Things to watch for in Kingmaker

After my gaming group finishes up its current scenario, I think I'm going to be on deck to GM this fall, and I'd like to do Kingmaker. There is a lot of really high-quality stuff in this forum, and I've spent a couple weeks reading material here (and contributing a couple ideas of my own).

But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of actually running with the Path, I could use a little advice (in one place).

I've got a couple ideas of my own right off the bat:

1) I plan to let the players know up front that the game will eventually include them as rulers of a realm, and I'll distribute the realm rules (the UCamp version) to the players ahead of time.

2) I want to up the political side of the game a bit. I think their charter will require that they report back to Restov each calendar year. Even if they're not involved, I'd like to give them the flavor of Brevoy politics and potentially develop relationships with Varnhold and Fort Drelev.

3) Per the "Kingdom of Hargulka" thread, I also want Hargulka to feel more like a rival lord (or even a bandit lord) and less like a dungeon-dwelling troll. I've toyed with giving him a chivalrous half-orcish cavalier as a diplomatic face. But what other critters might he have as subjects/helpers? I have this vision of the mighty troll king besieging the PCs' capital with a small army that uses rock-throwing giants in place of siege engines.

4) If kingdom-building begins to feel too much like pen-and-paper Civilization, I'll refocus it on big-picture material that focuses on, say, building towns, conducting foreign relations, and courtly intrigues.

5) And the biggie, I want to foreshadow Nyrissa in a big way. Early on, I think I'm going to set her up as the "Queen of Dreams" or "Lady of Dreams," with various NPC antagonists raving about her (or hinting at her) when they die.

Beyond this ... any thoughts from the group? In particular, what should I watch for as GM? Did players do anything unexpected that I should watch out for? Did any encounters go seriously awry? Did players enjoy the campaign?

1) Yes on the letting them know. I mean "Kingmaker" kinda gives it away don't you think. I would keep the rules away from them, and leak them as you go along. Will feel more natural that way :-)

What is meant by "the UCamp version" of the realm rules?

+1 on Rickmeister's suggestions. That's how I handled my group also.

Redcelt has some great ideas on amping up political intrigue - so I won't
comment - his ideas (which you've probably already read) should suffice.

Hargulka - early on, even before I saw the Hargulka's kingdom thread, I
included a separate tribe of kobolds in a tacked on adventure. These worked
really well as adversaries to the PCs, but also the Sootscales - giving a
new facet to any potential alliance. (Also allowing a greater amount of
different kobold builds in any kingdom army down the track, due to the
different tribe's abilities...)

What should you watch out for as GM?
Well, this AP REALLY benefits from the GM doing a truckload of extra work
to make everything in the world around the PCs feel like they're inhabiting
a world - rather than an adventure path...
This is sandbox - they can, & will, go anywhere...you need to be aware of that.

Good luck.

Andostre - UCamp = The brand new Ultimate Campaign sourcebook. The rules for kingdoms and mass combat are given another pass with some expanded options.

To The OP:

1) watch for random encounters (or hand pick em) because they can swing crazy hard, if your players are not the type to take the hint (to run away) you can accidently end your campaign with these.

2) Watch for opportunities to convert easy combats into roleplay. There are at least a few each book that swing too easy. This is by design to make your players "feel more powerful" and give the illusion that the world is not "leveling with them" and makes the world seem more real. Unfortunately after you do a few of these, your now level 10 players get the idea and tire of combats against level 2 (non?) threats (it won't matter that there are 12 foes when the mobs cant hit and are one hit kills). Keep a few of these for the designed reasons, but look for ways to spin them different if your players are getting bored.

3) Also about book 4 you may want to toss the “hexploration” mode (or at least heavily modify it). My PCs sent out “scouts” to investigate the region, then I would hand them a modified map (with no names except for landmarks), and a few notes from the scouts…like “we saw some hill giants in this hex” or the ominous note from the GM “your expedition to this hex did not return.” This sped up the hexcrawling (which they did enjoy for the first three chapters). They would still check out each hex, but they had some more info as to which hexes were worth their time. You will have to decide how best to present “hidden” locations if you use this idea (I would drop rumors or hints that they would follow up on…this was more fun for them then exploring possibly empty hexes).

4) Since this is THE perfect AP for PCs that want to dabble in Leadership or Crafting, make sure you come up with a few restraints and don’t give your players free reign here. As they will quickly become too powerful and then you will be beefing up each encounter. Just keep an eye on the Wealth By Level (WBL) rules and if they start to get out of whack (like maybe over 25% or so) you may need to adjust things.

5) I would treat the kingdom building rules as a structure to roleplay and not a separate game that the players should try to “win.” I would even let the players know this. If they go at the kingdom building with any amount of serious gamer strategy they will break them. A few of my players were really hoping for a mini-civilization type of game that they could “beat”. The same goes for Mass Combat. Both systems are not meant to be tactical but are “big picture” systems. There are plenty of suggestions on the boards on how to add tactical detail to these if your players want that. Once those few players saw that the Kingdom rules were not really a “game” but a support system, everyone got back to role-playing. And by book 5 we are close to running Kingdom in the background. Every group will of course be different, and the rules are robust enough that you can tweak them to add more detail if they want.

Have a blast! Our group has really enjoyed Kingmaker, just from your first post I see that you are aware of the plot pit falls (Nyrissa really does feel like she comes out of no-where and you do need to make a special effort to plug her in whenever possible…I used dreams too BTW). I would also introduce Maegar Varn and his host in Restov before they set out (at the very least develop ties to Varn so that Book 3 hits with some weight.)

Since this is THE perfect AP for PCs that want to dabble in Leadership or Crafting

Everyone says this, but an alternate way to look at it is that it's the one AP where they don't need to touch either. By the time they'd be thinking about getting the feats, they'll know plenty of NPCs who can help them out, and can commission any items they need. So I've advised my players not to waste feats on Leadership or Crafting.

I'm planning to just give everyone Leadership as a bonus at 7th, to represent their personal retinues.

I'm planning to just give everyone Leadership as a bonus at 7th, to represent their personal retinues.

Ditto. Although, I checked with my players & none of them were thinking of

Plus, it will give them some personal ties to minions within their kingdom...

I'm planning to just give everyone Leadership as a bonus at 7th, to represent their personal retinues.

I did something similar, only I allowed just the followers to be taken for free. To get an actual cohort, you'd need the feat.

2) I want to up the political side of the game a bit. I think their charter will require that they report back to Restov each calendar year. Even if they're not involved, I'd like to give them the flavor of Brevoy politics and potentially develop relationships with Varnhold and Fort Drelev.

Actually, I think it is important to maintain a healthy separation between the upstart kingdom and Brevoy in terms of power structure. The very idea that my players might be 'beholden' the Restov and/or the Surtovans left a sour look on their faces. You can still have the players visit Restov, interact with the other starting nations etc. But it is important to give them a sense of independence and autonomy. It is supposed to be THEIR kingdom, not a land-grab from Brevoy.

Yes but it IS a land grab from Brevoy, one with volative political implications. Paizo opted for a kinder, gentler version where there the players have time to get their feet under them and get a solid foothold with their kingdom before unleashing the hounds. Based on the situation in the game as explained politically, I find it hard to believe the players get to sit in their sandbox and play for an extended period of time without being interrupted, corrupted, manipulated, or coerced.

If you want to have the players left alone politically by Brevoy and neighbors (like Mivon, Pitax, etc), it might make more story sense to have upheaval and other serious events happening in Brevoy, perhaps even leading to a revolution. This would keep the sharks occupied in Brevoy and out of the PCs sandbox. This gives a reasonable story explanation to what otherwise seems to be a metagame decision to keep the PCs kingdom totally separate from Brevoy politics.

Foreshadow Nyrissa a lot. Otherwise Book 6 comes out of left field. Play up the fey element a lot, all through. Take the Stag Lord's ring and give each of the major BBEGs something similar (well, maybe not Vordakai -- but maybe she sent an agent to wake him up?) Have some fey talk about the coming Queen, always in vague terms (they don't know very much either). Plant the Picnic book somewhere (maybe with the Dancing Lady, or in Svetlana's little library of Grimm Tales.)

Have the PCs run into Magnar Varn and Baron Drelev early on (maybe at Rostov, maybe with trade emissaries, maybe foreshadow the Rushlight Tournament a bit more and have the PCs show up to an earlier one a few years later, or at least hear about it.)

Definitely agree on dropping hexcrawls as you get past the midpoint of the campaign. PCs got minions to do that sort of thing. Sometimes they will lose them... try and make that meaningful, or worrisome, or something.

Figure out if your players want to run armies or not. (Mine did, and had bucketloads of fun doing it. I ramped up the system slightly.) If they don't, then come up with something else to do in place of army combat (maybe sabotage missions, maybe getting the PCs up against some portion of the army -- the 3.5 Heroes of Battle book had a lot of possibilities there).

Have some additional stuff prepared. This is a sandbox. PCs will go somewhere else than you expected and do something else. Be prepared for them to take a left turn at any time.

Think of some recurring NPCs who can be antagonists/allies depending on how the PCs react. Kesten Garess, maybe. Gregori, definitely. Add some others, maybe younger sons from Brevoy coming down and throwing their weight around. The Old Beldame has possibilities. A recurring fey villain who always reincarnates back until the PCs figure out how to keep him tied up... see if you can develop foils for one or more of the PCs.

Definitely throw in player focused sidequests based on their backgrounds. There is plenty of room timewise and XP wise to pull this off and resolving old issues in the characters lives could be important if they are going to put down roots and start families,etc.

Thanks for the tips, all.

As far as Brevic politics, I would bring that in depending on what direction the players go. If they seem interested in playing Brevic politics, I'll hit them with Redcelt's game of thrones. Otherwise, I think I'll keep in in the background, but play up their connection to Restov.

The very idea that my players might be 'beholden' the Restov and/or the Surtovans left a sour look on their faces. You can still have the players visit Restov, interact with the other starting nations etc. But it is important to give them a sense of independence and autonomy.

As I paged through the UCamp rules, I saw bits about patrons. While I think my players will want to be independent (and rightfully so), I think it's important to remind them that Restov is their patron. When they decide to break ties with Restov, I want it to be a big deal, whether it gets resolved diplomatically or militarily. Heck, I think it would be fun if their kingdom grows, and they decide to annex Restov itself!

My players were told it was "inadviseable" to continue consorting with Rostland after booklet 3, the Varnhold situation.

After a certain barbarian and his army was defeated (they sent out letters warning everyone in case they would fail), they will get word that Brevoy is in uproar, and the rebellion is underway. This will give them some months/years where they will want to bunker down and up their defenses. I will let them (think they) influence the events, but make their advisors emphasize on their independence. Then book 5 will give them something else to worry about, and by book 6 they will do everything they can to defend the motherland!

Change I will be making to Hargulka in my campaign:

A couple of key GM decisions:

(1) Do you want the mass combat? On the one hand, the players may really want to see armies and warfare. On the other hand, the mass combat rules are shaky, and the players may also realize that armies don't make sense if you have high-level PCs. This leads to a "war" consisting of teleporting assassination raids (and a lot of GM work statting up the targets). It's a good idea to figure out well in advance if mass combat will be a plus or a minus for your game, and don't build armies if it will be a minus, or keep them strictly offstage. You really want to avoid "the players spend a lot on armies and then realize they are stupid" outcomes.

(2) How much should the PCs know about Nyrissa? If they know a lot they may want to go after her too early. I introduced the idea that she had to return "when the stars were right" but my PCs somehow came up with a compelling plan to reach her early anyway. (It is hard to argue with folks who are willing to use the Boneyard as a waypoint.) If they don't know about her #6 will be really jarring as it takes them away from the kingdom theme. I like PC knowledge, but it has to be handled carefully because knowing you have a top-level adversary early on can be very demoralizing.

(3) Who are the political adversaries? Module 1 kind of sets up Brevoy in this role, but I don't think you want an eventual Brevoy/Kingdom war--there is no support for it and also the kingdom rules will not survive a PC annexation of Brevoy; they don't scale up that far. We dealt with this by having the PCs aid in a rebellion in Restov leading to it becoming a Free City. This gives some buffer with Brevoy. A better adversary is Pitax, but then you will want to put in more about Pitax earlier on--module 5 can also come out of left field if not foreshadowed. (And you will want to map Pitax' claimed hexes and so forth, and be aware that while the end of module #5 promises rules for incorporating Pitax into the Kingdom, they do not exist!)

(4) How is the economy going to work? The module version of the Kingdom rules, if the players catch on to how they work, leads to a kingdom with all the BP and gold it could want (and overequipped PCs if they want to go that way). The Ultimate Campaign set is supposed to be better--I haven't seen them. We had to rework the whole thing for our game. I recommend doing a trial run of several years worth of monthly updates before starting the game--either enlisting a player or two to help or doing it yourself. In my opinion the best economic outcomes lead to some spending constraints and occasional worries but not constant crises or collapses (watch out for death spirals involving uprest). Also watch out for the annexation of Varnhold in #3 as it can wreck a weak or unstable economy. It is very discouraging to get a "reward" that turns out to ruin your kingdom.

Kingmaker is more work to run than the average AP but we have found it very rewarding. It's helpful to have a stock of similarly flavored stand-alone modules to fit into it--we had good luck with _Realm of the Fellnight Queen_. You will also need to write stand-alones when the PCs take some tiny element of the setting and run with it (we had kobold politics, werewolf politics--you can borrow the werewolf module from _Carrion Crown_--giant and troll politics, and more faerie politics than you could shake a stick at).

We dealt with this by having the PCs aid in a rebellion in Restov leading to it becoming a Free City. This gives some buffer with Brevoy.

This was always my take on it - that Restov (or possibly a larger chunk of Rostland as a whole) intended not to take sides in any civil war, but use it to declare independence. It makes much more sense for them to seed kingdoms to the south if this is their plan.

In my campaign it's entirely possible that the PCs' Kingdom will end up with Rostland as a vassal state, but that's because I'm planning to run the Return of Choral as my 'book 7', and the prospect of Rostland bending the knee is the only thing likely to make them take on the task.

Also watch out for the annexation of Varnhold in #3 as it can wreck a weak or unstable economy. It is very discouraging to get a "reward" that turns out to ruin your kingdom.

The trick here is to allow some of the claimed hexes to still have usable farmland. A few farms will offset the sudden rise in consumption while still raising the Command DC, making it a difficult but not disastrous undertaking.

2) make yourself some NPC movers-and-shakers among the Brevic, so there is someone for the players to interact with back home. Who's on their side, who's opposed, who can be swayed one way or another.

3) Hargulka as enemy looks really good to me, I am warming that thread up as we speak. Using him to break in the army rules seems like a good thing to do.

5)playing up Nyrissa: I think I'm going to mention her name real soon. I am upping the Dancing Lady to one of her vassals, coming early to start the searching, and to subdue the Narlmarch forest. My PCs are just about to encounter most of the fey in the forest, so I am going to have them be disturbed and bothered by N's agent moving into the forest, and trying to claim their loyalty. Hargulka will be another vassal, of course, but they'll bump into him later.

I am upping the Dancing Lady to one of her vassals, coming early to start the searching, and to subdue the Narlmarch forest.

This.

I am probably doing the same thing tonight. The Lady will have an ancient
prophecy manuscript as artwork on her wall...referring to *insert your
N prophecy here*.
I have a poem & the artwork already printed out. It won't be the only copy
they find, so eventually it should dawn on them that all of these powerful
fey have a copy & it might be worth putting some attention into.

I shall also have parts of the prophecy come true, innocuous things alone,
but as a whole - enough to put the fear of god/s into my PCs. :)

As an aside - I intend for the lonely tower to be the only standing part
on an ancient elven town/city/something. One of my PCs wants to build a
city in the trees & is willing to front up his own money for it, as none
of the others think it's worthwhile. I will be placing a couple of BP worth
of goods, completely unusable to anything except a city in the trees.

I'm planning to just give everyone Leadership as a bonus at 7th, to represent their personal retinues.

Same here, though I bet the cohorts will stay to manage the kingdom for the most part.

Quote:

Also watch out for the annexation of Varnhold in #3 as it can wreck a weak or unstable economy. It is very discouraging to get a "reward" that turns out to ruin your kingdom.

The trick here is to allow some of the claimed hexes to still have usable farmland. A few farms will offset the sudden rise in consumption while still raising the Command DC, making it a difficult but not disastrous undertaking.

Exactly what I did. Their kingdom was going very well, and when they got Varnhold added to their realm, they got the higher dc, with a little increase in consumption. They worked for that land, both their characters and their kingdom. It doesn't feel like a gift, but the people of Varnhold treat them as their saviours (both literal and economical).

I have a poem & the artwork already printed out. It won't be the only copy they find, so eventually it should dawn on them that all of these powerful fey have a copy & it might be worth putting some attention into.

Care to share it? I love using poems, but I'm really bad at writing them. :D

Philip Knowsley wrote:

I have a poem & the artwork already printed out. It won't be the only copy they find, so eventually it should dawn on them that all of these powerful fey have a copy & it might be worth putting some attention into.

Care to share it? I love using poems, but I'm really bad at writing them. :D

What he said.

Sure - I don't mind, but I have to give kudos to whomever I stole it off in
the first place... :) Someone right here on these hallowed boards - whom
I can't name, as I can't remember.
I have changed what they did around a bit to suit - don't we all...

So - in my game, I'll be pushing forwards with the 3 factions of fey. One
of the prophecy conditions is that there will be 4 Queens - oh, & currently
the leader of the PCs kingdom...is a female... :)
We add in N, as well as Mab (or another Winter queen if you don't like
going with someone else's established courts - e.g. Dresden...whom I love,
but don't want his world flavouring mine...). It won't be long before the
PCs hear from friendly fey that there has been another queen created amoungst
the otherwise unaligned fey in Golarion...

So - the Prophecy of Restoration: -

FOUR QUEENS
Four queens where one would suit: Frost, Flame, Emptiness and Pride.
Who will rule the ancients’ fields where first lords once prevailed?
Air and Darkness would wrap the land in cool white blankets,
Forever preserving that which was once locked within.
Light and Magic would unleash the fury of the woodlands,
Green fingers spreading over all in spite of the loss.
Empty Beauty burns for the land bright and glorious,
What forlorn price that which was Stolen?
The Lion always takes pride in its flashing claws,
Still may mend that once sundered, restoring honour to the broken.
Only one may claim the Land, where the queens must war.
What manner of field and forest will at last remain?
Upon it rests that which is wild and raw, or bled for beauty and power,
Those sealed away may once again roam free, a terrible beauty unleashed.
The Lands that were Stolen will be repossessed once more,
But which heads will bow and which will reign supreme?

So - if you need me too I can break down the meanings within - but I'm
sure you can work most of it out...

Sounds like the prophecy I had the priest of Pharasma deliver to the queen IMC. The original is toward the tail end of my Game of Thrones in Brevoy thread. I like what you did with your version though, mine sounded a bit too glib and was probably influenced a bit too much by Leaves of Grass which I was reading at the time. :)

I wish we had more songs, poems, etc posted here. The one about Armag the Twice Born was excellent. Songs, poems, children's tales, and recipes are the little touches that make Game of Thrones so awesome. You know you are writing an epic saga when someone can make a cookbook from your novels, LOL...

Sounds like the prophecy I had the priest of Pharasma deliver to the queen IMC.

In that case - thanks Red...one more thing I've stolen from you & used in

To Rick & Lee - I officially give credit to Red!

Honestly though - you've all been a great help to me, as I guess we all
are to one another in the forums! Gotta luv dat!

It came to me the other day, that not only do I have 3 fey courts, 2 of
whom currently have queens, & a female ruler...but one of the PCs is courting
Holly varn (the Ranger daughter of Maegre)... That PC used to be the ruler,
but was usurped by the current one (Who used to be a PC, but is now an
NPC due to leaving the AP to move to the USA...)...but...

All of that aside - it's possible that Holly could even be the 4th Queen...
I'll have to ponder on it.

Also - thanks for liking what I did to your version... :)
I went on-line found some suitable 'fey themed' pictures & superimposed
these words to create 'pictures' which will be wall hangings in places
the PCs either visit or assault - e.g. the first will, as already mentioned,
be the Dancing Lady's home.
(...whom the PCs are currently thinking is the force behind all these
evil fey things happening...heh heh heh...like cursed magical items...)