The Forgotten God (Table 5)

Game Master Rednal

Handy discussion thread!

All right, let's see... are you sure you want to have ascended via the Starstone? That is a possible route within the game, though I hesitate to approve of any backstory component that includes things like using clairvoyance to study and learn. If it were that easy to learn about the test, plenty of others would have done it by now, and canonically nobody knows what goes on inside. XD There are also a few other options within the game - for example, forming out of the firmament the first time a mortal tried to scientifically learn about the world. You only need to start as a mortal (in your backstory) if you really want to.

Reposting for reference

Astoroth, God of Facts and Information-Gathering
Alignment: True Neutral
Other Titles: The Endless Fount, Holder of Mysteries, The Scholar
Areas of Concern: Knowledge, Secrets, Mysteries, Revelations
Favored Weapon: Improvised Weapons
Holy Symbol: Figure opening a door (Picture)
Sacred Animals: Owl, Elephant
Sacred Color: Blue
Obedience: Learn a piece of new information. Alternately, tell somebody a fact they didn’t know.

Aphorisms
”Ignorance is a curse. Knowledge is the wings that fly us to heaven."
”If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it.”
”Without information, action is useless.”
”Information is power. With it, you can control anyone.”
”Observe, Reflect, Experiment.”
”No matter our wishes, inclinations, or passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
”Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

While I agree that it's unlikely that others haven't tried similar strategies, the lore does state that the test is different for each person. Maybe Astoroth efforts had one slightly different variable that granted him success? Maybe the Starstone modifies its defenses after each successful attempt in order to prevent the same strategy working ever again? Astoroth's success (if we keep the backstory) was rather cheesy, so it's likely that something happened to eliminate it as an option.

I do see where you're coming from, though, and if you have a problem with it, I'll figure something else out. I would very much like him to start as a mortal though, if possible. I like the idea of somebody figuring out the secrets of godhood through trial-and-error. It would also make him a rather controversial deity - on the one hand, he basically gamed the system by exploiting a loophole. On the other, he's proof that persevering and taking your time yields positive results.

It doesn't have to be through the Starstone, though. Maybe he usurped an existing deity and took his/her place in the Pantheon. Maybe he discovered some long-forgotten secret. Maybe he doesn't even remember how he Ascended - that's one of the missing pieces of his memory, and he'll have to rediscover the process to regain his divinity. Quite a few options. :-) Thoughts?

Hmm... what do you think about having started as a disciple of Irori, but eventually breaking away due to a belief of the mind being greater than the body? (As opposed to everything in perfect harmony)

I could see something like creating your own immortality technique - I believe the Alchemist has that somewhere, and you mentioned that as a potential class option - and then delving deeper and deeper into the secrets of the universe with your own power of observation. Eventually, you might've hit on one of the ways for a mortal to ascend and arranged for it to happen.

For the method... mmm... one of the setting components of this game is that mixing enough belief with raw power tends to result in the creation of a deity (or improved power for a current one). Multiple deities have come into existence this way - indeed, it happened in-game at Table 2 - and it would certainly take an incredible intellect to be able to figure out exactly how to make that a process that an individual could benefit from.

What do you think?

I like that idea and can definitely work with it. Alchemists, Wizards, and some Monks get immortality as a possible capstone, and Astoroth has similarities with all three classes. He's also not going to be a physical powerhouse (although he'll be able to hold his own), so breaking from Irori's "enlightenment through physical perfection" philosophy in favor of a more cerebral approach makes sense. I'll write a revised backstory after work (leaving the method of deification up to you), but I'm planning to keep the "forgotten flawed clone" bit as it's a simple way to explain his survival/lack of power. And it's the sort of thing a hyperintelligent Wizard often does, anyway. Martials reach Level 20 by being tough enough to swim through lava. Casters reach Level 20 by being incredibly paranoid and always having a backup plan. :-)

The backup clone plan we can definitely do. XD I'll be waiting for that to be written up, then, and see if there are any final tweaks that need to be made.

Ah, and what are you thinking about for your Mythic choices? Planning on picking up a Legendary Item at all, and if so, when?

Mythic-wise, I honestly have no idea. I was originally planning to go Archmage, but spherecasting kind of negates a lot of the options. Unless we hash out some way for the various path abilities to work with spherecasting, I'll probably end up going Trickster, Guardian, or Champion. Any ideas? I'm still deciding if I want a Legendary Item or not. Maybe an intelligent book that holds all his accumulated knowledge? But I'll have at least one mini-Eidolon, so that may not be the best plan. I'm open to suggestions. :-)

As a general suggestion, I recommend Dual Pathing Champion/X, where X is whatever is most fitting for the rest of your character theme. Indeed, it's what I plan to retrain Iris into once you give the go-ahead, since the test of my build says I'll need access to the Champion tree. XD Hate to give up Inspired Spell - unless I could keep that and not take a Champion ability as a replacement - but having a reliable source of combat power is particularly important in a solo game.

I'm... really not sure how well Spherecasting mixes with Mythic. We might be able to do something like your version of Wild Arcana (which, let's face it, is the only ability anyone on the Archmage path gonna take... XD) being the ability to cast anything from any sphere. We'd still need to see how to make any other powers work, though. It might be easier to focus your mythic powers into your other classes. Speaking of, Mythic Mania's got the "Genius" path, which sounds more than slightly fitting for you. I think we could make that work.

For Legendary Items, there's two options. You could rebuild an existing item (as I did for Iris' staff), or we could hammer out a new item. I'd probably draw on 3.5's Weapons of Legacy book for new stuff, except tossing out all the unnecessary parts (like feat requirements and drawbacks for using them) and generally working to make something you'll be satisfied with throughout the campaign. ^^ It's up to you to decide whether or not you want one, but I can guarantee that it will be a good choice if you do.

I just noticed that Paizo ate my last post here. Rawr. :-( I'll summarize below.

1) I wasn't aware of the Mythic Mania Kickstarter, so you'll have to get me info if you're wanting to use any material from there. After checking out the page, I'm sorry that I missed out. The "Genius" and "Academic" paths have piqued my interest, and the fact that they're including Deep Magic and Dreamscarred Press material makes me very happy. I'll have to pick it up sometime. When does everything come out?

2) Iris' respec is coming up, as you'll most likely be gaining a Level/Mythic Tier after the conclusion of this module. I'm fine with you keeping Inspired Spell, by the way. You've been putting it to very good use thus far, and I think it makes more sense for Iris to have it as opposed to the Champion abilities. Plus, the added versatility will be helpful.

3) I'm still undecided on Legendary Items. Unarmed strike + improvised weapons + unarmored mage rules out quite a few options. Being a spherecaster causes problems with Rods/Wands, and I don't need a spellbook. As of right now, the only thing I can think of would be something like an Intelligent Savant's notebook (insanely-cool and bookkeeping-intensive class from "New Paths Compendium"). I'm definitely open to ideas, though, as Legendary Items are very cool. I just can't really think of anything thematic at the moment.

The current estimated delivery for Mythic Mania is mid/late June. PDFs may be slightly earlier. As a backer, I got access to the beta versions - they may have changed and updated some of that content, of course, and I'll be looking over things again once the final versions are out. I think that puts us on a good timetable for your own advancement - I allow full retraining in this game anyway (because some ideas that work well in your head don't end up working out on the tabletop), so you needn't worry that any choices now will hurt you later on.

As for legendary items, I generally think "If this deity had ONE iconic item associated with them in their myths and legends, what would it be?". Thor's hammer, Hercules' pelt, etc. A notebook would make sense for an intellectual type. I'm picturing a legend along the lines of "Astoroth's notebook is said to contain the collected knowledge of every book ever written - up to and including the Book of the Damned. However, while he's been known to allow mortal followers to borrow individual pages of the tome to aid their studies, such pages can only be deciphered by those they were given to, and no one has ever succeeded in decoding beyond the first chapter without Astoroth's help. Every ten years, the God of Information-Gathering held a festival for the greatest mortal minds in the material plane, and those who came closest to cracking his codes - nobody ever succeeded - were blessed with great knowledge and power. He's never spoken of the true depths of the book's contents, and wiser deities have stopped asking."

I suspect Asmodeus pestered him rather often for peeks. XD He might be one of the few capable of deciphering it, and Astoroth could've charged a lot simply for the opportunity. Probably gave individual pages, rather than the whole book.

*Taps chin* In terms of power... I think it's okay to switch things up a little. For example, when I built Yidhra as a character, I gave her an item with powers similar to Iris' staff (except with an eldritch theme), but they were all in a book instead of a long stick. In the practical sense, she was carrying the real Necronomicon. XD You could do something similar (with preset Vancian spells, even, as those still exist in the setting), or we could build up a custom item. Have it take the place of your Headband item slot, perhaps, despite the appearance of a book, then build it up as a Legacy item you could craft improvements for your mental scores into (so it would have crafted powers, innate powers, and the bonuses from being a Legendary Item - truly an item befitting a deity, but still balanced and appropriate for the campaign because of its growth over time).

We could even take it a step further - your character could have snuck in a method to regain all of his divine power, having planned for even this absurd eventuality, and deciphering its contents is what would restore your divine tier.

I absolutely love this idea. A book containing all knowledge ever! That grants me powers! That has other nice perks, too! And your writeup is perfect. I can totally see Astoroth waking up in his clone body, finding his book, and discovering that pages are missing. Re-ascension could involve tracking them down, reassembling the book, cracking his own code, and redoing the ritual. As a puzzle-lover IRL, that would be an absolute blast. :-)

Unfortunately, I have no clue how to go about creating a custom scaling artifact like that (aside from the blurb in Mythic Adventures). Let's work together to create it. :-) After all, the fluff of the book perfectly covers the one Divine Ability I really wanted - Divine Recall.

I've started plinking away at a build but will need a little while to get all the components together. Triple Gestalt + Mythic is complicated. ;-)

Not quite ALL knowledge, but... most of it. Even Astoroth might've avoided looking too deeply into the parts copying Eldritch tomes, though. XD Enough chaos and madness means something CAN'T be understood, and that seems like the very antithesis of his existence.

Fortunately, there's a much-maligned sourcebook that focuses on creating scaling items. XD The bulk of the book is kind of terrible (because it focused on rather non-optimal examples), but the rules for making your own are pretty good.

The short version is that you pick from a list of abilities, one at each level from 5-20 (separated into three tiers - 5-10, 11-16, and 17-20), prior to which it wouldn't have those powers... though it would still be a Legendary Item, and something you could craft bonuses into. I can easily copy/paste that into a document for you.

That would be awesome. :-) And I completely agree about Astoroth having certain knowledge gaps. Nethys is a good example of why total omniscience is a bad idea. ;-)

I'll see about getting that information to you soon, so you can get a better sense of what the item would be like. For now, I've gotta finish some other stuff. *Coughs* It wouldn't come into play for quite awhile, though, so no huge rush - and yeah, I know how complex this triple-gestalt is, so feel free to take your time.

Sounds like a plan. :-) I'm making pretty good progress with Astoroth's build but still have a long way to go. Mechanically, he's an Advanced Sylph Incanter // Brawler. Next level, he'll start adding levels in Investigator (empiricist) and go Monk of the Empty Hand on the martial side. As he levels up, he'll be jumping between Monk and Brawler (and possibly Fighter) but will stay consistent with the Incanter + Investigator levels.

Spheres Known
Destruction
Divination - specialty
Conjuration (still need to make "Minion")
Telekinesis - took the Finesse talent as well

*Whew* Had to do a lot of manual editing to make it look semi-decent. XD You can access the basic info here. Some abilities aren't applicable to a book, of course, but this should give you a much better sense for what Legacy items are and how the work.

Awesome! I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. I know from experience how much of a pain-in-the-butt the process is.

Based on a quick scan during my lunch break, the process looks pretty straightforward. Pick an Omen (pages rustling as the book flips to a specific page, for example) and then start assigning abilities. One ability per level (starting at Level 5), but I have the option of delaying access to get a more powerful ability a couple levels later. Seems easy enough, and the Incanter follows a similar process with class bonus feats. In addition, I'll get all the Mythic Legendary Item stuff as well. To get full Level 5-20 scaling, I'll need to invest in the Legendary Item ability the times. Is my understanding correct?

It is correct. ^^ You'll probably end up taking Legendary Item three times anyway, so it's not much of a cost - it just seemed like a good substitute for the feats that were originally required.

For the book's Legendary Surge abilities, I'm thinking Concentration and Intelligence-based skill checks would be the most appropriate. Thus, for example, Astoroth could try to search through his book for more information on a given foe when trying to identify their weaknesses, or use a visual cipher as a way of sharpening his focus when he really, really needs to succeed at something.

Concentration and INT-based skill checks makes total sense. For the base item, do we want to do something like a Headband of the Sage or a Spindle of Perfect Knowledge? Are those even an appropriate power scale? As I've said, I really have no clue what I'm doing when it comes to making a custom Legendary Item.

The base item is a book - a slotless magical item. You'll need to hold it in one hand to activate most abilities (Legendary Surge, any magical castings, etc.) once they're unlocked. This book takes the place of your Headband magic item slot (meaning you cannot equip headbands even if you find or purchase them), and currently functions as a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2. Things like ability bonuses are constant so long as the book is in your possession - it doesn't need to be held to get your passive effects, but you could lose those effects if separated from it for an extended period of time.

You can craft abilities into the book as if it were a headband (to improve the stat bonuses and add new effects), provided you meet the normal requirements to do so.

Incidentally, the Archmage mythic path has a great crafting power that works as every feat. Don't take the universal Mythic Crafter ability, 'cuz it's a trap unless you're making very specific mythic items. XD

That should work well. Which also means I need to see if there was a limit to my starting stats. Without the book, I currently have INT 24. Also, what's my starting gold?

Re: Mythic Pathing - I'm planning to go dual-pathed Archmage/Guardian, so that crafting power has definitely caught my eye. ;-)

No starting gold - you didn't have the chance to create a pile of valuables. XD

30 point buy for stats. There's no technical maximum, but I don't advise your stats going beyond 20 to start with. Remember, you'll have to be good at basically everything, and being well-rounded with one or two higher stats is a much better plan than buffing a single stat up particularly high. That tends to create weaknesses in your overall build, which will DEFINITELY come back to bite you.

I'm actually considering dropping Iris' wisdom and putting the points into strength when she retrains, just for better overall balance.

Actually, his array's pretty balanced: 16, 20, 16, 24, 16, 13. CHA is low for flavor purposes (while he understands humor, he never uses it and tends to take things literally - which can be rather off-putting), but his social skills all key off INT due to traits. If it's a problem, I can shuffle stuff around, though.

*Looks over how casting modifier affects SoP* Hmm... I think that's a workable stat array. ^^

Eight Spell Points/day, DC 17. Nothing too crazy. :-) I'm off to bed now but will check in when I can during work as usual.

For the most part, I believe we're waiting on a full set of crunch for final review, after which we can begin. ^^

Astoroth, God of Facts and Information-gathering
Advanced Sylph Incanter 1 //Brawler 1 Archmage/Guardian 1
Alignment: N
Languages: Aquan, Auran, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, Terran

SLA: feather fall 1/day (CL 1)
Mythic Power 5/day (surge +1d6)
Wild Arcana, Sudden Block, Enduring Armor, Legendary Item
9/day Diviner’s Fortune +1
Martial Flexibility 3/day

STR 16
DEX 20
CON 16 (x2 to determine death)
INT 24
WIS 16
CHA 13

Darkvision 60ft
Speed: 30ft
Initiative: +6 (always act in surprise round)
HP: 27 (1d10 + 3 con + 5 mythic) * 1.5
Automatically stabilize
Resist electricity 5

BAB: +1
AC: 23; Touch: 23; Flat-Footed: 18 (+4 armor, +5 dex, +2 natural, +2 divine)
CMB: +4; CMD: 19
Saves: Fortitude +9; Reflex +11; Will +9

Skills (13 per level +1 favored class)
*Acrobatics +9, Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +6, *Escape Artist +9, *Knowledge (arcane, engineering, history, nature, religion) +11, *Linguistics +11, *Perception +7, *Sense Motive +7, *Spellcraft +11, UMD +8

Traits
Student of Philosophy (social)
Pragmatic Activator (magic)
Surprise Weapon (combat)

Alternate Racial Trait: Breeze-Kissed

Feats
Improved Unarmed Strike (brawler bonus)
Extra Magic Talent
Dual Path (mythic tier 1)

Combat
destructive blast (+4 melee touch, +6 ranged touch, 1d6 / x2)
improvised weapon +2
unarmed strike +4 (1d6+3, x2)

Incanter Spheres Known (DC 17, Sphere Points: 7)
Conjuration (“Minion” + Greater Summoning)
Destruction
Divination
Telekinesis (Finesse talent)

Caster Level 1 (+1 divination)
MSB +1; MSD 12; Concentration +8

Still need to create the "Book of All Knowledge" and my conjuration creature, but everything else should be set. I'd love to take the "Cantrips" feat from "Spheres of Power", but burning a feat to get prestidigation is a bit much. Too bad the "Trifler" trait from the Faction Guide is limited to Varisian humans. :-(

Actually, I just remembered that I can make Minion a minor spherecaster himself. If I give him the Illusion and Life spheres, he'll be able to keep me clean and patched up like a good butler should. That way my lack of healing isn't quite as scary. Thoughts?

Minion is just what you're calling the companion? I don't think that's a specific ability. XD Taking the options to make your minion a spherecaster is entirely possible - there are feats for that, I believe - so I see no reason why it wouldn't be practical.

As for the item, give me a few minutes to write up the basic version, and we can add on your other bits (Legendary Item, etc.) to it.

The Book of Truths

This fine tome is bound with delicate gold leaf and covered by leather from the hide of a creature unknown to the material plane. As the personal tome and journal of the god Astoroth, it's said that it contains the collected knowledge of every book ever written - and its name is a subtle hint at the fact that what is "true" in one case may not be true in another, but the god of Information-Gathering seeks to understand all truths and views. Unfortunately, Astoroth's fall from power has locked most of the book's potential away, and it will only respond once he regains his diving might...

Slot: None
CL: 20th (The user uses their Character Level to determine the Caster Level of all effects)
Weight: 2 lbs
Aura: Strong varied

Mythic Powers:
-Legendary Power (2/day)
-Legendary Surge (+1d8 to Concentration and INT-based Skill Checks)
-Mythic Bond (The Books of Truths is bonded to Astoroth)
-??? (Your 1st-tier legendary item choice - alphabetize this list)

Legacy Powers:
-None (Unlocked at 5th Level)

Description: When possessed by a creature that it's bonded to, the Book of Truths provides a variety of bonuses, including both mythic and legacy powers. The bonded creature can no longer equip headbands or benefit from any of their effects or abilities, but the Book of Truths can have abilities and upgrades crafted into it as if it were a headband, and all passive effects will continue to function as long as the book remains in the bonded creature's possession.

The Book of Truths currently provides the effects of:
-Headband of Vast Intelligence +2

---

Note: As a Mythic bonded creature, your Legendary Surge is improved. See its text on an SRD, in Mythic Adventures, or another source for details. The name of the item, of course, is subject to change at your whims. XD (Though I would note that "all written knowledge" isn't quite the same as "all knowledge". The distinction matters when dealing with gods who may be LITERALLY omniscient.)

That's correct: Minion is my companion. He starts with the Magic Companion form, will be taking the Extra Talent feat at least twice, and will serve as my Alfred-esque butler. In a level or two, I plan to take the Lingering Companion talent so he'll stick around all day. He'll have zero offensive combat skills. At some point in the future, I may pick up a second conjured companion with the Shield Bearer form to serve as a meatshield. This second companion is still up-in-the-air. If I'm handling the campaign encounters by my lonesome for the most part, I probably won't bother.

Your Book of Truths write-up is awesome. :-) I'll get it finished up and create an alias later today.

And here it is! :-)

The INT bonus from the Book of Truths has not been calculated into my stats as I don't know if I'll begin the game with it in my possession.

If you start the game with a Legendary Item, you do begin with it in your possession. ^^ Those who pick it up later have to actually find the thing as part of a quest.

What I was referring to was the "must be worn for 24hrs for the bonus to take effect" rule.

Assume it's been with you... rather longer than that. XD It begins fully functional in all ways.

In that case, I believe I'm ready. Also, there are pictures of Astoroth, Minion, and the Book of Truths in the profile. :-)

Ooooone last detail - I need you to format your profile in the same way Iris here has things. ^^ Especially for Special Abilities (which includes all feats and traits except weapon and armor proficiency). Ideally, I won't ever need to look at an outside source to figure out what abilities and effects you have.

If you want to have a second profile in a different format for personal use, that's completely fine by me. ^^ This format is for my sake and to make everything much easier to resolve when I need to reference things.

Not a problem. :-)

No need to keep your vitals in a spoiler tab, either. XD I much prefer to simply glance up, rather than needing to click. Daily abilities can stay hidden if you prefer, though.

Fair Warning: I may try to kill you sooner instead of later so you can experience, from the inside, what that's meant to be like in this game. XD It may help when deciding how to run things for Iris.

Heh. I'll be looking forward to it.

In regards to death, aside from the story-related one, what happens if I die more than once? I vaguely remember you saying there was a system in place, but I can't remember what.

Each time the player dies, they'll be retrieved by Death, who has her own reasons for not wanting them to go meet Pharasma. There will, generally speaking, be some kind of trial, possibly with exp loss (or just delayed leveling) for any mistakes along the way, in order to encourage players to not die if at all possible. XD The first one is a freebie, because it's a plot point, but there's no real sense of challenge if you can come back without losing something.

Unless it seems more interesting to do things another way, of course. Having the player die and then experience an afterlife adventure in their alignment-appropriate plane to earn a resurrection could be interesting, too... XD Having fun is the most important bit.

I agree. Death shouldn't simply be another condition to be cured by expending gold and spells. That's why I've been looking into alternate options. Now I just need to figure out why Death doesn't want forgotten deities to meet Pharasma. Care to share? ;-)

Pharasma could not possibly fail to recognize the fragmented soul of a broken deity if she saw it. Prior to that, deities may notice divine power being used by the character, but they assume some other deity is involved and mostly don't concern themselves with it. It's not like deities picking champions or acting through mortals is uncommon, after all. XD Basically, it's an enforced SEP effect (none of them notice that they're not concerned with it), but it won't work if the player specifically calls attention to themselves and breaks the masquerade... or is examined closely, as Pharasma would do.

At which point one of the most powerful deities in the pantheon would realize that there was a broken deity they didn't recall, whose existence they didn't foresee, getting involved in matters... and news would rapidly spread throughout the pantheon, rendering the player (even resurrected) a target for every deity in opposition to then, most of whom would be delighted to use any amount of power necessary to eliminate a potential threat and/or rival before they can get strong enough to challenge them again.

The deities in this game are neither passive nor stupid, and the player becoming too known before they're ready for that (Level 15-ish) is basically an instant loss condition. Death is discreetly protecting the player from such greater powers until they're ready to face them.

Incidentally, starting the church doesn't cause the player to get noticed unless they start proclaiming themselves in someone else's temple or something. When it's small, other deities just think of it as a run-of-the-mill cult, maybe run by a Starstone hopeful. By the time it gets large enough for them to actually notice all the spells being handed out, the player should be ready to handle things.

On a slightly-related note, it's also the case that whichever character ultimately heads the player's church will be unusual and interesting in their own right, in case you ever need to send along some extra firepower on a mission that's unrealistic for a solo character. For example, Table 1 has Midfoviing, a half-ice dragon Bloodrager/Kineticist, as the probable-leader of Hadran's church, while Table 2 has Fhanys, a Cleric/Kineticist who's busy turning into a completely absurd undead-killer by mixing Channel Smite, Vital Strike, and high-damage flaming swords. XD Neither is quite as powerful as the players they're associated with - they shouldn't steal the show - but having a useful ally isn't a bad idea for when the forces of evil launch an all-out assault or something...

(In other words, feel free to have fun when creating members of the church. XD As in, if there was ever this one awesome-sounding thing you wanted to try and toss into a game as a cameo, go ahead and have fun with it. Games should be enjoyable on both sides of the GM screen!)

What you've said makes sense. That clears up most of my questions about the campaign's storyline (the method of "forgetting" is probably some kind of fiat McGuffin, after all). And regarding powerful NPCs: that's exactly what I had in mind. In fact, Iris will likely be interacting with one very shortly. ;-)

[Mysterious commentary]

That was very enlightening. Thank you for sharing.