wouldn't have been able to fit a 100 page map in a 64 page book, really. And we wouldn't have been able to sell a 64 page book for the increased price paying and printing 100 pages of map would have certainly raised the price for (would have probably turned Guide to Absalom, at a rough guess, into a $50.00 or $60.00 book with 64 pages of content and 100 pages of map...)

The only REAL option we have is to keep doing larger city maps the way we did with Absalom (ones that LOOK okay but are really way out of scale for what they look like... go ahead and measure any smaller building or street on that Absalom map to see how ridiculously huge those areas are... hopefully we DIDN'T put a scale on that map to let you do that! :-)), or to experiment with new and different styles of how to do maps.

The map of Westcrown is one of those experiments. It's a city with 110,000 people, so it's only a third as big as Absalom, but it's five times as big as Korvosa. More, considering the city's overall shape.

We have, as I said elsewhere, a birds-eye-view map of Westcrown scheduled for the Council of Thieves map folio, and it looks really cool, but I do still prefer the version we're going to continue running with in the Adventure Path itself.

Check out the upcoming "Cities of Golarion" for more examples of various levels of success with maps for cities of about 25,000 people. I think those maps turned out pretty well, and all are birds-eye style maps... some of them might be a LITTLE off, but we ordered all six of those city maps as poster maps the size of the map of Korvosa so they should be more or less okay, I guess.

EDIT: Of course, releasing a 100-page map of Absalom as a PDF only isn't much of a solution. It just transfers the cost of printing to you, the customer. And it's STILL just as unaffordable to us, since the price for commissioning a map's creation and the time it takes to create doesn't change a bit if we order it for PDF and not for print.

I am such a pathetic map whore i would pay $60 for such a map of a city. So I think the real question is, "How many pathetic map whores are there?"

grasshopper_ea wrote:

Have you thought of doing the most important maps how they're being done now, and then having a pdf with everything drawn to adventure scale? You still have to design it but it cuts out the added printing cost? You could include a download password with the map folio where people who purchased the product would have access to the pdf for free.

I absolutely have. It's not affordable.

Here's why:

The map we did of Korvosa in "Guide to Korvosa" is one of the better maps we've done; it shows every building and is greatly detailed as a "bird's eye view" map. I actually think there might be a little bit TOO many buildings on the map, but it's close enough....

[...]

....The only REAL option we have is to keep doing larger city maps the way we did with Absalom (ones that LOOK okay but are really way out of scale for what they look...

I cut out most of it so the post wouldn't be quite as large. But in that entire reply, I don't see anything about talking about making the adventure-scale maps PDF only as Grasshopper asked.

I've seldom needed printed out maps that weren't to scale of anything while running a game. The page-size maps that are provided in every module are all that is needed.

The actual maps I need in print are the scaled maps that are Player Friendly for specific events in the module or adventure path so I can use the mini's. A specific dragon encounter, or a specific fight in the streets that the module has unique terrain layout that changes tactics, etc.

Why can't they just be PDF only available? All these pages of messages have talked about printing 100+ page folios....

Wouldn't the cost of making Adventure Scale 1" grid maps for selected combat encounters (not every single one) be just the cost to pay your artists to draw them? The print would be non-existant as the GM's would be responsible to print them out.

And I am talking about specific encounters that reflect the APs. There are tons of these great APs out there, each with terrific encounters, why not have PDFs available to download and print that are 1" scale grids? There are similar tilesets that are Game Mastery (Caravan, Caves, Villages, etc.) but these are generic.

Otherwise, the maps printed not-to-scale are fine that are already printed in the adventure books strictly for reference.

The only REAL option we have is to keep doing larger city maps the way we did with Absalom (ones that LOOK okay but are really way out of scale for what they look...

Hopefully you instead just steer clear of these UNBELIEVEABLY HUGELY MASSIVE cities for a nice long while.

I prefer the older school "really big cities are around 30,000 people"... Even FR has only a couple ridiculously massive cities...

Wouldn't the cost of making Adventure Scale 1" grid maps for selected combat encounters (not every single one) be just the cost to pay your artists to draw them?

While it is true that if we did PDF only releases of these maps we could save on the printing costs... Paizo's not really into the PDF-only market. And frankly, the cost to the customer of printing out a 100 page map would be fantastically more than if we paid to print out the maps ourselves... although the fact that hundreds or maybe thousands of customers would split the cost of that printing bill makes it seem less, it's not.

And it's worth pointing out that the printing is something we send out of house to happen. Cutting out the printing stage certainly saves money there... but it doesn't impact the cost of getting the project done from editorial, design, art, and labor at all. We pay our cartographers by the page, and a 100 page version of a big castle drawn at 1 inch = 5 feet scale would thus, under our current rates, cost us 100 times of what it would cost to get that same castle mapped on one page. We could certainly negotiate a new type of payment schedule, but that would also mean that we'd expect the cartographers to produce less detailed maps. Blow up any map to battlemat scale and unless it was done FOR that purpose, it's gonna start to look kind of boring.

Nevermind the fact that the actual SIZE of the files that such projects would be would be prohibitive and not something we'd be able to handle on most of the computers here at work. We'd have to split files into multiple smaller files, and then it would quickly become a nightmare of keeping everything organized.

Frankly, it's a matter of technology and resource management and manpower. Paizo's set up right now to do what it's currently doing, NOT to manage the monthly production of 100 or more pages of maps. Some day that might change, but for now the real-world requirements of doing battlemap-scale maps for every map we do is simply an impossibility.

The best solution remains to capture the map images out of our PDFs and simply resize them yourself. They'll be pixel-riffic, but that's not something we can help with right now. Ask again in a few years when technology's grown and Paizo (hopefully) has more resources.

James Jacobs wrote:

The only REAL option we have is to keep doing larger city maps the way we did with Absalom (ones that LOOK okay but are really way out of scale for what they look...

Hopefully you instead just steer clear of these UNBELIEVEABLY HUGELY MASSIVE cities for a nice long while.

I prefer the older school "really big cities are around 30,000 people"... Even FR has only a couple ridiculously massive cities...

I agree. I'm only one person here at Paizo, though.

THROW YOUR WEIGHT AROUND! TYRANT! IRON FIST! ETC!

*coughcough* Ahem...

While it is true that if we did PDF only releases of these maps we could save on the printing costs... Paizo's not really into the PDF-only market. And frankly, the cost to the customer of printing out a 100 page map would be fantastically more than if we paid to print out the maps ourselves... although the fact that hundreds or maybe thousands of customers would split the cost of that printing bill makes it seem less, it's not.

[...]

Frankly, it's a matter of technology and resource management and manpower. Paizo's set up right now to do what it's currently doing, NOT to manage the monthly production of 100 or more pages of maps. Some day that might change, but for now the real-world requirements of doing battlemap-scale maps for every map we do is simply an...

I understand how the cost of 100 pages worth of full scale maps would be expensive even as a PDF. But that isn't really what I am implying.

I am talking more of the 5x8 tile-set variety. Game Mastery already sells generic Map Packs for about $10-13 that come with 18 5x8 map tiles. I use these for all encounters that do not have an important piece of terrain for them (i.e. a random goblin fight in a street).

However, there are more important battles (i.e. small Dwarven Monastery) that are specific to a particular AP (i.e. #1 Burnt Offerings might have 15-20 important battles that come in a pack of 15-20 downloadable 5x8 tilesets specifically for #1).

The DM's can go out and spend $10-13 dollars on the generic map packs for generic/mundane/random encounters and then they can download and print out the PDF tileset for the AP that is for key encounters.

I understand the cost in production. I'm just talking about the idea of having more tile-sets specific for the APs since many, many other products by Paizo is done specifically for the APs....just in PDF form to lower the cost and make the option more of a possibility than it is now.

But after the costs and time invested it just may not be feasible. Only an idea, not a businessman hah.

Well, we have been linking some of our flip mats to our Adventure Paths and modules here and there, but at that point the logistics of deciding which areas get to be flip mats or map packs can start to get nightmarish. And there's the fact that those products are on different schedules with different timings.

Trust me, we're constantly trying to tinker with the formula to get more battlemat type support, but it's a really complicated and soul-draining set of problems that we can't allow to jeopardize the actual production of Pathifnder. Some day we'll figure something out. I hope.

However, there are more important battles (i.e. small Dwarven Monastery) that are specific to a particular AP (i.e. #1 Burnt Offerings might have 15-20 important battles that come in a pack of 15-20 downloadable 5x8 tilesets specifically for #1).

Most key locations take place in much larger spaces than a 25'x40' rectangle. Using your Burnt Offerings example, the Glassworks, Cathedral of Wrath, Nettlewood/Thisletop would use way more than 20 5x8 tiles if they were all at scale. That's not even taking into account that most GMs are going to also want scale maps of the initial battle in the streets, since they'd be getting everything else. In later adventures which include huge dungeon complexes (Sins of the Saviors, Skeletons of Scarwall, Crown of Fangs, and House of the Beast all come to mind) making scale maps in any divisible size, whether it's 5x8 or 8x11, would simply require too much printing for Paizo or any individual GM who didn't work at a print shop to reasonably handle.

John Pettit wrote:

However, there are more important battles (i.e. small Dwarven Monastery) that are specific to a particular AP (i.e. #1 Burnt Offerings might have 15-20 important battles that come in a pack of 15-20 downloadable 5x8 tilesets specifically for #1).

Most key locations take place in much larger spaces than a 25'x40' rectangle. Using your Burnt Offerings example, the Glassworks, Cathedral of Wrath, Nettlewood/Thisletop would use way more than 20 5x8 tiles if they were all at scale. That's not even taking into account that most GMs are going to also want scale maps of the initial battle in the streets, since they'd be getting everything else. In later adventures which include huge dungeon complexes (Sins of the Saviors, Skeletons of Scarwall, Crown of Fangs, and House of the Beast all come to mind) making scale maps in any divisible size, whether it's 5x8 or 8x11, would simply require too much printing for Paizo or any individual GM who didn't work at a print shop to reasonably handle.

Except that you wouldn't need to do EVERY room in the Glassworks or Thistletop. Not every room is a combat encounter and some areas (like the hedge maze or the house with the goblin in the closet) are easy enough to simulate.

But rooms like the glassfactory floor or the final encounter with Nualia (sp). I ould love to have some of the iconinc battle scenes done as 25mm scale maps. (I'd love them to be grid free, too, but thats my personal preference...my players can think in more than just grid-play and I have a 12" ruler...but thats just me).

Anyway, I think that some of the more interesting encounters would work well as 25mm maps and would increase the buyability of the map packs.

Except that you wouldn't need to do EVERY room in the Glassworks or Thistletop. Not every room is a combat encounter and some areas (like the hedge maze or the house with the goblin in the closet) are easy enough to simulate.

But rooms like the glassfactory floor or the final encounter with Nualia (sp). I ould love to have some of the iconinc battle scenes done as 25mm scale maps. (I'd love them to be grid free, too, but thats my personal preference...my players can think in more than just grid-play and I have a 12" ruler...but thats just me).

Anyway, I think that some of the more interesting encounters would work well as 25mm maps and would increase the buyability of the map packs.

Well... combats aren't always limited to the rooms they start in for one thing... and for another, even if we only did maps of the combat areas, that'd still be far too many maps for us to wrangle.

We're not ignoring requests for these maps... we just Can Not Do Them at the scale folks want without changing the way Paizo runs and without sacrificing quality and product lines elsewhere at this point.

I understand. The only angle I was coming from was the thought of having PDF downloads for them to avoid print cost (which I already stated and got a reply on, thanks). So I could print them.

Most combat can be done using the generic Map Packs, but when you're looking at the cost for a GM to make sure he has all of those, 24 in total at $10-13/box....?

I realize now is not the time for this to be feasible. But perhaps in the future if it does come to where it is, a PDF-only downloadable file(s) of specific encounters would be cool or even a CD.

I know Paizo isn't thrilled about having PDF-only files, and rightfully so.

I'd like to second the request for smaller cities. I like my game environs to be small enough so that the big map of the city can show individual buildings.

On this subject, a couple of more thoughts come to mind if you want cities with larger populations:

1) One reason you had dense cities in preindustrial times is that people literally lived 10 to a room. If buildings are multiple family affairs, I could easily see 50 people living in a building.

2) cities would have large slum areas beyond their walls, where a lot of the population lived. You could probably get away with just detailing what's inside the city walls, then saying that half of the cities residents lived in ramshackle hovels outside.

Has anyone at Paizo given thought to licensing the Ptolus map for a city Adventure Path? This map is available both on vinyl and in PDF form and is of very high quality. You wouldn't need to use the Ptolus book -- I imagine it isn't very compatible with Golarion -- but you'd have an outstanding map.

Ken

Has anyone at Paizo given thought to licensing the Ptolus map for a city Adventure Path? This map is available both on vinyl and in PDF form and is of very high quality. You wouldn't need to use the Ptolus book -- I imagine it isn't very compatible with Golarion -- but you'd have an outstanding map.

We have. Won't happen because that's crossing the streams on branding.

I will be going home to re-examine the map of Ptolus though to see if it does indeed live up to the hype; I have memories of it being a nice map, but that doesn't mean it's a realistic city map. As many of the maps various RPG companies (Paizo included) has produced over the ages of city maps proves...

I have, really, only one question. Over here it's made clear that the Pathfinder Lodge in Council of Thieves is BIG. Is there going to be a map of it in the corresponding map folio? If so, I might just hold running that part of the AP for the folio... even though I don't want to.

Just curious. Keep up the great work!

Nice....this won't be out until all 6 books are out....Lot of good it will do for those running the campaign now.

You might want to collect an entire AP before running it for this reason, among other more important ones.

Nice....this won't be out until all 6 books are out....Lot of good it will do for those running the campaign now.

They can't put out maps before they get them. The folios in the past had maps from all six books, so could not be published until all six books had been finished.

Now, because of folks wanting something different from the folios, we're getting this nifty large maps, but the folios were already in teh queue for when they would be published, plus having to get the art done and in and approved.

All this takes time.

I have, really, only one question. Over here it's made clear that the Pathfinder Lodge in Council of Thieves is BIG. Is there going to be a map of it in the corresponding map folio? If so, I might just hold running that part of the AP for the folio... even though I don't want to.

Just curious. Keep up the great work!

The whole map of the lodge in Council of Thieves appears in that adventure (Pathfinder #27). It will likely be reprinted in the Council of Thieves map folio, but at the same size it appears in the AP.

The whole map of the lodge in Council of Thieves appears in that adventure (Pathfinder #27). It will likely be reprinted in the Council of Thieves map folio, but at the same size it appears in the AP.

Hurm...

Want shiny things and maps that aren't embedded in books. I learned from running Legacy of Fire that constant page flipping to map pages was.. sub-optimal.

I shall discuss this with the Beloved Spouse (Kobold chorus: "We love you!") and make my decision.

On one hand, I am REALLY excited about running the rest of Council of Thieves. On the other, I just added Chronicles to my subs and will probably be getting the map folio ANYWAY.

*ponderthink*

I shall discuss this with the Beloved Spouse (Kobold chorus: "We love you!") and make my decision.

Where find chorus? Is chorus related to Tucker?

Want shiny things and maps that aren't embedded in books. I learned from running Legacy of Fire that constant page flipping to map pages was.. sub-optimal.

That was the original intention for the Map Folios. They're loose leaf pages in a folder, each one reprinting a map from the AP. So you can have a single map page separate from the adventure itself to reference while running a dungeon.

Mikhaila Burnett wrote:

Want shiny things and maps that aren't embedded in books. I learned from running Legacy of Fire that constant page flipping to map pages was.. sub-optimal.

That was the original intention for the Map Folios. They're loose leaf pages in a folder, each one reprinting a map from the AP. So you can have a single map page separate from the adventure itself to reference while running a dungeon.

And we're shifting away from this due to customer demand once we start Kingmaker up; Council of Thieves is the last map folio that'll feature reprints of encounter maps for the foreseeable future.

In ANY event... we simply cannot release the map folios at the start of an AP. Part of how we're able to do an AP is by splitting the work and cost for the whole thing up over six months, and that means that by the time part 1 is in stores, part 6 is not even done being written in some cases. The only way we'd be able to do this is to have all our authors create their maps for the adventures before hand and then stick to those maps when they design their adventures, and that would impose far to many restrictions to developing creativity. Never mind the fact that we don't have the aforementioned time and resources to order that many maps all at once.

yoda8myhead wrote:

Mikhaila Burnett wrote:

Want shiny things and maps that aren't embedded in books. I learned from running Legacy of Fire that constant page flipping to map pages was.. sub-optimal.

That was the original intention for the Map Folios. They're loose leaf pages in a folder, each one reprinting a map from the AP. So you can have a single map page separate from the adventure itself to reference while running a dungeon.

And we're shifting away from this due to customer demand once we start Kingmaker up; Council of Thieves is the last map folio that'll feature reprints of encounter maps for the foreseeable future.

In ANY event... we simply cannot release the map folios at the start of an AP. Part of how we're able to do an AP is by splitting the work and cost for the whole thing up over six months, and that means that by the time part 1 is in stores, part 6 is not even done being written in some cases. The only way we'd be able to do this is to have all our authors create their maps for the adventures before hand and then stick to those maps when they design their adventures, and that would impose far to many restrictions to developing creativity. Never mind the fact that we don't have the aforementioned time and resources to order that many maps all at once.

One could just print the map from AP as needed from the PDF. Definitely a good reason to subscribe to the APs.

I do like the idea of King Maker maps though and I'll probably buy the Cot one too as I'm sucker for nice looking maps.

the sooner the better.
the full city map of Westcrown would be very very helpful right now!

looking forward to it.

I've updated the image and description to match the finished product.

request for this product: it would be nice to have the image layers done properly in adobe so that we can easily export out maps without the secret doors and other map meta data on the image.

manually exporting and hand stitching these images together is a total pain in the ass.

So now that its March, any info on a street date? I am very interested in this as I am running CoT.

So now that its March, any info on a street date? I am very interested in this as I am running CoT.

Our best estimates for arrival in our warehouse can always be found on the Product Schedule page; retail release dates generally trail those dates by two to three weeks.

I am a bit confused as to what is physically in these folios. How would what comes in this folio differ from me just printing out pages from the pdfs I receive as an AP subscriber?

Can someone please explain it to me? Thank you.

I am a bit confused as to what is physically in these folios. How would what comes in this folio differ from me just printing out pages from the pdfs I receive as an AP subscriber?

Can someone please explain it to me? Thank you.

The big thing in the folios is literally that—a big thing. We usually put a poster map or two of key locations into the folio; for the Council of Thieves folio, that's a 8-panel map of the city of Westcrown that's presented in a more "bird's-eye" view style than the more artistic style of the map that ran in the Adventure Path itself. The remainder of the product is reprints of various key maps from the AP itself on loose-leaf high-quality paper.

So... maybe it's just me and my computer but does anyone else notice the Legacy of Fire headers on the pages of the map folio PDF as you scroll through it? I'm using Foxit and it's fine when I stop on a page and the image draws, but as I'm scrolling, before the image/map has rendered I'm seeing a header for the previous AP.

Just weirdness on my end?

I'm not seeing that, but it could be a hidden layer they forgot to delete when they created the document.

Pygon wrote:

Will the poster maps of Westcrown be a different rendering than the style presented in the inside covers of the adventures and the Cheliax companion?

I believe that we'll be doing a poster map of Westcrown that'll be in a different (less experimental, more standard to RPG gaming) style, yes. We'll also be likely to include the more player-friendly version of Westcrown as well. We're still several weeks out from finalizing the contents of this map folio though, so contents are subject to change. I'll post here once I see things in a more final state and let everyone know.

Have to say, I didn't really have a problem with the original map of Westcrown. However, judging by the PDF, the new poster map version of Westcrown looks amazing!

Thanks!

Mike

Now that its out, is it ok to ask for a list of what maps for the CoT AP are in it? Or is that something you can't ask becaust Paizo wants to keep it under wraps?

I like the artwork on the cover, is this what the map/poster looks like?

Either way I'll pick it up. Love getting poster maps.

RM

I like the artwork on the cover, is this what the map/poster looks like?

Either way I'll pick it up. Love getting poster maps.

RM

Yup; the cover art is the poster map.

I'm not seeing any kind of scale on the new poster map (at least in the PDF, haven't gotten my physical copy yet). Was this intentional or am I just blind? If it was intentional, can anyone tell me what the scale should be?

EDIT: Ignore this, I just found the blog post where it said 1 inch = 1 mile. Although actually, that does bring to mind how big it should be on the poster, since that thing is huge.

Our GM that's running CoT for us disliked the Westcrown map in BoE. He ended up coloring the different sections of Westcrown so that he could navigate it better.

My problem with the last map folio that I bought (Runelords) is that they all had numbers on them. As the GM, I can tell from MY maps in the adventures which rooms are which. I don't like my players saying, "Oh, let's go to the numbered buildings because they're the ones that are occupied or have treasure in them".

I guess I am the only one enough of a map whore to pay $60.00

Uh... wow.

I just received the print edition of the folio, and the 'new & improved' (read: vastly superior) poster map of Westcrown is something else. Very nice, and (for me) worth the price of the Map Folio on its own.

And that poster map was way bigger than I expected.